'Nationalist Symbols'

— X — wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

X,

Ever ask yourself who “enacted” this supposed sacred tradition? Where did it come from? Who decided? Who chose the FSK anthem in the first place? The anthem came about due to Big Gubmint fiat, not through any democratic choice, and the ownership of various sports teams decided to play the anthem, at various times, for various reasons. We the people had nothing to do with it.

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/04/492599463/how-did-the-national-anthem-get-to-be-a-mainstay-of-sports-in-the-first-place

I don’t think that’s entirely accurate. This piece by ESPN has a much more historical account.
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/6957582/the-history-national-anthem-sports-espn-magazine

Billy_T wrote:

Also, you can’t “disrespect” a country through such an action regarding a nationalist symbol. How do you “disrespect” an abstraction via another abstraction? And if you hold up something like an anthem or a flag as “representative” of a nation, you don’t get to cherry-pick which parts of its history count. You don’t get to say, “This ONLY represents all the awesome things we’ve done and do, and NONE of the bad stuff.” If you insist that a symbol actually does “represent” this country, then it has no meaning whatsoever if you dismiss everything except for the rainbows and the unicorns. It loses any potential for meaning, and is then a symbol of a G-rated fairy tale, not an actual nation, with an actual history.

Yes you absolutely can disrespect a Country by disrespecting its “Nationalist Symbol.” Though, I would argue that most would call the flag the Nation’s Symbol. You don’t have to take my word for it, and you don’t even have to agree with it. But the fact remains that it offends a GREAT many Americans when they see players taking a knee in front of it, as evidenced here:

So what I think you mean is that people should understand that you don’t see it the same way, and that all 2000+ people that are angered by it (above), followed by the 4,000+ people in the ensuing, innocuous post by the Steelers who were also angered, are just being silly and that they shouldn’t feel any strong connection to the Flag or their Country’s anthem.

As far as people picking and choosing which part of their Country’s history they wish to Champion, I don’t see much evidence of that happening. They’re mainly upset that people are disrespecting the flag. The very flag that is draped over the coffins of dead soldiers. The very flag that widows clutch in their arms at funerals. The very flag that every Policeman and Fireman salute as they protect this Nation. It’s not an abstraction, Billeh. It has very real and personal meaning to people. Also, we can discuss war in general in another thread. I’d rather just focus on our different views of the Flag right now.

I’d also argue that a great many of the NFL players who are protesting right now don’t even know why. They likely have some abstract idea of how America is oppressing black people and they suddenly got a case of copy-catitis. For Kaepernick in particular, his problem was – and I quote, “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.”

Is evidence necessary, or can people just say whatever they want and it’s assumed to be fact? See, my opinion is that the pendulum swung one way when Obama was President, and now it’s swinging back. Obama was one of the biggest perpetrators of race division I had ever seen, and now that there’s a President who doesn’t pay homage to the oppression, people automatically think he’s a White Supremacist. But that too, is topic for discussion in another thread.

Aren’t you talking about two distinctly different things here? The perception by some that some people are “disrespecting the flag,” and actually doing that? There’s a huge difference. What you’re talking about is “emotions” and “feelings” about symbols, not an actually, concretely “disrespectful” act. And if you want to play a numbers game here, I’d bet you that most Americans couldn’t care less about this topic, and that few Americans are actually all that bothered by someone taking a knee. Do any of us stop what we’re doing, put down the popcorn and the beer, when we’re sitting at home during the anthem?

I’d bet few do. So what is “disrespectful” about it? And, again, it wasn’t an organically derived “tradition.” It was imposed on us, by a few team-sports owners, and by two presidents, Wilson and Hoover.

Choosing the FSK song among millions of others was done via Big Gubmint fiat. We had no voice in the matter. And the anthem was played in scatter shot ways, primarily as a way of indoctrinating Americans to move in lock step during WWI. It’s had an on again, off again history since that time.

Why should ANYONE care that players express their free speech rights by NOT participating in an artificially constructed ritual of indoctrination? IMO, it’s the essence of liberty and freedom to say, “No. I choose not to go along with the crowd on this one.”

And it’s not even about the flag. It’s about the anthem. Which is racist and champions slavery, and was written by a slavery-loving, white supremacist author. Again, I’m actually surprised any black athletes stands for our arbitrarily imposed national anthem.

On Obama: Yeah, it’s probably a subject for another thread, so I’ll try to keep it short.

I honestly have never understood how people can think Obama increased our racial divide — other than by being black. I have a ton of problems with his governance, seeing him as far too willing to work with the GOP, to go for centrist mush, choosing a center-right answer when the much better leftist answer was available. I think on most issues, he governed as a Eisenhower Republican, and on some things like taxes and unions, to Ike’s right. So my comment about Obama on race isn’t from one of his overall fans.

IMO, he showed tremendous restraint when it came to the topic of race. He faced an unprecedented barrage of hate from the right, much of it patently racist in tone and substance, and he stayed above it. Think about how many times — basically, none — he ever responded to public figures slamming him and demonizing him, and compare that to Trump. Has Trump ever NOT attacked his critics — often with vulgarity and always with lies.

Anyway, I honestly don’t see it. Disagree with his policies. I do. Most of them, in fact. But on the topic of race, the guy was a saint, given the context.

— X — wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

Aren’t you talking about two distinctly different things here? The perception by some that some people are “disrespecting the flag,” and actually doing that? There’s a huge difference. What you’re talking about is “emotions” and “feelings” about symbols, not an actually, concretely “disrespectful” act. And if you want to play a numbers game here, I’d bet you that most Americans couldn’t care less about this topic, and that few Americans are actually all that bothered by someone taking a knee. Do any of us stop what we’re doing, put down the popcorn and the beer, when we’re sitting at home during the anthem?

I’d bet few do. So what is “disrespectful” about it? And, again, it wasn’t an organically derived “tradition.” It was imposed on us, by a few team-sports owners, and by two presidents, Wilson and Hoover.

Choosing the FSK song among millions of others was done via Big Gubmint fiat. We had no voice in the matter. And the anthem was played in scatter shot ways, primarily as a way of indoctrinating Americans to move in lock step during WWI. It’s had an on again, off again history since that time.

Why should ANYONE care that players express their free speech rights by NOT participating in an artificially constructed ritual of indoctrination? IMO, it’s the essence of liberty and freedom to say, “No. I choose not to go along with the crowd on this one.”

And it’s not even about the flag. It’s about the anthem. Which is racist and champions slavery, and was written by a slavery-loving, white supremacist author. Again, I’m actually surprised any black athletes stands for our arbitrarily imposed national anthem.

It’s not really about how it originated to these people. It’s about what it stands for now. Nobody is going to go back and micro analyze its origins now. And they shouldn’t. It’s taken on a specific meaning to people and it’s universally accepted to represent Patriotism and honoring the fallen. So when players take a knee to highlight some sort of manufactured social injustice, people are – rightly so – going to be offended. I don’t know why that would be a foreign concept to anyone. There isn’t anything wrong with being proud of your Country and taking offense to anyone disrespecting the sacrifice given so they CAN take a knee. Which is the richest of ironies, by the way. The anthem and flag only mean injustice. Not a nod is given to the sacrifice that allowed them to protest the thing that represents their ability to protest.

We’re kinda going in circles. You’re saying we have to understand that a lot of people feel this way about our nationalist symbols, and just deal with that. I’m saying a lot of people don’t feel that way about our nationalist symbols. Why do you think just one “side” of the issue is legit and should be respected, and the other “side” should be condemned?

And the parts in bold: There is nothing “manufactured” about their protest. Again, the evidence is overwhelming that the kind of social injustice in question exists and is real. And getting worse. A thousand and one studies prove this, as does just living in the USA.

Also, it’s not “universally accepted” that people see these symbols as you do, or as the people you’re speaking for do. A lot of Americans, including this one, see them as abstractions of an abstraction, and with a host of conflicting “meanings,” too many of them based on myths.

When I actually take the time to think about it, which isn’t often, I see the flag and that racist anthem as “representing” a fiction, an arbitrary, abstract fictional entity called a “nation,” that doesn’t actually exist in reality. I see humans and the earth and no nations. I think the height of enlightenment would be for us to completely jettison the idea of national borders. We’ve done that for capital, why not human beings?

Admittedly, there are some practical advantages for organizational purposes. But, on balance, the concept of nations — and in our case, an empire — have largely been deadly to human health and well-being. I think we’d all be far better off as world citizens, with communal, community-based, egalitarian, fully democratic societies, federated to one another, under a world constitution. A Star Trek kinda thing.

But until we evolve into that, we’re going to have to make the best of living in a nation-state. And that requires tolerance of dissent.

— X — wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

I think this entire dust-up is absurd. If ANYONE wants to say no to artificial social rituals, it should be a given in a supposedly “free society” that this is okay.

That’s not what they’re doing though. They’re protesting America. These Athletes are doing this BECAUSE it (the flag, the anthem) represents America. Kaepernick said as much. They’re not protesting the idea that they HAVE to stand for the anthem because it’s an artificial social construct. They’re doing it because they want to illustrate to people that America is bad. Again, Kaepernick said as much and many have followed suit. That’s what people have a problem with. *I’m* not taking a position on it. *I’m* not saying it’s good or bad. Personally, I wrote to the NFL and suggested they eliminate the rule that players need to be on the field for the Anthem (did you know that?) and play the Anthem before the teams take the field (for the fans), and THEN let the teams take the field. That way, if a player wants to protest playing an America-themed game, they can stay in the locker room and get docked. Subsequently, there will be no public protests, and players will have to reevaluate how much they care about (insert social cause here) against how much they love their money.

X,

We disagree about this, especially the part I bolded. No. They’re not trying to say “America” is bad. Whatever “America” is at any given time. And, no, Kap and other players have never said that. Not even remotely. They’re protesting against specific injustices that happen IN America, not the entire nation itself.

Which brings me to this: I’ve noticed a pattern on the right, in the public figure and political realm, pretty much since I became politically aware. And the cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy of all of this just knocks me out. Right-wing public figures and politicians can go all hair’s on fire in outrage about all kinds of things that happen IN America, but their supporters never seem to see this as “anti-American” or “bashing America” or, as you term it, “protesting America.” But when their political opponents are critical of certain things that happen IN America, or aspects of our history, it’s almost always and automatically condemned as “anti-American” or “protesting America.” As in, there’s an instant resort to condemning critiques coming from left of center in that way.

I have no doubt that many a right-wing political and public “leader” does this in a cynical, exploitative way, but it’s all too often accepted as righteous by right-wing rank and file. It shouldn’t be. Average right-wing Joes and Janes need to step back, take a deep breath, and see how they’re being manipulated by this bogus, divisive rhetoric into turning against their fellow Americans. And they are being manipulated.

Again, think about the double standards and hypocrisy here. When the Dixie Chicks said they were embarrassed to be from the same state as Bush, they received a mass of death threats, were black-balled from the music industry, and their records were literally set on fire. They were pilloried as “anti-American” for having the nerve to rebuke Bush in a very, very mild manner.

Contrast that to the things said about Obama or any previous Democratic president, or various others like gay people, feminists, “liberals,” whom boatloads of right-wing religious leaders have directly blamed for causing weather catastrophes like Katrina, etc. etc. The list goes on and on regarding the most hysterical hatred being lodged at people left of center (and various minorities) by those right of center, without this being called “anti-American,” etc. etc.

Why is nearly EVERY criticism about things that happen IN America considered “anti-American,” if it comes from minorities and people left of center, but not considered that if the people doing the criticism are right of center?

Excellent post, PA. Well said.