Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › The last time the NFL left St. Louis compared to now
- This topic has 27 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 11 months ago by zn.
-
AuthorPosts
-
January 14, 2016 at 5:08 pm #37300DakParticipant
I remember in 1987 when the Big Red left town that I blamed the owner. Why? Because he was an awful owner. I mean, that organization was a joke. Every draft, they’d take an awful late-round player … except they took that player in the first round. The talent was just so bad. And, the owner, Bill Bidwill, asked for help to build a new stadium. It’s hard to convince the public to pay for a horrible product. And, that’s what the local leadership was asked to do. I don’t remember all of the details, but I just know that Bidwill shopped the Cardinals, and turns out Arizona wanted a football team bad enough that they opened up their coffers and welcomed Bidwill with open arms. Years later, after Bill Bidwill died, the team got better. So, Arizona is enjoying some good football. I only know of one person who followed the Cardinals after they left St. Louis. I said, screw that, I rooted against Arizona’s team, and I watched other NFL football games just because I really liked it. San Francisco was on every week back then. I watched the Niners, and (gasp!) they became my team. Why not? I got to see them play every week. They had the best team. I like rooting for somebody. It was never the same as rooting for the home team. I didn’t live and die with the 9ers. I was also a Lakers fan back then. There was no NBA team here, and I loved Magic Johnson. The Lakers were fun to watch. I actually really followed them closely and got to know a lot about the team, even if I was mostly a fan of Magic. It’s easier with basketball, because there’s really only about 6-7 players who make a difference during the game. Football? You have to pay close attention to the team to know what’s going on. Back when the Cardinals left, free agency hadn’t taken off, yet. San Francisco was able to keep all of its talent year after year, and you knew the main players on the team. Nowadays, there is more information out there to learn about teams and players, but it takes some work. Teams change all the time. The NFL Draft is a whole industry unto itself. I can’t just say a team is “my team” without knowing a lot about that team.
So, how does this translate to this loss of the NFL in STL? I know a lot about this team, obviously. I don’t know a lot about any other team. I don’t care about following any other team. I know a lot about this team mainly because I stay connected through this forum, and I listen to sports talk radio on a fairly regular basis. I talk with some other STL fans about the team, too. I didn’t go to a lot of games. I don’t have much extra money to do that — it actually would be selfish of me, as the rest of my family cares little to nothing about the Rams. These sports franchises charge WAAAAAY too much money these days. And, we have many other needs and wants for our family as we continue through this crazy existence here on Earth. I have a different perspective on things these days. I was a teen when the Cardinals left. I’m an adult with many responsibilities these days. And, my eyes are wide open to the realities of this world. I can say, screw it, SK is just like any other rich scumbag, he just happens to be richer than most of those scumbags and just did what he naturally does. Why not just watch the product on the field? Why not just follow the Rams?
And, the thing that keeps coming back to me: This version of me today has the crazy notion that in order to invest my energy and emotions on a team, I need to know that the team also cares about me and its other many supporters. When I write that down, it almost seems silly. But, it’s true that I feel this way. The nomads here obviously wouldn’t feel that way. The connection is different for you. But, for me, there needs to be more of a connection. The St. Louis Cardinals, the baseball organization, obviously does care about its fans. They want to win. They are part of the local community. There is a mutual respect between the organization and the fans. And, that comes from ownership. There were some years that wasn’t true, after the old owner August Busch died, where I kind of slipped away as a Cardinals fan. Became less invested. Gussy’s son was an idiot who didn’t care about the Cardinals. Luckily, a local ownership group stepped up and bought the team from Anheuser-Busch. As a fan, you really are at the mercy of ownership. If they’re good, you’ll likely have a lot of success and the experience will be great. If the owner’s awful, you’ll struggle to stay connected. Or at least, that’s how I feel.
With the Rams, it’s Fisher’s team, really. SK handed over the keys a few years ago, and Fisher tried to turn around one of the worst products in professional sports. No matter what, while the Rams were here, I felt that they were trying. I always looked at SK as an absentee landlord, which is definitely for the better, I think. He lets his guys do their thing. He gives them marching orders and steps back (including hiring Demoff as the P.R. side of the operation). So, I just didn’t have much opinion about the guy. When you find out that he really didn’t want to stay in St. Louis, that he was completely full of shit about caring about this region, and that he has no connection to me, or any other fan for that matter, it’s really hard for me to get past that. The players are the players. They’re gonna do as they’re told. I’m sure some would have rather stayed here, and many are excited about the move to California. But, I don’t have much connection to them now that they’re gone. None of them ever won in St. Louis. Think about that. They lost, year after year. Only Donald, Quinn and Gurley are special. The rest? You could replace any one of them tomorrow, and it wouldn’t make that much difference. And, many of them will be replaced, and through time almost every connection with St. Louis will be gone.
No, I just don’t think I can do it. I just don’t know if it will matter much to me anymore. And, I just don’t know if I can continue to even be a fan of the NFL, because it’s obvious the NFL cares nothing about me, except whether I will open my wallet for them. This time, unlike 1987, I do not think I can watch on Sundays.
January 14, 2016 at 5:21 pm #37302wvParticipantWell, I hear ya. And none of those feelings are
right or wrong — its ‘your truth’ and so its
valid.But let me ask one thing, Dak. You said,
“The St. Louis Cardinals, the baseball organization, obviously does care about its fans”Now, do you honestly think the corporate-pro-baseball
team really ‘cares’ about you the fan?
They make money off of the fans. Thats their
goal — the “organization” i mean. I’m not
talking about this or that individual player
or coach. Each individual on the team has
his or her unique feelings about “the fans.”I just dont think any pro-sports organization
really “cares” about you or me, the fan.
They want one thing — they want you to
give them your money.To the corporate-organization, you are a
“consumer” and they “care” about you
in that context only.Yes? No?
w
vJanuary 14, 2016 at 5:25 pm #37303znModeratorWell I hope you are wrong about dropping out. You would be missed. I get how you feel now, and maybe that will change. It’s not for me to say either way…just expressing what I want, or hope for. I want to hear your voice mixed in with all the others on all things Rams and all things beyond the Rams.
But…I get and respect where you’re coming from. I also appreciate how articulate you are about it.
At least they beat Seattle in Seattle this year. There’s that, anyway.
January 14, 2016 at 5:39 pm #37305DakParticipantWell, I hear ya. And none of those feelings are
right or wrong — its ‘your truth’ and so its
valid.But let me ask one thing, Dak. You said,
“The St. Louis Cardinals, the baseball organization, obviously does care about its fans”Now, do you honestly think the corporate-pro-baseball
team really ‘cares’ about you the fan?
They make money off of the fans. Thats their
goal — the “organization” i mean. I’m not
talking about this or that individual player
or coach. Each individual on the team has
his or her unique feelings about “the fans.”I just dont think any pro-sports organization
really “cares” about you or me, the fan.
They want one thing — they want you to
give them your money.To the corporate-organization, you are a
“consumer” and they “care” about you
in that context only.Yes? No?
w
vI do think they care about the fans, or at least portray that they care about the fans, yes. I can see that they do because of the way that they engage with the community, and how they try to improve their product even though they might not have to in order to make money.
Do you think there are no owners who care about their fans? What about the Rooney family? I think it’s somewhat proportionate to how much the owners themselves care about the success of the team they’re running. If they ARE fans, they act in a way that is good for fans. They’re connected with the fans in a way. Ideally, they are fans and they are knowledgeable about their product. I think Bill Bidwill was probably a football fan, but he was clueless, too, and pretty kooky. I don’t think he had much of a connection with true fans, because I think he was just kind of dumb about football.
I’d say that there are degrees and nuances in all of this. But, it was clear that SK treated his team as a business asset above anything else. You have owners who are like that. You have owners who are true fans. You have a mix of that type of the fan/business guy in some owners.
Now, I know that the St. Louis Cardinals owners aren’t just fans. They also negotiated for public money to build their stadium. They even made noises about moving outside the City to the ‘burbs. But, there was an honest dialogue, and it all turned out more or less about the best you could hope for. And, you’re talking about a sport that has 81-plus home games a year — and for the Cardinals, their success has brought the playoffs almost every year. That team has done more to invest in a successful product through player development as any team, and they don’t have to do all of that: They could probably sell out the stadium if they were just so-so in the win column. It’s not just about bottom line dollars and cents for them. The benefit is they make good money, but they were going to make money with the Cardinals no matter what. So, yeah, some owners care about their fans, I believe.
January 14, 2016 at 5:43 pm #37306DakParticipantWell I hope you are wrong about dropping out. You would be missed. I get how you feel now, and maybe that will change. It’s not for me to say either way…just expressing what I want, or hope for. I want to hear your voice mixed in with all the others on all things Rams and all things beyond the Rams.
But…I get and respect where you’re coming from. I also appreciate how articulate you are about it.
At least they beat Seattle in Seattle this year. There’s that, anyway.
That Seattle game was fun to watch, no doubt. I will miss that. Fisher teams almost always seem to play to their competition.
January 14, 2016 at 5:50 pm #37307DakParticipantAnd, this isn’t just about SK, really, but rather the entire NFL. I don’t think I stated that well enough. Not watching the NFL is due to the way the NFL treated fans in St. Louis. It’s not that I’ve turned just on the Rams. It’s the entire effing league.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Dak.
January 14, 2016 at 5:52 pm #37309wvParticipantI do think they care about the fans, or at least portray that they care about the fans, yes. I can see that they do because of the way that they engage with the community, and how they try to improve their product even though they might not have to in order to make money.
Do you think there are no owners who care about their fans? What about the Rooney family? I think it’s somewhat proportionate to how much the owners themselves care about the success of the team they’re running. If they ARE fans, they act in a way that is good for fans. They’re connected with the fans in a way. Ideally, they are fans and they are knowledgeable about their product. I think Bill Bidwill was probably a football fan, but he was clueless, too, and pretty kooky. I don’t think he had much of a connection with true fans, because I think he was just kind of dumb about football.
I’d say that there are degrees and nuances in all of this. …
Well i knew as soon as i posted that someone was gonna
bring up Rooney 🙂 Art Rooney senior, did seem
to have a strong attachment to Pittsburgh. And his son
seems to share that feeling. So maybe some owners do
actually ‘care’ about the community.But that corporate-structure is always there…underneath
things…like a sleeping dragon 🙂 The corporate-pressure
to make money is always, always, always there. Pushing.
And what happens when the Rooney the III takes over — will
he care as much about Pittsburgh as his elders did?
… The corporate-pressure is always growing…I dunno. What do i know 🙂
For me, I guess i just refuse to ever ‘care’ about a
corporation or a corporate-organization like the NFL.
I will never ever trust a guy like Demoff or Zygmunt or Shaw
or Kronky or Georgia…etc, etc, etc….But then I’m a nomad so i dont have to.
You are connected to a ‘city’ so you have to feel
like the organization ‘cares’. As a nomad, i dont
care if they care. I ‘care’ — about the game, and the
horns, and the internet-friends, and conversation.Anyway life will unfold and I hope you pop
in often Dak. You have been a GREAT poster.
And its been a pleasure and an honor all these
years.w
vJanuary 14, 2016 at 6:00 pm #37310DakParticipantThanks, wv. I might decide to post in the Public House now and again. I don’t know.
Yeah, there’s no guarantee that the next owners of a team won’t screw it all up. I get that. Believe me, these feelings I have, they are somewhat surprising to me.
January 14, 2016 at 6:07 pm #37311AgamemnonParticipantNo doubt, Bidwill was a bad owner, but in those days selling tickets mattered and he wasn’t a rich guy. I think he needed a stadium. So, I never blamed him. He did bring Don Coryell to StL. That is just me. Nobody else has to think that.
A bunch of us got in a van and went to Dallas and New Orleans to see them play, plus old Busch Stadium. I went to the Rams once in StL and the noise, from the loud speakers was so bad, it actually hurt my ears and I am used to loud noise. I thought about buying PSLs before that, but not after. You couldn’t talk to the person next to you.
January 14, 2016 at 6:21 pm #37314wvParticipantNo doubt, Bidwill was a bad owner, but in those days selling tickets mattered and he wasn’t a rich guy. I think he needed a stadium. So, I never blamed him. He did bring Don Coryell to StL. That is just me. Nobody else has to think that.
A bunch of us got in a van and went to Dallas and New Orleans to see them play, plus old Busch Stadium. I went to the Rams once in StL and the noise, from the loud speakers was so bad, it actually hurt my ears and I am used to loud noise. I thought about buying PSLs before that, but not after.
He’s also the guy that fired Don Coryell,
too, right? 🙂w
vJanuary 14, 2016 at 6:24 pm #37315InvaderRamModeratorultimately, it’s about the money. certain owners might feel an “attachment” to the community but only so far as how it affects their profits.
i love the cardinals, but i don’t know that they care about me. why don’t they just move to los angeles like the rams just did? i don’t know. i think a lot of things go into that, but i think the last consideration they have is for the fans. the cardinals i think are actually the most profitable team in baseball right now. or at least in the top 5. part of their identity is intrinsically st. louis. that doesn’t mean they care about the community. only their public image. and damaging their public image means less profits ultimately. there really is no motivation for them to move. i suspect the same goes for the steelers. their identity is pittsburgh. it’s not about the fans. it’s about their identity.
call me jaded, but corporations. billionaires. it’s all about profit. it’s all about expanding territory. it’s not about the community or the fans.
January 14, 2016 at 6:27 pm #37316InvaderRamModeratorJanuary 14, 2016 at 6:31 pm #37318AgamemnonParticipant<span class=”d4pbbc-font-color” style=”color: blue”>No doubt, Bidwill was a bad owner, but in those days selling tickets mattered and he wasn’t a rich guy. I think he needed a stadium. So, I never blamed him. He did bring Don Coryell to StL. That is just me. Nobody else has to think that.</span>
<span class=”d4pbbc-font-color” style=”color: blue”>A bunch of us got in a van and went to Dallas and New Orleans to see them play, plus old Busch Stadium. I went to the Rams once in StL and the noise, from the loud speakers was so bad, it actually hurt my ears and I am used to loud noise. I thought about buying PSLs before that, but not after.</span>
He’s also the guy that fired Don Coryell,
too, right?w
vYeah, there is that. 😉
January 14, 2016 at 6:32 pm #37319InvaderRamModeratorthat’s part of what appeals to the nfl. bringing the rams back to los angeles. there’s a rich tradition the nfl can draw on to establish the rams brand in southern california. the original pro sports franchise. the fearsome foursome. dickerson. youngblood. they’re going to exploit all that to give them the best chance to be profitable there. yeah they want to estabish a bond with their fanbase. with the purpose of lining their pockets with all their money.
January 14, 2016 at 6:42 pm #37320wvParticipant… they’re going to exploit all that to give them the best chance to be profitable there. yeah they want to estabish a bond with their fanbase. with the purpose of lining their pockets with all their money.
Yes. And Demoff will get the team all involved in charities
and civic pride activities and softball games, and the Organization
will preach the mantra of “caring” about the fans of Los Angeles.And so it goes 🙂
w
vJanuary 14, 2016 at 7:20 pm #37328bnwBlockedThe MLB St. Louis Cardinals sponsor in a very large way urban and suburban youth baseball throughout the bistate area among other efforts. Dewitt has been a very engaged with the community owner and is very respectful of an organization steeped in tradition that is the pulse of the region for 8 months of the year for at least 6 generations of St. Louisans and people throughout the midwest. The Cardinals are still relevant despite the lack of a huge pot of local TV money because they excel at what they invented, the minor league farm system. They have always had the largest farm system and player development department and spare no expense to find talent. Finding and signing these days is very different with the easy access to information but their player development is second to none. They show the fans that they respect the fans by their commitment to excellence and their desire to win. The fans respond by supporting the team. The former players generally look back on their time as a Cardinal as the best time they had in baseball. It is a first rate organization. They maintain contact with the team greats after their playing career ends. Every spring you get the same interviews from different prospects brought to spring training about being taken aside by this old guy or that old guy giving tips on how to improve their game. Most of those old guys have their bust in Cooperstown. It usually leaves the rookie in awe when he finds out about the the old guys giving him advice. As an organization the Cardinals almost always do it right and the community support is earned.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
January 14, 2016 at 7:40 pm #37329InvaderRamModeratorthe cardinals are good at baseball. and they’re good at making profits. in fact, they’re better at it than any other team in major league baseball. winning and making money are what the cardinals do. i don’t know that they do right by their community.
one thing i was touched by was what john angelos of the orioles organization did this season when the riots broke out. i thought that was something real.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-bz-john-angelos-riots-20150508-story.html
January 14, 2016 at 7:46 pm #37330wvParticipantthe cardinals are good at baseball. and they’re good at making profits. in fact, they’re better at it than any other team in major league baseball. winning and making money are what the cardinals do. i don’t know that they do right by their community.
one thing i was touched by was what john angelos of the orioles organization did this season when the riots broke out. i thought that was something real.
Speaking only as a corporate-hating-curmudgeon,
and without belaboring the point at all,
I dont give any credit what-so-ever to rich-corporations
who give money to charity. I will spare you
the speech about why… 🙂w
v
“Charity . . . is the opium of the privileged.” ― Chinua Achebe, Anthills of the Savannah“Charity is no substitute for justice withheld.” Saint Augustine
January 15, 2016 at 5:11 am #37343bnwBlockedBitch about the rich that do help. Bitch about the rich that don’t help. Got it. Thanks.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
January 15, 2016 at 6:20 am #37344ZooeyModeratorWell, Dak, I am greatly sorry for your despair, if that’s the right word. I’ve been reading the distress of St. Louis fans this week, and feeling the pain of your pain. We all saw this possibility coming, and now suddenly, here we are. I’ve been more or less silent since the decision because I just know there isn’t really anything that I can say about it. For my own selfish reasons, I wish I had some kind of perspective I could offer that you would find useful, you in particular because we have been through some transformative times together, and I consider you an important friend with commonalities outside the NFL that matter more than the NFL connection. I will miss your presence, and hope you do find yourself on the other board at least, even if you can’t find any interest in the Rams fan part of it.
January 15, 2016 at 8:00 am #37351wvParticipantBitch about the rich that do help. Bitch about the rich that don’t help. Got it. Thanks.
Well, I dont believe in a ‘system’ that
normalizes and allows ‘rich’ and ‘poor’.
So, in a sense, yes, I will always bitch
about that situation. No big thing, bnw,
just a political difference.w
vJanuary 15, 2016 at 8:31 am #37352DakParticipantWell, Dak, I am greatly sorry for your despair, if that’s the right word. I’ve been reading the distress of St. Louis fans this week, and feeling the pain of your pain. We all saw this possibility coming, and now suddenly, here we are. I’ve been more or less silent since the decision because I just know there isn’t really anything that I can say about it. For my own selfish reasons, I wish I had some kind of perspective I could offer that you would find useful, you in particular because we have been through some transformative times together, and I consider you an important friend with commonalities outside the NFL that matter more than the NFL connection. I will miss your presence, and hope you do find yourself on the other board at least, even if you can’t find any interest in the Rams fan part of it.
What makes this even harder for me is that I feel the same way about you and many others who I’ve posted with.
About the STL Cardinals, don’t get me wrong, the owners aren’t humanitarians, really. But, they are good sports franchise owners.
January 15, 2016 at 10:19 am #37359bnwBlockedBitch about the rich that do help. Bitch about the rich that don’t help. Got it. Thanks.
Well, I dont believe in a ‘system’ that
normalizes and allows ‘rich’ and ‘poor’.
So, in a sense, yes, I will always bitch
about that situation. No big thing, bnw,
just a political difference.w
vI didn’t realize we were discussing a system. I thought we were discussing charitable contributions of a pro sports franchise.
About that system that normalizes rich and poor, it has also normalized a substantial middle class which I believe sets it apart from all other systems.
In what system that encompasses hundreds of millions of people are there not the rich and the poor? Or the powerful and the powerless? I consider myself somewhat versed in world history but that answer escapes me.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
January 15, 2016 at 10:34 am #37361znModeratorI consider myself somewhat versed in world history but that answer escapes me.
It;s probably not a real good idea for posters to debate politics in general here. There’s the Public House board for that, where anyone can discuss anything. It doesn’t matter who started it because this isn’t “blame” or admonishment, just policy. In my experience when football threads start to seriously digress into politics and political visions, fewer people post in it. If you want, start a thread about charity, wealth, poverty, and history on the Public House board. I would even pitch in a thought or 2 on that board myself.
January 15, 2016 at 1:58 pm #37379bnwBlockedI’d like a simple answer to my question wherever it is posted.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
January 15, 2016 at 3:31 pm #37383wvParticipantBitch about the rich that do help. Bitch about the rich that don’t help. Got it. Thanks.
Well, I dont believe in a ‘system’ that
normalizes and allows ‘rich’ and ‘poor’.
So, in a sense, yes, I will always bitch
about that situation. No big thing, bnw,
just a political difference.w
vI didn’t realize we were discussing a system. I thought we were discussing charitable contributions of a pro sports franchise.
About that system that normalizes rich and poor, it has also normalized a substantial middle class which I believe sets it apart from all other systems.
In what system that encompasses hundreds of millions of people are there not the rich and the poor? Or the powerful and the powerless? I consider myself somewhat versed in world history but that answer escapes me.
There are plenty of other nations right now,
that have much less inequality and much less a ‘gap’
between rich and poor, and those nations have
higher ‘quality of life’ stats according to
some researchers….blah blah blah…this isnt
the place for politics. If you really want
to discuss the other board is the place.
No big deal. Go rams.w
vJanuary 15, 2016 at 4:10 pm #37386znModeratorThere are plenty of other nations right now,
that have much less inequality and much less a ‘gap’
between rich and poor,I consider myself somewhat versed in world history but that answer escapes me.
It;s probably not a real good idea for posters to debate politics in general here. There’s the Public House board for that, where anyone can discuss anything. It doesn’t matter who started it because this isn’t “blame” or admonishment, just policy. In my experience when football threads start to seriously digress into politics and political visions, fewer people post in it. If you want, start a thread about charity, wealth, poverty, and history on the Public House board. I would even pitch in a thought or 2 on that board myself.
January 15, 2016 at 6:51 pm #37389znModeratorfrom off the net
==
MamaRAMa
I am not an ice hockey fan so I don’t follow the St Louis Blues; however, at last night’s game, Bill Dewitt, the owner of the St Louis Cardinals and Tom Stillman, owner of the St Louis Blues met in the center of the rink for the ceremonial puck drop. Each man was wearing the other’s jersey… in a show of solidarity for St Louis sports. They had some comforting and kind words to say about the city, St Louis sports, and their commitment to both (see? that’s how it’s done, Enos. They didn’t send some high-priced mouthpiece to speak on their behalf. They spoke to the fans themselves). When they were finished, the 20,000 fans in the arena spontaneously began shouting in unison “KROENKE SUCKS!” LOL
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.