That’s lengthy and I’m not sure I understood it all. But I agree with the central point which is no one knows how to handle Trump. Even at the Dems convention Trump was center stage with Biden being held up in contrast with Trump. The way to handle him, IMO, is to forget about him. Take him off the stage and concentrate on the policies that matter to people. Biden being a nice family guy won’t beat the ass hole. But he can beat him on issues. The Dems have to get rid of Tom Perez the DNC head. He simply doesn’t get what Trump is all about. By making Trump the target he does nothing but put the guy on the stage. And that’s a huge mistake because he comes off as being a battler and people love those who battle.

Zooey wrote:

It is demoralizing that this election is even close.

His covid response alone ought to sink him.

But the right wing media has convinced around 30% of Americans that the Democrats are a menace to freedom, and will steal what they have, and give it away to freeloaders while letting our enemies rape our wives and daughters.

Beyond that, Trump has another ~12% support from the other groups W identified…bottomline businessmen, and so on.

He could win.

IMO, it’s too late for the planet anyway. We crossed the Rubicon on climate change two decades ago, and we’re screwed. It would be nice to have quality palliative care on the way out, but it’s probably too late for that now, too. If Trump wins, we get a Fascist American Experience on the way out the cosmic door. The only bright side I see is that the conservative crowd is dying off with increasing rapidity while the millennials and Gen Z are facing the reality of climate catastrophe and rigged economies in a more clear-eyed fashion. It’s too little, too late, but the sea currents are on the side of progressives. Should be a spectacular finish. I guess I hope I get to watch it from a bungalow in Borneo rather than a waterboard in Guantanamo.

I love that whole post. Well maybe not love it. Quite depressing actually. I guess I just agree with it. But for my own sleep, I would like an answer to my questions-why?

Billy_T wrote:

Thanks, ZN.

___

Waterfield, I sent ya an email on a totally unrelated subject. Can’t PM you at the Herd, cuz I was banned a few years ago for telling the truth about the conservative bias of the moderators there at the time. And, again, they didn’t even have the decency to do this by name. They just shut off my posting in the middle of an attempt to say goodbye, cuz I was tired of the oh so selective deletions. As in, I was leaving the Herd for good, and I couldn’t even post that.

Sheesh.

Anyway, I like to think I’ve matured in my online activities enough to not try to rejoin boards that do this. I won’t go back, even if they’d accept me back, etc. etc.

___

As for the above column: Personally, I wouldn’t take advice from Goldberg. He’s the same guy that wrote a book, years ago, trying to pin Fascism on the Left. I encounter that alternative-universe history all the time on other boards. It pretty much didn’t even exist in America until the last couple of decades, moving from the lunatic fringe to the mainstream of the right. The right used to accept the fact that Nazis and Fascists came from their own side of the aisle. Not any more, though. It’s nearing gospel status among Republicans that all of that comes from the left. No evidence to support it. Not one iota. Quite the opposite. But Trump has reconfirmed the idea that evidence isn’t needed when peddling lies. A united front, repetition, repetition, and the projection of confidence — that’s more than enough to keep roughly 40% of the country believing things that don’t exist, never happened, never will happen, etc.

Which leads to the obvious logical inference: The Dems can do the same thing, in a progressive, positive manner. If they would just present a united front, project confidence and strength, stay on the same page, repeat, repeat, repeat, they could pass virtually anything, including the Green New Deal and M4A. Including a living wage, getting rid of ICE, reversing the privatization of our carceral system, etc. etc.

If Trump can manage to sell his non-existent, alternative universe, then the Dems can surely sell an agenda that would literally save countless lives, species, the planet, etc. etc.

It’s not rocket science. It’s smart communication and mass psychology, not to mention moral, ethical and humane.

Hi Billy: Sorry about the PM stuff. I wasn’t even aware this Board had such a feature. Anyway I read a lot of Goldberg since he’s predominant in the L.A.Times and is a “never Trump” republican much like Mike McCarthy on the daily David Axelrod podcast “Hacks on Tap”. Personally, I believe in what he wrote about “militant” progressives. Whether that is an accurate depiction is irrelevant. At this stage any protest that does result in violence simply feeds the Hitler machine and ensures another 4 years of a lack of governance. And make no mistake about it-any BLM protests will have some form of violence that will be covered by the media because that is what Hitler wants. Why even give him that forum? I would hope that what you wrote above could be true but I’m becoming more cynical as I age-a characteristic I’ve always railed against. All those comments I heard from people on our brief trip through the heartland convinced me that, more and more, stupid people are having sex with more stupid people and having more stupid children.

I hope you are doing OK with your medical issues and that they have stabilized Billy.

Zooey wrote:

No violence or destruction since the Feds left Portland.

And…I think this entire argument is going to be eclipsed by what happens next anyway.

Between now and November, each week is going to be an Eternity. And the next thing to come – that is going to wipe out concerns about Portland – is evictions. Business failures. Covid outbreaks in the schools that think science doesn’t matter.

The next 6 months will be worse, and will dwarf what’s happened so far.

I hope your right. And you may well be. I see the main focus by the Trump campaign is now turning to somehow doing what’s necessary to reduce the number of voters especially minority voters. I don’t look forward to any of this.

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

The “RIGHT THING TO DO” for this country and future generations is to get rid of Trump !

Of course. We’re just disagreeing about the idea that we should sacrifice a powerful movement and its peaceful protests just cause Trump tried (and failed) to make an issue out of that small faction of graffiti warriors in Oregon.

And I believe that a “powerful” movement loses it’s power if it ceases to accomplish it’s goal. Rewarding Trump does nothing to further the “movement”. ( I realize you disagree on whether it rewards Trump) Finally, I don’t know how anyone who wasn’t there can say there was only a “small fraction of graffiti warriors”. To say that you either have to have been there or know a trusted person who said that. Other than the tv my only knowledge comes from a Presbyterian minister who I grew up with and who lives in Portland. He said it was “pretty dangerous” and wouldn’t want to have been there. He is a solid Biden supporter and said there were many, many outsiders there who were purely bent on destruction “in the name of protest”. My talk with him didn’t sound like it was a “small faction of graffiti warriors” . Then again while he was there he wasn’t where the destruction was occurring and like you, and I, he most likely got his info from TV. However, my impression was that he knows people who were there-in peaceful protest. No matter what really happened, at its core is the fact that Joe Public sees what is on tv and Trump ties into that.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by waterfield.

The polls I want to see are those in Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. And the question I want the polls to ask is : “right now do you support the protests that you are seeing on tv” (because 99% of those polled only know about the protests from what they see on tv). Those four states are the key. Biden has to win them all.

BTW Trump wouldn’t be making such a deal about the leftist thugs causing violence if he didn’t think it was working. The one thing he does very well is knowing how to get to people’s fears. “Run for the hills. Antifa is coming and their out to get you and your family. Run, I tell you, RUN”

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by waterfield.

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

Before this is over Trump will have convinced the “deplorables” and those on the lower end of the brain stem that only his law and order will prevent those leftist thugs from breaking into your home, stealing your guns, raping your wife, and killing all your kids.

Why even give him that path.

So your message to the few hundred militant protesters in Seattle and Portland is, stop he’s going to take advantage of you.

Another possibility is to support people who get out the message that that little faction is minor, is not a threat to anyone, and trying to take advantage of them is just delusional nonsense.

You have more faith than I do that at least half the voting public will believe that Trump’s law and order tactics are “nonsense”. Your arguing with me as if I don’t think his tactics are nonsense. What I’m arguing is that enough people in this country will buy into it and this coming election has many potholes for Biden and this is one. I don’t think Biden can convince anyone otherwise. The more that protests turn into violence -no matter that its a minority who are violent-the more difficult it will be for Biden. I don’t think those who attempt to burn down federal buildings and small businesses, that people have worked hard for, even have a clue about the impact on Biden. Or if they do-they simply don’t care because for them its burn the whole system down since its rotten.

wv wrote:

zn wrote:

Besides a lot of this is overlooking actual Portland history when it comes to racial issues.

I put this article in the Portland thread and I think it’s a must read if you’re interested in these issues.

ARTICLE: White as hell’: Portland protesters face off with Trump but are they eclipsing Black Lives Matter?
On another night of confrontation with federal agents, activists said their message was in danger of being forgotten

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/26/portland-federal-agents-teargas-protesters-black-lives-matter

THREAD: Portland, Oregon … protests & policing: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-nation-w-leaked-document-on-the-oregon-secret-policing/#post-118620

==============

Well, I’ve read all that, and I’ve read the polls and none of it is persuasive.

I think its very fluid right now. We dont really know for Sure, what all those white middle-class people in Swing States think of this stuff.

The ‘fluidity’ of it all makes me nervous. What if those Federal Storm-Troopers piss off some wacko-teen-‘leftist’ who then goes out and blows up a building. Ya know. The Law And Order thing is Trumps best chance. Now, it ‘looks like’ maybe he overplayed his hand. But…its fluid.

So, Waterfield and wv, will continue to bite our nails.

w
v

Trump’s campaign has 63,000 law and order adds in the month of July alone. These people are not stupid when it comes to reading the American voters. So yes I will continue to bite my nails.

zn wrote:

wv wrote:

I dunno zn. I dunno. I am not sure why you are so confident the Portland thing will tilt against Mr. Law And Order.

w
v

I’m saying it DID. It DID tilt against him.

But memory is short and so maybe that dissipates.

I think the NAACP might disagree with you. Here is a quote from the Guardian”

“The NAACP in Portland warned that the Black Lives Matter movement was being co-opted by “privileged white people” pursuing other agendas, such as anti-capitalism. It said they were playing into Trumps hands by provoking nightly confrontations with the federal forces”.

zn wrote:

(W, we have to include links when we post articles. I put one in this time via edit.)

On the article. First off this idea that there are “riots” at crisis level in the USA is completely counterfactual nonsense.

There have been BLM protests in more than 700 towns and cities, many of them multiple times, with basically a few thousand protests. Pollsters have said there were anywhere from 15 M to 26 M people who participated. The vast majority of those were peaceful. And I mean the really BIG “vast.”

Calling all protests “riots” is bs. And acting like there’s this big national problem on “the streets” is hyperbolic nonsense.

Secondly the situation in Portland was this–a couple of square blocks downtown saw clashes between a few hundred dedicated militants and police. The damage? Graffiti. All through the rest of Portland peaceful protests continued. When the Feds came in, it escalated the situation, which led to more people, including groups like the Portland Moms, going there to protest the presence of the Feds.

Polls show the Feds being in Portland worked against Trump so as of today he is withdrawing them.

The point is this is what the public is seeing. I fully understand that it isn’t what the reality is. Nevertheless it fits exactly what Trump wants the public to see and think. With the Feds leaving it also fits his scheme: “see this is how to gain control” of a bunch of leftist thugs”. No one can argue what is happening in Portland helps Biden.

wv wrote:

Yeah, it sucks. Its like you know there is a minefield there, and they cant see it. But they want you to walk through it. Cause they dont have the knowledge.

Knowledge-differences, often lead to this kind of situation.

Ah well.

w
v
=============

Six people in South Carolina have died from coronavirus after attending the same funeral.

The funeral was held in Columbia in the first week of March and many who attended are now in quarantine, The State reported.

“They attended that same funeral and unfortunately passed away from Covid,” Sumpter County coroner Robbie Baker said.

“They came back to Sumter, got sick, and I was notified they had passed. Unfortunately, a large amount of people congregated at that funeral, somebody there was infected with it, spread it, and just didn’t know it.”

A husband and wife who died days apart are among those who were infected while attending the funeral. The couple had been married for 50 years….
link:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-south-carolina-deaths-cases-funeral-a9471541.html

Yeah-we’ve decided not to go unless circumstances drastically change which I don’t think they will. I wanted to send the party’s host the article you cited but Barb said “don’t do it. You won’t change anything and will make her feel bad and that will cause them to be more upset with you”