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Billy_TParticipant
According to several reports, Republicans reportedly threatened to wield the filibuster against Biden’s cabinet nominees and legislative agenda if Democrats called witnesses in the impeachment trial. The reasoning goes that Biden and the Democrats want to get something accomplished, so they caved to the threat of the Republicans to immobilize the government.
That’s probably true, but I still don’t think that is the real reason the Democrats didn’t call witnesses. If they had called witnesses, they would have destroyed the GOP. The tendrils in this were not just between Trump and his mob. The tendrils also connected to about 10 people we know of for certain in Congress who were not just complicit, but collaborative in this attempted overthrow of the government. There were also tendrils into the Capitol police, and possibly the Pentagon and the National Guard. But we know for sure Congress and the police. The damage the GOP would have sustained from eyewitnesses and participants would have driven a fatal wedge between the Corporate/Business wing of the party and its fascist QAnon/MAGA populist wing. And that would have finished off the political power of the right. The consequence of that would have been that the the progressive wing of the Democrat party would have filled that power vacuum, and the Democrats prefer Republicans to the progressives. They’ve made that abundantly clear over the past decade. We have all seen that the Democrats punch left, and negotiate right. And destroying the Republican party would have inevitably led to all kinds of things: Green New Deal (a real one, too), Wall St reform, Medicare for All, increased wages and benefits for workers, stronger unions, less imperialism abroad, reduced police state, all kinds of things that the financiers of the Democrat party do not want to see happen. The Democrats NEED the Republicans so that THEY can be the leftward edge of the economic and political spectrums.
That’s my view as well, Zooey. Well said.
The Dems also need the GOP so they can play their “Not as bad as the Republicans” game. I don’t think it’s a winning strategy, but they seem convinced that it is. I think if they hadn’t gone that route, we never would have seen the rise of the new right in America. No Reagan, Bush, Tea Party or Trump. The Dems could have stopped all of that from even starting if they had stuck with FDR-style governance at least, updated to suit circumstances as they unfolded.
To short-cut all of this, if they had been the party of AOCs, from the 1960s on, the right never could have mustered a majority to push through Thatcherism, the Chicago School and so on from there. It’s really in the absence of proactive, progressive governance that the far-right can and often does take hold.
Capitalism atomizes society. Turns us into competing monads of flailing desires. Which means, without a strong public sector, actively trying to improve lives, far too many Americans feel left out, alone, on their own, and in eternal competition with their fellow Americans and the rest of the world. Capitalism creates a dog eat dog world on purpose, cuz it profits off of that. It won’t survive if we all wake up and work collectively to better our conditions and society.
The role of the two parties is to keep us separated, while gaslighting us into thinking we’re a part of something bigger.
I wonder how many Dems or Republicans, at the individual level, know this is happening, promote it, go along with it, or fight against it.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantThe following is an Op-Ed, and by a centrist pundit. But it all strikes me as accurate, factual, truthful and to the point. It also points to the WTF nature of the GOP reaction,
(I’m pasting the whole thing, given recent changes at accessing articles at the WaPo):
Opinion: Trump left them to die. 43 Senate Republicans still licked his boots.
Opinion by
Dana Milbank
Columnist
Feb. 13, 2021 at 6:37 p.m. ESTIn the end, the darkest truth of Donald Trump’s crime came to light.
As his marauders sacked the Capitol on Jan. 6 in their bloody attempt to overturn the election, House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy called the then-president and pleaded for Trump to call off the attack.
Trump refused, essentially telling McCarthy he got what he deserved. Trump was, in effect, content to let members of Congress die.
That damning account, in a statement Friday night from Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler (Wash.), a Republican who defended Trump during his first impeachment, momentarily threw the Senate’s impeachment trial into chaos on its final day.
Trump’s lawyers, in their slashing, largely fictitious defense, claimed that Trump was “horrified” by the violence, hadn’t known that Vice President Mike Pence was in danger and took “immediate steps” to counter the rioting.
ADBut Herrera Beutler revealed such claims to be a lie. When McCarthy “finally reached the president on January 6 and asked him to publicly and forcefully call off the riot, the president initially repeated the falsehood that it was antifa that had breached the Capitol,” she wrote. McCarthy, she continued, “refuted that and told the president that these were Trump supporters. That’s when, according to McCarthy, the president said: ‘Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are.’ ”
McConnell says Trump ‘still liable for things he did’ while president
On Feb. 13, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said former president Trump could still be held accountable within the criminal justice system. (The Washington Post)Her account wasn’t seriously or substantively refuted. On Saturday afternoon, senators agreed that Herrera Beutler’s statement would be entered into the trial record as evidence.
Even knowing this, most Republican senators, as long expected, voted to acquit Trump, a craven surrender to the political imperative not to cross the demagogue. But the impeachment trial was not in vain, for it revealed the ugly truth: Trump knew lawmakers’ lives were in danger from his violent supporters, and instead of helping the people’s representatives escape harm, Trump scoffed.
ADRepublicans scrambled to limit the damage of Herrera Beutler’s revelation. Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, who had feigned being open to conviction, abandoned the pretense and, minutes before the Senate convened Saturday, emailed his Republican colleagues that he would vote to acquit.
On the Senate floor, Trump counsel Michael van der Veen, a personal-injury lawyer by day, tried in every way to demonstrate his indignation at the late revelation. He shouted. He growled. He gesticulated madly. He pounded the lectern. He stomped. He spat out words: “Antics.” “Rumor.” “Report.” “Innuendo.” “False narrative!” He actually declared that “it doesn’t matter what happened after the insurgence into the Capitol building.” So what if Trump scoffed at McCarthy’s desperate entreaty to save lawmakers’ lives?
Sputtering like the Looney Tunes character Sylvester the Cat, van der Veen declared: “Nancy Pelosi’s deposition needs to be taken. Vice President Harris’s deposition absolutely needs to be taken. And not by Zoom. None of these depositions should be done by Zoom. We didn’t do this hearing by Zoom! These depositions should be done — in person, in my office, in Philly-delphia!”
Sufferin’ succotash!
Laughter broke out in the chamber.
“I don’t know why you’re laughing,” he responded. “It is civil process. … I’ll slap subpoenas on a good number of people.” He seemed to think he was arguing a slip-and-fall case in the Pennsylvania Court of Common Pleas.
Republicans joined the theatrics.
On the Senate floor, Sen. Ron Johnson (Wis.), an always-Trumper, was seen pointing at Sen. Mitt Romney (Utah) and saying “blame you” in a raised voice. Romney was one of five Republicans who joined all 50 Democrats in voting to allow witness testimony.
Sen. Mike Lee (Utah), another Trump ally, interrupted a presentation to complain that the House impeachment managers “said something that’s not true” — never mind that the Senate had sat in silence during hours of falsehoods from Trump’s team.
After Herrera Beutler’s revelations sparked a vote for witnesses, Senate leaders brokered a compromise to keep the impeachment trial from spiraling into endless discovery. Herrera Beutler’s statement would be admitted as evidence, but this would “not constitute a concession by either party as for the truth of the matters asserted by the other party.”
Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), the lead impeachment manager, claimed that “this uncontradicted statement” provided “further decisive evidence of [Trump’s] intent to incite the insurrection.”
Van der Veen, in response, howled about due process and fairness being “violently breached” — interesting words, given what his client did.
When the yeas and nays were counted, seven Senate Republicans joined Herrera Beutler in her courageous stand, voting along with all 50 Democrats to convict Trump. The other 43 Republicans, some of whom, like McConnell, feebly denounced Trump’s conduct even as they acquitted him, now have the cowardly distinction of licking the boots of the man who left them to die.
Billy_TParticipantIf anybody comes across a plausible explanation for why the Democrats stopped short of calling witnesses, I’d like to see it.
—
Had to be a political-calculation. Nation was
getting sick of the hearing. The Nation wants them to work on more
important things.The Dems knew no matter how many witnesses showed up
they were not going to get a conviction.
And they knew no matter how many witnesses came they were not going to
score any more points than they’d already scored, because the vast majority of Americans are not pol-wonks and dont watch this stuff.The Dems got what they could get, and now they want out.
w
vGood points, WV.
That’s the likely rationale.
Billy_TParticipantZooey,
That makes sense. Protecting themselves while protecting Trump in effect. But it’s a perverse bargain. They wouldn’t be in danger if not for Trump. Not politically or literally. And that part puzzles me. The GOP, if it wanted to, could shut Trump down, along with his entire base, if they got on the same page against him, as they are now pretending to be for him.
They’re generally really good at messaging and a united front, unlike the Dems. Why not kill Frankenstein’s monster while they have the chance? . . . and they had that chance dozens of times in the last 5 years.
In my view, Trump’s base would have fallen in line with an anti-Trump message too, at least eventually. They’re all too easily led by the nose. Anyone who can be convinced that satanic cannibals with space lasers rule the world can be convinced of pretty much anything.
Oh, well. My gut tells me that America, right now, is the most gaslit nation in the world, by miles, and perhaps all time. That’s not gonna turn out well.
Billy_TParticipantIf anybody comes across a plausible explanation for why the Democrats stopped short of calling witnesses, I’d like to see it.
Made zero sense to me. Was momentarily hopeful about the sudden change early in the day, due to new info overnight, then those hopes were dashed.
Baffling.
The only thing I can think of is there may have been pressure from the Biden admin to move on, to get it over with, so they could pursue their nominees and agenda. That’s about it.
All of that said, 57-43 is a strong indictment against Trump, though the right will spin that as a victory, as “vindication.”
I also can’t help thinking anyone who voted to protect Trump is the lowest of low. It basically says that protecting Trump is more important than their own lives, the lives of their families, their colleagues, staff, and their families. Trump literally sent the mob to kill them all. And, once they were in middle of the melee, McCarthy and others begged him to stop it, and he wouldn’t. He refused to protect the House and Senate from a potential massacre.
The vote was so easy. Should have been 100 to 0.
Billy_TParticipantI was channel surfing between commercial breaks and came across this movie shortly after the 2 soldiers began their journey in the trenches…. my channel surfing stopped… great filming sequences, I couldn’t stop watching it…
I rewatched it again in it’s entirety… but you’re right Billy, it develops a similar storyline to Pvt Ryan…
I need to rewatch it too.
The trench scenes were great as well. The pacing, the sweep, and there were no wasted moments. Nothing I could see out of place. It all fit together and drove the narrative on. I also like that it started off with a twist of sorts. Won’t spoil it for others by saying what happened, but the surprise change-up worked for me. It’s more “realistic” that way.
If you’re interested in another really good movie about WWI, you should check out “Joyeux Noël,” about a Christmas truce in the trenches. Based on a true story.
Billy_TParticipantThat’s one of several movies I’ve been interested in seeing. The films I want to see never come to Netflix.
Our local cable company has this free movies thing this week. I think 1917 was via Starz. Have cut back on the streamers I had, thinking it was just too much, and there aren’t enough hours in the day, etc. So that came in handy.
A lot of the early hopes for “cord cutters” have been dashed, as the market is nearly saturated with umpteen separate streamers now. Far too costly to try to get everything you’d actually like to see, cuz they’re on separate platforms now. So I dropped most everything, at least until next Winter, most likely.
I’m always on the look out for free weeks and trials. The Criterion Collection has its own streamer now, and will probably sign up for that later this year. Krzysztof Kieślowski — had to use Wiki for the spelling! — is a favorite, and his stuff is pretty much never on any of the major streamers. The Double Life of Veronique is the best of his best, IMO, and I’ve been dying to see it again.
Anyway . . . 1917 is really good, as mentioned. I also rewatched Butch Cassidy. First time in decades. It still holds up as excellent film-making, but my attitude toward the protagonists has changed. It was a lot easier for me to root for them when I was younger. Now, all kinds of “critical thinking” aspects kick in, even when I don’t really want them to.
;>)
Still enjoyed it.
Billy_TParticipantGoing back to what WV said about the difficulty of convicting people in a court of law, I thought Trump’s call to the Georgia Secretary of State was an excellent example. He knew exactly what Trump wanted him to do, which is why he leaked the audio to protect himself from his own legal liabilities.
Trump said everything but “steal the votes for me, or else.” He walked right up to that line, almost crossed it several times, and did threaten him. But he may well have couched his rhetoric in enough double-speak to get away with it. I have no idea, but I do know he shouldn’t be able to.
Here’s the full transcript and audio of the call between Trump and Raffensperger
So, again, Trump set the stage for an insurrection, wanted it to happen, and developments over night say he and McCarthy got into a shouting match about Trump’s refusal to do anything to stop the melee. There is no question Trump used his own zombie horde as a battering ram to attempt a coup. It’s beyond obvious, based on years of whipping his base into a (white) army of the permanently aggrieved, angry and irrational.
I think it’s imperative to shut down the rise of fascism in America, right now, this instant. While we leftists can easily multitask, hold feet to the fire all over the map, this should be our priority. As long as we have capitalism in place, we’ll have empire and corporate pols. They’ll always be there. But the fascist menace starts with that status quo, that corporatism, that love of capitalism and empire, and adds the ugliest of ideologies on top of it.
If they “win,” we won’t have a chance in hell of battling against corporate power, which is at least possible under the rule of centrist Dems. At least the battle is possible. Under fascist rule, we’d all be underground, if not in more dire straits.
Just my two cents, etc.
Billy_TParticipantThese books scared the hell out of me, and should be required reading for decision-makers:
THE UNINHABITABLE EARTH by David Wallace-Wells
And Jason Hickel’s The Divide.
(Probably can’t post three links together, so I won’t try.)
The last one is excellent on global inequality as well. Actually, that’s its main topic, but it includes a great deal of info on climate change and environmental destruction too.
Billy_TParticipantThese books scared the hell out of me, and should be required reading for decision-makers:
Naomi Klein’s On Fire.
THE UNINHABITABLE EARTH by David Wallace-Wells
And Jason Hickel’s The Divide.
(Probably can’t post three links together, so I won’t try.)
The last one is excellent on global inequality as well. Actually, that’s its main topic, but it includes a great deal of info on climate change and environmental destruction too.
Billy_TParticipantI don’t pin my hopes on either major party doing the right thing regarding the environment. I know they won’t. To me, this is all about a comparison between the GOP and the Dems, not between what’s being done and what needs to be done.
Relatively speaking, the Dems are better on the environment, by a significant degree, if we judge just the two.
Not “good.” Not close to good.
But better. Enough to save lives and forestall End Times.
And until we get actual ecosocialists in power, that’s the best we can do, IMO. Better, not good.
I know to take everything written about the two parties with a grain of salt, but this is what the Guardian has to say so far about Biden’s enviro record/plans:
- This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantAll of that makes a lot of sense, WV. And I defer to your expertise in courtrooms. You have, what? More than three decades of it? Pushing four?
So, yeah. I’d bet you’re right about that, as far as courtroom conviction goes. But to gain a conviction in an impeachment trial doesn’t involve the same level of proof or consensus, as far as I know. The standard is “political,” not criminal. It’s much lower, right? Just 67 out of 100 to convict, and then 51 to prevent future public office.
I also think it’s the case that he never had to go beyond those weasel words. His base was already enraged to the point of exploding. Trump had fed them dangerous lies for years about “rigged elections,” and that he could only lose if an election was stolen from him. That goes back to before his battle with Clinton, and before this election too. He had them so wound up, he could have said boo and they would have stormed the Bastille.
But unlike the French peasantry, they stormed it so they could keep King Louis in power, so they could have their great white hope in Versailles for life.
Trump knew this. He knew he had a zombie horde he could play tin general with. He knew they saw their own fates wrapped up in his, even to the point where they saw/see Trump as America itself. You can’t have a more dangerous situation than that. Except, of course, if the demagogue has the intellectual firepower and organizational skills to start the process early enough and keep more of it behind closed doors. Trump was just bad at being Il Duce. But, to me, that doesn’t change the fact that attempted a coup and people died because of that.
The next wingnut won’t make the same mistakes.
Billy_TParticipantWatt, at one time, was considered the best D-lineman in the league. At least before AD. Anno Donaldio. Freakish athleticism and drive when young.
If he has any juice left — I haven’t really paid attention to his career — the Rams should definitely kick the tires. But I would be against a signing if it meant losing Johnson.
Thoughts on Watt?
Billy_TParticipantZooey,
This is spot-on:
If they really wanted to hurt them, they would have brought in witnesses. Witnesses would not only say, “Yeah, we have evidence that there were contacts between the WH and the Proud Boys,” they would also end up inevitably talking about what they know about the Capitol police’s complicity, and the tours of the building given by the fascist boys Jordan, Gosar, Gaetz and others the day before. Cruz and Hawley would be dragged into it. The Democrats had the ability in their hands to smack a deadly blow to the GOP. They didn’t. I speculated earlier as to Why, but they could have dragged the entire thing out in the open, and blown the top off the GOP. Instead, they declined to call witnesses, and made it very clear in their arguments that the congress was NOT on trial, only Trump, trying to give them an Out. It IS theatre, and they DO want to deal a blow, but unlike…the police, say…they are only interested in restraining the GOP, not executing it.
The Dems are forever bringing Roberts Rules of Order to a gun fight.
And, as usual, the GOP goes for the jugular. The Trump team of Mob lawyers had no scruples regarding going after the entire Democratic party. But the Dems continue(d) to try to make this only about Trump. They should have, and could have, destroyed the entire GOP, as you say, for direct and indirect complicity in a fascist coup.
I have no real idea why, just theories.
P.S. What’s with Cruz, Graham and Lee meeting, more than once, with Trump’s defense team? Why is that allowed?
Billy_TParticipantCovid sidenote:
Watching the proceedings. They’re being pretty good about masks, until they go up to the mic. Then they remove it and start to talk.
No one is wiping down the mic or the area before a new speaker holds forth.
I’d be very surprised if there aren’t some brand new cases of Covid, due to this oversight.
Billy_TParticipantAlso, while pretty much every politician lies up a storm, no one in history has ever come close to Trump. And his lies kill. The Dems just aren’t in the same universe when it comes to that.
Above and beyond the usual lies of omission our media tend to ignore, Trump was documented with more than 30,000 instances while president.
Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims as president. Nearly half came in his final year.
I feel like a massive weight is lifted from me now, just to be able to deal again with the usual political bullshit. While Trump was in office, we had all of that plus his own epic, never-before-seen level of mendacity, sadism and sociopathology.
Billy_TParticipantThe whataboutism employed by Trump’s third-stringers entirely missed the context in each case. There was no attempt to set it in context, or extend the quotes to include what was relevant. If they had done so, their BS would have been exposed.
And in no case did the Dems in question try to provoke actual violence. Trump did, and has from Day One. Repeatedly. Knowingly. Knowing that he was provoking fascists, neo-nazis, etc. etc.
And you know, WV, as a lawyer, you can’t mount an effective case for your client by saying, “But judge, lotsa people break the law!!”
What other people have done isn’t germane in this case. It’s about Trump. If they want to put those Dems on trial for what they did or said, win back Congress and go for it.
That’s not a defense of the Dems. That’s a defense of reality, in my view.
I agree with you about the entire system being horrible. But there’s a difference between the Dem wing versus the GOP and Trump. A difference worth caring about, IMO. Biden stopped the XL pipeline, for instance, reversed dozens of Trump’s earth-killing orders, stopped our support of the Saudi’s war in Yemen, and is actually trying to defeat the pandemic. Environmentalists are hopeful, for the first time in years, that progressive change is possible.
While we’re stuck with capitalism and empire, I think it matters which wing of the Money Party is in charge, and that neither wing attempts a violent coup.
Hope all is well in West Virginia.
Billy_TParticipantAnd I say the above as someone who has evolved over time regarding the criminal justice system overall. I think jail should be limited to violent criminals, only. No drug stuff, no non-violent, “victimless” offenses. All of that should be legalized, IMO, and if rehab is needed, that should be provided by the public sector.
If there’s a way to make amends through (serious) public service outside of jail, that’s the way to go. In short, it should be a last resort. Everything short of jail should be tried first.
Trump’s actions, however, going back to his first election race, where he tried to set up this same sort of thing if he had lost to Clinton, consistently included threats of violence, and all too often led to them. His words and deeds merit that rare use of jail, IMO. Easily.
Billy_TParticipantRepublicans, on the other hand, are sticking with Trump no matter the consequences because they simply can’t imagine a world in which they have to appeal to anything beyond white identity to win elections.
Another point of interest here is that the Democrats aren’t calling in witnesses. The GOP was shitting itself at the prospect, and my guess is that is because witnesses would have testified about who knew what and when, exposing the complicity (or outright support) of the Capitol police and several GOP congressmen, both in the House and Senate. It would have ripped the GOP in half, and decimated the party. But they would not have gone down without taking as many Democrats as possible down with them by bringing up ANYTHING they had on them, no matter how irrelevant to the Jan. 6 incident. I suspect the Dems caved on this in order to preserve “stability.” But that’s just armchair speculation. They have certainly been very careful to confine the case to Trump alone, however, and even tried to make the case that the GOP is not responsible as a whole.
I think the Dems did an excellent job overall with their presentation, but witnesses likely would have made it better. You make good points by saying they may have feared some sort of general exposure of non-germane issues. Who knows?
But my earlier take has only been solidified. Trump should have been arrested on January 6th, along with Nosferatu, Gosar, Cawthorne, Taylor-Greene, Boebert, Gohmert and anyone who worked for/with Trump to foment the coup. In fact, it’s appalling to me still that he’s able to walk about as if he didn’t use violence to cling to power. He did. And there’s not a shadow of doubt about that for me.
Whether folks despise Biden, see him as “meh,” or support him, is irrelevant. This is about Trump’s endless criminality and sociopathic actions. Not throwing him in jail for what he’s done just sets the table for a smarter, more clever, more “subtle” coup leader in the future, and that’s going to come from the far-right again.
That means POCs and “the left” will be in even more (existential) danger next time.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantReport: Lions initially asked Rams for Aaron Donald in Matthew Stafford trade
for some reason it pisses me off that they would even have the balls to ask for aaron.
i know holmes comes from the rams and so maybe it was tongue in cheek. but still.
i’m seething right now.
Yeah, that ticks me off, too. Could be the Rams are getting a rep for being easy marks, when it comes to trades. That’s not good, obviously.
Again, they gave up waaay too much, IMO, for Stafford. But even the suggestion that the Rams would swap Donald for a QB? Get back to me on that one in 2023 or 2024, when Donald is 32/33. And then only for a Mahomes, Herbert, Allen or another young (Top Three) gunslinger.
Billy_TParticipantNot too many better combos in NFL history, on the outside, than Bruce and Holt. And, of course, the Rams didn’t stop there. The only thing they lacked, really, to make the other team just concede before the kickoff was a great tight end. Throw in a Kelce, Gonzalez, or a Billy Truax, and the Greatest Show on Turf would have turned into a full-on circus of horrors for opposing teams.
Holt should have made it, and this must has pissed off SanfRAM to no end. He was a huge Holt fan from Day One.
There’s always next year.
Billy_TParticipantWill Stafford upgrade and open up the offense? I’d bet on yes. But enough to lose Goff, and three draft picks, two of them being First Rounders?
yeah. that’s what i’m wondering myself.
the way some people talk about him he’s the next brett favre.
we’ll see. it was a lot to give up.
i will say that some very respected football minds really do like him. bruce arians being one of them. that caught my attention. and apparently shanahan really wanted him too.
we’ll see.
Yeah, I’ve actually been surprised that this trade wasn’t universally condemned by all the pundits. It just strikes me, frankly, as nutz, but some folks who study the game for a livin’ like it, apparently. So, who knows?
Just more amateur GM stuff, I know, but was thinking about a different kind of move they could have tried:
Go after a much younger QB, like Justin Hebert, for that same package. Would the Chargers have done that? The kid is just a freak of nature, and played extremely well as a rook. A legit 6’6″, with sub-4.7 speed, big hands, solid athleticism, and an Academic all-American (biology) . . . the latter is a key for me.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda stuff. But I wonder if they at least considered that route. I would have greatly preferred it.
Billy_TParticipantIMO, this isn’t a question of who’s the better QB right now. It’s Stafford. But, also IMNSHO, the difference just isn’t enough to warrant what was given up for him. I’d also say that when Goff was playing well, he was as good as, or better than, Stafford. And that was basically for the Rams’ entire Super Bowl year and parts of all his other seasons.
Will Stafford upgrade and open up the offense? I’d bet on yes. But enough to lose Goff, and three draft picks, two of them being First Rounders? No. Not in a million years. They gave up enough to get an elite QB, DE, LT, Corner, etc. Top three, at least. That’s not Stafford. Stafford is good, not elite. And he’s not young. Give up a king’s ransom for a player, and he should be entering his prime, not looking at the back nine of his career, etc.
And the more we’re learning about the circumstances of this trade, the more it sounds like McVay’s idea all the way. So if it pans out, he rightfully gets credit. But if it doesn’t, we really don’t need to scramble around, trying to figure out who did what, etc. This is McVay’s baby — it appears — from start to finish.
Obviously, I hope he’s right about this.
Billy_TParticipantI guess the Legend, John Wolford,
is a back-up QB, again.His star didnt quite reach Massey level.
w
vOr the Hedgehog’s.
Of course, no Ram will ever be as deservedly famous as Billy Truax. I’ve been trying to get him carved into Mount Rushmore for years.
Billy_TParticipantLotsa good comments from all of youze.
Mobility. From my memory of watching Stafford, and then double-checking his Combine staff, I’d bet Goff is actually more mobile, and has taken fewer hits.
Stafford does have the better arm. Possibly by a lot. But he’s also streaky, and can make dumb throws at times, like Goff.
I’m honestly not seeing enough of a difference to warrant the trade, even One for One. And the age difference is important, IMO. As mentioned, I’d do it if the Lions had given the Rams a pick. And, of course, to get that salary relief. But for two #Ones and a #Third?!?! No way on earth would this particular amateur GM do that. Not even . . .
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with MarsNot evah.
Hope I’m wrong. And cuz I have a good track record for that, I shouldn’t worry. But, when I read about the trade lastnight, I was shouting into the void all kinds of @#$%&! and @#$%&!. Luckily, I’ve learned Grawlix, so my neighbors couldn’t really tell.
Billy_TParticipantAnd another thing — apologies if this has already been mentioned:
Wanna find the fastest way to drive down the value of your own trade asset? Trash him publicly, or, at best, damn him with faint praise. Talk up how unsure you are about him being around much longer. Then seek a trade.
That’s just beyond stupid, and no doubt thrilled the Lions to hear.
Of all the questionable things the Rams FO has done in recent times, this takes the burnt cake. I can’t find, from any angle, a single aspect of this that makes any sense, much less points to intelligent management.
Is there a sports acronym for SNAFU?
Billy_TParticipantI like Stafford’s game. He has arm talent is in excess of Goff’s. But, game in, game out, his track record is meh. Yeah, you can blame a lot of that on his surroundings. But not all of it.
If I had to choose between either QB for right now, I’d take Stafford. But he’ll turn 33 next month, so I wouldn’t choose him over Goff to “build a team around.” Goff turns 27 in October. I’m taking him for the future.
But what I find truly appalling is how much the Rams gave up in this trade. To me, it really should have been a one to one swap, at most. In fact, the Lions should have given the Rams a draft pick. Instead, the Rams made a trade, in terms of value given away, for a perennial All-Pro, in the top five, league-wise, at least. That’s not Stafford.
Dumb, dumb, dumb trade. And the Rams basically mortgaged their future on this one.
Billy_TParticipantWell, after two days of mulling it over, I still think what I said on the 28th is brilliant. It’s in the stratosphere above all other sports commentary on the Rams. I mean it’s as if I were . . . um . . . well, divinely inspired, or something.
But I’ll add this, too. This all should have been handled “in house,” and we shouldn’t know about any of it, until after a trade or trades. It’s just not professional to blab this all over the place, though I’m not sure who said what to whom.
I’m also wondering, in connection with the threads about coaching losses, if the real issue is that McVay/Snead don’t seem to like hiring from within all that much. That can tend to kill morale too. Zooey might be onto something about staff not particularly liking to work for McVay/Snead, but I’m hoping it’s just the lack of insider hiring. That can be fixed.
Who knows? Has the hype gone to ‘ees ‘ed? As some British bloke likely never said. Or is this all just an upstart mountain within a much older mountain range?
Anyway, I think we’ll learn a hell of a lot more during the Combine and FA.
Hope all is well with youze guys.
Billy_TParticipantJust guessing: Goff has a confidence issue. You don’t motivate an insecure athlete by saying his status is insecure, especially in public. And if the idea is to get him to reduce his salary — so you can trade him — why would he do that? If he wants to stay with the Rams, why would he make it easier for the Rams to trade him — if that’s even possible? And, as others have mentioned, athletes don’t give back money, except in very rare scenarios. This is known, as Missandei would say.
Another guess: The Rams offense and Goff were at their best when they had the following:
1. A healthy Gurley to open up the passing game, cuz he scared the hell out of defenses. Rare athlete, with size and legit track speed.
2. A true vertical threat to open up the underneath passing game, especially for Woods and Kupp. Watkins and Cooks gave them that.
3. An O-line they could count on to protect GoffThe most generous way to look at the above, IMO, is that the Rams now lack two of three. Less than generous is that the O-line is too inconsistent to help Goff’s mental state.
To me, the Rams FO screwed up by paying Gurley and Goff too soon. It should be baked into the pie that football players get seriously hurt, and contracts need to reflect that. Running backs, especially. Running backs who come into the league with knee issues more than especially.
(I loved the Gurley pick, and rooted for him from Day One. He was the best running back in the league for at least two seasons, but it was never gonna last. The Rams FO should have taken its time and paid him when they needed to, not two years early. Same with Goff.)
Anyway . . . on balance, I’m good with the trajectory of this team, but I also think they’ve made some serious mistakes that were avoidable. Hope I’m wrong, but it looks like they may be at it again.
Billy_TParticipantAs I’ve gotten older — and hopefully wiser — I’ve changed my mind a bit about the relative importance of coaching. Used to weight it far behind player talent. Not so anymore. I still think you win with superior athletic talent, and that it’s the most important factor, but that coaching talent is close.
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Andy Reid’s career is interesting. For so long he was “the good coach who couldnt win the big one.” Kinda like Shottenheimer or maybe Robinson for the Rams.
Enter Mahommes.
Now Reid is Mr Hall of fame coach.
I think it will interesting to see what Belichick
can do over the next few years, without Brady.w
vYeah, as the young kids used to say, That’s what I’m talking about.
I think a great coach can help a mediocre bunch of players “win.” But he can’t get them to the Super Bowl. In my view, pretty much never. In a game as physically and athletically demanding as NFL football, it’s just not gonna happen. At least in this era. Maybe 60 years ago, when training, diet (etc.) was hit and miss, but not now.
At the same time, a mediocre coach can degrade a superior group of athletes, screw with their heads, put them in the wrong position, fail to utilize their gifts, talents and so on. He can create a bad atmosphere so the players just don’t give a damn.
In short, I (basically) think the coach has a greater (potential) impact on the downside than the upside, relative to the import of the players themselves. But the flow goes back and forth, obviously. And, again, coaching really does matter a ton.
So I’ll take a good coach with a great team over a great coach with a good team eight days a week and twice on Sunday. When I was younger, though, I would have been fine with an even larger gap between players and coaches.
Brady? He just defies belief at this point. I don’t get it. I would have written him off before the season started. He proved me wrong (and right, in a way).
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