The rising polarization of our beliefs

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

http://www.pressreader.com/usa/los-angeles-times/20160630/281651074418891

Given our discussions re left, moderate, and right I found this article interesting. Growing up in the 50s I don’t recall the “hate” that I see today in the different ideologies.

It was there. McCarthyism? Eisenhower sending the 101st Airborne to Little Rock to restore order after school desegregation?

The 1950s was a world of fragile platititudes. It hid the conflicts under the surface but they were there.

Not true. I watched “Happy Days” so I know.

There is no shame in being totally ugly nowadays. I think that has changed. I think society used to bite its lip a bit before saying ugly things. The fault lines were there, maybe the contempt. But it wasn’t said out loud in polite company.

It IS said out loud now. It’s almost a matter of PRIDE to say ugly things now. A bravado that is commonly mistaken for bravery.

And we have congress flat out refusing to do its job, and unabashedly saying things that are demonstrably false.

I heard on the radio this morning a couple of hosts talking about a guy who accosted Izzy Azalea – whoever that is – at an airport terminal. He approached her (him? Her, I think) and recorded the encounter, asking, “Are you Izzie Azalea?” and she said, “Yes, I am,” or something in a polite and friendly way, and he says, “How does it feel to have single-handedly ruined hip-hop?”

Paraphrasing.

And I thought, “What kind of dick would do something like that?” And he must have been so proud of himself that he uploaded it, or these DJs wouldn’t have known, right? So we live in an era when being a dickhead is actually admired.

Zooey wrote:

There is no shame in being totally ugly nowadays. I think that has changed. I think society used to bite its lip a bit before saying ugly things. The fault lines were there, maybe the contempt. But it wasn’t said out loud in polite company.

It IS said out loud now. It’s almost a matter of PRIDE to say ugly things now. A bravado that is commonly mistaken for bravery.

And we have congress flat out refusing to do its job, and unabashedly saying things that are demonstrably false.

I heard on the radio this morning a couple of hosts talking about a guy who accosted Izzy Azalea – whoever that is – at an airport terminal. He approached her (him? Her, I think) and recorded the encounter, asking, “Are you Izzie Azalea?” and she said, “Yes, I am,” or something in a polite and friendly way, and he says, “How does it feel to have single-handedly ruined hip-hop?”

Paraphrasing.

And I thought, “What kind of dick would do something like that?” And he must have been so proud of himself that he uploaded it, or these DJs wouldn’t have known, right? So we live in an era when being a dickhead is actually admired.

Do you feel the same about protesters who go into the Trump rally to disrupt it for their own political end? Outside fine but inside no. But wait he’s male, white, rich, heterosexual and republican. Never mind.

zn wrote:

bnw wrote:

Do you feel the same about protesters who go into the Trump rally to disrupt it for their own political end? Outside fine but inside no. But wait he’s male, white, rich, heterosexual and republican. Never mind.

I do share with you the belief that non-poor american male, white, heterosexuals are the most oppressed people on the planet. I just walk around constantly feeling sorry for us. I find strength in our shared self-pity.

That’s just me resorting to ugly quip political sloganing. Why? Cause. Either way, I don’t mean to claim you actually directly said what I am making fun of.

I never claimed anything about “the most oppressed people on the planet”. Don’t change the topic. The bad behavior decried in Zooey’s post is championed by democrats and leftists when it purposefully disrupts Trump rallies. Are you a US citizen?

bnw wrote:

Not true. I watched “Happy Days” so I know.

Richie campaigned against the family and was gun ho for Stevenson… but not the Fonz…..
I actually liked the first two seasons of Happy Days very much…

I wonder who Chuck (Ritchie’s brother) voted for?

bnw wrote:

Zooey wrote:

There is no shame in being totally ugly nowadays. I think that has changed. I think society used to bite its lip a bit before saying ugly things. The fault lines were there, maybe the contempt. But it wasn’t said out loud in polite company.

It IS said out loud now. It’s almost a matter of PRIDE to say ugly things now. A bravado that is commonly mistaken for bravery.

And we have congress flat out refusing to do its job, and unabashedly saying things that are demonstrably false.

I heard on the radio this morning a couple of hosts talking about a guy who accosted Izzy Azalea – whoever that is – at an airport terminal. He approached her (him? Her, I think) and recorded the encounter, asking, “Are you Izzie Azalea?” and she said, “Yes, I am,” or something in a polite and friendly way, and he says, “How does it feel to have single-handedly ruined hip-hop?”

Paraphrasing.

And I thought, “What kind of dick would do something like that?” And he must have been so proud of himself that he uploaded it, or these DJs wouldn’t have known, right? So we live in an era when being a dickhead is actually admired.

Do you feel the same about protesters who go into the Trump rally to disrupt it for their own political end? Outside fine but inside no. But wait he’s male, white, rich, heterosexual and republican. Never mind.

Hey, don’t insult me, okay?

I think silent protest is okay. I think counter-demonstrations/rallies are okay. I think disrupting a rally is rude, including disrupting a Trump rally. I think initiating conflict is counter-productive in its own right.

Zooey wrote:

bnw wrote:

Zooey wrote:

There is no shame in being totally ugly nowadays. I think that has changed. I think society used to bite its lip a bit before saying ugly things. The fault lines were there, maybe the contempt. But it wasn’t said out loud in polite company.

It IS said out loud now. It’s almost a matter of PRIDE to say ugly things now. A bravado that is commonly mistaken for bravery.

And we have congress flat out refusing to do its job, and unabashedly saying things that are demonstrably false.

I heard on the radio this morning a couple of hosts talking about a guy who accosted Izzy Azalea – whoever that is – at an airport terminal. He approached her (him? Her, I think) and recorded the encounter, asking, “Are you Izzie Azalea?” and she said, “Yes, I am,” or something in a polite and friendly way, and he says, “How does it feel to have single-handedly ruined hip-hop?”

Paraphrasing.

And I thought, “What kind of dick would do something like that?” And he must have been so proud of himself that he uploaded it, or these DJs wouldn’t have known, right? So we live in an era when being a dickhead is actually admired.

Do you feel the same about protesters who go into the Trump rally to disrupt it for their own political end? Outside fine but inside no. But wait he’s male, white, rich, heterosexual and republican. Never mind.

Hey, don’t insult me, okay?

I think silent protest is okay. I think counter-demonstrations/rallies are okay. I think disrupting a rally is rude, including disrupting a Trump rally. I think initiating conflict is counter-productive in its own right.

OK, I apologize.

I find the entire “Trump as victim” meme beyond offensive. In reality, his rallies weren’t disrupted, until Chicago, and that was outside or well before the event, which Trump ended up cancelling. They were never “disrupted” by protesters inside while he was there. Trump and his little fascist wannabes did the disrupting.

What invariably occurred was this:

Young, lone black woman or man, enters the arena with sign or T-Shirt. Tries to express their anger at Trump’s overt racist pleas. They have no amplification, and can not possibly derail a Trump (performance art) speech, unless he lets them. He has the mic. He can easily ignore them and keep talking. But he doesn’t. He hears the Beer-Hall-Putsch shouts around the lone protester, smells the blood in the water like a shark, and then plays Il Duce, or Al Capone, demanding they be thrown out. Early on, he okayed the violence that was inflicted on these lone protesters, who were often beaten. He praised it and said he would pay the doctors’ bills. After being exposed, he tried to tone down his glee, at least in front of the cameras.

There is no “disruption” of the event if his USA! USA! USA! Trump! Trump! Trump!!! brown shirts just leave the lone protester alone. There is no “disruption” if Trump ignores them and goes on with his word salad. There is no “disruption” if Trump doesn’t egg on his white supremacist fanboys in the audience.

And ya know somethin’ else? Those lone protesters are damn brave, because they know they are likely to be attacked, but they still show up.

Trump is a bully, and a fraud, and a racist piece of garbage. The truly horrible thing about this race is that Clinton isn’t the antidote to any of that. The Dems picked the wrong year — not that there is ever a good year for this — to run an Establishment drone, with all kinds of skeletons in her closet.

Billy_T wrote:

Trump is a bully, and a fraud, and a racist piece of garbage.

bnw wrote:

And that was another dispatch from Neverland.

There’s a fine line between expressing strong opinions about political issues in a straightforward way, and then just getting into antagonistic and/or provocative language. Even if you believe it. Not sure where that line is, myself. Maybe toss in a few “in my view” kind of phrases.

Certainly we don’t want to use language simply dismissing the poster. Like neverland. People see things differently and that comes out in political discussions.

I can only say, try and stay inbounds.

As mentioned before, I think some people just don’t read the context, skip four out of five words, or something, when they see the word “racist” in a sentence. Instead of seeing all of the modifiers and the names and the qualifiers, they just jump the shark and assume the accusation is aimed their way.

Perhaps no other word online provokes tunnel vision like the word “racism.” People lose their minds when it’s brought up. They really need to take a deep breath, reread, and stop assuming things. And they should also know what it looks like to others when they do react for no good reason. When no one is talking about them. It looks like they have a guilty conscience, and that’s likely not the look they were going for.

Billy_T wrote:

ZN,

In my view, there is a huge difference between expressing opinions about public figures, and insulting posters here. I did the former. Bnw keeps doing the latter.

BT, the rules say try to control antagonistic language. They don’t just say don’t attack posters.

–

Board Rules & Policies

…avoid, in tone and language, being antagonistic, confrontational, or argumentative…. If a poster crosses the line and becomes insulting or antagonistic, do not respond in kind–politely remind that poster of the rules and let mods handle it. Mods quell conflict, they do not judge who is “right” or “who started it.” If a mod asks posters to move on from a volatile exchange, please do so without comment.

The same rules apply to The Public House board. Controversial topics are welcome on that board, but avoid name-calling, insults, and derisive language. Act like a respected debate partner, not like an argumentative board warrior.

As I said there’s a fine line. As it happens, on this forum, where political discussion is prevalent, saying something that is equivalent to “green party politics is for the stupid” will be attacking someone here, because people identify with their candidates. Actually, the experience on the first huddle board politics forum led to the rules being written that way. So no it’s not just direct attacks on posters.

You know I can only think of one other Rams board (out of the 6 I read) which allows political discussion at all. That’s because it can be inherently volatile, as we all know. So we all have to find some way to keep it more like honest debate and less like board wars, to the degree that is possible.

I certainly don’t know quite where the line is because this all involves strong emotions. I do know it tends to mitigate it some, for some reason, if people say “I think” or “I believe.” But that’s just a spontaneous suggestion, not a rule. Certainly calling one candidate “garbage” is bound to antagonize someone who identifies with that candidate.

Let’s leave it at this. My initial post wasn’t a warning as much as a reminder. I just have a feeling that there will be this constant give and take, with the line being pushed a little, friendly reminders showing up now and then…but it’s easier for everyone if we all try to figure out where the line is.

I am certainly not going to discuss each example. So yeah…IF posters get into a “but he said, but he said” thing that too violates the rules…and the rules were written very deliberately to include that point.

So as per the rules, I am asking people to move on and lower the anatagonism.

Billy_T wrote:

Where’s the line? How about here?

Imagine Me In The Maginot Line
Geoge Formby

You should see me out in France wearing my tin hat
With shot and shell it’s worse than – well it’s even worse than that
Now imagine me in the Maginot Line
Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line
Now it’s turned out nice again
The Army life is fine
French girls make a fuss of me
I’m not French as you can see
But I know what they mean when they say “oui, oui”
Down on the Maginot Line

Now imagine me in the Maginot Line
Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line
Now it’s turned out nice again
The Army life is fine
The enemy we had to chase
But my gun got out of place
I went and shot the Colonel in the base
Down on the Maginot Line

Now imagine me in the Maginot Line
Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line
Now it’s turned out nice again
The Army life is fine
At night, myself to sleep I sing
To my old tin hat I cling
I have to use it now for everything
Down on the Maginot Line

Now imagine me in the Maginot Line
Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line
Now it’s turned out nice again
The Army life is fine
Suddenly a pain I felt
A doctor on my tummy knelt
He slapped a poultice underneath my belt
Right on the Maginot Line

Now imagine me in the Maginot Line
Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line
Now it’s turned out nice again
The Army life is fine
Hitler can’t kid us a lot
His secret weapon’s tommyrot
But you ought to see what the sergeant’s got
Down on the Maginot Line,
Down on the Maginot Line.

Billy_T wrote:

Again, let’s clear the air. If you don’t believe I’m telling the truth here, ignore me. Just ignore me. Or keep your suspicions to yourself. But if this were my site — it’s not, of course — next time you called someone a liar, you’d be banned.

===========
Well, i wish you BOTH would ignore EACH OTHER.

Thats my, single, solitary, honest opinion. I dont think either of you
are handling each other in a way that makes the board a better place.
There are ways to handle fundamental-core-differences. I can post with bnw all day, everyday, and there wont be any shit-storms. Same with others…

Bnw is the outlier here. He’s the only Trump supporter he’s the only Pat Buchannon supporter. So, he’s always gonna be…oh….kinda ‘ganged up on’ around here. Same goes for Waterfield, probly. So, knowing that, I think it would be cool if the majority-leftists would give’em both a break. Which does not mean giving up principles, yada yada. Just means, among other things…roll with things. Use humor. Figure out when arguing is utterly totally POINTLESS and where its not.

There is no earthly reason why we all cant ‘essentially’ write what we want, but then when things OBVIOUSLY get to an ugly point, agree to disagree, and then forget it like a good cornerback, and move on.

I’m mildly vexed by shit-storms on my board, so….stop it.

Its a lovely, warm sunny day in WV. Time to stake some tomatoes,
hike in the appalachian woods, pee on a tree-stump, and eat some
bar-b-qued vegetables in foil and olive oil…the world is fucked gentlemen. Pull up a lawn chair, and a good book, and ponder the mystery 🙂

w
v

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by wv.

I hear ya, WV, about his being alone.

I’ve been there, done that, too.

Just saying, I don’t like being called a liar. And I think it’s important to say so. Prior to that, I was trying to go the ignore route. It didn’t work so well.

And, ZN,

I understand what you’re saying as well, and will adhere to board policies. I also would understand if you thought my comments were over the line — Maginot or otherwise — and deserved a board time out. I wouldn’t argue against that, and it’s perhaps even “deserved,” given their content.

You guys decide, and I’ll abide. Btw, whatever happened to the poster with “the Dude” as his avatar?

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.