wv wrote:

joemad wrote:

“”””My guess is few people here will go out of their way to see it, but I think you should. Just watched it and it surprised me.

For most of this campaign, when I tuned in to see her, I found her to be rather wooden, with her shields up, mostly incapable of connecting on a human level with her audience. Too wonky, etc. Not really all that comfortable in her own skin, etc.

But this speech, which may be her last in public? She did connect. The crowd seemed to be really moved. Her tone was just right, IMO, and her words were gracious and, at least relative to her political peers, “classy.” If Clinton had been like this from the start, I think we might have had a different election result.”””

Many thought the same thing on Gore’s concession speech in 2000.

————–
I have a personal pet-peeve. I keep hearing over and over that Hillary Clinton is a “policy WONK”. Shes virtually ALWAYS painted as a real intellectual wonk.

I dont see her that way at all. I see her as someone cultivating that particular image, and then more subtly cultivating an image of a “policy wonk who is trying hard to be more than that”.

I dont consider her an intellectual. I consider her a privileged, ambitious, politician who has access to a gazillion think-tanks full of pollsters, number-crunchers, propagandists, media experts, fashion consultants, and campaign co-ordinators.

I think she’s more of a ‘figurehead’ than a ‘Bill Walsh type’ in other words.

Just my opinion.

w
v

WV,

I don’t consider her an intellectual, either. Generally speaking, I don’t think “wonky” equates to that. A person who knows a ton about plastic model cars, for instance, and can spout tons of stats about make, model, year, etc. etc. can sound really “wonky,” but wouldn’t really rate as an “intellectual.” Of course, they might be that too. But the ability to relay stats, even esoterica, about this or that, isn’t a sign, IMO.

So I separate surface expertise from being an actual intellectual. That goes much, much deeper. That said, behind the scenes, away from the public, she very well might be too. I really have no idea. But I’ve never associated policy wonkery with that.

Just sayin’.

waterfield wrote:

Couldn’t agree with you more Billy. I doubt it would have really made a difference. But I do think it is a speech that young adolescents should watch. I hope my 12 yr old grandson can see it. Your right-the connection was there. What I’m most afraid of is that this could lead toward people becoming more and more isolated and hopeless and not wanting to participate in our process of governance-much like the post Kennedy assassination. Our young people are really are only hope to overcome the power of the uneducated white rural vote-who simply want to shatter the system and return to the 50s.

One very dangerous aspect of this country, W, was made all the more apparent by Trump:

Too many Americans want to be led by the nose. Too many Americans are okay with baby fascists like Trump, if that person has the requisite elements for a cult of personality. It’s more than obvious that nothing he said went beyond sloganeering. He never put forth HOW he would do anything. Apparently, his audience just didn’t care. He just kept repeating his slogan-mantras and his bot crowds ate it up.

I don’t want the left to ever sink that low. But it’s going to have to find a way to appeal personally, visually, on a gut level, along with great policies to a majority of voters. It’s going to have to find a way to inspire the young and old, and include everyone in an even bigger multiracial coalition. Centrist, wonky, technocratic politics don’t work. Their day is long gone. The GOP has shown that throwing out red meat to its hungry hordes works. The left needs to find a similar answer, but on a much higher, far more hopeful ground.

zn wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

I have a clear conscience, though. It felt good to cast a vote for Jill Stein and against both major party candidates.

I have clear conscience too. I voted for Clinton.

I don’t have to spell out the reasons, and more than obviously, neither do you.

In no way did I mean to imply that my choice could be universalized. Folks can legitimately say their own “conscience is clear” regardless of whom they voted for. Was just talking about my personal thought process and look inward, etc. etc.

Btw, though it’s going to change and change again many times in the next two weeks or so, it looks right now like Clinton won the popular vote.

Win or lose, GOP, Dem, Socialist, Green, I think it’s waaaay past time we ditch the Electoral College. I’d support that change even if Stein had won the EVs but lost the popular vote this time.

Gotta get rid of it. It’s anti-democratic. It basically voids every vote cast in each state for the “loser,” even though we’re supposed to be electing the nation’s president.

But Trump and his alt-right handlers were smart in this way, especially: They’ve already built in excuses when he fails to deliver on his promises . . .

Just blame everyone else. That’s already baked in, with the “rigged election” and “all media are against me” whines.

You can bet Trump won’t get anything through Congress that wasn’t already in the pre-Trump GOP’s plans. But I think he and the RNC will easily be able to fool Trump voters about the reasons for that failure. After all, they were gullible enough to vote for Trump in the first place.

Eternal Ramnation wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

Eternal Ramnation wrote:

I don’t know guy’s , it really bothers me when you describe Obama or Clinton as Left or even center Left . The Right wing owns all of the media and both Democratic and Republican parties as well as the Libertarians . It’s all just corporate branding

Unless I missed it, no one here has done that, Eternal.

The collective you not you or anyone personally BT. I am basically agreeing with you here:

Billy_T wrote:

Here, on this site, I fear I’ve fallen back into some bad old habits, and I need to take my own advice:

Be a leftist who doesn’t waste any time with endless wingnut bullshit. Gotta stop posting about that aspect of politics, and the end of this crazed election will make that a hell of a lot easier for me.

Thanks for the clarification, ER.

Yeah, I think the right just gets the political spectrum and the media waaay wrong. One aspect of that, IMO, is its (general) conflation of a few “culture war” issues with all of politics. So if the media, or the Dems, come down on the side of things like a woman’s right to choose, or marriage equality, then that supposedly “proves” they’re “far left” on everything. Plus, tragically, even Climate Change has become a culture war thing, when it’s obviously not. It’s science, logic and common sense observations of what humans have done to this planet.

Most of we leftists would agree that the Dems and the Media tilt right on things like economics, capitalism, war, empire, coups, regime change, covert wars, “law and order,” the mass surveillance state, mass incarceration and so on. The establishment tilts right on pretty much everything outside a few socio-cultural things.

In short, from my pov, our two major parties and the MSM range from the center-right to the hard-right now. The actual left, as opposed to the one invented from thin air by the right, has no real representation in our current system.

Eternal Ramnation wrote:

I don’t know guy’s , it really bothers me when you describe Obama or Clinton as Left or even center Left . The Right wing owns all of the media and both Democratic and Republican parties as well as the Libertarians . It’s all just corporate branding

Unless I missed it, no one here has done that, Eternal.

I’ve been saying Obama has governed from the center-right going back to the beginning. I also see the Democratic Party power structure as center-right, and too much of its agenda as “conservative.” HRC may even be more to the right on most issues than Obama. We’ll see.

A possible source of confusion: I did say Democrats run the gamut from center-left to center-right, and I think they do. But I’m talking primarily about citizens, not politicians — not people running the party, etc. In my view, there aren’t that many elected Dems who one could legitimately call “liberal,” and I don’t think the Dems could be accurately called center-left overall since (perhaps) the early 1970s. They’ve been drifting rightward for forty years, and they’ve never, ever been “radical.”

Right-wingers, when I say the above, typically react with some degree of shock. Cuz they have it in their minds the Dems have always been “far left” and are worse now than they were forty years ago. To me, their view is absurd and just doesn’t sync up with historical reality. Though, with the emergence of Sanders (the Indy), I’m hopeful the right-ward slide might be at its end.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.

wv wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

<

WV,

It may sounds weird, but that makes me feel better. Knowing you also have struggles with this stuff.

Most of the time when I read your posts, I’m amazed at their “grounded” aspect. Off the top of my head, it’s like you’re a comedic Yoda and you’ve internalized that old saying our wiser high-school buddies would always write in our yearbooks.

;>)

Anyway, it’s going to be a tremendous relief when this lunacy is over with. Gotta get back to my writing and step up reading as well. Currently reading Alice Kaplan’s Looking for The Stranger. It’s kinda like a biography of a novel. On a bit of a Camus kick at the moment.

——————-
OMG, Billy you have no idea how hard it is for me to even read the titles of rightwing articles or even hear the NAME Bill O’Reilly, etc, etc.

I mean this is serious stuff right. Its not football. Its real life policy stuff that affects who lives and who dies and who gets to live longer and who gets gets dehumanized, etc. Serious stuff. So, yeah, it all grabs me in the Gut and twists me.

So, i can either go nutz and become Mr Hateful Angry Leftist, or i can… find another path.

I try and figure out very quickly when its pointless to go any further and when its not.

And i try to find my happy-place and stay there for as long as i can :>)

I’m reading the “Black Jacobins” btw. Fine book. About the only slave revolution that was successful. The slaves rose up and took over Haiti and fought off the Brits, French and Spanish.

w
v

Again, that’s good to know.

I’m guessing there are several books with that title. Are you talking about the classic by C. L. R James? That’s definitely on my list. Recently bought Frantz Fanon’s The Wretched of the Earth (with an intro by Sartre), which is often listed along with James’ work as seminal, leftist, must-read books.

Gotta get back to my reading. A New Year’s resolution, perhaps. It brings me a great deal of satisfaction, and this current political stuff does the opposite. It’s not healthy for me to take time away from great art, etc. etc.

Hope all is well —

wv wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

Here, on this site, I fear I’ve fallen back into some bad old habits, and I need to take my own advice:

Be a leftist who doesn’t waste any time with endless wingnut bullshit. Gotta stop posting about that aspect of politics, and the end of this crazed election will make that a hell of a lot easier for me.

—————-
I actually have intense negative Italian hot-headed emotions about all the rightwing tactics and stuff, like the Fox crap and Rush Limbaugh/O’Reilly/Hannity/etc crappolla-fest.

My own approach, which has changed over the years, is to use such interactions and experiences as…oh…’tests’ of my ability to stay..’centered’ for lack of a better word.
I mean I HAVE all the same emotions you do, but i ‘try’ to find a way to stay tranquil in the midst of rightwing-fuck-the-poor crap.

Call it ‘political meditation’ :>) I dunno. It just doesn’t seem healthy for ‘me’ to get all crazed by things i cant change. Ya know. It is VERY difficult for me. You have no idea. But i get better every year.

w
v

;>)

WV,

It may sounds weird, but that makes me feel better. Knowing you also have struggles with this stuff.

Most of the time when I read your posts, I’m amazed at their “grounded” aspect. Off the top of my head, it’s like you’re a comedic Yoda and you’ve internalized that old saying our wiser high-school buddies would always write in our yearbooks.

;>)

Anyway, it’s going to be a tremendous relief when this lunacy is over with. Gotta get back to my writing and step up reading as well. Currently reading Alice Kaplan’s Looking for The Stranger. It’s kinda like a biography of a novel. On a bit of a Camus kick at the moment.