Anybody want to defend this defense?

Recent Forum Topics Forums The Rams Huddle Anybody want to defend this defense?

  • This topic has 12 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by Dak.
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  • #8191
    rfl
    Participant

    Anyone? Buehler?

    I have no words for the disgusting, gutless, ill disciplined, rabble that blew a 21 point lead and a 30+ point performance by the offense.

    I am, however, wondering what people will muster in defense of this bunch.

    Call them what they are, guys. Utter losers.

    And, yes, a lot of it is coaching.

    By virtue of the absurd ...

    #8193
    zn
    Moderator

    Well yeah I think it can be defended, under the idea that they made bad mistakes last year against Dallas and improved, and will likely do the same this year. I saw breakdowns; I don’t think I saw the start to finish, every down catastrophe you did.

    But…you’re venting, right? So it’s not really a discussion. That’s not supposed to sound like anything. I think it was a very demoralizing loss. That doesn’t always lead to discussion. Which is fine. All part of the process.

    #8195
    Eternal Ramnation
    Participant

    14 of the 21 points were a direct result of turnovers ,Jenks pick 6 and Ogletree’s strip of Murray

    #8196
    PA Ram
    Participant

    Rfl, I hear you. I really do.

    Yesterday they absolutely blew it.

    The defense infuriates me right now because, I just don’t get it. I can’t wrap my mind around it. I want answers. I want to know what the problem is. they play so well for awhile–make a big play here and there but in the end they implode.

    Murray was “contained” by only rushing for 100 yards. Bryant has his moments as well and Romo looked like a a guy with an invisible shield around him who could not be touched, a little move here,there and he has wide open space.

    To say that this defense has been a disappointment is an understatement. The one thing they did extremely well–getting to the passer–is not even a strength now. I don’t know what the explanation is to it all. There are theories: Greg Williams, discipline breakdowns, loss of Chris Long, whatever.

    But I don’t know.

    Yes–Quinn gets held on every play but SOMEONE should get through. How does Romo end up with a nice pocket space just by taking a step forward?

    And I’ve been all over the linebackers–it has been one of my favorite scapegoats–but I thought they played pretty well yesterday–overall.

    The one thing I don’t believe is that it’s a lack of talent. There is plenty of talent on this defense.

    I guess that I have to look at the coaching–some flaw there. I just can’t understand what they’re doing, why this is happening but it is frustrating and maddening to watch.

    I don’t want to hear any excuses from Fisher. I just want results.

    There are no excuses.

    So what do the stats say?

    The Rams, right now are the 13th ranked total defense. That surprised me. 13th? I would have thought 25th, or 28th or so.

    The Rams are the 5th ranked passing defense. Even without the sacks.

    They are the 28th ranked rushing defense–makes sense. They just do not contain the run.

    They give up the third most points in the league.

    They surrender a lot of points.

    So while I’d love to see sacks–this team isn’t losing games right now because of the pass defense.

    They just can’t contain the run. In three games they’ve had three 100 yard rushers.

    If you’re playing fantasy football make sure you start the running back playing the Rams.

    So what does it all mean?

    They still have to figure out first and foremost this run problem. They can’t figure it out for a quarter, or a half. It has to be for the game.

    Maybe they’ll figure it out during the bye week.

    It’s already a long year.

    • This reply was modified 10 years ago by PA Ram.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #8201
    zn
    Moderator

    Well, let’s look at this a bit at a time. You say rushing the passer is no longer a strength. I don’t look at it that way. I see teams negating the pass rush at the gameplan level. And even that’s not what hurt them, because if another team is planning that heavily around the pass rush, then, that means they are cutting back on something else. (Plus Robert Quinn has never gotten a sack against Tyron Smith. There’s a reason Smith is so highly regarded.)

    So if you look at how the D played, there were several breakdowns, some not caused by the Rams. Like McCleod letting Bryant run right by him. And some very untimely penalties that had HUGE effects. Some of those were clearly bogus.

    And people complain about Murray. Tenn and SF both had good defenses last year, and Murray averaged 5+ something a carry against them. In fact it’s 51 attempts, 285 yards, which is 5.6 yards a carry…Rams allowed 100 on 24 carries which is 4.17.

    So you have Murray running behind one of the best offensive lines in the game, and Rams actually did better against him than 2 defenses that were ranked higher last year than the Rams were.

    Dallas is THAT tough on offense this year, but it tooks some Rams breakdowns as officiating issues for Dallas to beat them.

    These are just wandering thoughts. I have no Final Conclusion. As a rule, people tell you, over the years, I don’t take bad losses as badly as many others do. (And it’s not because I think I am “more rational,” or anything like that. It’s just that my emotional make-up is slightly different over this kind of thing.) So I like to chip away at the first impression picture, and see what remains. It’s supposed to help make for good conversation. x The thing I like about good conversation is, you can never predict where it will go.

    #8209
    rfl
    Participant

    Well yeah I think it can be defended, under the idea that they made bad mistakes last year against Dallas and improved, and will likely do the same this year. I saw breakdowns; I don’t think I saw the start to finish, every down catastrophe you did.

    But…you’re venting, right? So it’s not really a discussion. That’s not supposed to sound like anything. I think it was a very demoralizing loss. That doesn’t always lead to discussion. Which is fine. All part of the process.

    Venting? I guess so.

    But let’s not blame the victim … the disgusted fan.

    Nor did I say it was a “start to finish, every down catastrophe.” That’s not the only way to badly screw up a game.

    What I saw was worse. This isn’t a talentless bunch of sad sacks.

    It is a team with a lot of talent vacillating wildly between results. “Breakdowns”? Yeah. I guess. Heartless, gutless, unforgivable ones. And here’s the constant:

    They cannot get off the field in important drives. Case in point.

    They had DAL 3 and 14 on their own 10 or so. I think it was when they had the 1 point lead.

    They drop TWO interior DL into the zones and rush 2. Not a zone blitz ’cause no one else came. Two freaking guys rushing Romo.

    He steps up, finds a complete vacuum, and trots for the 1 down. DAL goes on to score.

    A breakdown, eh? You can call it that if you want. After almost 3 months in training, 4 PS and 3 regular season games. I guess they just weren’t sure what they were doing. They need more time, right?

    You know what, man? Quality football is about being consistent. You can’t look at 1.5 quarters of containing the run, then at 2 plays which changed the game–easy 39 yards rushing–and say, “Well we contained the RB until those 2 plays …”

    They count. They bloody well count. In the NFL, 6-7 big plays on offense add up to lots of points. A good defense does not simply give it up on half a dozen plays and say, “Well, we were fine apart from those breakdowns.” That’s not how the league works. You can’t do splits with stats and say, “Well, toss out those 7 plays and we were good.” That is not the way football teams learn to win. That thinking is for losers.

    This defense has not yet through 7 games shown the ability to get key stops in games. It hasn’t. It stinks as a defense. It is performing at a level far below that of the offense with its 3rd strong QB and patchwork OL. It is losing games virtually on its own, and would have lost last week had Lovie not blown a time out.

    Am I venting? Sure.

    And part of my frustration is with the smokescreen pumped out by the HC and organization and supported by too many fans that this is a good defense that is having understandable developmental issues.

    It stinks. Can we at least admit that? Can we simply say that the defensive performance yesterday, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, was unacceptable?

    By virtue of the absurd ...

    #8212
    PA Ram
    Participant

    I’m not just looking at the Dallas game, though–I’m talking about the first three games.

    There has been no real pressure on Romo, McCown or Cassell. For all the exotic blitzes that Williams wants to pull out of his toolbox, the end result has been less than thrilling. In fact they did get some outside pressure on Romo but then he took one or two steps forward to a wide open space. How does that happen? It happened many times. If I’m Greg Williams I make sure it stops happening. I make sure that when he steps up he meets somebody. I have no idea what he needs to do but he should know.

    Still, despite that AND game planning against them, the Rams are not getting beat because of the pass.

    They have an inability to contain the run. It’s killing them.

    They shut down Murray and shut down Murray and suddenly….boooom. He’s gone. 44 yards.

    They hold Peterson to 75 yards and Patterson runs one for 67 yards.

    Rainey had a 31 yard run for Tampa.

    Teams don’t need to hit the big pass play against them–they can just be patient–feed the running back and sooner or later–booom. They’ll get the big play.

    Yes–I’d love to see sacks and all that good stuff–but that isn’t what’s killing this team right now. The problem is consistent and it’s the run defense. Dallas started their comeback because Garrett adjusted to more inside runs and Murray got going.

    Williams is not adjusting very well.

    I believe this team is better than 1-2. They aren’t playing like it.

    Whether it’s poor play one week(poor tackling) poor scheme another–whatever–the coaches have to sort this out and correct it–but it’s 3 games in. If they do improve–if they do figure it out, it’s still a coaching issue that they weren’t prepared from the start.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #8213
    zn
    Moderator

    zn wrote:
    Well yeah I think it can be defended, under the idea that they made bad mistakes last year against Dallas and improved, and will likely do the same this year. I saw breakdowns; I don’t think I saw the start to finish, every down catastrophe you did.

    But…you’re venting, right? So it’s not really a discussion. That’s not supposed to sound like anything. I think it was a very demoralizing loss. That doesn’t always lead to discussion. Which is fine. All part of the process.

    Venting? I guess so.

    But let’s not blame the victim … the disgusted fan.

    Nor did I say it was a “start to finish, every down catastrophe.” That’s not the only way to badly screw up a game.

    What I saw was worse. This isn’t a talentless bunch of sad sacks.

    It is a team with a lot of talent vacillating wildly between results. “Breakdowns”? Yeah. I guess. Heartless, gutless, unforgivable ones. And here’s the constant:

    They cannot get off the field in important drives. Case in point.

    They had DAL 3 and 14 on their own 10 or so. I think it was when they had the 1 point lead.

    They drop TWO interior DL into the zones and rush 2. Not a zone blitz ’cause no one else came. Two freaking guys rushing Romo.

    He steps up, finds a complete vacuum, and trots for the 1 down. DAL goes on to score.

    A breakdown, eh? You can call it that if you want. After almost 3 months in training, 4 PS and 3 regular season games. I guess they just weren’t sure what they were doing. They need more time, right?

    You know what, man? Quality football is about being consistent. You can’t look at 1.5 quarters of containing the run, then at 2 plays which changed the game–easy 39 yards rushing–and say, “Well we contained the RB until those 2 plays …”

    They count. They bloody well count. In the NFL, 6-7 big plays on offense add up to lots of points. A good defense does not simply give it up on half a dozen plays and say, “Well, we were fine apart from those breakdowns.” That’s not how the league works. You can’t do splits with stats and say, “Well, toss out those 7 plays and we were good.” That is not the way football teams learn to win. That thinking is for losers.

    This defense has not yet through 7 games shown the ability to get key stops in games. It hasn’t. It stinks as a defense. It is performing at a level far below that of the offense with its 3rd strong QB and patchwork OL. It is losing games virtually on its own, and would have lost last week had Lovie not blown a time out.

    Am I venting? Sure.

    And part of my frustration is with the smokescreen pumped out by the HC and organization and supported by too many fans that this is a good defense that is having understandable developmental issues.

    It stinks. Can we at least admit that? Can we simply say that the defensive performance yesterday, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, was unacceptable?

    Except I’m not blaming you. x You weren’t being “accused” of anything.

    And, you know, seeing things differently…even slightly differently…isn’t a matter of someone “not admitting” something. It’s just a difference, right or wrong. If people didn’t see things like this differently, then we would only need to nominate a poster of the week to type up the consensus view while the rest of us all agreed.

    #8214
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    what was the nines d like before they became great? seahawks? or the ravens? bucs?

    just curious if anyone knows if they had any major bumps or bruises on the way to becoming a great defense.

    cuz this sure is discouraging.

    one thing this defense needs is consistency at defensive coordinator. they changed that position every year i believe.

    #8270
    zn
    Moderator

    I’m not just looking at the Dallas game, though–I’m talking about the first three games.

    There has been no real pressure on Romo, McCown or Cassell. For all the exotic blitzes that Williams wants to pull out of his toolbox, the end result has been less than thrilling. In fact they did get some outside pressure on Romo but then he took one or two steps forward to a wide open space. How does that happen? It happened many times. If I’m Greg Williams I make sure it stops happening. I make sure that when he steps up he meets somebody. I have no idea what he needs to do but he should know.

    Still, despite that AND game planning against them, the Rams are not getting beat because of the pass.

    They have an inability to contain the run. It’s killing them.

    They shut down Murray and shut down Murray and suddenly….boooom. He’s gone. 44 yards.

    They hold Peterson to 75 yards and Patterson runs one for 67 yards.

    Rainey had a 31 yard run for Tampa.

    Teams don’t need to hit the big pass play against them–they can just be patient–feed the running back and sooner or later–booom. They’ll get the big play.

    Yes–I’d love to see sacks and all that good stuff–but that isn’t what’s killing this team right now. The problem is consistent and it’s the run defense. Dallas started their comeback because Garrett adjusted to more inside runs and Murray got going.

    Williams is not adjusting very well.

    I believe this team is better than 1-2. They aren’t playing like it.

    Whether it’s poor play one week(poor tackling) poor scheme another–whatever–the coaches have to sort this out and correct it–but it’s 3 games in. If they do improve–if they do figure it out, it’s still a coaching issue that they weren’t prepared from the start.

    Well, if you remember from the chat rooms, I was saying the blitzes weren’t working. So I agree with that.

    In terms of the pass rush, I suspect it’s 3 things. First, teams have had all summer to try and negate it. People say, well, they should respond with something, but it is never that simple. Second, the team may have let the “best front 7 in the game” routine–and that was coming from everyone and everywhere–go to their heads. Third, they’re still learning a new scheme, and one which unfortunately includes a lot of improvisation…maybe it shouldn’t. Maybe these guys don’t have the kind of mindset to handle that.

    Another factor to add is that Quinn has never gotten sacks against either Tyron Smith or Matt Kalil. That’s a total of 4 games from 2012 on. (Smith was at ROT in 2011 when the Rams played them.)

    #8274
    Hram
    Participant

    To answer RFLs original question,

    Ummmmmm

    No

    #8305
    c1ram
    Participant

    Anyone? Buehler?

    I have no words for the disgusting, gutless, ill disciplined, rabble that blew a 21 point lead and a 30+ point performance by the offense.

    I am, however, wondering what people will muster in defense of this bunch.

    Call them what they are, guys. Utter losers.

    And, yes, a lot of it is coaching.

    Disappointed so far, will but not much into “disgusting”, “gutless” or “utter losers”. I rarely agree with that at this level and I don’t see it with this team. I don’t consider most play at the NFL level to be either horrible or wonderful. It’s often a matter of a few plays over time on a consistent basis based on talent, experience, coaching and playing intelligence.

    With the Rams I’m getting concerned about playing intelligence with all the penalties (albeit some horrible calls along with it). I also don’t believe they have an elite coaching staff – it’s more of a throwback coaching staff, imo. But I see no Chip Kelly on the immediate horizon and this is still much better than elevating an OC or DC so I’m okay with that.

    Pass rushing is easily biggest disappointment. The run D is looking better (as I expected) but still getting gashed a couple of big plays.

    And I think they will continue to get better. I’m a glass full guy by nature so whatever.

    #8325
    Dak
    Participant

    I expected breakdowns in the secondary this year, and that’s what’s happening. They’re still young back there, and frankly not that talented. They’re a couple upgrades in the secondary from becoming an elite defense against the pass.

    I’m no X’s and O’s guy, but I could see that the Rams didn’t fill in holes on cutback runs. Some guys seem to get out of position every play or so, allowing a big run. I do think the Rams will improve their defense. But, I share RFL’s frustration about why this defense is so poor at times early in the season. I’m seeing a trend with Fisher’s Rams.

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