Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Lies about Afghanistan
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December 9, 2019 at 12:50 pm #109133wvParticipant
Layers of Lies about a war. This time from Obama/Bush. What a shock.
December 9, 2019 at 1:42 pm #109134
Billy_TParticipantThe WaPo published a surprisingly extensive report on this today:
A confidential trove of government documents obtained by The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable.
December 9, 2019 at 5:10 pm #109148
PA RamParticipantI think many people have suspected these things for years and it is nice to have it documented with real quotes from insiders. But at the end of the day, the country doesn’t care.
I post something like this on Facebook and…crickets.
The country will slide quietly into an authoritarian and corrupt version, beyond anything we have seen and other than a small crowd screaming about it, you will get mostly shrugs from the masses.
I have very little faith in my fellow Americans. These things are just no big deal to them. And mass propaganda works well on a mostly apathetic nation. I feel for the younger generation.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
December 9, 2019 at 5:31 pm #109151wvParticipantI think many people have suspected these things for years and it is nice to have it documented with real quotes from insiders. But at the end of the day, the country doesn’t care.
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Yeah, I had typed a sentence in my post about the public not caring, but I deleted it. I didnt want to beat a dead, decayed, maggoty, maimed, disfigured, very sad horse.
This nation jumped the shark. I dont know when exactly, but its done jumped the shark.
And I’ll say that even if Bernie wins the election. The deep-state is what it is.
w
vDecember 9, 2019 at 6:02 pm #109155
ZooeyParticipantI think many people have suspected these things for years and it is nice to have it documented with real quotes from insiders. But at the end of the day, the country doesn’t care.
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Yeah, I had typed a sentence in my post about the public not caring, but I deleted it. I didnt want to beat a dead, decayed, maggoty, maimed, disfigured, very sad horse.
This nation jumped the shark. I dont know when exactly, but its done jumped the shark.
And I’ll say that even if Bernie wins the election. The deep-state is what it is.
w
vYeah, I was thinking something kinda ironic yesterday…Bernie, and the Green New Deal. Like…it’s GND or die, and it may be too late anyway, even if we get the GND.
But I was thinking…at best, Bernie can save the planet. But he CAN’T save America. The forces of Greed have learned propaganda techniques that work, and there is no antidote. America is over.
I’m leaving, btw. I can’t take it anymore, and I’m out. I’ve got about 3 more years of work before I reach my maximum “multiplier” for my retirement pension, and I’m leaving shortly after I hit the nexus between my age and that multiplier. After I hit that mark, there is less incentive to keep working. I’m going to go set up my life in a different country, probably moving from one country to the next, until I become feeble, or I die, whichever comes first. But I am basically done here. I am seeking a divorce from the United States of America.
December 9, 2019 at 8:07 pm #109166Billy_TParticipantI understand the desire to leave. I would have long ago, if not for poor finances. Despite those poor finances, I retired early because I could no longer stand having a boss, of any kind, at least formerly — and there are the health issues. Of course, whether we work or not, we have them. They surround us and we can’t escape them — bosses. As Norman Mailer said in the pages of Dissent, back in the 1950s, capitalism follows us everywhere.
But at least in that very small way, I’ve “escaped” partially, though I’m still here and struggling. In my own head, I’ve escaped, though not geographically.
Which brings me to another aspect of the desire to leave. It’s complicated, of course.
Is the main rationale for leaving the belief in how much horrible shit we’ve done to the rest of the world, and to ourselves? Or is it to find a better place to be, in and of itself? If it’s the latter, there are ways to be internal exiles, in beautiful settings, and find degrees of happiness here and there. Because, when we really think about it, there are no countries. There are no nation-states. Which is why there is no such thing as a “deep state.” There is One World Government . . . but not in the tin-foil hat, lame-azz, conspiracy sense. In the sense that the capitalist system has made countries obsolete, and it “governs” across all borders, without any serious concern for them, just profits.
So does it really matter where we live? We don’t even escape from the shit we’ve done to ourselves and the rest of the world by going to other countries. It follows us there, too, again, because there are no more boundaries — at least none for the Republic of Profits — or climate change. Human beings, of course, are subject to all kinds of terrors, based on the accident of their birth country, and won’t be admitted if they don’t “look the part.” But there is no national place of innocence. No innocent nation. Less guilty, definitely.
But wherever we Americans go, we bring our “sins” with us.
December 9, 2019 at 8:19 pm #109170Billy_TParticipantIn short, we have this one and only life, and it burns up in a flash. There are ways to be “free” and stay here. There are ways to be in various prisons of the mind overseas, too, even though we have a kind of special (unearned) passport as Americans . . . relatively speaking.
I think it’s time to catch up to and surpass the Republic of Profits and beat them at their own game. We can be free and live innocently to the degree humanly possible . . . anywhere. IMO, if we’re able to live anywhere, basically, there’s no reason not to include this part of the world among our choices too. Borders are meaningless. I’d put the beauty of our natural surroundings near the top of the list, regardless.
So where is the most beautiful place in the world, in your own eyes, ears, heart of hearts? That’s where I’d live if I could. And despite the belief in our abundant “sins,” in the secular sense of that word, if it’s somewhere in the North American continent, within those fictional boundaries that show up on fictional maps, I wouldn’t rule it out.
December 9, 2019 at 8:37 pm #109173Billy_TParticipantSheesh.
I need to reread before I post.
I did one of those “your my favorite teacher” thingies above. Likely several times.
Should be “at least formally.”
Anyway, getting back to surroundings. If I could choose where to live, I’d choose a castle. It would have to be a castle. And the castle would be on a mountain side, overlooking an inlet, with mountains on both sides, sloping down to the sea, and I could see the sea from my castle too, and write my elegies, but someone already has dibs on Duino, so that’s a no go.
I don’t know where such a place is in the world, but that’s where and what I’d pick. I want the ocean and mountains as close as possible to me, which is something the USA lacks pretty much. I saw it in Europe, but I don’t think it’s here. And the other key over there is undeveloped land down to the ocean or sea . . . which is apparently against the law here. It’s well known, of course, that in America, we have to overbuild anywhere that takes your breath away, aesthetically. It’s against the law to have beautiful, unimpeded views of things, so that’s a big strike against us.
The Ring of Kerry in Ireland might be the place. Or the south of France. Not sure. But, again, I need that castle. Maybe Jagger will sell me one of his.
December 10, 2019 at 9:22 am #109167wvParticipantI think many people have suspected these things for years and it is nice to have it documented with real quotes from insiders. But at the end of the day, the country doesn’t care.
===================
Yeah, I had typed a sentence in my post about the public not caring, but I deleted it. I didnt want to beat a dead, decayed, maggoty, maimed, disfigured, very sad horse.
This nation jumped the shark. I dont know when exactly, but its done jumped the shark.
And I’ll say that even if Bernie wins the election. The deep-state is what it is.
w
vYeah, I was thinking something kinda ironic yesterday…Bernie, and the Green New Deal. Like…it’s GND or die, and it may be too late anyway, even if we get the GND.
But I was thinking…at best, Bernie can save the planet. But he CAN’T save America. The forces of Greed have learned propaganda techniques that work, and there is no antidote. America is over.
I’m leaving, btw. I can’t take it anymore, and I’m out. I’ve got about 3 more years of work before I reach my maximum “multiplier” for my retirement pension, and I’m leaving shortly after I hit the nexus between my age and that multiplier. After I hit that mark, there is less incentive to keep working. I’m going to go set up my life in a different country, probably moving from one country to the next, until I become feeble, or I die, whichever comes first. But I am basically done here. I am seeking a divorce from the United States of America.
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Interesting thoughts, Zooey, my friend.
Almost Every single day I sit here and watch utubes of how to build a tiny-house out of cob or barn-wood or tires, etc, and move more-or-less off the grid. Do Permaculture, and that sort of thing. I often feel trapped in my life.
I think I’m too old to make such a big change and to learn a new way of life. I probably wont do it. But i ‘want’ to, and i feel trapped…ah well.
I want a divorce from corporate-civilization.
w
vDecember 10, 2019 at 11:33 am #109193
nittany ramModeratorThe Ring of Kerry in Ireland might be the place. Or the south of France. Not sure. But, again, I need that castle. Maybe Jagger will sell me one of his.
Have you ever been to Ireland, BT? It’s the most beautiful country I’ve ever seen. My wife and I went there a few years ago, although our trip was cut short when our dog sitter called to tell us our dog was ill.
The Ring of Beara is less well known, and therefore less “touristy” than the Ring of Kerry and probably more beautiful. But if you like castles, Ireland will work for you. There’s old castles and abbeys everywhere.
My wife and I seriously considered moving to Canada (Nova Scotia or New Brunswick) after the last election. We started to look into it but then sorta ran out of steam.
December 10, 2019 at 3:28 pm #109196Billy_TParticipantNittany,
I responded to your post, but it looks like it’s caught in the spam filter again.
As mentioned before, you guys should have a way to white-list regulars.
Hope all is well —
December 10, 2019 at 4:13 pm #109200wvParticipant…Is the main rationale for leaving the belief in how much horrible shit we’ve done to the rest of the world, and to ourselves?
Or is it to find a better place to be, in and of itself?
If it’s the latter…=====================
Good questions, Comrad. I can only say, for ‘me’ its just that I cant stand ordinary-amerikans anymore. Its like being surrounded by Frankensteins. They didnt ask to be turned into dangerous-idiots but thats what they are. Blah blah blah.
I just prefer the company of trees, birds, ferns, and tapirs at this point in my life.
Who knows though. Maybe humanity will surprise me, the way the 99 Rams did.
I get caught in the spam filter from time to time now, btw. I blame the deep-spam-state.
w
vDecember 10, 2019 at 4:14 pm #109201wvParticipantDecember 10, 2019 at 7:49 pm #109195Billy_TParticipantThe Ring of Kerry in Ireland might be the place. Or the south of France. Not sure. But, again, I need that castle. Maybe Jagger will sell me one of his.
Have you ever been to Ireland, BT? It’s the most beautiful country I’ve ever seen. My wife and I went there a few years ago, although our trip was cut short when our dog sitter called to tell us our dog was ill.
The Ring of Beara is less well known, and therefore less “touristy” than the Ring of Kerry and probably more beautiful. But if you like castles, Ireland will work for you. There’s old castles and abbeys everywhere.
My wife and I seriously considered moving to Canada (Nova Scotia or New Brunswick) after the last election. We started to look into it but then sorta ran out of steam.
Yes. I went to Ireland in 2003, and did a self-drive, starting in Dublin. September, so it wasn’t too touristy.
Loved pretty much every second of it, with rare exceptions. Rental car, wrong side of the auto, wrong side of the road, etc. But it gave me the kind of freedom I wanted there . . . Though I took advice from the Irish and got on a tour bus for the Ring of Kerry. Glad I did. It’s white-knuckle driving, with very narrow roads, etc. etc . . . and they told me the bus seats are high enough to be able to see over the endless stone fences. I would have missed a lot if I had driven meself, and I may have ended up in the sea.
Loved the Cliffs of Moher too. Breath-taking views. Same year I was told about the Big C, so being in a place I’ve loved from afar my entire life . . . . well, the emotions were swirling. And then to put me over the line, I’m walking up the path to the cliffs when I hear the voice of an angel and her harp, singing Irish songs as if to me alone.
And there were castles. Not as many as in France. But plenty of them regardless. Probably liked Lismore the most.
https://www.lismorecastle.com/photo-gallery
Was also surprised by how good the food was pretty much everywhere I went. And the people were as they’re known to be: friendly, helpful, quick with the story.
I hope to go back. Two weeks isn’t nearly enough time to see all of that beauty.
December 10, 2019 at 8:21 pm #109211ZooeyParticipantGood questions, Comrad. I can only say, for ‘me’ its just that I cant stand ordinary-amerikans anymore.
w
vThat’s the thing. I will never be able to look at many people in my life the way i used to, ever again, as long as I live. I did not realize how deep the rot still goes in this country. Of course, I knew there are racists, and systemic racism, and so on. But I am stunned by just how many people there are who are willing to sacrifice the planet, sacrifice Life On Earth, just as long as they are assured that brown people, and gay people, and so on, will suffer MORE than they do.
And I know that other countries all have their racists, too. It’s not unique to America. But when I am living in another country, I just don’t feel responsible for that country’s zeitgeist. In America, I feel responsible somehow. And I just can’t take it.
You know…living overseas is nothing to be afraid of. There is a short adjustment period, but it’s not as hard or scary as people think it is.
December 10, 2019 at 9:26 pm #109224Billy_TParticipant…Is the main rationale for leaving the belief in how much horrible shit we’ve done to the rest of the world, and to ourselves?
Or is it to find a better place to be, in and of itself?
If it’s the latter…=====================
Good questions, Comrad. I can only say, for ‘me’ its just that I cant stand ordinary-amerikans anymore. Its like being surrounded by Frankensteins. They didnt ask to be turned into dangerous-idiots but thats what they are. Blah blah blah.
I just prefer the company of trees, birds, ferns, and tapirs at this point in my life.
Who knows though. Maybe humanity will surprise me, the way the 99 Rams did.
I get caught in the spam filter from time to time now, btw. I blame the deep-spam-state.
w
vI’m with you on pretty much all of that. But I draw the line at tapirs. No way can I include them in the mix. First off, I don’t know what a tapir even is. And to make my ignorance a virtue, I’ll have to be supremely confident about that sanction. So there!!
I agree about the Deep Spam State. We can trace that labyrinthine horror back to Monty Python, at least. I think they saw it all so clearly even before Chomsky.
December 10, 2019 at 9:54 pm #109225Billy_TParticipantGood questions, Comrad. I can only say, for ‘me’ its just that I cant stand ordinary-amerikans anymore.
w
vThat’s the thing. I will never be able to look at many people in my life the way i used to, ever again, as long as I live. I did not realize how deep the rot still goes in this country. Of course, I knew there are racists, and systemic racism, and so on. But I am stunned by just how many people there are who are willing to sacrifice the planet, sacrifice Life On Earth, just as long as they are assured that brown people, and gay people, and so on, will suffer MORE than they do.
And I know that other countries all have their racists, too. It’s not unique to America. But when I am living in another country, I just don’t feel responsible for that country’s zeitgeist. In America, I feel responsible somehow. And I just can’t take it.
You know…living overseas is nothing to be afraid of. There is a short adjustment period, but it’s not as hard or scary as people think it is.
Again, I would have moved overseas long ago if I had the finances for it.
Agree about the racism and other bigotries surrounding us. But I think we have another major problem here on top of that: Americans can’t even agree about the basics anymore. We can’t even agree about a sun shiny day being sun shiny, etc.
I don’t remember it ever being this bad before. Truth has been colonized, tribalized, politicized to a degree I just don’t think we’ve ever seen here, at least not in my lifetime. It’s straight out of 1984, where the triumph of Big Brother and their ideology isn’t just to get people to accept the system, or agree with it in order to survive, but to actually totally embrace it and love it, love the lies, the disinformation, the cruelty involved with the entire setup.
All too many people aren’t just saying, “Well, it is what it is. We just have to make the best of it.” They’re saying “I’m all in on this, with every fiber of my being, and what they say is the gospel truth!!”
The gaslighting has never been more effective. When the world’s most powerful nation is one of the most reactionary nations in the world, and it’s headed by a cult leader, and his cult is all in . . . that’s some seriously bad mojo, as they used to say in the 1960s.
December 14, 2019 at 10:06 am #109319ZooeyParticipantYeah, so…you’re right about it not mattering where we live in the sense that we can’t escape to a better place geographically. Escaping is mental or spiritual. It’s a state of mind.
But I just think that state of mind is easier when the mind is occupied by other things. If I move to Portugal, or Mallorca, or go back to Thailand, FOX News won’t be on the TV in the lobby. The cars on the street are not gonna have bumper stickers celebrating gun violence. People will not be wearing Trump baseball caps. No confederate flag license plate frames.
Plus…there will be that quaint village with a view of the Mediterranean where I can drink espresso and think about Dido and Aeneas.
Maybe I will go for just a few years. Enough time to regain some youth. And maybe I will come back to find out that Ilhan Omar is president, and there are only 3,500 homeless people nationwide, and Flint has potable water, and Matt Gaetz is working as a security guard at a cineplex.
December 14, 2019 at 10:09 am #109320ZooeyParticipantOn his way to class, a leftist English teacher is stopped by another English teacher, a bright guy who is not a leftist.
Not Leftist (with wild, excited eyes): Hey! Are you teaching The Things They Carried (an excellent Vietnam book) this term?
Leftist: Yeah. Finishing it up right now.
Not Leftist (eagerly): Did you hear about the whole thing that was running in the Washington Post?
Leftist (something about the book? About O’Brien? About Vietnam?): Uh…?
Not Leftist (bursting at the seams): Afghanistan! They’ve been lying about it for 18 years! They’ve been covering up that we’re not getting anywhere.
Leftist: Um….
Not Leftist (Touchdown!): Like Vietnam!
Leftist (who finally sees what we’re doing here, and is staggered by the fact that the fairly bright Not Leftist has just learned that Afghanistan is a quagmire): Um…yeah, I read some of that…(but stopped because there was not one goddamn thing in the article that was news)…amazing.
Not Leftist: Just going in circles pointlessly, like The Things They Carried.
Leftist: Yeah. Cool. Thanks. Good connection. Gotta go. (shuffles off to job that is feels close to pointless some days).
December 14, 2019 at 11:06 am #109322Billy_TParticipantYeah, so…you’re right about it not mattering where we live in the sense that we can’t escape to a better place geographically. Escaping is mental or spiritual. It’s a state of mind.
But I just think that state of mind is easier when the mind is occupied by other things. If I move to Portugal, or Mallorca, or go back to Thailand, FOX News won’t be on the TV in the lobby. The cars on the street are not gonna have bumper stickers celebrating gun violence. People will not be wearing Trump baseball caps. No confederate flag license plate frames.
Plus…there will be that quaint village with a view of the Mediterranean where I can drink espresso and think about Dido and Aeneas.
Maybe I will go for just a few years. Enough time to regain some youth. And maybe I will come back to find out that Ilhan Omar is president, and there are only 3,500 homeless people nationwide, and Flint has potable water, and Matt Gaetz is working as a security guard at a cineplex.
Zooey, again, I get all of that and agree with you. My posts were more of an internal argument than any comment on your plans to be an expat.
And Portugal sounds great. I haven’t been, but my mom and stepdad went there as often as they could when they lived in Holland. My mother, especially, loved it. It’s also, from what I hear, affordable for expats, depending on where you settle.
It’s on my list along with Spain, the south of France, and Ireland, perhaps.
For me, along with all the things you mentioned you’d be escaping here, there’s a tremendous additioncultural markers than we just don’t have. The art, architecture, history, castles, ancient ruins, etc. etc. . . . and this still holds in most of Europe: They work to live. We live to work. I think our view of life is beyond inferior.
Regardless, best of luck with your plans. If a miracle happens for me and I can gather the funds, I’m moving overseas too.
December 14, 2019 at 11:08 am #109323
znModeratorLeftist: Yeah. Cool. Thanks. Good connection. Gotta go. (shuffles off to job that is feels close to pointless some days).
The NL prof has had years to train himself to ignore real analysis and history.
The students haven’t. So the L prof just brings up Afghanistan in class.
It won’t be a 100% break through, it never is. But it will be an important moment for some.
December 14, 2019 at 11:18 am #109324Billy_TParticipantAlso,
If memory serves, you teach literature and theater, so you’d likely already know these authors, and probably going way back in your life.
But just in case . . . Fernando Pessoa and Jose Saramago are two extraordinary Portuguese authors. My memory fails me on others I may have read in the past. I’ve read some great Brazilian writers too . . . Machado de Assis, Clarice Lispector, Rachel de Queiroz and Gracilianos Ramos. Lispector is like no one else. I’ve only read her and the other authors in translation, so I’m likely missing a ton, especially with Lispector. Her novels and short stories are said to be almost untranslatable. Mood is everything, the music of her sentences, the surreality of her settings.
Question: I remember you used to live in Thailand, and perhaps other parts of Asia? Can you recommend some great Thai authors?
December 14, 2019 at 11:22 am #109325Billy_TParticipantOn his way to class, a leftist English teacher is stopped by another English teacher, a bright guy who is not a leftist.
Not Leftist (with wild, excited eyes): Hey! Are you teaching The Things They Carried (an excellent Vietnam book) this term?
Leftist: Yeah. Finishing it up right now.
Not Leftist (eagerly): Did you hear about the whole thing that was running in the Washington Post?
Leftist (something about the book? About O’Brien? About Vietnam?): Uh…?
Not Leftist (bursting at the seams): Afghanistan! They’ve been lying about it for 18 years! They’ve been covering up that we’re not getting anywhere.
Leftist: Um….
Not Leftist (Touchdown!): Like Vietnam!
Leftist (who finally sees what we’re doing here, and is staggered by the fact that the fairly bright Not Leftist has just learned that Afghanistan is a quagmire): Um…yeah, I read some of that…(but stopped because there was not one goddamn thing in the article that was news)…amazing.
Not Leftist: Just going in circles pointlessly, like The Things They Carried.
Leftist: Yeah. Cool. Thanks. Good connection. Gotta go. (shuffles off to job that is feels close to pointless some days).
Haven’t read that book or anything else by O’Brien. Is it worth a read? One of your characters above says so, enthusiastically.
December 14, 2019 at 3:27 pm #109341wvParticipantOn his way to class, a leftist English teacher is stopped by another English teacher, a bright guy who is not a leftist.
Not Leftist (with wild, excited eyes): Hey! Are you teaching The Things They Carried (an excellent Vietnam book) this term?
Leftist: Yeah. Finishing it up right now.
Not Leftist (eagerly): Did you hear about the whole thing that was running in the Washington Post?
Leftist (something about the book? About O’Brien? About Vietnam?): Uh…?
Not Leftist (bursting at the seams): Afghanistan! They’ve been lying about it for 18 years! They’ve been covering up that we’re not getting anywhere.
Leftist: Um….
Not Leftist (Touchdown!): Like Vietnam!
Leftist (who finally sees what we’re doing here, and is staggered by the fact that the fairly bright Not Leftist has just learned that Afghanistan is a quagmire): Um…yeah, I read some of that…(but stopped because there was not one goddamn thing in the article that was news)…amazing.
Not Leftist: Just going in circles pointlessly, like The Things They Carried.
Leftist: Yeah. Cool. Thanks. Good connection. Gotta go. (shuffles off to job that is feels close to pointless some days).
====================
Yup.
w
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