Exploitation of Veteran's Day

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  • #44937
    wv
    Participant

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/11/the-exploitation-of-veterans-day/

    The Exploitation of Veterans Day

    How should we observe Veterans Day? By working to eradicate war and the economic system that helps produce it.

    by Eugene V. Debs

    Library of Congress

    Library of Congress

    I have just returned from a visit over yonder, where three of our most loyal comrades are paying the penalty for their devotion to the cause of the working class. They have come to realize, as many of us have, that it is extremely dangerous to exercise the constitutional right of free speech in a country fighting to make democracy safe in the world.

    I realize that, in speaking to you this afternoon, there are certain limitations placed upon the right of free speech. I must be exceedingly careful, prudent, as to what I say, and even more careful and prudent as to how I say it. I may not be able to say all I think; but I am not going to say anything that I do not think.

    I would rather a thousand times be a free soul in jail than to be a sycophant and coward in the streets. They may put those boys in jail — and some of the rest of us in jail — but they cannot put the socialist movement in jail. Those prison bars separate their bodies from ours, but their souls are here this afternoon. They are simply paying the penalty that all men have paid in all the ages of history for standing erect, and for seeking to pave the way to better conditions for mankind.

    If it had not been for the men and women who, in the past, have had the moral courage to go to jail, we would still be in the jungles.

    They tell us that we live in a great free republic; that our institutions are democratic; that we are a free and self-governing people. This is too much, even for a joke. But it is not a subject for levity; it is an exceedingly serious matter.

    The other day they sentenced Kate Richards O’Hare to the penitentiary for five years. Think of sentencing a woman to the penitentiary simply for talking. The United States, under plutocratic rule, is the only country that would send a woman to prison for five years for exercising the right of free speech. If this be treason, let them make the most of it.

    Who appoints our federal judges? The people? In all the history of the country, the working class have never named a federal judge. There are 121 of these judges and every solitary one holds his position, his tenure, through the influence and power of corporate capital. The corporations and trusts dictate their appointment. And when they go to the bench, they go, not to serve, the people, but to serve the interests that place them and keep them where they are.

    Why, the other day, by a vote of 5-4 — a kind of craps game — come seven, come ’leven — they declared the child labor law unconstitutional — a law secured after twenty years of education and agitation on the part of all kinds of people.

    And yet, by a majority of one, the Supreme Court a body of corporation lawyers, with just one exception, wiped that law from the statute books — and this in our so-called democracy — so that we may continue to grind the flesh and blood and bones of puny little children into profits for the Junkers of Wall Street.

    And this in a country that boasts of fighting to make the world safe for democracy! The history of this country is being written in the blood of the childhood the industrial lords have murdered.

    These are not palatable truths to them. They do not like to hear them; and what is more they do not want you to hear them. And that is why they brand us as undesirable citizens, and as disloyalists and traitors.

    If we were actual traitors — traitors to the people and to their welfare and progress, we would be regarded as eminently respectable citizens of the republic; we would hold high office, have princely incomes, and ride in limousines; and we would be pointed out as the elect who have succeeded in life in honorable pursuit, and worthy of emulation by the youth of the land. It is precisely because we are disloyal to the traitors that we are loyal to the people of this nation.

    Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder. In the Middle Ages, when the feudal lords who inhabited the castles whose towers may still be seen along the Rhine concluded to enlarge their domains, to increase their power, their prestige, and their wealth, they declared war upon one another.

    But they themselves did not go to war any more than the modern feudal lords, the barons of Wall Street go to war. The feudal barons of the Middle Ages, the economic predecessors of the capitalists of our day, declared all wars. And their miserable serfs fought all the battles.

    The poor, ignorant serfs had been taught to revere their masters; to believe that when their masters declared war upon one another, it was their patriotic duty to fall upon one another and to cut one another’s throats for the profit and glory of the lords and barons who held them in contempt.
    And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles. The master class has had all to gain and nothing to lose, while the subject class has had nothing to gain and all to lose — especially their lives.

    They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and to have yourselves slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world, you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people.

    What a compliment it is to the socialist movement to be thus persecuted for the sake of the truth! The truth alone will… see link

    #44938
    wv
    Participant

    ================================
    http://noglory.org/index.php/articles/346-how-the-uk-government-is-rebranding-the-first-world-war-to-promote-militarism-today
    How the UK government is rebranding the first world war to promote militarism today

    ……

    …What, you may ask, is wrong with celebrating heroes in this way?
    War to end all wars

    It is an attempt to rewrite the history of the war as somehow glorious and necessary. The war was an ugly clash of imperial rivalries, marked by the unspeakable horrors of trench warfare. Far from proving “the war to end of all wars”, it scarred a nation whose sons would be sent to die against the same enemy within a generation.

    Veterans also tend to baulk at their lauding as “heroes”, explaining themselves more humbly as men just doing their jobs and looking out for their comrades. Great War memorials rarely record either rank or medals, but are starkly simple alphabetical lists of all those who had their lives taken from them. By singling out only those men who received the top military award, the government is tearing up a century of practice.

    Why has the government taken this radical departure? The answer is in part a reaction to the public scepticism about military operations that has become mainstream with the failures of the “War on Terror”. The unprecedented anti-war demonstrations against the Afghanistan and Iraq wars in the early 2000s may represent a sea-change in public attitudes to foreign wars. This has alarmed conservative politicians of all parties and the military top brass, who have been scrambling to regain ground ever since….. see link

    #44939
    bnw
    Blocked

    There is only one Debs. While I agree with his take on war especially given the neocon chickenhawks of today he seems to have forgotten the French Revolution.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #44943
    wv
    Participant

    There is only one Debs. While I agree with his take on war especially given the neocon chickenhawks of today he seems to have forgotten the French Revolution.

    ————-
    Are there “just” wars? Good wars? Bad wars? Is every war unique
    or are there universals involved? Which wars were ‘good’ ?

    I dunno. But generally speaking, the poor get killed and the rich
    do not.

    w
    v
    Göring:
    Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or..
    Gilbert:
    There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring:
    Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” Herman Goering (wikiquote)

    #44944
    bnw
    Blocked

    There is only one Debs. While I agree with his take on war especially given the neocon chickenhawks of today he seems to have forgotten the French Revolution.

    ————-
    Are there “just” wars? Good wars? Bad wars? Is every war unique
    or are there universals involved? Which wars were ‘good’ ?

    I dunno. But generally speaking, the poor get killed and the rich
    do not.

    w
    v
    Göring:
    Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or..
    Gilbert:
    There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring:
    Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” Herman Goering (wikiquote)

    Well you answered your own questions regarding universalities and war. Göring summed it up well. Joe 6-pack has nothing to gain from going to war and everything to lose. It is encoded in our DNA. The leaders lie and false flag their way to fear mongering the people to acquiesce to war. They were bottle fed as babies.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #44946
    wv
    Participant

    Göring summed it up well. Joe 6-pack has nothing to gain from going to war and everything to lose. It is encoded in our DNA. The leaders lie and false flag their way to fear mongering the people to acquiesce to war…

    —————

    Well DNA is always involved in all that humans do, i suppose, whether its wage-peace or wage-war….but yes, I’d say Goring summed it up well.

    There will be a parade in my town today or tomorrow celebrating…somethin. War, or soldiers or somethin.

    Wagers-of-Peace get no parades in appalachia.

    w
    v
    “Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.” – General Douglas MacArthur

    “The argument that there are just wars often rests on the social system of the nation engaging in war. It is supposed that if a ‘liberal’ state is at war with a ‘totalitarian’ state, then the war is justified. The beneficent nature of a government was assumed to give rightness to the wars it wages.

    …Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt were liberals, which gave credence to their words exalting the two world wars, just as the liberalism of Truman made going into Korea more acceptable and the idealism of Kennedy’s New Frontier and Johnson’s Great Society gave an early glow of righteousness to the war in Vietnam.

    What the experience of Athens suggests is that a nation may be relatively liberal at home and yet totally ruthless abroad. Indeed, it may more easily enlist its population in cruelty to others by pointing to the advantages at home. An entire nation is made into mercenaries, being paid with a bit of democracy at home for participating in the destruction of life abroad.”
    ― Howard Zinn, Declarations of Independence: Cross-Examining American Ideology

    ——-
    Let the People Vote on War By Allen L. Benson
    (American Socialist writer, born 1871)
    EACH voter should sign his or her name to the ballot that is voted. In counting, the ballots for war should be kept apart from the ballots against war. In the event of more than half of the population voting for war, those who voted for war should be sent to the front in the order in which they appeared at their respective polling places. Nobody who voted against war should be called to serve until everybody who voted for war had been sent to the front.

    #44949
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    I don’t think wars are just or unjust. That’s dependent on the perspective of the combatants. And those perspectives change over time. Wars considered just at the time they were fought often become unjust as facts surrounding the causes become available, etc…

    #44951
    bnw
    Blocked

    I don’t think wars are just or unjust. That’s dependent on the perspective of the combatants. And those perspectives change over time. Wars considered just at the time they were fought often become unjust as facts surrounding the causes become available, etc…

    Interesting. However I don’t buy it, not completely. Take the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Truman had a choice. Ask his nation to endure what he was told would be 1 million US casualties in an invasion of the Japanese homeland, or drop two atomic bombs in an effort to force surrender.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #44952
    TSRF
    Participant

    Funny (not funny ha ha, funny ironic) debate. Depending on how I do the math, we (the USA) have been in a constant state of war since 2001 or 1941.

    Pick either date, it really doesn’t matter. I don’t see us getting out of this war without end any time soon. Do you?

    Life During Wartime

    Heard of a van that is loaded with weapons,
    Packed up and ready to go
    Heard of some grave sites, out by the highway,
    A place where nobody knows

    The sound of gunfire, off in the distance,
    I’m getting used to it now
    Lived in a brownstone, lived in a ghetto,
    I’ve lived all over this town

    This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco,
    This ain’t no fooling around
    No time for dancing, or lovey dovey,
    I ain’t got time for that now

    Transmit the message, to the receiver,
    Hope for an answer some day
    I got three passports, a couple of visas,
    You don’t even know my real name

    High on a hillside, the trucks are loading,
    Everything’s ready to roll
    I sleep in the daytime, I work in the nighttime,
    I might not ever get home

    This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco,
    This ain’t no fooling around
    This ain’t no Mudd Club, or C. B. G. B.,
    I ain’t got time for that now

    Heard about Houston? Heard about Detroit?
    Heard about Pittsburgh, P. A.?
    You oughta know not to stand by the window
    Somebody see you up there

    I got some groceries, some peanut butter,
    To last a couple of days
    But I ain’t got no speakers, ain’t got no headphones,
    Ain’t got no records to play

    Why stay in college? Why go to night school?
    Gonna be different this time
    Can’t write a letter, can’t send no postcard,
    I ain’t got time for that now

    Trouble in transit, got through the roadblock,
    We blended in with the crowd
    We got computers, we’re tapping phone lines,
    I know that that ain’t allowed

    We dress like students, we dress like housewives,
    Or in a suit and a tie
    I changed my hairstyle, so many times now,
    I don’t know what I look like!

    You make me shiver, I feel so tender,
    We make a pretty good team
    Don’t get exhausted, I’ll do some driving,
    You ought to get you some sleep

    Burned all my notebooks, what good are notebooks?
    They won’t help me survive
    My chest is aching, burns like a furnace,
    The burning keeps me alive

    Read more: Talking Heads – Life During Wartime Lyrics | MetroLyrics

    #44956
    Billy_T
    Participant

    I don’t think wars are just or unjust. That’s dependent on the perspective of the combatants. And those perspectives change over time. Wars considered just at the time they were fought often become unjust as facts surrounding the causes become available, etc…

    Interesting. However I don’t buy it, not completely. Take the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Truman had a choice. Ask his nation to endure what he was told would be 1 million US casualties in an invasion of the Japanese homeland, or drop two atomic bombs in an effort to force surrender.

    But those weren’t his choices, at all. There was no need to do anything more than accept Japan’s surrender, which was offered weeks before the dropping of the bombs. It’s a myth that America would have lost tens of thousands of soldiers (or more), because that kind of mass invasion wasn’t at all necessary. Japan was finished, and they knew it. And Truman had to have known it, because Ike and many other generals told him they were finished — and, again, Japan already offered to surrender with, what turned out to be, the conditions of the eventual surrender.

    The firebombing of Tokyo alone had already killed more civilians than would be killed with the dropping of the bombs, and that was in the hundreds of thousands. Russia was ready to enter the war against Japan. It had no way out. There was no need for the bombs — or the firebombing.

    Excellent article about the above from Jacobin too:

    Seventy years ago, the United States committed one of the most horrific atrocities in military history. Why?

    Another great resource on this is Gar Alperovitz:

    The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It

    #44975
    bnw
    Blocked

    Of course the war was won but that isn’t the issue. Perhaps you and Katie Couric should do documentaries together? The issue was securing an UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER. That is the issue. It was necessary to prevent a great loss of US ad allied personnel in the invasion of Japan. The japanese leadership publicly stated the fight would be to the end and considering the casualties taken in invading Okinawa and Iwo Jima, Truman had every reason to believe them. The decision by japanese leadership to try to use Stalin to get better terms with the allies was fateful. Stalin doublecrossed them to grab more territory. That isn’t Truman’s fault. The japanese ignored the Potsdam Declaration which demanded unconditional surrender or Japan’s immediate destruction. Truman also gave fair warning of the second bomb drop.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #44977
    wv
    Participant
    #44982
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    I’m increasingly impressed with Jacobin. I’m rarely impressed with content these days, but overall, they continue to impress.

    I do think the article glosses over the very real logistical nightmare of a Russian invasion and that while the Japanese Prime Minister admitted that there was no viable plan to repel, that wasn’t the end.

    As we also know, there was a “to the last man, woman and child” strategy that the Generals wanted to deploy. So deeply were they committed to it that they tried to assassinate the Emperor in order to prevent him from surrendering.

    Thus, as in all things, it’s just a lot more complicated than saying the Americans were amoral warmongerers.

    The Russians, as we’ve seen with contested islands with Japan to their north, have not and will not give back territory. The only reason Berlin is united and Germany is united is that the Eastern Bloc of the Soviet Union disintegrated, NOT because Russia would ever cede any territory. That’s never going to happen, especially under Putin. Thus, if the Russians had invaded, Japan would have been a partially occupied country that the Russians would still occupy…unrepentantly.

    Which puts the dropping of the atomic weapons on morally dubious grounds. Very true. However, it is NOT historically accurate to say that “they were going to surrender, anyway.” That’s just not factually correct.

    Moreover, between repeated attempts on the Emperor’s life (at some point if we invaded, the General’s would have likely succeeded), and an imminent Russian invasion, the Japanese were caught in a vice.

    The Russians WERE coming and they wanted to invade in the worst way. The Japanese government DID want to surrender. That much is true. The Japanese military DID NOT want to surrender and the militaristic society that had been fostered such that it bred officers that allowed the Rape of Nanking were not only not going to surrender, but they were going to spend every last Japanese person in defense of the homeland if that’s what it took. Any conqueror would just take the land, but no Japanese would be left to be a conquered people.

    Are the estimates of Allied losses in an invasion of the Japanese homeland understated? It’s hard to say because the Japanese were fierce fighters the closer the Allies got to the Japanese homeland. Iwo Jima was a great example of this.

    Anyway, the Americans also realized that they needed to shock the Japanese so much that they needed to obliterate aspects of a culture.

    Yes, the firebombing of Tokyo killed more people than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. That’s lost on people who don’t take the time to learn. However, the very nature of HOW people died due to the atomic bombings was so horrific (as if dying in a fire wasn’t bad enough), that even the Generals realized that any resistance was futile.

    The Russians didn’t invade. The Japanese were allowed to save face (they literally had no other choice). The Americans didn’t have to invade.

    Only because it prevented what would have amounted to Japanese mass suicide and a Russian invasion that would still be causing geopolitical issues today do I say that it was the best of all the bad options.

    That didn’t make it a good, right or moral option and I agree with the author on a fair number of points.

    But to leave out pertinent history means not telling the story properly and that means not really telling the story at all in this case.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #44983
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Of course the war was won but that isn’t the issue. Perhaps you and Katie Couric should do documentaries together? The issue was securing an UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER. That is the issue. It was necessary to prevent a great loss of US ad allied personnel in the invasion of Japan. The japanese leadership publicly stated the fight would be to the end and considering the casualties taken in invading Okinawa and Iwo Jima, Truman had every reason to believe them. The decision by japanese leadership to try to use Stalin to get better terms with the allies was fateful. Stalin doublecrossed them to grab more territory. That isn’t Truman’s fault. The japanese ignored the Potsdam Declaration which demanded unconditional surrender or Japan’s immediate destruction. Truman also gave fair warning of the second bomb drop.

    Japan only had one “condition.” Allow the emperor to remain as symbol, as figure-head. That was the only thing they asked for. It was, for all intents and purposes, the offer of unconditional surrender, and it also was what we ended up agreeing to. But not until after 300,000 absolutely defenseless civilians were slaughtered. It was a war crime and “terrorism,” by definition.

    And, again, there was no need to drop the bombs to prevent losses in the invasion, because the invasion was completely unnecessary. Japan had already offered to surrender prior to that. From the article linked to above:

    Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, for his part, stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…” He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Even the famous “hawk” Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, went public the month after the bombing, telling the press that “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Billy_T.
    #44985
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Btw,

    Could you link to an article describing Japan’s supposed attempt to get Stalin to help them and his subsequent double-cross? Had never heard that one.

    #44988
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    One must remember that “Japanese leadership” isn’t a unitary term.

    There was the Japanese government that DID want to surrender and there was the Japanese military that did NOT. As things got bleak, the Japanese government’s control of the military became more and more tenuous which is why they tried to kill the Emperor. Without the Emperor, the Military could stage a coup and take control.

    Thus, the unconditional surrender HAD to include the support of the military, which it did NOT include prior to the first bombing.

    Was the eventual war over? Yes.

    Is it possible that the military could have been swayed equally with a purely military target? Possibly.

    Even at the time, the horror was undeniable and the rationales were difficult at best to reconcile.

    None of that changes the reality of the situation at the time.

    I’m not saying that the US had no choice, but to bomb Japan and specifically civilian targets. Not in the slightest am I saying that.

    But to paint “Japanese leadership” as monolithic and singular in mind and purpose at the end isn’t historically accurate. To not acknowledge that the Russians annexed Japanese islands (the Russians still are in possession of them, btw) in the north and desperately wanted to invade and were planning an invasion isn’t historically accurate. The Generals’ “to the last man, woman and child” strategy has been historical fact for quite a long time.

    It’s one thing to say in the aftermath, even immediate aftermath, when even the Japanese Generals’ resistance crumbled, that the bombs weren’t necessary when all one has to face is the horror, aftermath and havoc that atomic weaponry wreck. It’s quite another when prior to the bombs’ dropping and one is faced with Russian invasion in the north, split Japanese leadership (so any Treaty may be in vain if the military mutinies and fights to the last) and an American military and population that was terribly weary of all-out war that the choice is drop a few bombs OR… prepare for an invasion that may cost a LOT of American and Japanese lives that would dwarf Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

    Worse, such entrenched warfare on both sides would have made any attempt at passing a Marshall plan nearly impossible so late in the game.

    I dunno what alternatives Truman actually had at his disposal in the moment. However, it’s oversimplification to say that “the Japanese had already surrendered and the Americans just committed an unnecessary war crime”.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #44989
    zn
    Moderator

    Btw,

    Could you link to an article describing Japan’s supposed attempt to get Stalin to help them and his subsequent double-cross? Had never heard that one.

    I actually have heard of that.

    ..

    #44994
    bnw
    Blocked

    Of course the war was won but that isn’t the issue. Perhaps you and Katie Couric should do documentaries together? The issue was securing an UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER. That is the issue. It was necessary to prevent a great loss of US ad allied personnel in the invasion of Japan. The japanese leadership publicly stated the fight would be to the end and considering the casualties taken in invading Okinawa and Iwo Jima, Truman had every reason to believe them. The decision by japanese leadership to try to use Stalin to get better terms with the allies was fateful. Stalin doublecrossed them to grab more territory. That isn’t Truman’s fault. The japanese ignored the Potsdam Declaration which demanded unconditional surrender or Japan’s immediate destruction. Truman also gave fair warning of the second bomb drop.

    Japan only had one “condition.” Allow the emperor to remain as symbol, as figure-head. That was the only thing they asked for. It was, for all intents and purposes, the offer of unconditional surrender, and it also was what we ended up agreeing to. But not until after 300,000 absolutely defenseless civilians were slaughtered. It was a war crime and “terrorism,” by definition.

    And, again, there was no need to drop the bombs to prevent losses in the invasion, because the invasion was completely unnecessary. Japan had already offered to surrender prior to that. From the article linked to above:

    Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, for his part, stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…” He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Even the famous “hawk” Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, went public the month after the bombing, telling the press that “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”

    You refuse to acknowledge that the issue with dropping the bomb had to do with saving Allied servicemen lives. Thats it. Nothing more. Why you keep claiming that the bombs were unnecessary to win the war WHEN NO ONE HAS SAID THAT only you know. Did you read the first sentence in my prior post? Of course the war was already won. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #44995
    zn
    Moderator

    You refuse to acknowledge that the issue with dropping the bomb had to do with saving Allied servicemen lives. Thats it. Nothing more. Why you keep claiming that the bombs were unnecessary to win the war WHEN NO ONE HAS SAID THAT only you know. Did you read the first sentence in my prior post? Of course the war was already won. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

    Guys, tone it down just a mite, okay?

    Thanks.

    #44996
    bnw
    Blocked

    I’m not saying that the US had no choice, but to bomb Japan and specifically civilian targets. Not in the slightest am I saying that.

    Very few available military targets remained at the time. Remember that the atomic bombs were as much a weapon of fear as of destructive force. The bombing of a remote military base previously island hopped in the pacific wouldn’t do. Word had to spread among the japanese people of the horror and invincibility of this new weapon.

    From, http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp6.shtml

    “Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, “Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of ‘Banzai’ the troops leaving from the harbor.”

    “The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great war-time importance because of its many and varied industries, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The narrow long strip attacked was of particular importance because of its industries.”

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45000
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    As for the OP and the exploitation of Veteran’s Day…

    You wanna know the best way to honor Veterans?

    Fully fund the VA including the necessary Mental Health infrastructure, keep our military out of capriciously engaged non-declared wars around the globe and actually PAY active duty personnel a living wage while in the service AND PAY veterans the monetary benefits they need in addition to the other non-monetary benefits they need once they’ve “borne the battle”.

    It’s all too easy to spend a BILLION dollars on a plane that still doesn’t work and other weapon systems that were always going to be boondoggles, but when it comes to paying active duty personnel or vets in any way, it’s like pulling fucking teeth.

    22 Vets a day commit suicide. Twenty Two.

    That’s a damned scandal.

    Honor Veteran’s day? Make Veteran suicide and Veteran homelessness zero.

    I don’t mind the cookouts, but honestly, what percentage even gives a shit?

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #45001
    Billy_T
    Participant

    You refuse to acknowledge that the issue with dropping the bomb had to do with saving Allied servicemen lives. Thats it. Nothing more.

    I already dealt with that. Twice, at least. It didn’t have anything to do with “saving servicemen lives,” because no invasion of Japan was necessary. They were already defeated. Ike said this. A half dozen generals said this. No further action on our part was necessary.

    So, if no invasion was necessary — and it wasn’t — how can anyone claim that the bomb was essential to prevent loss of life due to a potential American invasion?

    #45003
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Billy, yes, there wasn’t consensus among the US Generals.

    However, the Japanese leadership wasn’t unified. Thus, the thesis of the article isn’t tenable, which is to state unequivocally that the entire Japanese heirarchy wanted to surrender and THEN the US dropped two bombs.

    That’s not what happened. The Japanese government wanted to find a way to surrender, but the military refused. The US was NOT going to sign a surrender and then fight guerillas. It demanded unconditional surrender which meant the military had to go along. Period. Prior to the dropping of the first bomb, they weren’t on board.

    The military was horrified with the results of the first bomb, but it never occurred to them that we’d ever do it again. And then we did. That second bomb showed the Japanese military that we not only would drop a second bomb, but would continue to drop them until surrender came. The Japanese military knew all was lost after Nagasaki and the unconditional surrender came.

    But to conflate “Japanese leadership” prior to the first bomb dropping is just not historically accurate.

    Yes, absolutely, prior and after, there were misgivings and outright doubts about the rationales and necessities involved in dropping the bombs.

    The American Generals weren’t the only voices involved. The Japanese Generals had something to say about it.

    Now, if the Japanese Generals hadn’t been belligerently attached to their “to the last man, woman and child” philosophy and mutinied, trying to kill the Emperor and stage multiple coups, then the whole thing wouldn’t be so complicated.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #45006
    bnw
    Blocked

    You refuse to acknowledge that the issue with dropping the bomb had to do with saving Allied servicemen lives. Thats it. Nothing more.

    I already dealt with that. Twice, at least. It didn’t have anything to do with “saving servicemen lives,” because no invasion of Japan was necessary. They were already defeated. Ike said this. A half dozen generals said this. No further action on our part was necessary.

    So, if no invasion was necessary — and it wasn’t — how can anyone claim that the bomb was essential to prevent loss of life due to a potential American invasion?

    No you didn’t deal with it. You ignored the facts. You deny the truth. Who said an allied invasion wasn’t necessary? WHO? Ike? So Ike knew the japanese military? Interesting since he was only dealing with the european theater from ’42 until long after the japanese surrender! Do you really believe Ike knew more than Truman who was advised of the situation at that time?

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45007
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Mac,

    No one’s conflating Japanese leadership in that article. But I think you’re going waaay too far the other way. The military obeyed what the state said it must do. It didn’t have its own say in the matter. It obeyed the dictates of the state. If the state offered up a full surrender — it did — the military had to go along with it. That was modern Japanese tradition, and it didn’t require that the military was all in with what the state wanted to do. It did it anyway.

    Also, I think you may be guilty of what you accuse the article of doing. It sounds like you’re treating the military itself as a monolith.

    A tragedy of errors: We in the West built up a myth of Japanese supermen, who would fight to the death and never let up. We did this to excuse war crimes, largely, and to psych our soldiers into being relentless as well. Some of the Japanese leadership also put forth their own version of this myth about themselves, from the other side of the fence, to stoke resolve. In reality, Japanese soldiers in WWII were no more likely to fight to the death or sacrifice themselves than any other military, including ours. They, too, were staffed by teachers, scientists, accountants, plumbers, carpenters and so on. They were not Samurai, as the West wanted to imagine. They, too, wanted to live in peace and see their children grow up and watch their daughters get married and so on.

    It’s time for America to come to terms with this, and it appears that it’s finally ready, judging from the polling.. Dropping the atomic bomb ranks as among the worst war crimes in world history. Easily. In no way did we have any legitimate rationale to do this. It was flat out terrorism against totally defenseless citizens. It just wasn’t necessary.

    #45008
    Billy_T
    Participant

    No you didn’t deal with it. You ignored the facts. You deny the truth. Who said an allied invasion wasn’t necessary? WHO? Ike? So Ike knew the japanese military? Interesting since he was only dealing with the european theater from ’42 until long after the japanese surrender! Do you really believe Ike knew more than Truman who was advised of the situation at that time?

    Yes, bnw. I did deal with it. And I didn’t ignore facts. I posted them, with sources, something you have yet to do — in any of our exchanges so far. And it’s pretty obvious that you never bother to read the articles I link to, or check out the books. If you had on this particular issue, for instance, you’d know that Ike was far from alone in saying the bomb wasn’t necessary at all.

    Face it, we’re not going to agree about this one. Best to move on, etc.

    #45009
    bnw
    Blocked

    Mac,

    No one’s conflating Japanese leadership in that article. But I think you’re going waaay too far the other way. The military obeyed what the state said it must do. It didn’t have its own say in the matter. It obeyed the dictates of the state. If the state offered up a full surrender — it did — the military had to go along with it. That was modern Japanese tradition, and it didn’t require that the military was all in with what the state wanted to do. It did it anyway.

    Also, I think you may be guilty of what you accuse the article of doing. It sounds like you’re treating the military itself as a monolith.

    A tragedy of errors: We in the West built up a myth of Japanese supermen, who would fight to the death and never let up. We did this to excuse war crimes, largely, and to psych our soldiers into being relentless as well. Some of the Japanese leadership also put forth their own version of this myth about themselves, from the other side of the fence, to stoke resolve. In reality, Japanese soldiers in WWII were no more likely to fight to the death or sacrifice themselves than any other military, including ours. They, too, were staffed by teachers, scientists, accountants, plumbers, carpenters and so on. They were not Samurai, as the West wanted to imagine. They, too, wanted to live in peace and see their children grow up and watch their daughters get married and so on.

    It’s time for America to come to terms with this, and it appears that it’s finally ready, judging from the polling.. Dropping the atomic bomb ranks as among the worst war crimes in world history. Easily. In no way did we have any legitimate rationale to do this. It was flat out terrorism against totally defenseless citizens. It just wasn’t necessary.

    Shameless revisionism and pure BS.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45011
    bnw
    Blocked

    As for the OP and the exploitation of Veteran’s Day…

    You wanna know the best way to honor Veterans?

    Fully fund the VA including the necessary Mental Health infrastructure, keep our military out of capriciously engaged non-declared wars around the globe and actually PAY active duty personnel a living wage while in the service AND PAY veterans the monetary benefits they need in addition to the other non-monetary benefits they need once they’ve “borne the battle”.

    It’s all too easy to spend a BILLION dollars on a plane that still doesn’t work and other weapon systems that were always going to be boondoggles, but when it comes to paying active duty personnel or vets in any way, it’s like pulling fucking teeth.

    22 Vets a day commit suicide. Twenty Two.

    That’s a damned scandal.

    Honor Veteran’s day? Make Veteran suicide and Veteran homelessness zero.

    I don’t mind the cookouts, but honestly, what percentage even gives a shit?

    Good post.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45012
    zn
    Moderator

    The military obeyed what the state said it must do

    I am not following the detailed ins and outs of this discussion, but in the 30s and 40s the military WAS the state in Japan…since in fact for much of that time, Tojo had control over the state and all official appointments and also over the infamous Japanese secret police, the Kempeitai.

    Leadership was divided over whether to surrender after Nagasaki and Hirohito broke the tie.

    Conveniently, the wiki entry on this is actually very good. Here is just a portion of it.

    Divisions within the Japanese leadership

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Divisions_within_the_Japanese_leadership

    For the most part, Suzuki’s military-dominated cabinet favored continuing the war. For the Japanese, surrender was unthinkable—Japan had never been invaded or lost a war in its history.[19] Only Mitsumasa Yonai, the Navy minister, was known to desire an early end to the war.[20] According to historian Richard B. Frank:

    Although Suzuki might indeed have seen peace as a distant goal, he had no design to achieve it within any immediate time span or on terms acceptable to the Allies. His own comments at the conference of senior statesmen gave no hint that he favored any early cessation of the war … Suzuki’s selections for the most critical cabinet posts were, with one exception, not advocates of peace either.[21]

    After the war, Suzuki and others from his government and their apologists claimed they were secretly working towards peace, and could not publicly advocate it. They cite the Japanese concept of haragei—”the art of hidden and invisible technique”—to justify the dissonance between their public actions and alleged behind-the-scenes work. However, many historians reject this. Robert J. C. Butow wrote:

    Because of its very ambiguity, the plea of haragei invites the suspicion that in questions of politics and diplomacy a conscious reliance upon this ‘art of bluff’ may have constituted a purposeful deception predicated upon a desire to play both ends against the middle. While this judgment does not accord with the much-lauded character of Admiral Suzuki, the fact remains that from the moment he became Premier until the day he resigned no one could ever be quite sure of what Suzuki would do or say next.[22]

    Japanese leaders had always envisioned a negotiated settlement to the war. Their prewar planning expected a rapid expansion and consolidation, an eventual conflict with the United States, and finally a settlement in which they would be able to retain at least some new territory they had conquered.[23] By 1945, Japan’s leaders were in agreement that the war was going badly, but they disagreed over the best means to negotiate its end. There were two camps: the so-called “peace” camp favored a diplomatic initiative to persuade Joseph Stalin, the leader of the Soviet Union, to mediate a settlement between the Allies and Japan; and the hardliners who favored fighting one last “decisive” battle that would inflict so many casualties on the Allies that they would be willing to offer more lenient terms.[1] Both approaches were based on Japan’s experience in the Russo–Japanese War, forty years earlier, which consisted of a series of costly but largely indecisive battles, followed by the decisive naval Battle of Tsushima.[24]

    In February 1945, Prince Fumimaro Konoe gave Emperor Hirohito a memorandum analyzing the situation, and told him that if the war continued, the imperial family might be in greater danger from an internal revolution than from defeat.[25] According to the diary of Grand Chamberlain Hisanori Fujita, the Emperor, looking for a decisive battle (tennōzan), replied that it was premature to seek peace “unless we make one more military gain”.[26] Also in February, Japan’s treaty division wrote about Allied policies towards Japan regarding “unconditional surrender, occupation, disarmament, elimination of militarism, democratic reforms, punishment of war criminals, and the status of the emperor.”[27] Allied-imposed disarmament, Allied punishment of Japanese war criminals, and especially occupation and removal of the Emperor, were not acceptable to the Japanese leadership.[28][29]

    On April 5, the Soviet Union gave the required 12 months’ notice that it would not renew the five-year Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact[30] (which had been signed in 1941 following the Nomonhan Incident).[31] Unknown to the Japanese, at the Tehran Conference in November–December 1943, it had been agreed that the Soviet Union would enter the war against Japan once Nazi Germany was defeated. At the Yalta conference in February 1945, the United States had made substantial concessions to the Soviets to secure a promise that they would declare war on Japan within three months of the surrender of Germany. Although the five-year Neutrality Pact did not expire until April 5, 1946, the announcement caused the Japanese great concern, because Japan had amassed its forces in the South to repel the inevitable US attack, thus leaving its Northern islands vulnerable to Soviet invasion.[32][33] Russian Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov, in Moscow, and Yakov Malik, Soviet ambassador in Tokyo, went to great lengths to assure the Japanese that “the period of the Pact’s validity has not ended”.[34]

    At a series of high-level meetings in May, the Big Six first seriously discussed ending the war—but none of them on terms that would have been acceptable to the Allies. Because anyone openly supporting Japanese surrender risked assassination by zealous army officers, the meetings were closed to anyone except the Big Six, the Emperor, and the Privy Seal—no second- or third-echelon officers could attend.[35] At these meetings, despite the dispatches from Japanese ambassador Satō in Moscow, only Foreign minister Tōgō realized that Roosevelt and Churchill might have already made concessions to Stalin to bring the Soviets into the war against Japan.[36] As a result of these meetings, Tōgō was authorized to approach the Soviet Union, seeking to maintain its neutrality, or (despite the very remote probability) to form an alliance.[37]

    In keeping with the custom of a new government declaring its purposes, following the May meetings the Army staff produced a document, “The Fundamental Policy to Be Followed Henceforth in the Conduct of the War,” which stated that the Japanese people would fight to extinction rather than surrender. This policy was adopted by the Big Six on June 6. (Tōgō opposed it, while the other five supported it.)[38] Documents submitted by Suzuki at the same meeting suggested that, in the diplomatic overtures to the USSR, Japan adopt the following approach:

    It should be clearly made known to Russia that she owes her victory over Germany to Japan, since we remained neutral, and that it would be to the advantage of the Soviets to help Japan maintain her international position, since they have the United States as an enemy in the future.[39]

    On June 9, the Emperor’s confidant Marquis Kōichi Kido wrote a “Draft Plan for Controlling the Crisis Situation,” warning that by the end of the year Japan’s ability to wage modern war would be extinguished and the government would be unable to contain civil unrest. “… We cannot be sure we will not share the fate of Germany and be reduced to adverse circumstances under which we will not attain even our supreme object of safeguarding the Imperial Household and preserving the national polity.”[40] Kido proposed that the Emperor take action, by offering to end the war on “very generous terms.” Kido proposed that Japan withdraw from the formerly European colonies it had occupied provided they were granted independence, that Japan disarm provided this not occur under Allied supervision, and that Japan for a time be “content with minimum defense.” Kido’s proposal did not contemplate Allied occupation of Japan, prosecution of war criminals or substantial change in Japan’s system of government. With the Emperor’s authorization, Kido approached several members of the Supreme Council, the “Big Six.” Tōgō was very supportive. Suzuki and Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai, the Navy minister, were both cautiously supportive; each wondered what the other thought. General Korechika Anami, the Army minister, was ambivalent, insisting that diplomacy must wait until “after the United States has sustained heavy losses” in Operation Ketsugō.[41]

    In June, the Emperor lost confidence in the chances of achieving a military victory. The Battle of Okinawa was lost, and he learned of the weakness of the Japanese army in China, of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria, of the navy, and of the army defending the Home Islands. The Emperor received a report by Prince Higashikuni from which he concluded that “it was not just the coast defense; the divisions reserved to engage in the decisive battle also did not have sufficient numbers of weapons.”[42] According to the Emperor:

    I was told that the iron from bomb fragments dropped by the enemy was being used to make shovels. This confirmed my opinion that we were no longer in a position to continue the war.[42]

    On June 22, the Emperor summoned the Big Six to a meeting. Unusually, he spoke first: “I desire that concrete plans to end the war, unhampered by existing policy, be speedily studied and that efforts made to implement them.”[43] It was agreed to solicit Soviet aid in ending the war. Other neutral nations, such as Switzerland, Sweden, and the Vatican City, were known to be willing to play a role in making peace, but they were so small they were believed unable to do more than deliver the Allies’ terms of surrender and Japan’s acceptance or rejection. The Japanese hoped that the Soviet Union could be persuaded to act as an agent for Japan in negotiations with America and Britain.[44]

    That was May.

    Here is August, after Nagasaki:

    I

    mperial intervention, Allied response, and Japanese reply

    War Minister Korechika Anami
    The full cabinet met on 14:30 on August 9, and spent most of the day debating surrender. As the Big Six had done, the cabinet split, with neither Tōgō’s position nor Anami’s attracting a majority.[89] Anami told the other cabinet ministers that, under torture, a captured American P-51 fighter pilot had told his interrogators that the United States possessed 100 atom bombs and that Tokyo and Kyoto would be bombed “in the next few days”. The pilot, Marcus McDilda, was lying. He knew nothing of the Manhattan Project and simply told his interrogators what he thought they wanted to hear to end the torture. The lie, which caused him to be classified as a high-priority prisoner, probably saved him from beheading.[90] In reality, the United States would have had the third bomb ready for use around August 19, and a fourth in September 1945.[91] The third bomb probably would have been used against Tokyo.[92]

    The cabinet meeting adjourned at 17:30 with no consensus. A second meeting lasting from 18:00 to 22:00 also ended with no consensus. Following this second meeting, Suzuki and Tōgō met the Emperor, and Suzuki proposed an impromptu Imperial conference, which started just before midnight on the night of August 9–10.[93] Suzuki presented Anami’s four-condition proposal as the consensus position of the Supreme Council. The other members of the Supreme Council spoke, as did Kiichirō Hiranuma, the president of the Privy Council, who outlined Japan’s inability to defend itself and also described the country’s domestic problems, such as the shortage of food. The cabinet debated, but again no consensus emerged. At around 02:00 (August 10), Suzuki finally addressed Emperor Hirohito, asking him to decide between the two positions. The participants later recollected that the Emperor stated:

    I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home and abroad and have concluded that continuing the war can only mean destruction for the nation and prolongation of bloodshed and cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer. …

    I was told by those advocating a continuation of hostilities that by June new divisions would be in place in fortified positions [at Kujūkuri Beach, east of Tokyo] ready for the invader when he sought to land. It is now August and the fortifications still have not been completed. …

    There are those who say the key to national survival lies in a decisive battle in the homeland. The experiences of the past, however, show that there has always been a discrepancy between plans and performance. I do not believe that the discrepancy in the case of Kujūkuri can be rectified. Since this is also the shape of things, how can we repel the invaders? [He then made some specific reference to the increased destructiveness of the atomic bomb]

    It goes without saying that it is unbearable for me to see the brave and loyal fighting men of Japan disarmed. It is equally unbearable that others who have rendered me devoted service should now be punished as instigators of the war. Nevertheless, the time has come to bear the unbearable. …

    I swallow my tears and give my sanction to the proposal to accept the Allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the Foreign Minister.[94]

    According to General Sumihisa Ikeda and Admiral Zenshirō Hoshina, Privy Council President Kiichirō Hiranuma then turned to the Emperor and asked him: “Your majesty, you also bear responsibility (sekinin) for this defeat. What apology are you going to make to the heroic spirits of the imperial founder of your house and your other imperial ancestors?”[95]

    Wikisource has original text related to this article:
    Japan’s Surrender Communiqués
    Once the Emperor had left, Suzuki pushed the cabinet to accept the Emperor’s will, which it did. Early that morning (August 10), the Foreign Ministry sent telegrams to the Allies (by way of the Swiss Federal Political Department and Max Grässli in particular) announcing that Japan would accept the Potsdam Declaration, but would not accept any peace conditions that would “prejudice the prerogatives” of the Emperor. That effectively meant no change in Japan’s form of government—that the Emperor of Japan would remain a position of real power.[96]

    August 12
    The Allied response was written by James F. Byrnes and approved by the British, Chinese, and Soviet governments, although the Soviets agreed only reluctantly. The Allies sent their response (via the Swiss Political Affairs Department) to Japan’s qualified acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration on August 12. On the status of the Emperor it said:

    From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms. …The ultimate form of government of Japan shall, in accordance with the Potsdam Declaration, be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people.[97]

    President Truman ordered military operations (including the B-29 bombings) to continue until official word of Japanese surrender was received. However, news correspondents incorrectly interpreted a comment by Carl Andrew Spaatz that the B-29s were not flying on August 11 (because of bad weather) as a statement that a ceasefire was in effect. To avoid giving the Japanese the impression that the Allies had abandoned peace efforts and resumed bombing, Truman then ordered a halt to further bombings.[98][99]

    The Japanese cabinet considered the Allied response, and Suzuki argued that they must reject it and insist on an explicit guarantee for the imperial system. Anami returned to his position that there be no occupation of Japan. Afterward, Tōgō told Suzuki that there was no hope of getting better terms, and Kido conveyed the Emperor’s will that Japan surrender. In a meeting with the Emperor, Yonai spoke of his concerns about growing civil unrest:

    I think the term is inappropriate, but the atomic bombs and the Soviet entry into the war are, in a sense, divine gifts. This way we don’t have to say that we have quit the war because of domestic circumstances.[100]

    That day, Hirohito informed the imperial family of his decision to surrender. One of his uncles, Prince Asaka, then asked whether the war would be continued if the kokutai (imperial sovereignty) could not be preserved. The Emperor simply replied “of course.”[101][102]

    August 13–14
    The Big Six and the cabinet spent August 13 debating their reply to the Allied response, but remained deadlocked. Meanwhile, the Allies grew doubtful, waiting for the Japanese to respond. The Japanese had been instructed that they could transmit an unqualified acceptance in the clear, but in fact they sent out coded messages on matters unrelated to the surrender parlay. The Allies took this coded response as non-acceptance of the terms.[103]

    Via Ultra intercepts, the Allies also detected increased diplomatic and military traffic, which was taken as evidence that the Japanese were preparing an “all-out banzai attack.”[103] President Truman ordered a resumption of attacks against Japan at maximum intensity “so as to impress Japanese officials that we mean business and are serious in getting them to accept our peace proposals without delay.”[103] The United States Third Fleet began shelling the Japanese coast. In the largest bombing raid of the Pacific War, more than 400 B-29s attacked Japan during daylight on August 14, and more than 300 that night.[104] A total of 1,014 aircraft were used with no losses.[105]

    In the longest bombing mission of the war,[106] B-29s from the 315 Bombardment Wing flew 6,100 km (3,800 mi) to destroy the Nippon Oil Company refinery at Tsuchizaki on the northern tip of Honshū. This was the last operational refinery in the Japan Home Islands and it produced 67% of their oil.[107] After the war, the bombing raids were justified as already in progress when word of the Japanese surrender was received, but this is only partially true.[108]

    A leaflet dropped on Japan after the bombing of Hiroshima. The leaflet says, in part: The Japanese people are facing an extremely important autumn. Your military leaders were presented with thirteen articles for surrender by our three-country alliance to put an end to this unprofitable war. This proposal was ignored by your army leaders… [T]he United States has developed an atom bomb, which had not been done by any nation before. It has been determined to employ this frightening bomb. One atom bomb has the destructive power of 2000 B-29s.
    At the suggestion of American psychological operations experts, B-29s spent August 13 dropping leaflets over Japan, describing the Japanese offer of surrender and the Allied response.[103] The leaflets had a profound effect on the Japanese decision-making process. As August 14 dawned, Suzuki, Kido, and the Emperor realized the day would end with either an acceptance of the American terms or a military coup.[109]

    The Emperor met with the most senior Army and Navy officers. While several spoke in favor of fighting on, Field Marshal Shunroku Hata did not. As commander of the Second General Army, the headquarters of which had been in Hiroshima, Hata commanded all the troops defending southern Japan—the troops preparing to fight the “decisive battle”. Hata said he had no confidence in defeating the invasion and did not dispute the Emperor’s decision. The Emperor asked his military leaders to cooperate with him in ending the war.[109]

    At a conference with the cabinet and other councilors, Anami, Toyoda, and Umezu again made their case for continuing to fight, after which the Emperor said:

    I have listened carefully to each of the arguments presented in opposition to the view that Japan should accept the Allied reply as it stands and without further clarification or modification, but my own thoughts have not undergone any change. … In order that the people may know my decision, I request you to prepare at once an imperial rescript so that I may broadcast to the nation. Finally, I call upon each and every one of you to exert himself to the utmost so that we may meet the trying days which lie ahead.[110]

    The cabinet immediately convened and unanimously ratified the Emperor’s wishes. They also decided to destroy vast amounts of material pertaining to war crimes and the war responsibility of the nation’s highest leaders.[111] Immediately after the conference, the Foreign ministry transmitted orders to its embassies in Switzerland and Sweden to accept the Allied terms of surrender. These orders were picked up and received in Washington at 02:49, August 14.[110]

    Difficulty with senior commanders on the distant war fronts was anticipated. Three princes of the Imperial Family who held military commissions were dispatched on August 14 to deliver the news personally. Prince Tsuneyoshi Takeda went to Korea and Manchuria, Prince Yasuhiko Asaka to the China Expeditionary Army and China Fleet, and Prince Kan’in Haruhito to Shanghai, South China, Indo-China and Singapore.[112][113]

    The text of the Imperial Rescript on surrender was finalized by 19:00 August 14, transcribed by the official court calligrapher, and brought to the cabinet for their signatures. Around 23:00, the Emperor, with help from an NHK recording crew, made a gramophone record of himself reading it.[114] The record was given to court chamberlain Yoshihiro Tokugawa, who hid it in a locker in the empress’s secretary’s office.[115]

    Attempted military coup d’état (August 12–15)
    Main article: Kyūjō incident

    Kenji Hatanaka, leader of the coup d’état
    Late on the night of August 12, 1945, Major Kenji Hatanaka, along with Lieutenant Colonels Masataka Ida, Masahiko Takeshita (Anami’s brother-in-law), and Inaba Masao, and Colonel Okitsugu Arao, the Chief of the Military Affairs Section, spoke to War Minister Korechika Anami (the army minister and “most powerful figure in Japan besides the Emperor himself”),[116] and asked him to do whatever he could to prevent acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration. General Anami refused to say whether he would help the young officers in treason.[117] As much as they needed his support, Hatanaka and the other rebels decided they had no choice but to continue planning and to attempt a coup d’état on their own. Hatanaka spent much of August 13 and the morning of August 14 gathering allies, seeking support from the higher-ups in the Ministry, and perfecting his plot.[118]

    Shortly after the conference on the night of August 13–14 at which the surrender finally was decided, a group of senior army officers including Anami gathered in a nearby room. All those present were concerned about the possibility of a coup d’état to prevent the surrender—some of those present may have even been considering launching one. After a silence, General Torashirō Kawabe proposed that all senior officers present sign an agreement to carry out the Emperor’s order of surrender—”The Army will act in accordance with the Imperial Decision to the last.” It was signed by all the high-ranking officers present, including Anami, Hajime Sugiyama, Yoshijirō Umezu, Kenji Doihara, Torashirō Kawabe, Masakazu Kawabe, and Tadaichi Wakamatsu. “This written accord by the most senior officers in the Army … acted as a formidable firebreak against any attempt to incite a coup d’état in Tokyo.”[119]

    The coup collapsed after Shizuichi Tanaka convinced the rebellious officers to go home. Tanaka committed suicide nine days later.
    Around 21:30 on August 14, Hatanaka’s rebels set their plan into motion. The Second Regiment of the First Imperial Guards had entered the palace grounds, doubling the strength of the battalion already stationed there, presumably to provide extra protection against Hatanaka’s rebellion. But Hatanaka, along with Lt. Col. Jirō Shiizaki, convinced the commander of the 2nd Regiment of the First Imperial Guards, Colonel Toyojirō Haga, of their cause, by telling him (falsely) that Generals Anami and Umezu, and the commanders of the Eastern District Army and Imperial Guards Divisions were all in on the plan. Hatanaka also went to the office of Shizuichi Tanaka, commander of the Eastern region of the army, to try to persuade him to join the coup. Tanaka refused, and ordered Hatanaka to go home. Hatanaka ignored the order.[115]

    Originally, Hatanaka hoped that simply occupying the palace and showing the beginnings of a rebellion would inspire the rest of the Army to rise up against the move to surrender. This notion guided him through much of the last days and hours and gave him the blind optimism to move ahead with the plan, despite having little support from his superiors. Having set all the pieces into position, Hatanaka and his co-conspirators decided that the Guard would take over the palace at 02:00. The hours until then were spent in continued attempts to convince their superiors in the Army to join the coup. At about the same time, General Anami committed seppuku, leaving a message that, “I—with my death—humbly apologize to the Emperor for the great crime.”[120] Whether the crime involved losing the war, or the coup, remains unclear.[121]

    Wikisource has original text related to this article:
    Imperial Guards Division Strategic Order No. 584
    At some time after 01:00, Hatanaka and his men surrounded the palace. Hatanaka, Shiizaki and Captain Shigetarō Uehara (of the Air Force Academy) went to the office of Lt. General Takeshi Mori to ask him to join the coup. Mori was in a meeting with his brother-in-law, Michinori Shiraishi. The cooperation of Mori, as commander of the 1st Imperial Guards Division, was crucial. When Mori refused to side with Hatanaka, Hatanaka killed him, fearing Mori would order the Guards to stop the rebellion.[122] Uehara killed Shiraishi. These were the only two murders of the night. Hatanaka then used General Mori’s official stamp to authorize Imperial Guards Division Strategic Order No. 584, a false set of orders created by his co-conspirators, which would greatly increase the strength of the forces occupying the Imperial Palace and Imperial Household Ministry, and “protecting” the Emperor.[123]

    The palace police were disarmed and all the entrances blocked.[114] Over the course of the night, Hatanaka’s rebels captured and detained eighteen people, including Ministry staff and NHK workers sent to record the surrender speech.[114]

    The rebels, led by Hatanaka, spent the next several hours fruitlessly searching for Imperial House Minister Sōtarō Ishiwatari, Lord of the Privy Seal Kōichi Kido, and the recordings of the surrender speech. The two men were hiding in the “bank vault”, a large chamber underneath the Imperial Palace.[124][125] The search was made more difficult by a blackout in response to Allied bombings, and by the archaic organization and layout of the Imperial House Ministry. Many of the names of the rooms were unrecognizable to the rebels. The rebels did find the chamberlain Tokugawa. Although Hatanaka threatened to disembowel him with a samurai sword, Tokugawa lied and told them he did not know where the recordings or men were.[126][127] During their search, the rebels cut nearly all of the telephone wires, severing communications between the palace grounds and the outside world.[citation needed]

    At about the same time, another group of Hatanaka’s rebels led by Captain Takeo Sasaki went to Prime Minister Suzuki’s office, intent on killing him. When they found it empty, they machine-gunned the office and set the building on fire, then left for his home. Hisatsune Sakomizu had warned Suzuki, and he escaped minutes before the would-be assassins arrived. After setting fire to Suzuki’s home, they went to the estate of Kiichirō Hiranuma to assassinate him. Hiranuma escaped through a side gate and the rebels burned his house as well. Suzuki spent the rest of August under police protection, spending each night in a different bed.[126][128]

    Around 03:00, Hatanaka was informed by Lieutenant Colonel Masataka Ida that the Eastern District Army was on its way to the palace to stop him, and that he should give up.[129][130] Finally, seeing his plan collapsing around him, Hatanaka pleaded with Tatsuhiko Takashima, Chief of Staff of the Eastern District Army, to be given at least ten minutes on the air on NHK radio, to explain to the people of Japan what he was trying to accomplish and why. He was refused.[131] Colonel Haga, commander of the 2nd Regiment of the First Imperial Guards, discovered that the Army did not support this rebellion, and he ordered Hatanaka to leave the palace grounds.

    Just before 05:00, as his rebels continued their search, Major Hatanaka went to the NHK studios, and, brandishing a pistol, tried desperately to get some airtime to explain his actions.[132] A little over an hour later, after receiving a telephone call from the Eastern District Army, Hatanaka finally gave up. He gathered his officers and walked out of the NHK studio.[133]

    At dawn, Tanaka learned that the palace had been invaded. He went there and confronted the rebellious officers, berating them for acting contrary to the spirit of the Japanese army. He convinced them to return to their barracks.[126][134] By 08:00, the rebellion was entirely dismantled, having succeeded in holding the palace grounds for much of the night but failing to find the recordings.[135]

    Hatanaka, on a motorcycle, and Shiizaki, on horseback, rode through the streets, tossing leaflets that explained their motives and their actions. Within an hour before the Emperor’s broadcast, sometime around 11:00, August 15, Hatanaka placed his pistol to his forehead, and shot himself. Shiizaki stabbed himself with a dagger, and then shot himself. In Hatanaka’s pocket was found his death poem: “I have nothing to regret now that the dark clouds have disappeared from the reign of the Emperor.”[128]

    #45041
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Some more articles showing why the bombs were not necessary.
    From Wikipedia: Opposition to the Bomb

    They include a host of very high-ranking military personnel who felt the same, at the time, along with a commission from 1946 which also determined the bombs weren’t needed.

    Howard Zinn later came to this conclusion. He was a bomber in WWII himself.

    The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.
    — Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, [69]

    The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons … The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
    — Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950, [79]

    The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.
    — Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945, [80]

    The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment … It was a mistake to ever drop it … [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it …
    — Fleet Admiral William Halsey, Jr., 1964, [80]

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Billy_T.
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