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Billy_TParticipant
The thinking is, which goes back at least to Locke’s, that land that has not been “improved” — as in, made profitable — doesn’t really belong to anyone — yet. It belongs to the first person who makes it profitable. And it’s somehow righteous to take that land away from people or tribes or a nation that doesn’t try to “improve” it. It’s righteous to demand that it be handed over to virtuous men and women who will turn it into profit, through development and/or exchange.
If it’s just sitting there, for all Americans to, you know, look at and enjoy, then no one really owns it and it’s ripe for the taking. Because nothing has any “value” if it can’t yield profits or be sold for profits — or both.
A truly destructive mindset, and one that the American ruling class has perfected, based on the English ruling class’s model, primarily.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantThis article (from Salon) talks about a present-day situation which is basically the fruit of Locke’s views on property. The drive to take our public lands away from us, hand them over to the states, so the states can sell them off to private interests, is Locke’s view in a nutshell — refined via right-libertarian myths and capitalism’s internal logic.
Grow or Die. If you have maxed out on the geographical unification of private markets, you have to go after the public sphere.
For their next trick, Republican magicians will make your federal land disappear
“All Americans have the right to experience and enjoy” federally managed lands, Tania Lown-Hecht of the Outdoor Alliance added. By contrast, “state lands are not public, and are governed by different rules than federal public lands. You don’t have a right to be on state lands, or the same rights as to how they are managed and sold.“
But the most important reason of all is money.
“The federal government has the resources to manage those lands,” Sterling said. The federal government has deeper coffers and can run at a deficit in lean times, which states can’t do.
“States are also required to balance their budgets — meaning if they have a budget crisis (say, due to wildfires), they would be forced to sell off formerly public lands to balance the budget,” Lown-Hecht explained.
And it’s this possibility — that states which have gained ownership over this land will eventually sell it to raise money — that is driving this entire campaign. Pulling back the curtain, one finds that the movement to transfer federal lands to state ownership is being funded and driven by conservative business groups that want that land to be turned over to corporate interests to be exploited for profit, even if doing so destroys the environment.
“The politicians and corporations pushing this agenda are doing it under the false pretenses of states rights,” Brad Brooks of the Wilderness Society argued, “knowing states can never afford to manage the land, and that states can sell off their lands, unlike public lands.”
July 5, 2016 at 9:05 am in reply to: Media Silent as Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting in Progress at a South Car #47890Billy_TParticipantThe article from the New Yorker I linked to above was an eye-opener for me. Tipped off about it from a radio interview, it’s kinda altered some of my focus. While I still think it’s very important to ban all semi-automatics, all “assault” weapons, all military-style weaponry, convertible or not, the more immediate danger to the health and well-being of Americans is conceal carry and its proliferation. The more immediate danger is the highly successful campaign to bring guns into every possible, day to day situation we encounter. It’s just sheer madness.
If we don’t stop this movement, we’re going to have guns at sporting events, at concerts, in bars, in schools, churches, grocery stores — with no place to escape from them. And what this will mean is that anger will escalate to shooting rather than shouting. Anger will escalate to shooting rather than a few punches thrown. Anger will escalate from bloody lips to body bags. And it will be as common as colds and flu in December.
We’re heading down a path of no return, and the gun industry is loving every second of it as it laughs all the way to the bank.
July 4, 2016 at 6:32 pm in reply to: Media Silent as Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting in Progress at a South Car #47876Billy_TParticipantWhat the conceal-carry folks don’t ever want people to know is this: The vast majority of the time that someone pulls a gun in “self-defense,” there never would have been any escalation into deadly violence in the first place if not for guns.
99 times out of 100, you’d get a scuffle, a fist-fight, then everyone goes home, alive. Sore, perhaps, with bloody lips. But they get to go home and live to fight another day.
Conceal carry culture, however, says, no to all of that. It says, “Let’s skip the fist-fights and just go straight to DEFCON 1 and kill each other.”
This is what happened with Tayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. If no gun, they both go home alive. Zimmerman goes home after getting his butt kicked by a sixteen-year-old, and that sixteen-year-old gets to live to go to his prom, graduate, maybe go on to college, get married and so on. But because Zimmerman had a gun, he doesn’t. He’s dead.
I was a bouncer when young. I broke up numerous drunken brawls. Today, now that 50 states have conceal carry, and some even allow guns in bars, those brawls may soon become a thing of the past. Quaint, even. Folks won’t throw fists at each other. They’ll just go straight to semi-automatics and gun each other down.
It’s time to radically reverse all of the deadly business of the gun cultists and the gun industry they work for. All of it.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
July 4, 2016 at 6:25 pm in reply to: Media Silent as Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting in Progress at a South Car #47875Billy_TParticipantCan’t remember if I posted this here already or not:
Important article on the conceal carry movement:
Making a Killing The business and politics of selling guns. By Evan Osnos
ars in the Old City neighborhood of Philadelphia let out at 2 A.M. On the morning of January 17, 2010, two groups emerged, looking for taxis. At the corner of Market and Third Street, they started yelling at each other. On one side was Edward DiDonato, who had recently begun work at an insurance company, having graduated from Villanova University, where he was a captain of the lacrosse team. On the other was Gerald Ung, a third-year law student at Temple, who wrote poetry in his spare time and had worked as a technology consultant for Freddie Mac. Both men had grown up in prosperous suburbs: DiDonato in Blue Bell, Pennsylvania, outside Philadelphia; Ung in Reston, Virginia, near Washington, D.C.
Everyone had been drinking, and neither side could subsequently remember how the disagreement started; one of DiDonato’s friends may have kicked in the direction of one of Ung’s friends, and Ung may have mocked someone’s hair. “To this day, I have no idea why this happened,” Joy Keh, a photographer who was one of Ung’s friends at the scene, said later.
The argument moved down the block, and one of DiDonato’s friends, a bartender named Thomas V. Kelly IV, lunged at the other group. He was pushed away before he could throw a punch. He rushed at the group again; this time, Ung pulled from his pocket a .380-calibre semiautomatic pistol, the Kel-Tec P-3AT.
Billy_TParticipantYes, that is interesting about the Comanche. It might make a good thread all on its own?
;>)
That said, and again, did you read the two articles by Professor Quiggin, or the book I mentioned? Any comments about the articles, specifically? Or about Locke’s theories about property and his own exploitation of the slave trade, in general?
Billy_TParticipantOr this one:
And this one pretty much says it all:
Billy_TParticipantZN,
Your plant with the big bad teeth pic bothered me a great deal. If I had some power here, I would have accidentally obliterated that thread, just to get rid of that pic. I vote for no more human-eating plant pics, regardless, and I think I’m going to start a social justice campaign just to make sure you don’t do it again. Kinda like this one:
Billy_TParticipantCorn is coming in fast too. First planting was Mirai, second year seed. Over 90% germination. Well worth the price.
Are you a farmer? I respect that line of work a great deal. Small farmers, especially. Not that I have anything against really tall farmers. Or care about that one way or another.
;>)
Anyway, I wish America could go back to being a nation of small, family farms, self-employed artisans, craftspersons and direct producers.
Billy_TParticipantFor example what is the Comanche view on owning a horse?
Interesting question right there.
True. Without looking it up, and going just from memory, I don’t think they thought of it in terms of ownership — at least not personal ownership. Horses belonged to the tribe, and were for tribal use. Collective, etc.
But, again, I’d need to go back and research that.
Billy_TParticipantWell we differ on that.
Did you read the two articles I linked to? And have you read The Origin of Capitalism? The far-reaching and nuanced historical analysis is in both.
Frankly, I didn’t get that from the Stanford encyclopedia article, and it’s “reductive” as well. It has to be, given its format.
Of course, we’re both constrained here by limitations on space and time. As was the Stanford article, etc.
Billy_TParticipantThe “improvement” of land was big for Locke and his followers as well. Like “property,” their idea of “improvement” was quite radical as well:
First, he invokes his usual claim that there is plenty of land for everybody, so appropriating some land for agriculture can’t be of any harm to the hunter-gatherers. This is obviously silly. It might conceivably be true for the first agriculturalist (though on standard Malthusian grounds there is no reason to suppose this), or the second or the fiftieth, but at some point the land must cease to be sufficient to support the preexisting hunter-gatherer population. At this point, well before all land has been acquired by agriculturalists, his theory fails.
Locke must surely have known his claim to be false, not as a matter of abstract reasoning, distant history, but in terms of contemporary fact. His Treatises on Government were published in 1689, a year after the outbreak of King William’s War (the North American theatre of the Nine Years War). The core issue in this war, as in a string of earlier conflicts, was control of the fur trade, the most economically significant form of hunter-gatherer activity. But underlying that was the general pressure arising from the steady expansion of European agriculture into lands previously owned by Indian tribes.
As a capitalist, and shareholder in American businesses such as the (slaveholding) Bahama Adventurers, Locke could scarcely have been unaware of these facts. Indeed he refers in the Treatise to American contacts who gave him his information.
Locke’s real defense is that regardless of whether there is a lot or a little, uncultivated land is essentially valueless. All, or nearly all, the value, he says, comes from the efforts of the farmers who improve the land. Since God gave us the land to improve, it rightfully belongs to those who improve it.
Billy_TParticipantI don’t like reductive political blog-itorials, no matter what their orientation.
Locke on property is a very complex issue and does not reduce to the things being said here.
And I have no agenda in this other than that of preferring far-reaching and nuanced historical analysis over any of its opposites.
Of course it’s complex. And the articles I posted deal with it in that way. My own comments were not an attempt to reduce that complexity, but to highlight key elements. And I think those key element point to “far-reaching and nuanced historical analysis,” etc. etc. They open up a wealth of new ways to assess how we got to this point in time, with the legal and social structures now in place. They show the foundation for a rather pernicious view of “property” and the logical results stemming from that view.
Billy_TParticipantZN,
Thanks. Good article and spot on. But I fear the facts will fall on deaf ears. Trump’s supporters will either ignore the above, or just see it all as a part of the conspiracy against them.
The really sad thing is that Clinton will likely ignore Trumka’s message as well. As did Obama. The Dems were once the party of unions and working people, but started to abandon them after the 1960s. Little by little, they embraced the Reagan/Thatcher revolution, with this becoming party orthodoxy under Clinton. Obama has “naturalized” that position.
The GOP didn’t have to abandon working people, because they never supported them in the first place, though, largely due to their support of “White Identity politics,” they’ve captured them from the Dems.
In short, neither wing of the duopoly gives a damn about working people or the poor. I’d say Trump and the GOP are worse on this issue. But there is no viable “champion” in the race.
It’s beyond tragic.
Billy_TParticipantIf it did not make a profit, it was not their “property” per se. No one really “owned” it and it could be taken from the person who did not make a profit from it.
An arbitrary and self-serving conception of property.
I like it.
My neighbor has some under-utilized cherry trees in his back yard. I think I’ll appropriate his back yard and sell some pies.
Yeah, I mean, he’s just letting them grow and stuff, instead of selling the fruit to Walmart. He needs to be punished for that!!
Billy_TParticipantHe hasn’t lied to me. He hasn’t enriched himself via government ‘service’. He stands for much of the Buchanan 2000 agenda which has been proven to be prescient. People have had enough.
On the part in bold. He hasn’t been in public service yet, but he’s running for president now. He has said that, once in power, he will slash taxes on the rich and on their estates. As mentioned, this will mean tens of millions in extra money for him and his children. As in, Trump says he will do things that directly enrich himself — while failing to admit to this.
And throughout his entire career as a businessman, he has taken advantage of numerous government programs/laws/regulations involving outsourcing jobs, making his own debt “pay,” bouncing back from his frequent bankruptcies, when the average Joe or Jane could not.
Again, he has no history of helping working people, and every opportunity to do so. Why do you trust him to suddenly change on that issue, if he wins the White House?
Billy_TParticipantNittany,
From your description of his stance versus people like Dawkins, whom I’ve read (The God Delusion), I’d side with Myers. Atheism should definitely be a part of the “social justice” movement, and embrace feminism and be against Islamophobia, etc. Seems like a slam dunk to me.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantSo Locke’s theories on property were created with his circumstances in mind. They serve him and his situation with little regard for anyone else. The mantra of libertarianism – “I got mine so fuck everyone else.”
Yes. Very true.
It’s important to note than he was among the first to consider “property” and ownership of property in this way:
If it did not make a profit, it was not their “property” per se. No one really “owned” it and it could be taken from the person who did not make a profit from it. He tried to make this a “moral” issue as well, pushing the idea that failure to generate profit from the land was immoral, and meant it was righteous to take it away — from Native peoples, small farmers, “peasants” and the like. This helped spur capitalist appropriation of land from “traditional” cultures (like India) which had a totally different concept of “ownership.” Common ownership. Communal. Cooperative. This also applied to Ireland and the Americas.
While this concept initially focused on land, and land use, it also set the table for a revolutionary concept of production. Who owned one’s own direct production? Capitalism created, for the first time ever, a legal and social structure that said, “Tom, as capitalist owner, can own the production of Ned, Bill, Jane, Mary, Jack, Barbara” and so on. The pre-capitalist world just had no conception of “ownership” like this.
Capitalism is based on slavery, in essence. On the same concept that one human being can own others, their bodies, their time, their production — and what was once their land.
Billy_TParticipantThanks, Nittany. Good article. That’s PZ Myers, correct? If memory serves, he’s really good on the topic of creationism versus evolution.
Billy_TParticipantAnother key: Our trade deals are bad primarily because they keep deregulating Capital. They offer no labor protections, or protections for the environment. This allows American corporations to ship jobs overseas, exploit workers there even more than they do here, and then sell cheap products back to Americans — still the best market in the world, though soon to be replaced by China, India and other developing nations.
Trump tries to paint the picture of evil countries stealing our jobs, and how America is letting them all get away with murder. He demagogues about people in foreign nations supposedly taking away our jobs, when it’s really American corporations doing that, with the help of government policies. You’ll never hear Trump pointing to the real causes of declining wages, rising inequality and poverty, and so on. He just wants his supporters to focus all of their attention on helpless, powerless, impoverished people in foreign lands, and members of that same class here. He does everything he can to deflect attention from the real culprits:
Plutocrats like himself.
Billy_TParticipantOr to put that different, there is absolutely no case in our history wherein tax cuts for the rich have resulted in growth in jobs and wages.
The wealthy invest money to make money off of money.
This fantasy that they use it to invest or propel the economy is an old belief ranking right up there with fear of witches.
Very true. Again, if they could make their money without hiring a single worker, they would. They’ve been pushing for that dream since the Industrial Revolution and the first assembly lines. A lot of people never really think about it, but more people were employed before capitalism became economic hegemon. Almost everyone was their own boss, too. Capitalism came along and with automation, assembly lines and new technologies, could use ten people to do the work thousands once did, in their own local, separate, autonomous markets.
The inevitable math of capitalism has always been to radically reduce jobs by getting more and more work out of each individual worker, along with automating their work out of existence. And capitalists always want the largest possible army of the unemployed, to suppress wages and kill leverage for workers. They buy political systems to ensure this as well.
Where was the massive jobs program when the world economy collapsed in 2008? It never happened. Primarily because that would have given far too much leverage and power back to workers.
Trump represents the interests of Capital. He couldn’t care less about workers.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantIt is definitely the case that our current trade policies are toxic. But this has always been the American Way. It’s always been the American Way to screw over workers, because the American Way is the Capitalist Way, and the Capitalist Way is to screw workers, consumers and destroy the planet, and it’s set up to do this, and it’s set up to destroy jobs.
Democratic Party or GOP — they both do this. The Democrats did have a short period of time in which they at least put up some resistance to the same old same old — the Keynesian Golden Age, for lack of a better term. We had our one and only Middle Class boom from 1947-1973, with FDR’s New Deal policies at least somewhat embraced and protected during that period. But after that, the Dems abandoned the working class too. And since then, neither party has cared a lick about them. There is zero evidence to support the idea that Trump and the GOP cares about workers in the slightest, and tons of evidence showing they care only about the 1%. Roughly speaking, I think the Dems care only about the richest 10%, with an emphasis on that 1% as well.
Trump isn’t the answer. Nor is Clinton.
Billy_TParticipantBut why, bnw, would you think Trump has any intention of helping working people? He has absolutely no history of doing so. None. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. He’s made his fortune from screwing them over, and outsources the vast majority of his own manufacturing jobs.
He calls for steep tax cuts on the rich, which means he will make a fortune from his own government policies. He will personally be enriched by his actions. He calls for a top rate of 25%, which will net him millions of extra dollars a year. Plus, no more estate tax, which will net his children tens of millions extra.
There is no evidence in the history of American economics whereby tax cuts for the rich have ever — and I mean ever — helped working people. The rich have always just kept that money and increased the gap between themselves and their workers. There is absolutely no case in our history wherein tax cuts for the rich have resulted in a decrease in the gap between rich and poor.
Seriously, why do you have such faith in him? What has he ever done to earn your trust?
Billy_TParticipantBut it is possible we were put here for a purpose…just like it’s possible that 9/11 was carried out by Amish insurgents despite no evidence to support it and a ton of evidence to suggest otherwise. 🙂
Are you sure there isn’t any evidence?
Ohio Amish beard-cutting gang faces unfamiliar life behind bars
Billy_TParticipantIn the novel, Dune, Paul repeats, “Fear is the mind killer.” The full Bene Gesserit litany being:
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
One could also substitute “absolute certainty” for “fear.” If we were certain we knew all, we’d stop using a goodly bit of our minds. This is true for both the religious and the scientific. The best scientists don’t go for absolute certainty, and love mysteries. They know it gives them endless projects to work on. And the best religious minds, like Pascal and Kierkegaard, thought absolute certainty was a delusion. They struggled with their faith on a daily basis, and drew strength from that struggle.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantI would not agree with that. My own view is more ‘agnostic-ish.’
I’d say we dont/cant ‘know’ if life/world/universe was ‘meant to be here.’My own view of fundamental questions like that is “its a mystery”
btw, fwiw, ayahuasca told me once,
that the Universe and the Rams were meant to be here. You gonna argue with ayahuasca?w
vThat has its own sense, too, WV. And it fits in with the “humility” part as well. We’re far too small to know with any certainty, in the grand scheme of things, if there is a grand scheme of things. And mysteries keep us searching, and searching is beautiful.
Pascal has a lot to say about the question(s):
“For after all what is man in nature? A nothing in relation to infinity, all in relation to nothing, a central point between nothing and all and infinitely far from understanding either. The ends of things and their beginnings are impregnably concealed from him in an impenetrable secret. He is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness out of which he was drawn and the infinite in which he is engulfed.”
and . . .
When I consider the short duration of my life, swallowed up in the eternity before and after, the small space which I fill, or even can see, engulfed in the infinite immensity of spaces whereof I know nothing, and which know nothing of me, I am terrified, and wonder that I am here rather than there, for there is no reason why here rather than there, or now rather than then. Who has set me here? By whose order and design have this place and time been destined for me?—Memoria hospitis unius diei prætereuntis.
Billy_TParticipantZN,
Thanks. I already knew I could just copy and paste and that would work somewhat. Was hoping, however, to use code to shrink it down to fit the space given, and maintain the (original) height/width ratio.
On my own site, I can do that — because I’m, well, god there. In the universal settings, and in individual posts. It’s difficult being a mere mortal sometimes.
;>)
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by nittany ram.
Billy_TParticipantBilly_TParticipantPA,
I’m looking forward to it. I think it hits HBO in October.
Here’s another one about the future, robots, genetic manipulation and such. Very good film.
Billy_TParticipantMany people assume humanity is the necessary end-product of evolution. The idea that evolution is directed towards something, instead of being the result of natural selection acting on randomly occurring mutations.
As Stephen Jay Gould once said, if you could rewind life’s tape to a time before humans and then press play, the likelihood that humans would evolve for a second time is incredibly low. We aren’t ‘meant’ to be here. Like every other species that has ever existed, we just got lucky.
Agreed with all the above.
We’re an accident, and we will be “surpassed” in time, or just wiped out, one way or another. I don’t see us having even a fraction of the “success” of the dinosaurs.
Science can teach us to be humble. Art can as well. It can, if we heed it. And while there are all kinds of counter-movements, a very strong pattern through history has been to puncture one mythic balloon after another, slowly but surely moving us away from viewing the earth as central to the universe, as its center, period, and humans as central to existence on earth. Lord and master over all he surveys, etc. etc.
We really need a huge dash of humility, especially given the tech we’ve created and its potential for destruction.
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