Native Americans and others protest pipeline.

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  • #52577
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Feds delay Dakota Access pipeline construction in surprise announcement after court ruled against tribe

    Democracy Now’s Amy Goodman was there and filmed part of it. It got to me. Got me choked up to see this.


    Democracy Now! on the protest

    Excerpt from the Salon article:

    As Salon previously reported, arrest warrants were issued on Wednesday for Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein and her running mate, Ajamu Baraka, for participating in civil disobedience protests at the pipeline.

    “I hope they take action against the Dakota Access Pipeline company that is endangering drinking water not only for the Standing Rock Sioux, but for millions of people downstream of the reservation who depend on the Missouri River,” Stein said in a campaign statement, responding to the arrest warrants.

    “The pipeline will carry up to 570,000 barrels of highly polluting Bakken crude oil per day. This would be another deadly blow to a climate teetering on the brink. It cannot be allowed to go forward,” she added.

    The federal agencies emphasized in their statement that they “fully support the rights of all Americans to assemble and speak freely.” But they also warned, “Anyone who commits violent or destructive acts may face criminal sanctions from federal, tribal, state or local authorities.”

    Amnesty International, which sent human rights observers to the demonstrations, released a statement stressing that U.S. authorities must protect people’s right to protest.

    “Authorities have a duty to protect the rights of Indigenous peoples, including their right to peacefully protest,” said Tarah Demant, a senior director with Amnesty International USA.

    “It is the responsibility of the police to ensure the right to peaceful protest and freedom of expression,” Demant emphasized.

    #52582
    bnw
    Blocked

    I wonder how many protesters walked out there to protest?

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52598
    wv
    Participant

    I wonder how many protesters walked out there to protest?

    ————

    Well its a fair question, but its also fair to ask how is one supposed
    to be totally ‘pure’ in all actions when one is born into a corporotacracy.
    I mean, I have no problem with progressives picking out some major issues and fighting for them, while still having cars, or watching pro football on televisions, etc. Its ‘almost’ impossible to be a saint today. So, i don’t have a problem with non-saints protesting the big issues of the day.

    w
    v

    #52602
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    I wonder how many protesters walked out there to protest?

    ————

    Well its a fair question, but its also fair to ask how is one supposed
    to be totally ‘pure’ in all actions when one is born into a corporotacracy.
    I mean, I have no problem with progressives picking out some major issues and fighting for them, while still having cars, or watching pro football on televisions, etc. Its ‘almost’ impossible to be a saint today. So, i don’t have a problem with non-saints protesting the big issues of the day.

    w
    v

    Besides, the protesters aren’t saying “stop all oil production” or “don’t transport oil anywhere”…they just don’t want a pipeline running through their land that can potentially leak oil into their drinking water.

    Oil companies made record profits on a yearly basis prior to this pipeline. I’m sure they would survive just fine without it.

    #52603
    bnw
    Blocked

    I wonder how many protesters walked out there to protest?

    ————

    Well its a fair question, but its also fair to ask how is one supposed
    to be totally ‘pure’ in all actions when one is born into a corporotacracy.
    I mean, I have no problem with progressives picking out some major issues and fighting for them, while still having cars, or watching pro football on televisions, etc. Its ‘almost’ impossible to be a saint today. So, i don’t have a problem with non-saints protesting the big issues of the day.

    w
    v

    No don’t do that. Not at all the same nor relevant. You can’t use the benefits of petroleum and then protest against its use. Especially when driving or jetting to a protest against petroleum. Such hypocrisy.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52604
    bnw
    Blocked

    I wonder how many protesters walked out there to protest?

    ————

    Well its a fair question, but its also fair to ask how is one supposed
    to be totally ‘pure’ in all actions when one is born into a corporotacracy.
    I mean, I have no problem with progressives picking out some major issues and fighting for them, while still having cars, or watching pro football on televisions, etc. Its ‘almost’ impossible to be a saint today. So, i don’t have a problem with non-saints protesting the big issues of the day.

    w
    v

    Besides, the protesters aren’t saying “stop all oil production” or “don’t transport oil anywhere”…they just don’t want a pipeline running through their land that can potentially leak oil into their drinking water.

    Oil companies made record profits on a yearly basis prior to this pipeline. I’m sure they would survive just fine without it.

    That isn’t what I read. Jill Stein said,

    “The pipeline will carry up to 570,000 barrels of highly polluting Bakken crude oil per day. This would be another deadly blow to a climate teetering on the brink. It cannot be allowed to go forward,” she added.

    Deadly blow! Oh no! Save the climate! Live with a clear conscience by refusing to be a consumer of petroleum. Long walk home Jill. Or ride a horse. Or hire a rickshaw. Now on your long ride home you can learn about all the products made from petroleum you use every day. For the earth, for your conscience, shed your hypocrisy and shun all use of petroleum. You can do it if you want to.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52614
    TSRF
    Participant

    So BNW, would you be OK with it if they wanted to run an oil pipeline under your back yard?

    And if you wanted to protest it, would you be happy if conservationists wanted to stand with you?

    #52615
    Billy_T
    Participant

    The rationales and motives vary for pushing the absurd idea that people can’t ever use a resource they protest against. They range from an innocent misunderstanding of how protest works, how the world works, how complex our modern world is, how dependent we’ve become on various technologies — to a cynical attempt to crush all protest. The bottom line for me is this:

    I don’t give a shit what they say. It has less than zero impact on what the protests mean, what the protesters stand for, and what they’re trying to accomplish. The best thing we can do as human beings who care about the planet is to absoLUTELY ignore the voices accusing those protesters of hypocrisy. They’re not worth a second of our time. They’re either too ignorant to understand what they’re demanding of people, or they know full well that if their words were heeded, all protests of this kind would be nearly impossible — or, at best, severely weakened. The people pushing this meme, through their useful idiots, fall into the latter category.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Billy_T.
    #52617
    Billy_T
    Participant

    The follow up is this:

    IF there were several options available for energy, then those protesters would be able to be “saintly” from the getgo. Not only are they protesting the immediate impact of pollution on their waterways and sacred lands, in effect they’re protesting the lack of those options.

    Fossil fuel dominates the landscape. There are very few available alternatives, if we seek eco-friendly options — at the moment. Environmentalists are calling for, first, a radical increase in those choices, and second, phasing out all fossil fuel production. As quickly as is humanly possible. But while fossil fuels dominate, it’s next to impossible to avoid them if we want to gather in one place for protests, or seminars, or hearings, etc. etc.

    It’s a process. Holding environmentalists to a standard of non-use is ludicrous, for so many reasons, one of them being there are next to no available alternatives. The more those alternatives come online — a goal of environmentalists — the more protesters will commit to non-use. We all win when that happens, and anyone who stands in the way of this in effect seeks the destruction of the planet.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Billy_T.
    #52622
    Zooey
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter, Billy.

    It isn’t a principled argument. As always, it’s an argument of convenience. It’s the same thing the right said about Al Gore. “Oh, global warming, huh? Then why do you have such a big utility bill for your house?”

    It’s a straw man.

    It’s a classic “change the subject” argument.

    Instead of arguing about the issue – the environmental danger and cultural disregard of the pipeline (arguments the right will lose) – they change the subject to different ground where they feel they have the upper hand – in this case, the “purity” of the people making the argument.

    This is standard arguing practice of the right, and it won’t make any difference how many times you point it out, and at what length. They change the subject as routinely as you change your socks.

    They can’t say what they really think which is “Hey, this is how society makes progress, and I don’t get my drinking water from there, and I have no ancestors buried there, so it’s not my problem. Your loss is an acceptable price for me to pay. Fuck you.” That won’t go over well, so as usual, they just wrap the whole issue in a bunch of bullshit until most people are so confused, they change the channel to something easier to understand, like “The Apprentice.”

    #52624
    bnw
    Blocked

    So BNW, would you be OK with it if they wanted to run an oil pipeline under your back yard?

    And if you wanted to protest it, would you be happy if conservationists wanted to stand with you?

    Backyard? I didn’t see any backyard. Hyperbole much? The issue isn’t whether outside support is welcome since most likely of course it would be welcome. The issue is protesting petroleum. How many of those conservationists walked out there to protest petroleum? None. The hypocrisy is disgusting. As a conservationist do you want to conserve oil? If so then sending it by pipeline is far more efficient than transporting by tanker truck or by rail. Much more safer too.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52626
    bnw
    Blocked

    The rationales and motives vary for pushing the absurd idea that people can’t ever use a resource they protest against. They range from an innocent misunderstanding of how protest works, how the world works, how complex our modern world is, how dependent we’ve become on various technologies — to a cynical attempt to crush all protest. The bottom line for me is this:

    I don’t give a shit what they say. It has less than zero impact on what the protests mean, what the protesters stand for, and what they’re trying to accomplish. The best thing we can do as human beings who care about the planet is to absoLUTELY ignore the voices accusing those protesters of hypocrisy. They’re not worth a second of our time. They’re either too ignorant to understand what they’re demanding of people, or they know full well that if their words were heeded, all protests of this kind would be nearly impossible — or, at best, severely weakened. The people pushing this meme, through their useful idiots, fall into the latter category.

    It is the difference between being an adult vs. a child. A child merely wants what they want. An adult realizes there’s far more involved. Petroleum for better or worse powers this nations transport especially outside of the eastern seaboard megalopolis. That won’t change for a long time if ever. The petroleum is needed period. Whether for domestic use or for export having the resource developed when imports get too expensive is absolutely vital.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52627
    bnw
    Blocked

    The follow up is this:

    IF there were several options available for energy, then those protesters would be able to be “saintly” from the getgo. Not only are they protesting the immediate impact of pollution on their waterways and sacred lands, in effect they’re protesting the lack of those options.

    Fossil fuel dominates the landscape. There are very few available alternatives, if we seek eco-friendly options — at the moment. Environmentalists are calling for, first, a radical increase in those choices, and second, phasing out all fossil fuel production. As quickly as is humanly possible. But while fossil fuels dominate, it’s next to impossible to avoid them if we want to gather in one place for protests, or seminars, or hearings, etc. etc.

    It’s a process. Holding environmentalists to a standard of non-use is ludicrous, for so many reasons, one of them being there are next to no available alternatives. The more those alternatives come online — a goal of environmentalists — the more protesters will commit to non-use. We all win when that happens, and anyone who stands in the way of this in effect seeks the destruction of the planet.

    Oh there are certainly options available the issue is whether the options are cost effective, i.e. affordable. Interesting how environmentalists watch their own dollars but have no problem foisting non cost effective thus unaffordable technologies upon the taxpayers.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52628
    bnw
    Blocked

    It doesn’t matter, Billy.

    It isn’t a principled argument. As always, it’s an argument of convenience. It’s the same thing the right said about Al Gore. “Oh, global warming, huh? Then why do you have such a big utility bill for your house?”

    It’s a straw man.

    It’s a classic “change the subject” argument.

    Instead of arguing about the issue – the environmental danger and cultural disregard of the pipeline (arguments the right will lose) – they change the subject to different ground where they feel they have the upper hand – in this case, the “purity” of the people making the argument.

    This is standard arguing practice of the right, and it won’t make any difference how many times you point it out, and at what length. They change the subject as routinely as you change your socks.

    They can’t say what they really think which is “Hey, this is how society makes progress, and I don’t get my drinking water from there, and I have no ancestors buried there, so it’s not my problem. Your loss is an acceptable price for me to pay. Fuck you.” That won’t go over well, so as usual, they just wrap the whole issue in a bunch of bullshit until most people are so confused, they change the channel to something easier to understand, like “The Apprentice.”

    Straw man my gluteus maximus. It is pure hypocrisy that should be exposed.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52631
    Zooey
    Participant

    Straw man my gluteus maximus. It is pure hypocrisy that should be exposed.

    Clearly hypocrisy is very important to you.

    Except when it involves Trump’s use of undocumented immigrants.

    Or his denial of climate change while simultaneously trying to prepare for it at his golf course.

    Or his attack on political contributions (except the ones he receives).

    #52634
    Billy_T
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter, Billy.

    It isn’t a principled argument. As always, it’s an argument of convenience. It’s the same thing the right said about Al Gore. “Oh, global warming, huh? Then why do you have such a big utility bill for your house?”

    It’s a straw man.

    It’s a classic “change the subject” argument.

    Instead of arguing about the issue – the environmental danger and cultural disregard of the pipeline (arguments the right will lose) – they change the subject to different ground where they feel they have the upper hand – in this case, the “purity” of the people making the argument.

    This is standard arguing practice of the right, and it won’t make any difference how many times you point it out, and at what length. They change the subject as routinely as you change your socks.

    They can’t say what they really think which is “Hey, this is how society makes progress, and I don’t get my drinking water from there, and I have no ancestors buried there, so it’s not my problem. Your loss is an acceptable price for me to pay. Fuck you.” That won’t go over well, so as usual, they just wrap the whole issue in a bunch of bullshit until most people are so confused, they change the channel to something easier to understand, like “The Apprentice.”

    Zooey, I agree with all of that.

    Main reason why I think righties who do this should be completely ignored. They’re an obstacle in the way of a better world on EVERY issue, and when it comes to the environment, their opposition to environmentalism endangers all of us.

    #52641
    TSRF
    Participant

    Wait… Billy changes his socks?

    #52643
    zn
    Moderator

    bnw, each time by now that you use the rightie “aha hypocrisy” move, people here just simply read it as partisan gameplaying.

    You can do it all you want, but I promise you, it will never be taken as anything more than that.

    It’s just one of your go-to “be a partisan” moves.

    #52644
    bnw
    Blocked

    Straw man my gluteus maximus. It is pure hypocrisy that should be exposed.

    Clearly hypocrisy is very important to you.

    Except when it involves Trump’s use of undocumented immigrants.

    Or his denial of climate change while simultaneously trying to prepare for it at his golf course.

    Or his attack on political contributions (except the ones he receives).

    Yes I am a Hypocrisy Free Individual. I do not believe in man made global warming thus I burn wood to heat my home with a clear conscience. Same for driving a car. You?

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52645
    bnw
    Blocked

    bnw, each time by now that you use the rightie “aha hypocrisy” move, people here just simply read it as partisan gameplaying.

    You can do it all you want, but I promise you, it will never be taken as anything more than that.

    It’s just one of your go-to “be a partisan” moves.

    Partisan? No. The truth hurts so you ostrich about? Got it. Yet the hypocrisy remains. Protesting petroleum when you rely upon it to get to your protest is the height of hypocrisy. That I promise you.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52647
    Billy_T
    Participant

    The USA is criminally negligent when it comes to renewable energy, and criminally negligent when it comes to all things “green.”

    If tiny Costa Rico can do it, we can. And it’s not alone in this. Many nations now can meet the majority of their energy needs via “green” technologies, without resorting to fossil fuels.

    Costa Rica has gone 76 straight days using 100% renewable electricity Updated by Brad Plumer on September 8, 2016, 11:20 a.m. ET @bradplumer brad@vox.com

    Excerpt:

    Costa Rica is pulling off a feat most countries just daydream about: For two straight months, the Central American country hasn’t burned any fossil fuels to generate electricity. That’s right: 100 percent renewable power.

    This isn’t a blip, either. For 300 total days last year and 150 days so far this year, Costa Rica’s electricity has come entirely from renewable sources, mostly hydropower and geothermal. Heavy rains have helped four big hydroelectric dams run above their usual capacity, letting the country turn off its diesel generators.

    Uruguay is another great example for us to emulate:

    Uruguay makes dramatic shift to nearly 95% electricity from clean energy

    As the world gathers in Paris for the daunting task of switching from fossil fuels to renewable energy, one small country on the other side of the Atlantic is making that transition look childishly simple and affordable.

    In less than 10 years, Uruguay has slashed its carbon footprint without government subsidies or higher consumer costs, according to the country’s head of climate change policy, Ramón Méndez.

    In fact, he says that now that renewables provide 94.5% of the country’s electricity, prices are lower than in the past relative to inflation. There are also fewer power cuts because a diverse energy mix means greater resilience to droughts.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Billy_T.
    #52649
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Germany is having remarkable success moving away from fossil fuels as well.

    Germany Just Got Almost All of Its Power From Renewable Energy

    Wind, solar, biomass and hydro met demand on Sunday afternoon
    Angela Merkel’s Energiewende is squeezing coal and gas margins

    Clean power supplied almost all of Germany’s power demand for the first time on Sunday, marking a milestone for Chancellor Angela Merkel’s “Energiewende” policy to boost renewables while phasing out nuclear and fossil fuels.

    Solar and wind power peaked at 2 p.m. local time on Sunday, allowing renewables to supply 45.5 gigawatts as demand was 45.8 gigawatts, according to provisional data by Agora Energiewende, a research institute in Berlin. Power prices turned negative during several 15-minute periods yesterday, dropping as low as minus 50 euros ($57) a megawatt-hour, according to data from Epex Spot.

    Here’s the graph from the article:

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Billy_T.
    #52651
    bnw
    Blocked

    Wind energy is not cost effective. PV is still too expensive. Green energy to power a first world economy of a nation that spans a continent is for the foreseeable future a pipe dream. Those are the facts but feel free to dream on.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52657
    sdram
    Participant

    They’re building wind farms just about as fast as they can out here where I live. And, there’s a local factory in Aberdeen SD building the fiberglass base and blades on a daily basis. The biggest problem with their construction locally is that the transmission system isn’t available to transport the juice into the grid and that’s where the big cost is. They’re also working on a fairly large solar farm at the local small town airport that they think will supply enough electricity for the airport itself.

    There are good things and bad things about the wind farms. Clean energy is great IMO. But, picture the idealic prairie landscape with 40 or so turbines sticking up all willy, nilly. It’s different to me. Now put that in New England nestled against the leaves turning or in your mental portraits of the Rockies. Many of the farmers\land owners love them because they take up about a 50 square yard area and typically it’s arid pasture land and they get paid a substantial bonus and then an annual royalty to rent their land.

    I read somewhere a while back where they thought that the us had the ability to supply about 10% of it’s own electrical needs with a combination of renewables – wind farms and solar and hydro electric – that was at least 10 to 15 years ago.

    From Wikipedia: Renewable energy in the United States accounted for 13.44 percent of the domestically produced electricity in 2015,[2] and 11.1 percent of total energy generation.[3] As of 2014, more than 143,000 people work in the solar industry and 43 states deploy net metering, where energy utilities buy back excess power generated by solar arrays.[4]

    #52666
    bnw
    Blocked

    They’re building wind farms just about as fast as they can out here where I live. And, there’s a local factory in Aberdeen SD building the fiberglass base and blades on a daily basis. The biggest problem with their construction locally is that the transmission system isn’t available to transport the juice into the grid and that’s where the big cost is. They’re also working on a fairly large solar farm at the local small town airport that they think will supply enough electricity for the airport itself.

    There are good things and bad things about the wind farms. Clean energy is great IMO. But, picture the idealic prairie landscape with 40 or so turbines sticking up all willy, nilly. It’s different to me. Now put that in New England nestled against the leaves turning or in your mental portraits of the Rockies. Many of the farmers\land owners love them because they take up about a 50 square yard area and typically it’s arid pasture land and they get paid a substantial bonus and then an annual royalty to rent their land.

    I read somewhere a while back where they thought that the us had the ability to supply about 10% of it’s own electrical needs with a combination of renewables – wind farms and solar and hydro electric – that was at least 10 to 15 years ago.

    From Wikipedia: Renewable energy in the United States accounted for 13.44 percent of the domestically produced electricity in 2015,[2] and 11.1 percent of total energy generation.[3] As of 2014, more than 143,000 people work in the solar industry and 43 states deploy net metering, where energy utilities buy back excess power generated by solar arrays.[4]

    I’m all for jobs being created. I’m for farmers and ranchers getting additional income from leasing land too. However when it comes to wind energy it is not cost effective at all. The initial investment is very high and the maintenance costs are very high. The power production fluctuates greatly and is not cost effective compared to readily available coal and natural gas.

    Regarding renewable energy production in the US of the 11% you mentioned over half of that is hydroelectric (7%) which has long reached its maximum extent. After so many decades sedimentation is becoming a major problem for electrical production as well as reservoir capacity to store fresh water. As in all mechanical systems the maintenance requirements accelerate with use and age. The remaining renewables of solar, wind, geothermal and biomass are therefore 4% of total US energy production.

    Currently the only solar option that is cost effective over time is passive solar. Exploiting that option to the fullest is much more practical for work and living space.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52675
    Zooey
    Participant

    bnw, each time by now that you use the rightie “aha hypocrisy” move, people here just simply read it as partisan gameplaying.

    You can do it all you want, but I promise you, it will never be taken as anything more than that.

    It’s just one of your go-to “be a partisan” moves.

    Partisan? No. The truth hurts so you ostrich about? Got it. Yet the hypocrisy remains. Protesting petroleum when you rely upon it to get to your protest is the height of hypocrisy. That I promise you.

    Ostriching?

    Is Trump a hypocrite?

    Yes or no.

    #52686
    bnw
    Blocked

    bnw, each time by now that you use the rightie “aha hypocrisy” move, people here just simply read it as partisan gameplaying.

    You can do it all you want, but I promise you, it will never be taken as anything more than that.

    It’s just one of your go-to “be a partisan” moves.

    Partisan? No. The truth hurts so you ostrich about? Got it. Yet the hypocrisy remains. Protesting petroleum when you rely upon it to get to your protest is the height of hypocrisy. That I promise you.

    Ostriching?

    Is Trump a hypocrite?

    Yes or no.

    Everyone can change their mind. What matters are ones subsequent actions.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #52690
    Billy_T
    Participant

    As Zooey noted upthread:

    This particular protest was about building a pipeline which would destroy water supplies in this particular place. While it has larger environmental ramifications, it was specific in its intentions. It wasn’t about the use of fossil fuels more broadly. It was about building a pipeline in that place, now, and the destruction of water.

    There is no “hypocrisy” involved in this case, unless the protesters built pipelines elsewhere. If they have built them on someone else’s land, and this destroyed water, and they had been okay with that — as in, someone else’s water — yeah, it’s hypocritical to raise a protest when it happens to them.

    But that’s not what happened. And while everyone really knows that the accusation of hypocrisy is just another lame, tired old right-wing tactic to prevent positive social, economic and environmental change, it doesn’t even remotely apply here. It never does, when launched by righties, which is why the protesters ignored the accusations, as they should.

    No one’s buying it. No intelligent human being is going to care about desperate right-wing attempts to prevent critically necessary social, economic and environmental change.

    #52696
    Zooey
    Participant

    Ostriching?

    Is Trump a hypocrite?

    Yes or no.

    Everyone can change their mind. What matters are ones subsequent actions.

    So, no, Trump’s hypocrisy doesn’t bother you. You just spin it differently. Because he hasn’t “changed his mind.” He is playing both sides of those issues.

    #52697
    bnw
    Blocked

    Ostriching?

    Is Trump a hypocrite?

    Yes or no.

    Everyone can change their mind. What matters are ones subsequent actions.

    So, no, Trump’s hypocrisy doesn’t bother you. You just spin it differently. Because he hasn’t “changed his mind.” He is playing both sides of those issues.

    Not at all. I stand by what I wrote.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

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