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October 15, 2023 at 12:32 am #146122znModerator
October 15, 2023 at 12:52 am #146126znModerator
October 17, 2023 at 2:04 pm #146215
MackeyserModeratorWhat’s happening in apartheid Israel isn’t shocking, but it is sickening and devastating in every sense of the word.
that the state of Israel has become the genocidal state it is now is heartbreaking for all the civilians in both sides that simply desire peace.
the unadulterated pictures are horrific.
i know the pain of losing a child. I can’t imagine the pain of losing one’s entire family in a blast. Targeting hospitals and schools?
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
October 17, 2023 at 9:46 pm #146235
ZooeyParticipantI’m just appalled. What’s happening. People’s reaction to it. The media coverage. It’s appalling.
October 18, 2023 at 4:10 am #146243znModeratorIsrael’s Most Important Papers Have Been Merciless to Netanyahu. Good On Them.
I cannot help but think back to 2001, and the absolutely supine reaction of the American press to the attacks of 9/11.
Trying to keep up with what’s going on in Israel and in Gaza, I am consistently amazed by how much of the Israeli press nonetheless has been harshly critical of the Netanyahu government, and of the man who leads it, and how strongly and immediately they have demanded that the government be held accountable for its contributions to the massive intelligence failure and for its attempt to thwart the possibility of a two-state solution by playing footsie with Hamas. Haaretz has been absolutely merciless in its criticism of Netanyahu. In an editorial one day after the attacks, Haaretz wrote,
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians…
Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time. This was the reason for establishing this horrific coalition and the judicial coup advanced by Netanyahu, and for the enfeeblement of top army and intelligence officers, who were perceived as political opponents. The price was paid by the victims of the invasion in the Western Negev.
And, on Sunday, the Times of Israel chimed in,
For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group. The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state. Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015. According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
I cannot help but think back to 2001, and the absolutely supine reaction of the American press to the attacks of 9/11. The flag pins. The abandonment of any skepticism that allowed the Bush Administration to dodge its responsibility for the biggest US intelligence failure since Pearl Harbor. The fog of patriotic bombast that allowed the mini-Caesars and laptop bombardiers to drag us all into a war in Iraq based of lies and stovepiped intelligence. Imagine a major American news operation that wrote as ferociously about the Bush administration’s failures on September 12, 2001 as Haaretz wrote on this past Sunday. Imagine if there were as searching an examination of American meddling in the Middle East as the one that Times of Israel made of the current Israeli government’s attempt to use Hamas as a hammer on the idea of a two-state solution. If you can imagine those things, I commend you, because I can’t. However, I admire the journalists in Israel who, literally under fire, nonetheless are fulfilling their obligations to hold accountable the people in power who are now running a war. It’s a testimony to democracy far more eloquent than any flag pin or the biggest bouquet of yellow ribbons.
October 18, 2023 at 3:19 pm #146258
wvParticipantNot about the current situation, but somethin i noticed today:
for over 70 years Israel denied that it intentionally poisoned wells of Palestinians as part of its ethnic cleansing mass terror campaign. If you disagreed the Western media class called you an evil monster. Turns out they were lying, as Israeli scholars admitted last year: pic.twitter.com/46disBVQLK
— ☀️👀 (@zei_squirrel) October 18, 2023
October 18, 2023 at 8:26 pm #146270
Billy_TParticipantA fraught subject, and incredibly sensitive for many. But certain aspects really shouldn’t be this difficult. Murder in response to murder is still murder. And the continuum in that part of the world is far too blurred at this point to demarcate who did what to whom first. Too many want to start the atrocity clock this month, though. As all of you guys know, it goes back to the early part of the 20th century, perhaps the late 19th, and as usual, the “Great Powers” tried to play god, carve up an entire region, and set all hell in motion.
Recreating a “homeland” after roughly two thousand years was destined to cause endless strife, war, and misery. I understand the desire for a safe space, a true home, after all Jews have suffered through, but it never should have been on land that was already occupied. It became, on a much smaller scale, all too similar to our theft of Native American land, but without the aspect of a “return.”
It’s also reminded me of our own obscene brutality in wars, like our fire-bombing of Dresden, Tokyo, and dropping the Atomic bombs. None of that was necessary, and it all targeted civilians, directly. There were no “accidental” killings in those cases, no “collateral damage.” Slaughtering civilians was the point. That’s beyond appalling, and it should never. happen. again.
This article is well worth reading:
You Can’t Selectively Pay Attention To Certain Atrocities And Ignore All The Others
How is it possible to be outraged by Hamas killings of Israeli children, but ignore or rationalize the killing of Gazan children?
Nathan J. Robinson
October 21, 2023 at 9:47 am #146328Billy_TParticipantAside from the obvious matters of death and destruction, which makes everything else secondary, I’m most frustrated with the following, in no particular order:
1. The lop-sided, blindly loyal (MSM) coverage of these events
2. The dangerous inability of all too many people to differentiate between wildly different things: Being “pro-Palestinian” versus “pro-Hamas; criticism of governments versus criticism of an entire people; criticisms of the far-right government of Israel versus any support whatsoever for Hamas, or terrorism in general; the conflation of Hamas with the Gazan people.
3. Far too many want us to believe there is no history, no context, that everything apparently started on October 7th, 2023, and anyone (including students) who doesn’t blindly follow the PC view (support Israel unconditionally), is somehow evil and should be punished.
4. The moronic idea that violent retaliation will put an end to violence. That killing stops killing. That war is the answer to everything. That US funding of that war is necessary, rather than advocating for peace, relentlessly, and tying all aid to serious, genuine, relentless efforts at peace.
5. That so many people have lost the ability to walk in any one else’s moccasins.We’re all guilty of blindness now and then, of course. None of us is above that at all times. But one would hope that we’re also open to “I stand corrected” if the evidence warrants it. It seems that’s a lost part of the human experience for all too many these days.
Lastly, I also find it absurd that after the hospital bombing report was contested, some ranted and raved that the supposed “lies spread on social media and by public figures” were unforgivable, and also should be punished. Common sense, logic, and physics all tell us the natural deduction in that case was to blame the far-right Israeli government, given its current bombing campaign. When one country drops more than 6000 on another, who else is the likely culprit? Drop that many bombs on a tiny strip of land, with roughly 2 million inhabitants, and the chances of blowing up hospitals is very, very high. It was the logical deduction to make.
October 21, 2023 at 1:33 pm #146331znModeratorWorth listening to Saudi intelligence chief. Speaks with rare clarity. pic.twitter.com/pfJ1wYcDn7
— Rajdeep Sardesai (@sardesairajdeep) October 20, 2023
October 22, 2023 at 9:47 am #146349ZooeyParticipantI watched my youngest daughter coloring her book, then I watched these children in Gaza writing their names on their arms so they can be identified in case they die in the next Israeli airstrike. I wept. Something about seeing the stolen humanity of these Palestinian children… pic.twitter.com/xWQ76vC3nw
— Dr. Omar Suleiman (@omarsuleiman504) October 22, 2023
October 22, 2023 at 11:54 am #146357Billy_TParticipantI’ve recently read a couple of open letters from Arts organizations on this conflict, and I can’t for the life of me see how any of them should be condemned, or silenced, or “cancelled,” or why any of the signees would choose to recant. But that’s the current “PC” zeitgeist in the West. Slam, condemn, silence, block from employment, or worse, anyone who dares speak out against violence on all sides.
Here’s the London Review of Books open letter. Since the filter keeps blocking me when I add links, please do that duckduckgo thingy for sourcing:
(basic guideline: www . lrb . co . uk/ blog/ 2023/ october/ an-open-letter-on-the-situation-in-palestine)
LRB Blog
18 OCTOBER 2023
An Open Letter on the Situation in PalestineWe, the undersigned artists and writers based in the EU, the UK and North America, are speaking out to demand an end to the violence and destruction in Palestine.
The deliberate killing of civilians is always an atrocity. It is a violation of international law and an outrage against the sanctity of human life. Neither Israel, the occupying power, nor the armed groups of the people under occupation, the Palestinians, can ever be justified in targeting defenceless people. We can only express our grief and heartbreak for the victims of these most recent tragedies, and for their families, both Palestinians and Israelis.
Nothing can retrieve what has already been lost. But the unprecedented and indiscriminate violence that is still escalating against the 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza, with the financial and political support of Western powers, can and must be brought to an end. By cutting off vital electricity, food and water supplies; by attempting to displace by force over one million Palestinians from their homes, with no guarantee of return; and by carrying out continual airstrikes against civilians, including those who are attempting to evacuate, the state of Israel is committing grave crimes against humanity. Its allies, our own governments, are complicit in these crimes.
Human rights groups have long condemned Israel’s occupation of Palestine and the inhumane treatment of – and system of racial domination over – Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli state. But we are now witnessing a new and even more drastic emergency. The UN expert Francesca Albanese has warned that Israel’s current actions in Gaza constitute a form of ethnic cleansing. The Israeli historian Raz Segal has described the situation in Gaza as a ‘textbook case of genocide’.
We call on our governments to demand an immediate ceasefire and the unimpeded admission of humanitarian aid into Gaza. We also demand an end to all arms shipments and military funding, supplies that can only exacerbate the humanitarian catastrophe at hand. Although these measures will not be enough to secure true justice, liberation and equality, they represent an urgent and indispensable first step. We plead for an end to all violence, an end to all oppression and denial of human rights, and a path towards a just and sustainable peace for all.
Sally Rooney, Naomi Klein, Gillian Slovo, Kamila Shamsie, Kathleen Alcott, Kevin Barry, Sara Baume, Claire-Louise Bennett, Ronan Bennett, Fatima Bhutto, David Butler, June Caldwell, Seamus Cashman, Rachel Connolly, Selma Dabbagh, Margaretta D’Arcy, Edwidge Danticat, Natalie Diaz, Reni Eddo-Lodge, Yara El-Ghadban, Anne Enright, Caleb Femi, Esther Freud, Mia Gallagher, Francisco Goldman, Abdulrazak Gurnah, Isabella Hammad, Honor Heffernan, Rita Ann Higgins, Louise Kennedy, Trevor Knight, Laila Lalami, Ben Lerner, Jonathan Lethem, Patricia Lockwood, Andrea Long Chu, Rosa Lyster, Carmen Maria Machado, Sophie Mackintosh, Niall MacMonagle, Lisa McInerney, Maaza Mengiste, China Miéville, Pankaj Mishra, Sepideh Moafi, Noor Naga, Viet Nguyen, Megan Nolan, Iman Qureshi, Youssef Rakha, Yara Rodrigues Fowler, James Schamus, Olivia Sudjic, Susan Tomaselli, Eley Williams, Gary Younge …
Click here to see the full list of 750 signatures
October 22, 2023 at 11:59 am #146358Billy_TParticipantAlso, I don’t know if any of the folks who signed this on the 18th recanted yet, but we’ve heard some high profile celebs do so, with their respective open letters.
Another was published in artforum dot com, with the headline:
AN OPEN LETTER FROM THE ART COMMUNITY TO CULTURAL ORGANIZATIONS
By the undersignedOctober 19, 2023 5:29 pm
They published a response which “condemns” this. Again, not seeing why.
October 22, 2023 at 12:52 pm #146360
nittany ramModeratorMy elderly father lives with us. He is nearly blind, deaf, and barely ambulatory.
He watches the news on his ipad because he can’t see the TV very well. Unfortunately, given his hearing that means the ipad is usually at full volume so we are forced to listen to it too. He mainly watches/listens to CNN, MSNBC, and FOX.
Prior to my father moving in, I hadn’t listened to main stream news in years, but if anyone thinks there is an appreciable difference between what passes for left wing and right wing news in this country, they should listen to the reporting on what’s happening in Gaza. It is so blatantly pro-Israeli that I defy anyone to close their eyes and listen to the broadcasts and tell me which news outlet they’re listening to.
October 22, 2023 at 8:14 pm #146380Billy_TParticipantNittany,
Sorry to hear about your father. That’s gotta be tough to deal with. Heart-breaking, really.
As for the media, not saying anything new: but . . . the American MSM has always been center-right, and it’s controlled by conservative multinationals and conservative billionaires. It’s never, ever been remotely “liberal,” and it avoids leftists like the plague. Whenever I hear or read right-wingers whining ab0ut its supposed (completely non-existent) “bias” toward them, it brings to mind a vision of something that must have happened from time to time in the past:
Scientists, philosophers, and ship captains, shaking their heads at the “authorities” who tell them the earth is flat.
October 23, 2023 at 4:29 pm #146400nittany ramModeratorThanks BT.
Can’t say my father is enjoying life at this point, because he isn’t, but he has about as good of a demeanor as one could possibly have given his situation. My wife and I are sometimes amazed by it. Tough generation.
October 25, 2023 at 3:07 am #146441znModeratorMy goodness 😳.
They might assassinate him for his truth pic.twitter.com/LvceX27YyS
— Fahad Amir (@FahadAmirN) October 17, 2023
October 25, 2023 at 11:04 pm #146456ZooeyParticipantThis is very long for Twitter, and I haven’t even finished reading it yet, but it’s quite interesting, and says a lot of stuff I haven’t encountered elsewhere.
Here's a thread outlining the geopolitical situation around the Israel-Gaza war its possibilities, impossibilities, and possible outcomes. Heads up, it's my longest thread yet. It's also raw, unedited, and unevenly paced. Sorry, none of us are well but at least we're trying
— İyad el-Baghdadi | إياد البغدادي (@iyad_elbaghdadi) October 23, 2023
October 26, 2023 at 9:31 am #146460znModeratorThis is very long for Twitter, and I haven’t even finished reading it yet, but it’s quite interesting, and says a lot of stuff I haven’t encountered elsewhere.
İyad el-Baghdadi | إياد البغدادي@iyad_elbaghdadiHere’s a thread outlining the geopolitical situation around the Israel-Gaza war its possibilities, impossibilities, and possible outcomes.That’s a good resource.
October 26, 2023 at 10:35 am #146462ZooeyParticipantThat’s a good resource.
I just tried this app for the first time. It unrolls the thread into a more readable format, but comes with a warning that this link may be deleted by Twitter. (I dunno if it means the tweet that contains the link, or the unrolled page)
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716532694564127072.html
November 10, 2023 at 5:18 pm #146715wvParticipant— Matthew J Garbincus (@garbincus) November 10, 2023
November 14, 2023 at 1:07 pm #146770nittany ramModeratorGenocidal pop culture is going viral in Israel🧵
This, singing along with IDF soldiers:"We've turned you into Kebab
Hide animals!
We have bombs & explosives
Where is your great Muhammad?
He will not save you this time!” pic.twitter.com/vLwJfAC0pv— Muhammad Shehada (@muhammadshehad2) November 14, 2023
November 15, 2023 at 7:44 pm #146786znModerator
November 16, 2023 at 2:00 am #146788znModeratorBelieve it or not, this amounts to a pretty good summary.
…
November 16, 2023 at 6:30 pm #146799wvParticipantWell…its better than i expected but it doesnt really represent my view. Its what i have heard described as a ‘soft zionist’ view.
I mean nowhere in that vid is the word ‘occupation’ even uttered. Seems to me, He kinda starts from the premise that both sides are equally innocent and equally guilty or something close to that.
One of my questions is this — is it even possible to legitimately argue a group is a ‘terrorist group’ when said group is fighting a murderous occupation? Was the ANC a ‘terrorist group’ when they were burning people alive, as they fought against apartheid in South Africa? Were the Black Panthers ‘terrorists’ when they were robbing stores to get money for ‘the revolution’ ? Were the Earth First folks ‘terrorists’ for blowing stuff up in their fight against capitalist-ecocide?
I dunno. I’m hopeless, I’m afraid.
I noted Chomsky asked this question in an old video: If the Palestinians remain peaceful, what changes will Israel make? (the obvious answer, being Nothing, None, Zip. Just a slow continuation of expanding settlements and ruthless occupation)
w
v
November 16, 2023 at 7:50 pm #146804znModeratorWhere I am going to differ is in the defense of terrorism. First there are South African militants who condemned the “neck tie” burnings. So that’s not a universal example of battling apartheid. But my main thing is, everyone who commits terror believes in their hearts it’s in the name of a just cause. That includes the KKK with its lynchings, McVeigh and Oklahoma, the Nazis in their ascent to power, Mussolini’s fascists, and so on…for that matter it includes the illegal settlement mafia that attacks West Bank Palestinians to drive them off their land. If we say to them our cause is true and yours isn’t, they say the same to us.
So I never excuse anything that can just be used by the other side, using the same rationale.
I also don’t equate Hamas with Palestinians.
And in case that sounds like some thin anti-muslim veneer, during the conflict between the Israeli state forces and Hezbollah, I defended Hezbollah.
The current Israeli government promoted Hamas. Not enough people know that yet.
To me the left and wars of liberation have to honestly act like they really are better, not just in their principles but in their tactics. That can be done in ways that are pragmatic and effective, so I don’t accept the Stalin-like argument that the other side plays dirty so you have to too (that’s not addressed to anyone here–it’s something I hear around sometimes when these issues come up).
To quote The Hound (it’s the exchange that starts at 3:20):
November 16, 2023 at 8:53 pm #146806nittany ramModeratorIsrael has wiped out over 900 bloodlines in Gaza since October 7th. As in, killed every single living member of the family, in every generation. As in, no survivors of that family name. As in – genocide. https://t.co/2ICUSKGQTq
— Shailja Patel (@shailjapatel) November 16, 2023
November 18, 2023 at 5:14 pm #146831wvParticipantWhere I am going to differ is in the defense of terrorism. First there are South African militants who condemned the “neck tie” burnings. So that’s not a universal example of battling apartheid. But my main thing is, everyone who commits terror believes in their hearts it’s in the name of a just cause. That includes the KKK with its lynchings, McVeigh and Oklahoma, the Nazis in their ascent to power, Mussolini’s fascists, and so on…for that matter it includes the illegal settlement mafia that attacks West Bank Palestinians to drive them off their land. If we say to them our cause is true and yours isn’t, they say the same to us. So I never excuse anything that can just be used by the other side, using the same rationale. I also don’t equate Hamas with Palestinians. And in case that sounds like some thin anti-muslim veneer, during the conflict between the Israeli state forces and Hezbollah, I defended Hezbollah. The current Israeli government promoted Hamas. Not enough people know that yet. To me the left and wars of liberation have to honestly act like they really are better, not just in their principles but in their tactics. That can be done in ways that are pragmatic and effective, so I don’t accept the Stalin-like argument that the other side plays dirty so you have to too (that’s not addressed to anyone here–it’s something I hear around sometimes when these issues come up). To quote The Hound (it’s the exchange that starts at 3:20): <iframe title=”The Hound meets the Brotherhood – BRILLIANT dialogues | Game of Thrones” src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/71KqyxYb-dM?feature=oembed” width=”690″ height=”388″ frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen=”allowfullscreen”></iframe>
Well, I dunno, but I just cant see any way the Palestinians can achieve any kind of justice/land by peaceful means. Can you imagine Israel budging an inch on any of this?
I also ant see any way the Palestinians can achieve any kind of justice/land by violent means. Can you imagine Israel/USA losing a war to the Palestinians?
So….
I cant condemn Hamas. I cant condemn any ‘terrorist’ group who is in the position Hamas is in.
I also cant praise or cheer or celebrate what Hamas did. I cant ‘go there’ either.
So, i just stay silent on the Hamas part of this.
On the Israeli Occupation part of it — i never shut up.
w
v
November 18, 2023 at 11:51 pm #146838znModeratorWell, I dunno, but I just cant see any way the Palestinians can achieve any kind of justice/land by peaceful means. Can you imagine Israel budging an inch on any of this?
I can see a return to the 2-state proposal if Israel can get out from under its right wing. Remember Rabin was moving toward that and was assasinated by an Israeli right-wing militant. I think it’s no accident that Netanyahu and his types supported Hamas, financially and in other ways–they didn’t want a unified Gaza/West Bank Palestinian front that could push for the Rabin solution. That of course is counter to the settlers pushing the West Bank, but then one way Israel gets away with that is by supporting Hamas’s power in Gaza, dividing the Palestinian bloc.
And I didn’t say only peaceful means. But what I can’t justify is slaughtering civilians, and that’s whether the KKK does it for the sake of white supremacy or if Hamas does it for the sake of Palestinian rights (though I doubt that’s why they do it). There;s always someone who feels they fight for what’s right and true and just so it’s not terrorism. To me it doesn’t matter if it’s “their guys for the wrong cause” or “our guys for the right cause.” Both defend their actions the same way with the same rhetoric and I have always believed all of them doing that are wrong. So I absolutely condemn Hamas totally and to me that is completely separate thing from us supporting Palestinian rights.
Remember, when the Israelis fought Hezbollah years ago and we discussed it on an early version of this board, and I defended Hezbollah in the context of that conflict. Hezbollah did not act like Isis or Hamas. In fact to me it’s obvious that Hamas is bad for Palestinians–in Gaza, they suppress elections and torture and execute their Palestinian critics.
November 19, 2023 at 1:58 pm #146846wvParticipantNovember 21, 2023 at 1:40 pm #146927 -
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