Mackeyser wrote:

I dunno if there’s a single voice that evokes more emotion for me than Judy Garland

I have one of those. Eva Cassidy’s rendition of Sting’s “Fields of Gold”. She was a relative unknown American singer who sang mostly in N.Y clubs. Sting himself said her singing that song was more powerful and better than his version. What is particularly moving is the fact that when she recorded the song she knew she was dying of cancer. The perfect song given the circumstances. I cannot get through it without breaking down.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=song+fields+of+gold+sung+by+eva+cassidy&view=detail&mid=8136F67BDCB692F29A3E8136F67BDCB692F29A3E&FORM=VIRE0&PC=DCTS&cc=US&setlang=en-US&PC=DCTS&cvid=e6f5163d94fd49fca246018033673853&qs=RI&nclid=5DC49A4820DB81747E48420CE0255F8E&ts=1602365567713

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by waterfield.

wv wrote:

I was pondering the old conundrum last night about why so many people vote for the GOP, counter to their own interests. And I was thinking that part of it is that those voters, like Trump supporters, are really low information voters, ya know. Nothing new there. But that doesn’t answer the question. They’re low information either way, so how does the GOP get their allegiance?

“I was pondering the old conundrum last night about why so many people vote for the GOP, counter to their own interests. And I was thinking that part of it is that those voters, like Trump supporters, are really low information voters, ya know. Nothing new there. But that doesn’t answer the question. They’re low information either way, so how does the GOP get their allegiance?”

Personally, I think that the changing demographics is the engine driving their allegiance. White folks-in the GOP-look at how fast “their country” is changing. Color wise, information technology, gay rights, career changes, women advancements, population increases, etc-“it ain’t what it used to be”. We remember how good things used to be. Computers baffle us-especially when they breakdown-, smart tvs, smart phones, blah blah. Life just seemed to be much simpler and far less stressful. White males especially, 50 plus, yearn for those simple days. Probably due to my age I admit to some of that. I’ve come to hate technology. I tell my wife often when our tv remote breaks down: “I remember when you could walk up to the tv and change the channel with your hand, and I got as much information then as I do today. “. That’s when she gets up and leaves -after throwing the remote at me.

Anyway, the GOP understands all that and taps into it while the democrats engulf it. IMO GOP voters are intentionally stuck in the sand and either want to go back or at least slow the forward movement down as much as they can. When you add to that malaise the racists, truly ignorant, evangelicals, and wealthy business and corporation owners who want nothing more than getting rid of regulations so they can profit more-well there you have the GOP. I suppose you can add to that Nazis who want to take over the country and now I have to take a nap.

Zooey wrote:

waterfield wrote:

Personally I think you might be wrong on your “rejection” theory. I don’t think progressive values were rejected in the primaries. Rather it was more a fear of Trump winning again if Sanders was the nominee. There is clearly a future for progressives in the Democratic party and for those voters who went to the poles and voted for Biden over Sanders. And that future is likely to be nearer than you think. With some exceptions (racists, etc) progressive values and policies appeal to the same people that Trump caters to. The “system” has not done them right and they want radical changes-whatever they might be.

That never crossed my mind, but you may be right about that. I remember hearing, both in recorded interviews with voters, and in print that a lot of people were saying that they basically liked Bernie’s positions better, but were worried he wouldn’t win, and just saw Biden as more “electable.”

So if you are right, what people pushing for more progressive action need is not to win more people to their positions, but to convince more people that their positions are “winnable.”

That may be, actually. Dunno.

I am certain about this. If Biden beats Trump the political move will be to the left and more progressives will become in power. If Trump wins the progressive movement will be pushed back even more especially if the economy rebounds. The analogy is that under Biden progressives will be like swimmer drowning but being able to reach the surface and finally surface and have room to breath. With Trump those same progressives will be trying as hard to reach the surface but unable to. Progressives should not be depressed if Biden wins. On the contrary it will allow them the freedom to breath life into their views.

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

wv wrote:

===============

Well, its very tempting for leftists like us, to think the best strategy for HIM would be to lean left. But is that really accurate? I am not convinced.

I keep thinking about the senate: 99-1.

If i were a corporate-dem, why in the hell would i trust the folks who got the “1” elected, instead of the folks that got the 99 elected.

Sure the polls say, 60 or 70 percent of folks want M4A etc. But they dont VOTE that way do they. I mean even in a DEM primary, Biden beat Bernie. Straight up. Liberals/Dems had a choice — and they chose AGAINST the leftist.

So why would Biden lean left? If i were his evil-political-adviser I’d tell Biden to do just what he’s doing. Be bland, and lean towards Right-Center. The DNC strategy.

I hate it. But it is what it is.

w
v

I was pondering the old conundrum last night about why so many people vote for the GOP, counter to their own interests. And I was thinking that part of it is that those voters, like Trump supporters, are really low information voters, ya know. Nothing new there. But that doesn’t answer the question. They’re low information either way, so how does the GOP get their allegiance?

And then I thought, well, the GOP appeals to their core…values/lifestyle/myths…whatever. A lot of these people just wanna go to work, have a beer with friends, watch UFC, go to church, shoot some birds, ride their motorbikes, raft the river, whatever. No time to watch BS on the news, or read Atlantic Monthly. It’s not their thing. Life is immediate and local. So the GOP just taps into their gut instincts, their biases, their prejudices, and does so without fearing that they, as governors, will ever be inspected for their actions. These people aren’t following the budgets, or the political movements that swirl in Yemen. The GOP goes straight for the Id, and sometimes the Ego.

Democrats, OTOH, want to REASON with these people. Educate them on how their policies are better for them, and they are amazed when nobody bites that bait.

So…I start wondering WHY the Liberals/Left don’t go for the Id appeals as well. I mean…why not?

And I think that it’s because the Left and Right see other people differently. I am considering that maybe the Right actually has an advantage because they think of the masses as a commodity. People are widgets. They are just a different category of Materials necessary to conduct business on the one hand, and potential consumers of services and products on the other hand. They don’t care about the “human” aspects of their lives whatsoever. They are just there like clay, or steel, or tariffs, or tax breaks…just Things that need to be manipulated to their advantage. Appealing to their Id is just an efficient way to do that.

Liberals and the Left give them a little more credit than that. They see them as people with human concerns. But they see them as uneducated and, frankly, sometimes stupid. They are raw humans, Uncultivated Humans. So they/we are driven to try to appeal to them through a variety of “Don’t you see that THIS is in your best interest, and THAT is not?” kind of things, and then get frustrated when they turn the channel to The Masked Singer. Ultimately, I think that Liberals tend to look DOWN on the masses because they are FAILING TO GRASP THINGS. And the Left tends to be condescending to everybody, including Liberals, and even other Leftists.

Well…they HATE being condescended to. Everybody hates being condescended to. And here is where the Right has an advantage. They aren’t condescending to these people because they don’t place any human value on them in the first place. Nobody gets condescending to a horse because it’s a fucking horse. You harness it, and put it to use. So the Right can saddle up the masses partly because they don’t expect anything from them except their direct service. The left wants to…you know…SAVE them. Make their lives better. And when they don’t cooperate, well, it’s because they are Deplorable. They’re morons. They’re backwoods hicks and rubes and yokels.

So the GOP can bang the identity drums, and the people will march because they hear the drumming, and they feel welcomed.

The Democrats are hamstrung because they are trying to herd cats with shit like “Build Back Better,” whatever the fuck THAT is supposed to mean. And the Democrats don’t really have anything to offer because they aren’t committed to running on anything that will actually change lives. So it’s easy for the GOP to paint them as the party of giving away crap to OTHER people. And that’s totally believable because they certainly aren’t giving anything to ME. To US. To anybody in MY neighborhood. They’re trying to appeal to the masses without offering them a vision of anything other than Hope and Change and Harmony on the one hand, and a tall stack of Policy Papers on the other. Those just aren’t drumbeats that get them very far.

Biden is running as a Rorschach Test. He is largely a vacuum with an invitation to everybody to believe he is whatever they want him to be.

=========

All food for thought, for sure. There’s a lot there to unpack.

But what I think about all the fucking time — i cant let it go — is: Biden VS Bernie.

No republicans involved. None of their games came into play. This was totally a Dem Vote. And the Democrats rejected the Left. Just flat out rejected it. Democrats did that.

And sure, we all know that the powers-that-be did everything they could to get the Democrats to vote for Biden. All the usual shit. But Bernie’s message was out there. He’d been around for five years. People knew his message. The corporate media may have been tilted against him but people knew he was for an increase in Minimum Wage, free college, and M4A. And the DEMOCRAT voters rejected it. The Rep-thugs didnt even get in the game. The DEMOCRAT VOTERS rejected. Not the elites. The Dem VOTERS.

And while thinking about ‘that’ lovely dynamic, lets widen the perspective to include all the other Senate/Congressional Elections over the last fifty years. How many times have the DEMS (and Reps) rejected leftwingers? Almost Every fucking time. So, its not just something about Bernie.

Pretty dark picture. Why do i bring it up? I think its because I’ve spent time in the Left-twitter-bubble the last two days, and I am surprised at how often leftists FAIL to absorb and reflect on the awful historical facts. We are a small group. We are not a large uprising. We are not a great and powerful movement.

99-1.
The DEM voters freely and knowingly and willingly chose Biden over Bernie.

w
v

Not sure your right on your “rejection” theory. I don’t think that was about not agreeing with the policies advanced by Sanders as much as a fear that Trump would win if Sanders was the nominee. I believe there is clearly a future for progressive policies and values in the Democratic party. And that could be nearer than you think.

Zooey wrote:

The drugs he is taking are a bad sign, a sign of desperation, or something close to that. You don’t use the POTUS as a lab rat. OTOH, it is not out of the realm of possibility that Trump ordered it because he’s the kind of guy who would go against medical advice and demand he gets his way. So who knows?

Then…there is the fact that the info coming out from the WH and the Drs and every reliable anonymous source is conflicting.

There is also the fact that the photos and video are also sketchy. OTHO, no matter what happens here, people are going to be accusing every single fucking thing of being sketchy, one way or another.

I don’t know. I think he has it, and I think it’s serious, all the other crap aside.

I am deeply ambivalent (is that a thing? can a person be “deeply” ambivalent?) about all this. The literature major in me wants the guy to come out of Walter Reed in a box because the poetic justice burrito with extra irony on the side is just fantastic. I mean…who had all the Bag Guys dying in the 2020 Season Finale? I did not see this coming. Especially after all the foreshadowing that led me to expect it to happen in April/May. And then nothing. A few false leads with Paul and Gaetz. Then several episodes later, Herman Cain dies, but nobody remembers who he is, so it gets a couple of sassy tweets, and that’s it.

But now, suddenly, the GOP opens the Ark of the Covenant in the Rose Garden, and Nazi faces start melting all over the place.

There is also the possibility that Trump’s death would derail the Proud Boy Express. One of my apprehensions heading into the next two months is that Trump idiotically incites violence at the polls and afterwards. After the debate, these guys are talking proudly about how they are standing by, and just waiting for the word to cut loose on protesters. If he’s not around to make that call, chances are they don’t massacre a crowd of people.

OTOH, Trump has a chance to become a martyr here. Like…you know…Jesus. People would be singing his praises a generation from now as he becomes a symbolic rallying point. Will they go out and commit violence anyway? Seems like they’ve come out of the woodwork a little too far now to be able to slink back into it.

Then there is the part of me that wants the much calmer, if less dramatic story line. Trump recovers, gets completely repudiated at the polls, cannot contest the results because there’s just no fucking hope, and he leaves office in January only to get served by SDNY, get convicted, and spend the rest of his life penniless, behind bars, as his kids all go to separate prisons, and the government seizes all his properties to pay his tax bills. I think, on the whole, I like this story line better…but I just have a hard time picturing someone that powerful ever getting the hammer.

Whatever… The next two months are going to make us forget about the first nine, I think.

There is a more simple storyline. He survives, loses the election, and goes back to his real estate business-and oh yeah screwing people.

zn wrote:

wv wrote:

The main problem I (as a leftist) have with them is this — Yes, they are right to point out that Race does not explain the Facts/Stats.
Plenty of POOR-whites are killed by police.
And yes, plenty of POOR-blacks kill other POOR-blacks. Many more than the Cops are killing.

These are all excuses the racists use, so they can argue that there’s no racism.

If you are black you have a statistically greater chance of being stopped, searched, arrested, held, tried, and convicted. And you then get a longer sentence. That’s if you don’t get killed in the first place.

A very good example is drugs. The percentage of whites and the percentage of blacks who do any kind of illegal drugs is about equal. But you are far more likely to be pulled over and searched for drugs if you are black.

And poor whites kill poor whites. Killing tends to happen in the neighborhood.

What stats don’t say about the so-called black on black crime thing is that the percentage of violent crime in areas economically defined by poverty are always high, regardless of race.

Which gets us back to WV’s point about why is there poverty. The centrist, conservative, and racist answers are all the same. They did it to themselves.

….

“Which gets us back to WV’s point about why is there poverty. The centrist, conservative, and racist answers are all the same. They did it to themselves.”

That’s right only progressives know what causes poverty. BTW: I resent being put in the same group as “racists”. I have never once wrote or said that people in poverty “did it to themselves”. There are so many reasons whey poverty exists not only in this country but across the world. There are many “racists” in this country who are in poverty and would argue they did not do it too themselves. There are many “conservatives” in this country who are in poverty and will deny they did it to themselves. There are progressives, centrists, liberals, in poverty who deny the notion that they did it to themselves. Your lumping of “centrist, conservatives, and racists” into the same -“they did it to themselves”-bag
speaks more to your own progressive bias than anything.

joemad wrote:

We can’t breath in California… .. it’s surreal… air quality in San Jose has been very unhealthy for over a month.

Last weekend it was 109 in San Jose… luckily the coastal fog has rolled in to cool things down… but it camouflages the “smoke smell” thus, the bad air quality is still very much in the air… We have ashes to wipe down everyday from forest fires that are miles away.

This is much worse than the Paradise Fire from last year…

I’m beginning to feel sick from all of this shitty air…and I consider myself a healthy person…

The fog is extremely important. It’s caused by the variation between the surface air temperature and the sea temperature. As the oceans continue to warm this variance is less and less. Over the last 20 years we have seen less and less foggy days which of course means we are seeing warmer and warmer days along the coast. I recall growing up seeing several foggy and low overcast days along the coast. Now-very, very infrequent. Ocean surface IS getting warmer.

zn wrote:

from The Police Are Lying in LA and the Media Is Falling for It—Again
In the wake of the brutal shooting of two police officers, the sheriff’s department is trying to fabricate a case against Black Lives Matter, and journalists are playing along.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/la-shooting-police-lies/

…

Skepticism of police statements should be a basic requirement of competent journalism, but it is particularly critical in times like this, when police have a reason to lie. The police are angry at the attempted murder of two officers, and they want other people to be angry, so they are not even trying to provide an accurate account of events. Instead, they are trying to build a case against Black Lives Matter.

Los Angeles County Sheriff Alex Villanueva (whose office tweeted out the misleading story about “protesters” at the hospital) could barely contain his contempt for BLM protesters in his statement about the shooting. “This is just a somber reminder that this is a dangerous job, and actions and words have consequences. Our job does not get any easier because people do not like law enforcement,” Villanueva said. “It pisses me off. It dismays me at the same time.”

In this statement, Villanueva is trying to draw a direct line between the “actions and words” of protesters to the attempted murder of police officers. He seems less interested in drawing a line from police brutality and the murder of Black people to the attempted murder of police officers.

The reality is that we don’t know why the suspect tried to kill those two officers, but we can see with our own eyes that his actions were wrong and dangerously misguided. Speculation into his motives is irresponsible absent evidence. It’s wrong for journalists to speculate, and it’s wrong for journalists to repeat the unverified, potentially unhinged speculations of the LA County sheriff without any evidence whatsoever.

It’s not like the social justice organization ambushed two police officers in a parked car. It’s not like social justice organizations have a history of targeting police officers for murder. But the person who did target and ambush police officers appears to be Black and thus, apparently, it’s all our faults. That’s how racial profiling works, don’t you know.

So the police already have their villain, and they are enacting their retribution. On Sunday, LA County sheriff’s deputies shut down a “protest encampment” across from LA City Hall. The holdouts had been there for months, living peacefully, but cops cleared it mere hours after the shooting. Cops claim it was taken down because of “deteriorating conditions,” but nobody is required to be addled enough to believe them.

The inability and unwillingness of the media to accurately report on police lies and sensationalism will have the effect of excusing additional acts of police brutality. The police will point to the one guy who shot police officers (for reasons not yet known) and the one dude who shouted “I hope y’all die” as justification for cops to go out on the street tonight and violate the constitutional rights of Black people, or beat Black people, or kill Black people. And by refusing to call out police hysteria, the media will make that hysteria seem reasonable.

Given the stakes, it’s not too much to ask the media to do its job. It’s not too much to ask journalists to act like journalists instead of stenographers. If I can restrain myself from being a snarky, irresponsible axe-grinder when it comes to “blue lives,” it’s not too much to ask mainstream sources to think before retweeting or republishing the latest round of blue lies.

I have respect for Mystal but to refer to the brutal attempted assassination of two innocent officers in their car as “wrong and misguided” is itself incompetent journalism. “Misguided” ? This is way beyond the pot calling the kettle black. Here’s the video: let me know if you think this was a simple case of being “misguided”. Two cops now fighting to stay alive. One a 31 year old mother and the other a young 24 year old man.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54137838

You and I think alike a lot. The fact that “Defund the Police” has to be explained works for Trump. Whoever came up with that slogan wasn’t thinking beyond their nose.

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that the vehicle may have resembled a stolen car or in fact was reported stolen and the broken light was simply a way to talk to the driver. That might also explain probable cause and the need to ask for ID of the passengers as possible participants in a crime. Right now have to wait to see what the investigation determines. Hard to tell whether the one cop was bitten or not but something caused an injury to his hand. Anyway, I suspect the cop’s story won’t be about a broken tail light but will focus on “suspicious” conduct especially when the driver has no ID. That will be the defense and maybe suffice in Georgia for probable cause.

If that were the case the police would say so. Don’t you think?

Hitting a guy in the mouth will cut your hand. Right?

W this fits a profile. Cops are more likely to stop, search, arrest, and use force against black men.

They beat the guy up because he defied them by asking why they needed his ID since he was just a passenger.

The issue wasn’t probable cause, he had a tail light out…that is sufficient grounds to pull a guy over.

They had NO grounds to ask for the passenger’s ID but then they will make one up soon enough.

from https://www.kff.org/disparities-policy/press-release/poll-7-in-10-black-americans-say-they-have-experienced-incidents-of-discrimination-or-police-mistreatment-in-lifetime-including-nearly-half-who-felt-lives-were-in-danger/

When asked about interactions with law enforcement during their lifetimes, 4 in 10 (41%) Black Americans say they have been stopped or detained by police because of their race, and 1 in 5 Black adults (21%), including 3 in 10 Black men, say they have been a victim of police violence.

When asked about incidents just in the past year, 3 in 10 (30%) Black Americans say they personally experienced unfair treatment by police during traffic stops and other encounters. That is nearly three times the share of Hispanic Americans (11%) and ten times the share of White Americans (3%) who report such unfair treatment by police in the past year.

First, the police won’t say anything right now. That’s not how the union works or is it how it should work given the investigation is moving forward. Second, I know nothing about what happened other than the video. The only people that “know” are those involved. Those that proclaim some were at fault or were not have fault without knowing the facts -all-are either blindly supporting the police or blinding following an agenda that dictates in these situations it’s always the cops at fault. What I am saying is that I can see how this will be framed by the police union or even the officers themselves. And that is they saw a car resembling one reported stolen and used a broken taillight to make the stop. Once the driver did not show any ID the combination likely -according to Georgia State law-gave them probable cause to, at a minimun, ask or order the occupants to step outside. For whatever reasons something then triggered the altercation. I’m not saying those ARE the facts but I am saying that will likely be the story line and its credibility will hopefully be determined by the investigation. Something “triggered” the altercation and that something isn’t shown on the video. As you pointed out the injured hand could simply be the officers hitting the victim. But its just as consistent with the officer’s statement that he was bitten by the victim. I wouldn’t rush to judgment until all the facts are determined by those in charge of determining just that.

zn wrote:

Graphic Video Shows Georgia Cops Brutally Beat Unarmed Black Man Bloody ‘For Not Having His ID’

link https://newsone.com/4013363/georgia-police-brutality-video-unarmed-black-man/

A video of showing police brutalizing an unarmed Black man was making the rounds on social media Saturday morning and showed multiple cops beating him bloody and apparently unconscious on a street, and it was purportedly all because he either did not have his ID on him or did not show it to the cops.

An officer with the Clayton County Sheriff’s Office has been placed on administrative leave and an investigation was underway for what police described as “a video posted on social media involving a Deputy using physical force on a man.” Clayton County Sheriff Victor Hill “ordered his entire Internal Affairs Unit to come in and begin an investigation,” according to a press release.

The video was first posted to Instagram on Friday night by someone who said the victim was her cousin. It was not immediately clear if she was the one who filmed it, but she said it happened earlier that day.

The footage showed at least two officers smothering the man with their bodies on a street in an apparent attempt to restrain him. When both officers of the peace trained in de-escalation tactics could not manage to place one man in handcuffs, one cop repeatedly punched him in the face until he was not only bloody but also apparently unconscious.

This was all happening as the man’s apparent young son was watching.

It did not appear that the Black man was resisting.

The video opened up with the two cops wrestling with the Black man and one even punching him in the face. When the person filming tells the cops to stop punching him, the cop says, “he’s biting my hand.” The same cop then presses the man’s head into the pavement as the man yells, “I’m gonna die!” and “I can’t breathe!”

The woman filming the video screams, “No, don’t kill him! He said he can’t breathe!”

That’s when the same cop decided that punching the man in the face multiple times was the best course of action.

“We can’t get him in handcuffs,” one cop says as a third officer is seen rushing into the frame to assist.

The Black man’s legs can be seen shaking as the three cops still can’t manage to put an unconscious man in handcuffs.

As the cops step away briefly, the video shows blood streaming from the unresponsive man’s face.

According to the Instagram post, the man was in a ride-sharing car, perhaps a Lyft, when the driver was pulled over because his “tail light was out.” The driver “didn’t have his License.” When the cops asked the passengers (“my cousin and his girl”) for their IDs, they asked why it was necessary to identify themselves when they had done nothing wrong.

That’s when, according to the IG post, the cops “told him to get out the car and this what happened”:

The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that the vehicle may have resembled a stolen car or in fact was reported stolen and the broken light was simply a way to talk to the driver. That might also explain probable cause and the need to ask for ID of the passengers as possible participants in a crime. Right now have to wait to see what the investigation determines. Hard to tell whether the one cop was bitten or not but something caused and injury to his hand. Anyway, I suspect the cop’s story won’t be about a broken tail light but will focus on “suspicious” conduct especially when the driver has no ID. That will be the defense and maybe suffice in Georgia for probable cause.

Charles Manson is alive and well and out there someplace directing the Boogaloo Boys-or whatever they call themselves.