bnw wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

zn, your argument is reminiscent of the argument used by gun rights advocates.

I have seen people of faith who do not buy into the fundamentalist program who can handle, with grace and sincere conviction, debates about the irrationality of religion. We all have. So “attacking religion” in general serves very little purpose.

I have seen gun owners who do not buy into the NRA program who can handle with grace and sincere conviction, debates about gun control. We all have. So attacking gun rights serves very little purpose.

Like most gun owners, most people of faith are reasonable people.

But that doesn’t counter the great amount of harm done by a very few hyper-religious people. Pence, Cruz, Santorum etc.

What harm?

The extreme persecution of LGBT folks, including forced “conversion therapy” which has led to suicides.

The Orwellian “religious freedom” laws, which are really just cover for hate-filled bigotry, and establish a foothold for American Sharia.

The persecution of women, primarily via an attack on, if not a destruction of, their personal autonomy and their right to control their own bodies.

The attack on science, especially against the science of climate change, which is a deadly threat to humans, nature and the planet, and one (conveniently) never mentioned at the GOP convention. This attack also takes the form of “creationism,” which religious zealots seek to force onto students, despite the fact that its fairy tales have no place in any science classroom.

For starters.

Zooey wrote:

Carson’s mention of of the Trilateral Satanic Commingling was my favorite part of the convention so far. Probably the only thing I will remember about it in 10 years.

Follow the logic here: Hillary wrote a paper on Saul Alinsky who once off-handedly mentioned Lucifer. Therefore………………. Hillary is in league with Satan.

Awesome.

You know, I keep seeing these articles about how the GOP is imploding.

It’s not imploding.

These people have been saying out loud the most batshit crazy ass shit for YEARS, and it makes no difference. They still love Sarah Palin. I mean…you know…she should have finished off the last shred of respectability of the party of Lincoln long ago. And yet…here they are. These people occupy enough of this country to elect Donald Trump – DONALD TRUMP – as president.

At least the death of the planet will draw big ratings.

Agreed, Zooey. It doesn’t seem to make any difference. The GOP was supposed to be finished after Hoover. It was supposed to be finished after Goldwater. It was supposed to be finished after Reagan’s first term and the terrible recession he had. His own party turned on him and there was talk of running someone else in 1984. It was supposed to be finished after Gingrich left Congress in disgrace. After Dubya’s catastrophic failures. And on and on.

It’s the zombie party with its zombie lies of trickle down awesomeness, its anti-science, creationist fanaticism, its Birthers and Birchers and False Flaggers and tea partiers and white supremacists and on and on. Nothing stops it. Not the serial lies, not the moronic economic and social ideas, not the love of inequality, the love of the suffering of others, not the racism, bigotry or xenophobia. Nothing kills it.

But it’s not only because there are tens of millions of ignorant, reactionary Americans who continuously fall for right-wing lies — Dem or Republican. It’s because the media and the people who own it don’t want it to die. They want to channel the batshit crazies somehow, herd them at least into one known party — the better to control them, I suppose. They have to have somewhere to go and some release valve of sorts.

Also: Alinsky. I don’t think there ever was a nicer, kinder, gentler boogeyman in our history. He worked his entire adult life to help the poor, the downtrodden, the oppressed and was beloved. Demonizing him is kinda like the Brits demonizing Gandhi, though, of course, Alinsky worked on a much, much smaller scale. His comment about Lucifer was tongue in cheek. But the American Taliban doesn’t know tongue in cheek from sharia.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Billy_T.

He’s strictly speaking accurate, b. What they had in the Soviet Union and have in China doesn’t meet the definition of communism. However, communism was never only what Marx said it was. The Soviets and Chinese converted the meaning into a militarized one-party bureaucratic state, and that’s part of the mix in talking about the history of communism.

But from a strict point of view looking at the original definition in Marx, no they weren’t what he called communism.

Personally I don’t think it matters. Depends on the point someone wants to make. The strict definition is real, and it’s fair to measure the Soviets by it, as bt did. But then also history morphs things. Our constitution didn’t set up a corporate dominated oligarchy, either, but here we are.

As you know, “communism” predates Marx. He didn’t invent it. It existed in its modern incarnation before he was born, and in its ur-form, tens of thousands of years before Marx. Humans are actually quite naturally small “c” communists, as David Graeber points out in his book, Debt.

Of course, I wasn’t referring to the ur-form when I noted the above. I was thinking in terms of socialist theory by people like Proudhon, Elisee Reclus, Kropotkin, William Morris, along with dozens of others including Marx. They sometimes used terms like “socialism” and “communism” interchangeably, though usually with modifiers, like “anarchist-communist,” or anarchist-socialist.” Socialism was usually the umbrella term.

Again, as you know, Marx’s theory, drawn from decades of thinkers before him, was that communism followed true socialism, was basically its culmination, after actual socialism became second nature, natural, every day. And it meant no state apparatus was needed to keep true democracy and human emancipation going. No more classes, including no more ruling class.

Other leftists, especially those in the left-anarchist camp, didn’t see the need to go in stages like Marx suggested. They didn’t think it made any sense to have an interum state in order to steer us toward the absence of the state. They basically wanted to go stateless off the bat.

Regardless, Lenin said he had to institute State Capitalism in order to yank Russia into the 20th century. No subsequent dictator ever moved away from that. And some, like Stalin, took it even further away from actual socialism.

wv wrote:

Yeah, this has fascinated and appalled me about humans for many years.

I mean, here you have a Brain Surgeon. A rightwing brain surgeon. Who’s had all kinds of “formal education” — and he believes fervently and sincerely in the devil and jeezus and angels and demons and walking on water and the garden of eden and all the rest.

And millions and millions and millions of other Americans believe all that, too.

I keep raising this issue myself every so often, because i think its one of
the most salient aspects of modern-humans. I dont know quite what to ‘do’
with this point.

Talking monkeys. Technological-wizard monkeys.

w
v

Another aspect of this gets to me as well, WV. How can true-believers reconcile, rationalize or be okay with their god’s frequent genocides? How can they be okay with, for example, their god ordering Joshua to slaughter every man, woman, child, baby and animal in Jericho, all because the people there wouldn’t submit to Yahweh? How could they be okay with their god committing genocide in the Cities of the Plain, and then killing Lot’s wife for merely looking back on it all? Or, bringing death into the world because Adam and Eve ate an apple? Or the flood? Or “hardening Pharaoh’s heart” to prolong the Jews’ stay in Egypt, so there could be a much greater slaughter and a bigger show of Yahweh’s ultimate power? Or, their god’s special deal with satan to torture Job?

Richard Dawkins talks about an experiment by an Israeli psychologist (G. Tamarin) there. He read students two versions of the Joshua story. One group got the standard version from the bible. The other group got one rewritten with Chinese generals and locale. The first group of kids mostly said what their god did was okay and warranted. The second group mostly was appalled.

Forgotten 1963 Survey: Majority Of Israeli Jewish Youth Could Support Genocide Against Arabs

Organized religion, all too often, can make otherwise rational human beings completely, dangerously irrational.

and . . .

As McNamara notes, Greenblatt’s letter does not actually refute Schwartz’s claim that he, not Trump, wrote the book. Instead, Greenblatt writes that Trump “was the source of all of the material in the Book and the inspiration for every word in the Book,” rather than the author. Greenblatt acknowledges that Trump provided Schwartz “with the facts and facets of each of these deals in order for you to write them down.”

On “Good Morning America,” Schwartz told host George Stephanopoulos that “The Art of the Deal” very likely contained “falsehoods” owing to the fact that Trump, in his opinion, has a strong propensity to exaggerate and lie. Greenblatt attacks Schwartz’s statement, arguing that if the book is less than accurate, then Schwartz had breached his obligations as the book’s co-author. In response, Schwartz’s lawyer notes that because Trump takes credit for providing “all of the material in the book,” if there are falsehoods they must have been provided by Trump. “Any purported failure by Mr. Schwartz to be ‘accurate in the completion of [his] duties’ would be entirely because of misleading statements by Mr. Trump,” McNamara writes.

When I don’t pay any attention to either party, it’s pretty easy for me to hold them both in contempt, and not delve into differences. But watching a bit of the convention, reading about it, seeing the various Republicans parade their extremism, hate and ignorance in front of the world . . . . well, it’s not so easy anymore to see them as equally odious. Odious, yes. But not equally so, or for the same reasons.

Actually, it becomes impossible for me. The level of abject stupidity, mindless adherence to hand-me-down urban legends, the frothing at the mouth desire to see others suffer greatly, the belief that there is a “real America” and a false one, and that the former is all white, all Christian . . . . again, it becomes impossible for me to claim there are no differences between the two wings of the duopoly. In short, we truly do have a lesser of two evils scenario in America, and that frustrates the hell out of me.

Watched a bit of Maher’s special convention coverage, belatedly. This morning. Trump’s ghostwriter was on and described Trump as a sociopath again, and said that he has not read a book — other than those ghostwritten for him — in his adult life. And I also learned that he has made it extremely difficult for insiders and former insiders to ever talk about their interactions with him by forcing confidentiality agreements on them, which Tony Schwartz is now fighting.

Donald Trump Threatens the Ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal”

Michael Moore was also on, along with Joy Reid and Dan Savage. Moore said he thinks Trump will win, because he’s managed to con enough of the heartland to do so. And Trump has conned them. If anyone actually believes Trump cares about working class folk, just think about how he made his fortune — on their backs, but shafting them repeatedly. He doesn’t care about you. He’s a sociopath. He cares only about himself.

Zooey wrote:

Yeah, “Make America Work Again” was the stated theme, but they never got around to it. Most everybody just talked about how awful Hillary is. The audience seemed bored, and it’s hard to blame them. Mitch McConnell was uninspiring to say the least, and Ben Carson….

So far the convention has been a fender bender, but it won’t matter unless it gets far worse.

That obsession with Alinsky is so weird. A little old man who never hurt a flea, was beloved by his neighbors for helping the poor and the downtrodden . . . and he’s among the biggest boogeymen on the right.

Carson has a problem with Alinsky “acknowledging” Lucifer, even though he did it in the context of calling him a mythical being. Carson and the religious right, OTOH, “acknowledge” him all the time, and they actually believe he exists. Their god acknowledged him too, and cut a deal with him to torture Job — if one takes the bible literally, etc. etc.

I am diametrically opposed to both parties, their stranglehold on the country, their monopoly — which should be subject to antitrust breakup, and would be, if they didn’t control the system . . . That said, I can’t help but see the GOP as far more odious than the odious Dems. Again, same masters. Both parties serve capitalism and empire through endless wars, coups, the expansion of the security state and economic apartheid, etc. etc. . . . . but, to me, the GOP really is worse. The far right really is worse than the center right, IMO.

snowman wrote:

fact checking the speakers at yesterday’s convention, not that anyone expects people at a convention to actually be truthful or anything…
GOP speakers day 2 fact check

Both parties are filled with liars. But the GOP turns it into an art form. And they nominated a serial liar, who lies to whip white America into frothing anger against black and brown people. Goddess, America is so screwed.

I can’t stand either party. But between the two, I’d say the Dems are at least “sane.” The GOP isn’t. It’s clearly psychotic. And welcomes a motley assortment of racists, homophobes, xenophobes, conspiracy nuts — Alex Jones had his own little mini-convention there — and all around sociopaths. The Dems are mostly cowardly and craven. But the Republicans are outright demented.

They really aren’t the same, though they have the same masters.

Two rotten choices. Truly rotten. But one is clearly worse, in my view.

Chatting: In the context of the real world . . . yes. It doesn’t matter if this or that person won’t deal with criticism about their chosen candidate. At least not enough to worry about. But in the context of a political forum, it can make fruitful discussion very difficult. Often pointless.

Which reminds me of a very funny back and forth between Varys and Tyrion on the road to Meereen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AC64i75Rvc

In paraphrase:

Varys: Are we really going to spend all of our time talking about futility?
Tryion: You’re right. There isn’t any point.

;>)

Well, bnw, you might not care. You might think all criticism of Trump is meaningless. But a lot of people do care. They don’t dismiss all criticism of Trump automatically. They don’t close their eyes and ears to all of it. They investigate, see him on TV, listen to him on the radio, try to sift through his word salad. They read his incredibly vague policy ideas, his tendency to avoid all details, and note that none of his policies could possibly work. They also take him at his word, and see him as a racist, xenophobe and Mussolini-wannabe. They see him as a serial liar and someone who has exploited bankruptcy laws and protections to fill his own pockets, and that he has hundreds of outstanding lawsuits against him due to his crooked business practices.

Even his own party has been highly critical of him. GOP delegates called him a fascist today, at the convention.

It may be a big yawn for you, but a lot of people don’t see it that way. Me, personally? I think he’s either a baby fascist or plays one on TV for votes and for personal enrichment. He’s taken his cue from George Wallace, among others, seeking to whip up white fears of black and brown people. Basically, I see him as a vile human being. Easily one of the worst people to ever run for president — and that’s saying a lot, because America has a long history of rotten people vying for the presidency.

I don’t like Clinton, either. Can’t stand either party. But Trump is clearly the greater evil this time around.