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Billy_TParticipantHey, WV,
Hope all is well —
Deep state is not a conspiracy theory, it’s a concept used in political analysis to describe the ways that unelected power structures like multinational plutocrats and intelligence/defense agencies tend to collaborate with one another in order to advance their own agendas. The fact that such plutocrats and agencies (A) exist, (B) have power, (C) are unelected, (D) tend to form alliances with each other and (E) try to advance their own agendas is not disputable; the only thing you can dispute is the nature and extent of their operations.
The above reads fine to me. But, unfortunately, it’s not how the folks on the right view the “deep state,” and that’s why I think — just my own view — it’s become counterproductive for lefties to use the term.
I prefer C. Wright Mills’ “power elite,” because I think it better reflects the way things work in America, as opposed to countries where the term is more accurately applied, like Turkey and Egypt.
Our system has always been one of control from the outside, not the inside. Our rich have pulled government strings from the outside of government. Where the term “deep state” was first applied, families, extended families, even “clans” ruled from the inside for generations. That hasn’t been our way.
I also think the term all but destroys the distinction between career civil servants and the few people at the top — or sparsely scattered among the rank and file — who really do act across a range from basic immorality all the way to the heinous and the secular version of “evil.” MOST of the government is composed of career civil servants, who do not engage in super-villainy, and I fear the term basically folds all of them over into Lex Luther status or worse . . . and this just plays into the hands of the right — even the far right.
But I think this aspect is the worse of all: The focus on “the deep state” takes our eyes off the people actually pulling the strings in the American system, which has always been our capitalist business owners, and those who are super-rich via other means. As long as we concentrate on just the Gubmint, we let them off the hook.
We need to do both/and.
May 25, 2018 at 9:53 pm in reply to: Teams Will be Fined if Players Kneel During National Anthem #86610Billy_TParticipantThe NFL’s attempt to dictate the behavior of its black players is typical of our country’s treatment of minorities. We treat them badly, then order them not to inconvenience us.
EDIT:
It just hit me that mandatory attendance at church and tithing and all the other church rules generate fake devotion. It’s about obedience, not faith or patriotism.I’ve thought the same thing about forcing kids to attend church, especially when it’s clear that’s the last place they want to be.
The older I get, the more convinced I am that the best way to go is live and let live. If you have to coerce anything or anyone, it’s not worth it. You’ve already lost. Let it be, etc.
And I am ferociously opposed to coerced “patriotism” of any kind, cuz it’s not. It’s not patriotic if it’s compelled — via peer pressure, business owners or our liar in chief.
This is so obvious and self-evident, I have no real idea why it’s even an issue. The players silently kneel, harm no one, do this non-violently, and no one can argue that they don’t have every reason in the world TO protest.
This country has lost its mind.
Billy_TParticipantI stopped clicking the HERD link months ago. I get sooo tired of reading the cheerleader posts, or self-appointed talent evaluator expert posts. Billy, you got banned from a dive bar!
Agreed, Snowman.
I won’t miss it.
Billy_TParticipantJust so you know Billy I wrote the Admin and asked why the entire post was not pulled.
Good to hear that, W.
How did they respond?
After a day of chemo, and listening to the (sometimes horrific) stories of other patients — which is unusual for me. I generally keep to myself when I’m there — I’ve had time to “sleep on it” a bit. About the only thing that bothers me now is the faceless, nameless aspect of it all. As in, I don’t know who deleted the posts, and I don’t know who locked me out just as I was getting ready to write a final post to the board.
To me, that’s cowardice, and it’s — struggling for the right expression here — bad form.
James, for instance, would have told me personally before any of this happened. He would have sent an email or a PM. The new mods — whoever they are — don’t have the stones to back up their own actions by divulging their handles at least, which, of course, still keeps them basically anonymous.
Not cool. Not. Cool.
They have not responded.
Figures. That’s flat out cowardly. No response. No names. Little baby autocrats, in hiding.
That board seems to have changed more than just its name in recent months. It lost its soul.
Billy_TParticipantI can’t listen to the whole thing right now. Where does he discuss liberalism? Where I jumped in he discussing Hume and empiricism.
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Its set up to play the part on liberalism. Bout the 39 min mark.
w
vI listened from that point on, but it made me want to listen to the entire thing, which I will eventually. Bookmarked.
I really liked the way he touched upon a progression from the ideals of early liberalism . . . into libertarian socialism, or anarchist socialism . . . as a kind of natural evolution . . . I’d love to hear more of him on this, or read some of his books on the subject.
I agree with that take. It’s how I identify, politically . . . and because that part of the spectrum strikes me as already “eclectic,” I see it as far, far less confining than most other parts.
Chomsky is just a national treasure.
Apologies if I’ve already recommended these: But two recent rereadings are relevant here:
George Scialabba’s brilliant What Are Intellectuals Good for . . . He’s a huge admirer of Chomsky, and the book is a must for leftists.
http://georgescialabba.net/mtgs/
(You can read many of his essays online)
And Richard Rorty’s Achieving Our Country.
Thanks, WV.
May 25, 2018 at 9:29 am in reply to: Teams Will be Fined if Players Kneel During National Anthem #86578Billy_TParticipantAnd, of course, Zooey, you’re right about the most important thing here: The protest was/is against police brutality and systemic racism, not about the flag or the anthem . . . . even though I think the anthem should be a part of the protest. It’s written by a slaveholder who later tried to defend his fellow slaveholders in court. The third verse actually celebrates the killing of slaves. We can do better as a nation in our choices.
It still surprises me that black players haven’t brought that up. That tells me they’ve showing remarkable restraint.
Trump likely knew he was doing this all along, but his interjection moved the goalposts for both the protesters and the people who hate the protests:
For the former, it’s now, at least in part, a matter of rejecting the authority of any man/woman, regardless of title, telling them they have to leave the country if they don’t want to stand while the anthem is played. And for those against the protesters, standing with Trump has now entered the fray. It keeps spinning more and more away from the original intent of the players — which was the point, of course.
One sure fire way to destroy dissent is to make sure few enough people remember the original rationale for that dissent.
May 25, 2018 at 9:17 am in reply to: Teams Will be Fined if Players Kneel During National Anthem #86577Billy_TParticipantVincent Bonsignore@DailyNewsVinny
By pouring $ and resources into a partnership to address social injustice, the #NFL told players it heard them loud and clear during their peaceful protest and are willing to fight with them. That gives them the right to ask them to stand during anthemWe get so caught up in emotion and distrust we completely lose sight of the players victory. What else is protest for if not to shed light on an injustice and rally support to fix it?
The players protested, the owners heard them, and are now helping them push beyond protest to actual action. That’s a win for players
The victory is $90m and the resources and platform of the #NFL to now go into communities and try to and fix the actual problem.
Seems like a non sequiter to say that because the NFL is “pouring” money into “a partnership” that it gives them the right to “ask.” There is not an agreed upon relationship between the two. Know how I know? Because the NFL isn’t “asking.” It’s threatening the players.
Secondly, what injustice, Vincent? Why can’t you NAME it? Why does the cause they are kneeling for rarely get spoken about, and never clearly? Why doesn’t anybody actually address the issue?
Lost in all of this is that the same people who bash the players for their (silent, non-violent) dissent, likely were all in when Cliven Bundy, and later, his son, armed themselves and faced down the Gubmint over the most bogus of reasons: They wanted to continue using public lands at no cost to themselves, as if that were their right, and their history was to abuse that land, start fires, over-graze, destroy, etc. etc.
It seems “dissent” is perfectly fine, even armed dissent, if it’s one’s own “team” doing it. And for a certain segment of white America, that doesn’t include people of color. They’re not “real Americans” so they don’t get to protest, even silently, non-violently, un-armed.
May 25, 2018 at 9:10 am in reply to: Teams Will be Fined if Players Kneel During National Anthem #86576Billy_TParticipantGood Op Ed, from a surprising source:
Excerpt:
It is right to decry this culture of intolerance and advocate for civility and engagement instead of boycotts and reprisals. The cure for bad speech is better speech — not censorship. Take that message to the heartland, and conservatives cheer.
Until, that is, Colin Kaepernick chose to kneel. Until, that is, the president demanded that the N.F.L. fire the other players who picked up on his protest after he was essentially banished from the league.
That was when the conservative mob called for heads to roll. Conform or face the consequences.
On Wednesday, the mob won. The N.F.L. announced its anthem rules for 2018, and the message was clear: Respect the flag by standing for the national anthem or stay in the locker room. If you break the rules and kneel, your team can be fined for your behavior.
This isn’t a “middle ground,” as the N.F.L. claims. It’s not a compromise. It’s corporate censorship backed up with a promise of corporate punishment. It’s every bit as oppressive as the campus or corporate attacks on expression that conservatives rightly decry.
You have 4 free articles remaining.
Subscribe to The TimesBut this is different, they say. This isn’t about politics. It’s about the flag.
I agree. It is different. Because it’s about the flag, the censorship is even worse.
One of the most compelling expressions of America’s constitutional values is contained in Justice Robert Jackson’s 1943 majority opinion in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. At the height of World War II, two sisters, both Jehovah’s Witnesses, challenged the state’s mandate that they salute the flag in school. America was locked in a struggle for its very existence. The outcome was in doubt. National unity was essential.
But even in the darkest days of war, the court wrote liberating words that echo in legal history: “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”
Billy_TParticipantJust so you know Billy I wrote the Admin and asked why the entire post was not pulled.
Good to hear that, W.
How did they respond?
After a day of chemo, and listening to the (sometimes horrific) stories of other patients — which is unusual for me. I generally keep to myself when I’m there — I’ve had time to “sleep on it” a bit. About the only thing that bothers me now is the faceless, nameless aspect of it all. As in, I don’t know who deleted the posts, and I don’t know who locked me out just as I was getting ready to write a final post to the board.
To me, that’s cowardice, and it’s — struggling for the right expression here — bad form.
James, for instance, would have told me personally before any of this happened. He would have sent an email or a PM. The new mods — whomever they are — don’t have to stones to back up their own actions by divulging their handles at least, which, of course, still keeps them basically anonymous.
Not cool. Not. Cool.
Billy_TParticipantI feel for you, brother.
Any board that would ban you is no board for me.
(this is the only board I post on, but I’m sure you get what I mean).
Matt
Thanks, Matt.
Much appreciated. Hope all is well.
Billy_TParticipantWell BT you know this board has one advantage no other board does.
Pie.
Thanks, ZN.
And may I say that I much prefer your style of being up front about mod stuff? I mean, we actually know it’s you when you hit us in the face with those pies. You don’t try to hide the fact that you’re a notorious, old-school pie-thrower. There’s nothing Kafkaesque about it, when you do that. It’s more like The Lucy Show.
Comedy is good for the soul!!
Billy_TParticipantBtw, WV,
What would Robinson Jeffers do after a banning?
Billy_TParticipantYeah, its not a place leftists can chime in on subjects like the National Anthem, etc.
I think the admins interpret leftist views as “political” (which they are) but they dont view centrist or mainstream views AS political. They dont ‘see’ the politics in mainstream views. Ya know. So, if you “support the Troops” and “support the anthem” etc — thats not politics to them.
Of course it IS, but they dont see it. Like a fish doesnt see the water. Or somethin. Ya know.
How come James left the Herd btw? Do you know?
w
vI agree with you 110%, WV. Ironically, that’s pretty much what I said in my own thread in response to the first deletion.
And, this may shock you, but I was uncharacteristically brief, too.
;>)
Perhaps three short paragraphs or so, and I just asked them to please stop doing those selective deletions while leaving the rest of the supposedly non-political posts intact. They aren’t non-political, etc. I asked them to basically delete all of it or let all voices be heard.
(I’d much rather they do the latter.)
The few people who got to respond before it was all deleted seemed to have approved.
As for James: I corresponded with him just once after he left, but he wouldn’t give any details. I think he was just tired of some of the admins. I don’t know what, specifically, was the final straw. But he wrote a pretty long farewell, and he had a lot of people responding to it, trying to get him to stay.
I wanted to do something similar, but never got the chance. The admins must have been saying to themselves, “You can’t quit!! You’re fired!!.”
Anyway, need to just move on, I suppose, but I’d really like to say a good old fuck you to the silent, faceless, “deep state” admins. ;>)
This all makes me feel like I’m in short story by Kafka. Admittedly, one he probably tore up, but still.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by
Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantWell…at least your citizenship is still good in this corner of AmeriKKKa.
Thanks, Zooey.
It’s frustrating, cuz there was no warning. At all. No words from the mods. Not for the first deletion, which I thought unfair; not for the deletion of the thread I started requesting that the mods not delete things in that manner — which was perfectly polite, but firm. And there was no warning for the lockout.
I had decided after my thread was deleted that I’d write a board farewell, like James did a few months ago, and was locked out in the middle of writing that.
Again, it kinda sounds funny when I think about it. But it also really pisses me off. It’s just not cool to do something like that with absolutely no warning(s).
All of this after roughly 23 years. Oh, well.
Billy_TParticipantWell, I’m lapsing already from “go with the flow.”
Here’s another case of things getting darker and darker and darker:
http://www.businessinsider.com/michael-cohen-ukraine-payments-trump-access-2018-5
Bombshell report claims Ukraine paid Michael Cohen at least $400,000 for access to Trump — then pumped the brakes on its Manafort investigation
Billy_TParticipantExcellent article by Hedges, as usual.
I talk to people all the time who confuse the Dems with the left. And I try to correct them, but it never really matters. It’s hopeless. I try to show them how the Dems have mostly been a center-right party at least since the 1960s, but they still think of them as commies. I even try to differentiate between liberals and leftists, which also generally doesn’t get through.
And when they talk about “socialism,” I try to remind them of some truly great socialists, who were the opposite of Stalin — a huge number of Americans see “socialism” and immediately think Stalin . . .
MLK, Gandhi, Helen Keller, Einstein, Kafka, Dorothy Day, Shelley, Mary Wollstonecraft, William Morris and Peter Kropotkin, Oscar Wilde, Camus, Orwell, Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein, Michael Harrington, Naomi Klein, Richard D. Wolff, David Harvey . . . to name a few. I often add “ooooh, scary!!!” after that . . . again, to no avail.
Too many Americans see Dems in monolithic terms as “far left,” and they see the “far left” in monolithic terms as Stalinist. They see an either/or instead of the thousand and one actual options and alternatives.
I think this is all by design. The powers that be WANT us to think in terms of two. It’s much, much easier to control us that way and keep us frustrated but ultimately docile and compliant. Herd us into two pens — Dem or Republican — and even narrow down the possibility of what THAT could mean.
We’re screwed primarily, IMO, because too many people see only a tiny slice of what the world could be.
Billy_TParticipantI don’t know guys.
I have backed away from all of this because it’s all too depressing. Now I read magic forums and study card sleights more. It’s better for my mental health.
Trump has been wildly successful at discrediting the investigation, the media and Democrats in the eyes of a large part of the public. And even that has seeped into the majority of the public in many ways.
53 percent of Americans now say the investigation is politically motivated. Only 44 percent say it’s justified according to CBS News:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-americans-now-say-russia-investigation-is-politically-motivated-cbs-news-poll/It’s one thing to defeat crooked politicians. It’s quite another to defeat a gullible and ignorant public and a congress that protects him.
I will still vote and I’ll send money to politicians I believe in. But I no longer have the mental energy for this fight with Trumpers. I have no energy to rally the disinterested voter either.
Our generation has failed.
Hopefully the next one can find a way to clean up the mess.
I understand all of that, Pa.
I’m rereading some Zen classics and trying to get back into Buddhism. Its lessons seem perfectly timed for this clusterfuck.
No dualism. Don’t even think there is no dualism, because that in itself assumes it exists. No attachments, no clinging, no worrying mind. Big Mind only. Original Mind only. To bastardize it all, go with the flow.
Humility, patience, all is one, again, without a context of duality.
It also tells us don’t even seek enlightenment, because that, too, is an attachment. We already are. It’s just a matter of getting to it . . . which makes me think of the way Michelangelo saw his sculptures already there within the rocks.
All of that said, I still find myself wanting to throw stuff at the TV when political stuff comes on. I probably shouldn’t do that.
;>)
Billy_TParticipantThe latest is, of course, is managing to gain access to evidence against him, against his own campaign, from the DOJ, which has never happened.
And, to take this one step further on the crazy train, tomorrow they’ll be a White House, Republican-Only meeting with the DOJ and DNI, Nunes and Gowdy — no Dems allowed — to “share” all of this evidence of the supposed “spygate.”
Trump managed to get an investigation going into the investigation OF Trump and his campaign — and to shut out Democrats in the process.
How is this not leading to impeachment proceedings? Even WITH the GOP in full control?
Billy_TParticipantMan-I’ll take those three other guys over Trump any day !
This is hell.
The list of jaw-dropping shit is incredible. Week-after-week, he piles one atrocity on top of another, and everyone is just kind of dazed by it.
I am serious about getting out of this country. I just do not see elements of a society that please me anywhere I look. This country has become a disgrace. It had problems before. But now…it’s just looking like a hopeless mass of incendiary racism, authoritarianism, and money-grabbing. There is a complete disregard for law and democracy. Everywhere I look. And the signs are not good.
We have to get rid of this guy quickly, or we are going to become a fascist country that proclaims from the mountaintops that it had to become this in order to avoid becoming fascist.
I agree about leaving the country. As mentioned before, Portugal is my hopeful destination.
But, back to Trump: What scares me is that we’ve entered into a brand new world of no boundaries. None. The Media talk about if this or that happens, that will be the end of it. Trump crosses that line, and then they have to create a new one. “If he goes over that line, he’s toast.” He goes over that one too, and nothing happens.
I have NO idea what it is about the guy that makes this possible, because from where I sit, he’s dumb as shit, a classic known-nothing boor, can’t speak coherently to save his life, lies endlessly . . . and everyone with a lick of sense knows this.
How does it get away with it? His fake-it-until-he-makes-it confidence? His anger? Well, a LOT of people have come and gone with those attributes.
Seriously, what is it about Trump that lets him break every norm in the book?
Billy_TParticipantThat’s why Mueller is compiling cases in the state courts. Trump cannot pardon anyone for state crimes. He can’t stop it. And much of his dirty work was performed in New York, and so that’s where I am expecting some encylopedias to be dropped.
He’s screwed, Billy. It’s a matter of time. I have maintained all along that this might be all for naught, but I’m changing my mind. And it’s not just Mueller anyway. I am about to post re: Stormy Daniels which I think needs a separate thread.
Zooey,
Again, I hope you’re right. I really do. Cuz if Trump gets away with this, I think that’s it. We’re no longer a nation. We’re a “failed state.” Stick a fork in us, etc. etc.
On a personal note, hope all is well with you and yours.
Billy_TParticipantStating the obvious . . . if the Dems retake Congress later this year, the Trump plans may fall apart. But nothing is a given in this environment. It’s not even a given that the Dems will figure out how best to deal with all of this even if they do regain power.
I’m exhausted by this spectacle too.
Billy_TParticipantI think the evidence is overwhelming that Trump colluded with the Russians. In fact, the sheer overwhelming nature of the evidence may be helping Trump. His scandals, his endless lies, cover-ups, obstruction of justice, have hit the “unbelievable” point, and too many Americans have either tuned it all out, or just don’t believe it’s possible…
It’s like an en masse TL;DNR syndrome. Too long, did not read. Americans, already weakened by the Internet and smartphones, just don’t have the attention span anymore for this kind of onslaught . . . and I’m guilty of this too.
But that doesn’t matter.
Donald Trump, and his associates, are not being tried in the court of public opinion. They are going to be tried elsewhere, and whether Americans have combat fatigue or not is not relevant at this point. Everybody treats this like what matters are his poll numbers.
Public opinion will matter only if Mueller turns the entire enchilada over to congress where all those assholes will decide to impeach or not based on their own constituencies.
But when that happens…the entire thing will get a reboot. That is…all the charges will be laid out specifically, and everybody will pour over the actual charges. Right now, like you said, it’s overwhelming and hard to follow. But once it’s laid out, it will be classified by category (financial crimes, Russian interference, campaign coordination, transition contacts, and obstruction of justice), and the lists of names, dates, and crimes will all be laid out. It will be overwhelming because this thing is a fucking Gordian knot, and some shit is going to still be Classified since it will involve people/contacts still in “the field,” but my point is…the actual conclusion of the investigation is going to hit the reset button, and we will start brand new with everything laid out clearly.
So right now, it is overwhelming as we learn something new almost every day, and you’ve got Trump and his supporters out there running their fog machines full blast, and everyone claiming Mueller is just making crap up out of nothing…none of that will matter when he drops his set of encylopedias on the table.
I realize there’s a huge difference between the public “ruling” (or opinion-making) and the legal one. But Trump and company no doubt hope they can sway public opinion for at least two reasons:
1. If they actually allow Mueller to drop those encyclopedias, and I don’t think they will, Trump is trying to set up a bogus, entirely “political” case for ignoring the results entirely. If the GOP-controlled Congress fears that public view enough, they may well dismiss the findings too, or seek ways to suppress them. They suppressed a recent study on unsafe drinking water across the nation. Why wouldn’t they suppress Mueller?
2. The public crusade is there to give Trump and friends cover for killing the investigation, firing all those involved, and the GOP obviously won’t stop Trump from replacing these people with sycophants. He’s already done a ton of that.
In short . . . while I HOPE you’re right about this, I’m not sanguine about it at all at this point. Trump has gotten away with more than I thought humanly possible already. I fear he’ll get away with this too . . . one way or another.
Billy_TParticipantAnd here is a WaPo article that came out a couple of days ago giving more detail about the intelligence source Nunes tried to get information on from the Justice Dept.
I can’t read that without access. I suppose I could get access, but not today. As a favor, if anyone does have access to the Washington Post, could you copy that here? Thanks.
…
ZN,
Just clear your cache, cookies and history, and you can view articles there. It’s annoying, but you have to do this every two or three articles. Use Firefox to make this a little easier, and set it to clear all of that when you close the browser.
Also, ccleaner is a pretty good cleaner for your computer, and it has a free version.
https://www.ccleaner.com/ccleaner
I’d do both/and.
Billy_TParticipantAn attempt at not being TL; DNR:
I find it appalling that a sitting president may well get away with calling for a DOJ investigation INTO the investigation INTO his own criminal activities.
Anyone who enables this, directly or indirectly, is aiding and abetting a thug, a monster, and the monstrous ideology that surrounds him — which is far right. That some of this comes from “the left” makes it all the more sickening.
Goddess, but I want to leave this country a thousand times over. We’ve jumped the proverbial shark.
Billy_TParticipantThis is a provocative, and somewhat disturbing, read. A very good piece that argues that the US may already be effectively under Russian control.
link: https://lithub.com/rebecca-solnit-the-coup-has-already-happened/
Thanks, Zooey.
Good article.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that Trump colluded with the Russians. In fact, the sheer overwhelming nature of the evidence may be helping Trump. His scandals, his endless lies, cover-ups, obstruction of justice, have hit the “unbelievable” point, and too many Americans have either tuned it all out, or just don’t believe it’s possible. But in case after case, the reporting has been confirmed. It always turns out that, yes, Trump, his associates, or his family did in fact do X, Y or Z, though they denied it for as long as they could.
It’s like an en masse TL;DNR syndrome. Too long, did not read. Americans, already weakened by the Internet and smartphones, just don’t have the attention span anymore for this kind of onslaught . . . and I’m guilty of this too.
Another thing that pisses me off to no end these days . . . is the continued work of people like Glenn Greenwald, who have been Trump’s truthers, in effect. It seems to me they’d rather believe anything than what’s right in front of their faces, so they spin their speculative yarns about the CIA, the FBI, and the “deep state” as if the GOP doesn’t run all of those things, as if it makes any logical sense that Trump is the victim of a coordinated attack against him by his own party.
I’ve mentioned it before, but holding Trump accountable for his obvious crimes — which long ago reached the impeachment threshold — in no way redeems Clinton or the Dems, and even if it miraculously did (in the minds of some) as a bi-product, that’s still not reason enough to block investigations into a crime family boss (Trump). IMO, any public figure on the left who aids and abets Trump is a useful idiot now. Nothing more. They’re not a “freedom fighter” or “speaking truth to power.” They helping power (Trump/GOP) destroy what’s left of our democracy. Shame on them. Shame. On. Them.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantBilly,
Can you compare the growth in income in, say, the last 2 years of Obama and Trump’s first 18 months?
That’s a significant piece of the picture. I cite manufacturing jobs, because as I said earlier, I see the crappy jobs added by Wal-Mart, McDdonald, Home Depot as part of the problem.
The fact that WalMart continues to expand and add jobs is not encouraging.
The growth in income is lower under Trump, compared with Obama’s last six years.
I’m trying to find good articles about this, or the clips from Morning Joe. But they’ve put up the charts several times in the last few months showing this. I’ll post them when I can.
Enjoying the discussion, Cal. Gotta head out.
Billy_TParticipantAlso, Cal, and this is where Republicans benefit from silencing environmental studies, which they recently did with regard to water safety. They actually crushed the report that was due to tell us that the entire country was in danger of unsafe drinking water, not just places like Flint.
Trump and the GOP have slashed regulations that protect the environment for all of us. They’ve made it easier for corporations to dump toxic sludge into our lakes, streams and rivers, and that all ends up in the oceans. They’ve made it easier for coal companies to dump toxic shit in mountain regions, which will make people living there sick. They’ve rolled back hundreds of protections like that, and at the workplace, placing us all at risk.
Tragically, we tend not to track things like the above in the way we track job numbers, GDP, wage growth, etc. etc. But they should be included in the “costs” of legislation. They actually increase our risk of death, sickness and shorten our lives, not to mention wildlife.
Trump and the GOP also sold off more than two million acres of protected wilderness which Obama had saved. It’s now in the hands of Big Oil and Big Coal. Aside from the added risk to human and other life, this is stripping us of our national heritage. These are also “costs” that should be factored in when legislation is done.
They aren’t. Trump and the GOP never mentions them.
In short, if you want an accurate picture of things, you’re not going to get it from Trump or the GOP. And, remember, he won in part by scaring his base to death about the supposed hell hole America had become. In reality, he hasn’t improved it at all. Same country. It was never in flames the way Trump described it. It wasn’t being overridden by hordes of brown people — net border crossings were waay down. It wasn’t in the midst of a Great Depression, though a large number of people were struggling. They still are, btw, under Trump, too. None of that has changed according to that study I posted from the United Way.
I don’t trust either of the major parties to tell us the truth. But, IMO, the GOP is exponentially worse when it comes to serial lies, distortions, and the silencing of public information. We deserve better.
Billy_TParticipantBut what are those policies, Cal?
I paid very close attention to Trump during the campaign, and he never spelled them out for anyone. And I would ask his supporters what they were, and they couldn’t answer, other than to say Make America Great Again.
If he does get credit for the economy, it will likely only be among the people who would vote for him anyway, and he’ll get it from them without ever revealing exactly what he’s done to “earn” that credit.
I have no interest in defending Trump. But what I would like to do is have an accurate picture of the conditions in our country.
How would you explain the fact that an important industry saw a small retraction in 8 of the 12 months before Trump AND then reversed course and saw significant growth in 12 of the 13 months after Trump took office?
Is that just a coincidence? Maybe, the economy does seem a bit mercurial to me.
But i know–and I think you do too–what Republicans will say.
And they have a damn good argument too.
Here’s a link to an interview from the time of the discussions about the tax cuts that underscores the arguments that Republicans will be making in the mid-terms if the trends in job growth continue.
I don’t know about that one change. But, again, overall, Trump has fewer new jobs per month than Obama averaged in his last six years, and income gains for workers are lower under Trump, too.
What’s more important? The overall numbers, or one small sector?
Anyway, I personally don’t think the GOP has any good arguments regarding the economy. They always do very stupid things when they gain control. No credible economist, for instance, thought it was a good idea to slash taxes in the middle of one of the longest recoveries on record, when unemployment was already at 4%, corporations were already sitting on trillions, the debt was already at 20 trillion and counting.
And, remember when the GOP bashed Obama endlessly for deficits? Suddenly, since they’re in power again, deficits don’t matter. They meant the end of the world while Obama and the Dems ran things. Now they’re apparently meaningless.
The smart thing to do would have been to actually raise taxes on the rich — it would have been a Nixon goes to China moment — balance the budget while times are good and start to pay down the debt.
America is pretty much the only OECD country not to try to some form of debt reduction while the economy is relatively good.
Billy_TParticipantTake a closer look at manufacturing jobs which is the type of job Americans need to return.
Manufcturing jobs have declined have declined steadily–in 2000 there were 17.3 million manufacturing jobs in the US. The US kept losing those jobs with a low of 11.5 million jobs after the Great Recession.
Under Obama, manufacturing jobs rebounded steadily before plateauing at 12.3 million jobs in the beginning of 2015.
A year and a half later there were still only 12.35 million manufacturing jobs by August 2016, just months before the election.
In the year before the election, Obama’s economy lost manufacturing jobs in 8 out of the 12 months.
Since 1/17 Trump’s economy has lost manufacturing jobs just one month. By 1/18 manufacturing jobs had ticked upwards to 12.6 million.
After stalling at 12.3 million for Obama, Trump has steadily added 300,000 manufacturing jobs.
If this trend continues all summer, I fear 2018 will be more disappointing than we’d like.
Trump and his policies WILL get credit for this growth in the economy.
But what are those policies, Cal?
I paid very close attention to Trump during the campaign, and he never spelled them out for anyone. And I would ask his supporters what they were, and they couldn’t answer, other than to say Make America Great Again.
If he does get credit for the economy, it will likely only be among the people who would vote for him anyway, and he’ll get it from them without ever revealing exactly what he’s done to “earn” that credit.
That said, the Dems could very well blow this on their own. If I could direct them in any way, it would be to forget about Russia, concentrate on Trump’s corruption, grifting and pay to play while in office, run against Washington using all of that, and push an agenda for workers, by, for and on behalf of workers.
Promise a $17 minimum wage
Tuition-free college in all state schools
Medicare for all, with a buy-in too until we can transition fully to the new systemI’d also promise to overturn every single anti-labor and anti-union law or regulation on the books, by whatever legal means possible. Taft-Hartley and all the rest.
For starters . . .
Billy_TParticipantBy my math, the US spent 560 billion on safety net programs (SNAP, EIC, Medicaid, TANF, HUD) in 2016.
We spent 2.4 Trillion on everything besides medicare and social security, which should be paid for with payroll taxes. See my link to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:CBO_Infographic_2016.png
So, about 1/5 of the budget, apart from medicare and social security costs, went to supporting the safety net.
Based on that graphic from Occupy Democrats, I would have paid 200 bucks in taxes if 1/5 of my taxes went to supporting the safety net. I paid a helluva lot more than that last year. And I’m probably unusual in that I can claim 3 kids.
I’m not against helping the poor. I’m just arguing that the system is broken and conservatives who complain about an over sized safety net have a point.
This country needs to do a better job of providing poor people with good paying jobs.
Cal,
The problem with conservatives in this case, though, is that they’ll never force companies to pay better wages. In fact, their agenda is to remove the all too lax regulations we do have on the books, and to crush unions to death, which once were able to ensure higher wages for everyone — even non-union workers — and much better benefits.
In short, they want to shrink the safety net but offer nothing else to replace it. Just more of the same old same old hard neoliberalism. The Dems, unfortunately, counter with soft neoliberalism, so there is no party in power fighting for workers, the poor, the consumer or the environment — at least not enough to matter.
As mentioned upthread, I’d rather we had the kind of economy that provides for everyone upfront, so no government offsets are needed later. I’d rather it do its job so there isn’t any need for help from charities or the public sector.
As long as we have capitalism, however, that’s not going to happen. Capitalism is built to concentrate wealth, income, privilege and power at the top. It’s always going to generate poverty in its wake, and the working poor, and a shrinking middle. If there isn’t any government intervention to offset this, those people will suffer even more.
In short, we can’t have capitalism and no safety net at the same time. That’s just sadism on steroids, and we’d end up with revolution in the streets, too.
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