from around the net… on Goff/Wentz (a must read thread tho long)

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from a much longer post, here: http://www.ramsrule.com/herd/read.php?5,651218,651218#msg-651218

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XXXIVwin

I know I’m late to the Goff/Wentz debate-fest, but I gotta get this off my chest.

To me, Goff looks special. Wentz looks like he could be “very good.”

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BOTTOM LINE: When I watch Jared Goff’s college tape, I get the same reaction as when I watched see Aaron Donald’s college tape. Many times I thought “WOW—how did he do that!??!!” And then, even more shocking, it becomes ROUTINE. The more you watch Goff’s tape, the more you realize he does the amazing REPEATEDLY and CONSISTENTLY. And it’s the same damn knock for both Donald and Goff: “Yeah, but he’s a little small for the position.” For both Goff and Donald, it’s demonstrably not true.

To me, Goff looks Super Bowls, Wentz looks Playoffs. Wentz has “It”, Goff has IT.

FINAL DISCLAIMER: I acknowledge I could be wrong about EVERYTHING in this long post, I’ve been horribly wrong about the Rams plenty of times. Maybe Goff is weak-armed and too skinny and he’ll have trouble adjusting to a pro-style offense and all his good habits will get knocked out of him. Maybe Wentz will be a solid stud for years to come.

But right now, I have my heart set on Goff, and I’ll have to drink lots of Kool-Aid if they surprise me and go with Wentz. For Wentz supporters, feel free to disagree with me, I know we all just want what’s best for our Rams!

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from off the net

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Deadpool

My Goff and Wentz breakdown

First Goff

Jared Goff – Cal – 6′-4″ 215 lbs

The “Bear” Raid offense at a glance:
4 WRs sets with no TE and a single back.
A ton of screens, WR screens, inside screens, RB screens. Every screen in the book.
Not a lot of deep stuff, more short to intermediate
Never under center
Never audibled (at least from what I could tell)
Never called out line protections
Very few designed QB roll outs
Some called QB draws

Pro’s:
-Arm is enough to make all the NFL throws.
Ex. Against Utah he threw from the opposite hash at the 41 yard line to the 3 yard line on a dime for a TD.
-Moves well laterally in the pocket
-Moves up well in the pocket
-Goes though progressions
Ex. He went to his 3rd and 2nd options early in the Utah game. 3rd progression at least once in UCLA game
-He competes, even if Cal was out of it, he didn’t seem to give up and just kept firing
-When allowed to set up his accuracy is elite at all levels
Ex. he was lights out against Air Force
-Will change arm slot to complete passes
-Will put air under the ball when needed (although, he could do it more)
-An ok runner, he knows how to slide
-Willing to throw into tight windows
-Can take a hit
-Seems calm in a chaotic pocket

Cons:
-As stated, will take some time with a pro style offense
-Sometimes is totally unaware of the rush. It could get him killed.
-Deep ball accuracy is hit and miss
-when forced to reload, accuracy is downright bad.
-While arm is good enough, he rarely throws with a lot of zip. Not an elite arm.
-Goes down on first contact.
-Will force passes
Ex. again going to the Utah game Lawler was at fault with the1st int., the next 4 (yes 5 total) were all on Goff.

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Next Wentz:

Carson Wentz – NDSU – 6′-5″ 237 lbs.

NDSU’s offense at a glance:
Ball control pro style offense. Top FCS team usually in ToP, like to control the line of Scrimmage with 3 RBs in the run game and wear you down.
Will run some jet sweep stuff
A fair amount of QB keeper stuff.
Playaction
Under center and from the gun.

Pro’s:
-Wentz had total control of the offense, from calling any play in the playbook to calling out protections.
-Played from under center
-Elite arm
-Throws with touch at all levels
-Will change arm slot to make the completion
-Will move in the pocket to avoid the rush, but also to find a throwing lane
-Can throw on the run, but he will throw on the run. Rarely stops after a roll out, sets and throws.
-Tough, physical runner
-throws into tight windows
-Clutch QB, seems calm all the time
Ex. – see last TD pass in Northern Iowa game.
-Was consistently the best QB this off-season. From Senior Bowl to Combine, step up in competition didn’t effect him.
-Goes thru progressions (although not all the time)
Ex. Northern Iowa, 1st pass of the game starts looking left, moves to the middle and throws there, incomplete.
He competes.

Con’s
-Needs to learn to slide or go out of bounds. He is an aggressive runner that could get him killed in the NFL.
-Has had a few injuries over his career, ankle sprain against Montana, broken wrist against USD (never came out of either game, although he should have)
-Accuracy can be spotty, more-so as a Jr then a Sr., but if his accuracy was off, it stayed off.
-Sometimes takes off and runs too early, not going thru progressions
-Needs to speed up his process. Although it looked fine at the Senior Bowl. He can be late on some throws.
-Makes some throws that just should not be made. Trusts his arm too much I guess.

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As far as other stuff

Both are smart, clean off the field prospects that are seemingly leaders (I know Wentz is, Goff seems like it) that really comes down to personal taste.

One one hand you have a smaller, QB with a lot of bigtime college football under his belt. On the other hand you have a big, strong armed QB with 14 fewer starts at the FCS level.

You are going to hear upside with Wentz and more polished with Goff. I don’t necessarily buy that. Wentz has performed well at everything he has been asked to. Senior Bowl with a bunch of FBS guys? Best QB all week. Combine with the the best of the best and who was the best? Wentz again. So at what point does Wentz get credit for just being a good QB?

The other thing is that you hear: Well, he played at division 2 (wrong) or played at a lower level or beat up on lesser competition. Well sure, but his team was also built from the same type of guys. He never had a Lawler on his team like Goff did. Heck, Jacksonville State was built with basically all FBS transfers, not NDSU. If you want to argue that he has only thrown 600 or so college passes, fine. I’ll buy that. But he has competed at every level of this thing and nothing phases him.

And as far as Goff, he might be more polished as far as passing, but he has a ways to go in a pro style offense. As far as pro style offense its Wentz all day. I think Goff is actually the one with the upside. He’s younger, his arm/body can and should get bigger and as he grows into a pro style offense he will get more comfortable and to me that lends itself to upside.

To me they are close to even. I give Wentz the edge on his size/arm. but its personal taste.I like a Rothlisberger over a Ryan. Or a Flacco over Bridgewater.

If you feel more comfortable with a guy like Matt Ryan you are going to like Goff. If a big armed QB that can extend plays with his legs like Rothlisberger, then Wentz is your guy.

Here’s the million dollar question: Does Wentz make the leap to the NFL more or less seamless then Goff makes the adjustment to a prostyle offense?

Oh and just food for thought: Who do you want as your QB in Seattle in December in the rain with the division on the line? Or GB in January in the first round of the playoffs?

And for dessert: Could lightning really strike twice and Goff actually develops into Aaron Rodgers? Or Kyle Boller?

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from off the net

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dolphinlover123

I’m a Cal fan and a prospective Rams fan. No Cal fan wants Goff to go to the Browns. We want the best for him and we hope that he goes to the Rams. Cal fans love Goff and have high expectations for him. It’s truly been a blessing to watch him play.

He is really accurate most of the time and just makes plays. You might think that Wentz is better on his feet, but trust me, Goff knows when and how to use his feet. He scrambles really well and is actually deceivingly shifty. Wentz might be the more physical one, but Goff plays really smart, and he can throw his body for the team when necessary. He’s certainly done that at Cal.

Goff could’ve been so much better had he had a little more time in the pocket. Our O-line was one of the worst and gave Goff very little time in the pocket (which also explains his very quick releases). Goff has taken so many hits the first two years at Cal. That’s one reason that I really hope that Goff goes to the Rams. He will get crushed at Cleveland. Make no mistake though. He is deadly when defenses show blitz. He lets them come to him and throws over them and eats them up.

Goff throws great deep balls and knows which shoulder to throw at. His footwork has also received plenty of praise. Just give him some time in the pocket, and you’ve got a deadly QB.

Don’t let Cal’s poor records in his first two years worry you. Our defense has been rated the worst in the entire division 1 football. Our O-line has also been prettyyyy bad. But still, he always keeps his cool and will make his throws.

TLDR

1. Goff is accurate and times his throws very well. Enough strength.
2. He is great in the red-zone
3. Amazing footwork that allows him to scramble and move in his pocket to buy time and look for his receivers
4. Great against blitz
5. Quick reads and releases
6. He is a quality guy that won’t start drama. He is humble and does the right things.
7. Cal’s defense and O-line sucked. And actually our running game was not good either. So even though we ran a pretty one dimensional offense, he did pretty well.

even MORE follow-up

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jrry32

I’ve spent months watching the QBs in this draft to try and determine who the Rams should draft after seeing our struggles this year.

For those who have only seen the highlights and read the scouting reports or heard from the talking head, I hope this is useful for you. I’m going to break down the strengths and weaknesses of each passer, compare them to a few NFL passers, and explain my preference for Goff over Wentz. For those of you who question where my report comes from, I watched between 12 and 20 games for each of Goff and Wentz which includes games from past years. Here are my reports on each:

Goff

Strengths:

Great accuracy and touch on passes to all levels of the field. Will hit the strike zone consistently. Can drop the ball in the bucket on deep passes. Puts the ball in the correct spot for YAC. Doesn’t throw with more velocity than is needed. Consistently throws the ball in a way to protect his WRs when possible.

Outstanding pocket presence, movement, and poise under pressure. He’s truly Luck caliber in his ability to maneuver the pocket, buy time, and find or create throwing lanes as a college passer. He has active, quick feet which allow him to set and reset quickly when moving and get the ball out in an instant. Dealt with a lot of pressure due to having a poor performing OL and constantly threw with defenders in his face or after he was forced off his spot.

Top tier mental processing speed through his progressions and reads. Quick-minded player who can move through full-field reads with speed. Consistently can get to his 3rd or 4th progression when needed even when under fire. Rarely locks onto WRs. He also throws with great anticipation. He understands how to throw a WR open and how throws should be timed.
Tough SOB. He took a beating throughout his career at Cal due to his OL and due to the team’s lack of success. His defense was consistently one of the worst in the NCAA and forced Goff into shootouts. They went 1-11 his freshman year and 5-7 his sophomore year. Goff kept it together, never got discouraged, and helped Cal go 8-5 in his junior year. Some will blame Goff for his team not winning more but Cal’s offense actually ranked 11th in points per game with 38.2 points per game scored his sophomore year…the problem was that their defense gave up 39.8 points per game. His junior year, the offense performed similarly with 37.8 points per game ranking 17th in the NCAA but the defense improved to allowing only 30.7 points per game which accounted for the team winning 8 games instead of 5. For those who knock Goff for not winning more, I have to wonder how a QB can compensate for a defense that allows nearly 40 points per game. Even Drew Brees has struggled to get New Orleans over the hump when their defense is among the worst in the NFL.

Excellent intangibles. I have heard nothing but good things about Goff’s work ethic, film habits, personality, leadership, and character. He’s not an outgoing and outwardly confident at Wentz but Goff is the type of kid who is the first in and the last out by all reports and is popular among teammates. Goff was also responsible for running his offense at the LOS and received more responsibility at the LOS from his OC than any other QB who played under him.

Checks all the physical boxes. Goff is 6’4″ 215 with solid mobility, awesomely quick feet, and an above average arm. His hands are meet the minimum criteria in terms of size. And he’s never missed a start due to an injury although he did suffer a separated shoulder in the last game of his freshman year at Cal.

Great decision-maker. Goff is a lot like Peyton Manning in how you’d classify him. He’s not a true gunslinger or a true game manager. He mixes elements of both but leans a tad more towards the gunslinger side of the coin. He’s never shied away from testing tight coverage, he will take shots down the field, and he has a tremendous amount of confidence in his ability to fit throws into tight windows.

Quick, natural release. Goff gets the ball out quickly and efficiently.

Weaknesses:

Goff has a skinny frame and his hands are smaller than you’d like. He had some issues with fumbles during his career although it did seem to improve in his final year at Cal. There are some concerns that his frame will lead to durability issues in the NFL. It’s possible.

Goff will occasionally short-arm passes that he rushes which leads to inaccuracy. He also has some stretches of inconsistency when teams are able to throw him off his rhythm. He’s definitely a rhythm passer. When he’s on, he’s lethal but he does have some stretches in games where he’s off.

Goff’s arm is above average but it isn’t elite. He won’t be able to make some of the intermediate to deep sideline throws with zip at the NFL level against tight coverage. But there’s a possibility that his arm strength will increase as he adds weight and physically matures.

Goff can be fooled by underneath zone defenders at times which has led to interceptions. Will also force some passes knowing there is a risk of interception. Washington State got him once using a Cover-2 Trap. Goff went after the trap a few others times in the game and got away with it. He’s definitely a guy who will take some risks.

Hasn’t had many big moments in his career. Cal hasn’t been a contender and Goff hasn’t had to make many drives in big, close games. He did it this year against Arizona State but it wasn’t a game on a big stage.
Goff played in an Air Raid variant so taking drops under center and learning a NFL playbook and NFL verbiage will be new to him.

Overall:

Frankly, Goff doesn’t have a lot of true weaknesses. He has some attributes that aren’t strengths but they’re more neutral than weaknesses. He’s a polished passer who is extremely adept mentally and a great pure thrower. I’ve been smitten with him for over a year. Some will say that he resembles Bradford. And he does. He looks like college Bradford. Skinny kid who is a great pure thrower. But he’s so much more advanced in the pocket than Bradford was. I hate to throw around this comparison but he really reminds me of Peyton Manning. Manning is the best QB I’ve seen play the game and one of my favorite players of all time so I don’t throw that comparison around lightly. But he has feet, instincts, and movement in the pocket that are like Manning. And his coach even discusses how Goff studied Manning’s feet and mannerisms in the pocket. What I see in Goff is a guy who I think will realistically pan out like Philip Rivers.(I can’t say he’ll pan out like Manning…it’s just not fair to any player to expect that) He’s not a dead-on comparison for Rivers as they have different body types, throwing motions, and demeanors. However, like Rivers, Goff has great movement and feel in the pocket, he is highly effective throwing vertically despite not possessing an elite arm, and he’s a highly intelligent guy with a great feel for the game. I was reading an article where Goff was describing his thought process on a series of plays. He explained how he recognized that Stanford was playing a Cover-2, anticipated that their CB would not abandon his assignment to jump the underneath route because of his inexperience, and then showed a video of him making a perfect throw into the window created by the Stanford CB carrying the outside WR up the field rather than abandoning the assignment to jump the route the slot WR ran. Then Goff explained that the next time they ran that play in the same game, he expected the CB to not play the outside WR quite as tightly due to being burned once. Due to this, Goff threw the same route but released the ball a tick earlier and threw it to his WR’s back hip to keep the CB from being able to jump the route, and then they showed the video of the throw being put on his WR’s back hip a split second sooner and the CB trying to jump the route but failing because the ball was on the other side of the WR. What’s my point here? Goff combines all the things you look for in a great QB into one skill-set. He’s highly intelligent, he’s deadly accurate, he has outstanding work habits, and he has amazing instincts in the pocket. I think he’s a #1 overall caliber player and if we draft him, we’ll win at least one Super Bowl with him as a our QB. You can bookmark this thread if you think that comment is too “optimistic.”

Wentz

Strengths:

Wentz is the most physically talented passer since Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick. We’re talking about a 6’5″ 235 pound QB with good mobility and a rifle for an arm. The day he steps onto the NFL field, he’ll have one of the strongest arms in the NFL. This is a kid who can make any throw you ask him to. There is no throw off limits in an offense. You want a 15 yard out route from the opposite hash? He’ll make the throw. You want a 60 yard hail mary bomb? He’ll make the throw. He’s got an unreal arm. We’re talking Kaepernick, Newton, Cutler, Rodgers tier arm here.

Wentz is a very accurate passer with the potential to be even more accurate in the future. He will make a lot of throws that make your jaw-drop because of his arm strength/accuracy combination. I saw him make throws to intermediate comebacks where the CB was blanketing the WR. I saw him make a throw down the seam that dropped perfectly between 3 defenders to his WR. And despite his arm strength, the touch is there. He’ll put some mustard on shorter throws when the window is tight but he knows when to take something off the ball. And he needs to make a tough throw, he will. People have a far more negative impression of his deep ball than they should because he throws it with such good touch. He has slow WRs so he airs the ball out to allow them to adjust to it and make plays rather than trying to throw lasers that they won’t be able to run under. People think that his deep ball will hang at times but it’s by design. I’ve seen him throw passes 55 yards in the air on a line.

Wentz’s instincts in the pocket are good. He feels pressure, he reacts, and he does his best to escape pressure. Wentz doesn’t drop his eyes. He doesn’t get happy feet. He doesn’t fear being hit. He has a good feel for pressure and knows when to get rid of the ball. He has great poise and composure in the pocket.

Wentz is a great runner who is a legitimate threat to take off and pick up big chunks of yardage if the defense doesn’t respect his legs. He isn’t Kaepernick or RGIII fast but he has good vision, good agility, and is fearless (too much so, frankly).

Wentz is an outstanding decision-maker who rarely forces balls into coverage. He will not hesitate to take risks or take shots down the field but he’s not a guy who takes unjustifiable risks. And when he does take risks, he generally puts the ball in a spot where only his guy will make a play.

Wentz’s intelligence and intangibles are top notch. People have been raving about his work habits, leadership, intelligence, and character. He’s the type of guy that NFL evaluators dream of at QB. He’s a good ole boy who speaks with confidence, commands respect, studies hard in the classroom and the film room, and behaves himself off the field. Type of kid who is the first one in the building and the last to leave. And I’ve heard rumors that he has an insanely good memory and ability to retain information.

Wentz played in a pro style run-first system that has a lot of similarities to the offense that the Rams currently run. He used verbiage similar to the verbiage used in the pros. He’s a very pro ready player mentally and was responsible for running his pro style offense at the LOS (this included calling protections). Wentz made full-field reads, went through progressions with speed, and threw NFL routes.

Wentz played in plenty of big moments and made a number of big time plays and big time drives in those games. There’s no question of whether he can handle pressure or “clutch” situations. This is a kid who led a come from behind game winning drive with less than 2 minutes left down 4 in the FCS National Championship game during his first year as a starter. In the big moments, Wentz will step up.

Weaknesses:

Wentz’s lower body mechanics need a lot of refinement. Like Jameis Winston, he plays with too wide of a throwing base which constantly forces him to set and reset when he’s forced off his spot and wastes precious time before he throws trying to get himself in a proper base. Wentz also is very inconsistent with his pocket movement. He flashes it from time to time but allows his feet to die too often in the pocket. He’s got to keep his feet active and keep moving or he’ll be a sitting duck in the NFL. He received consistent protection at NDSU from a talented OL so he was able to get away with picking a spot and staying there a lot of the time. Wentz’s feet are also not as agile and light as Goff’s.

Wentz needs to be more deceptive with his eyes. He locks onto WRs at times and can get tunnel vision. He’s definitely behind Goff in this category as Goff does a great job of moving defenders with his eyes and keeping from locking onto targets. Wentz got away with it in college because he has such a cannon for an arm but he needs to be more consistent using his eyes to move defenders or NFL defenders will pick on him as a rookie.

Wentz needs to do a better job of protecting the ball when he runs and protecting himself. He took a lot of unnecessary hits at NDSU and ended up breaking his wrist due to that. He also fumbled quite a bit when he took off and ran. We can’t have either of those things in the NFL because both are easily preventable.

Wentz doesn’t move as quickly and seamlessly through his progressions as Goff does. He’ll lock onto WRs from time to time and be late to his second or third progression. But this is understandable as he has a lot less starting experience.

Wentz played at the FCS level so he didn’t perform against anywhere near the level of athletes he’ll be facing at the NFL. That all said, he still threw against plenty of tight windows due to how unathletic his WRs were.

Overall:

Wentz has bigger questions and is less polished than Goff. He’s got some mechanical issues in his lower body that he’ll have to work through although he did show significant improvement during the Senior Bowl and pre-draft process as a whole. However, Wentz is incredibly physically gifted and has all the requisite attributes needed to be great. He has the instincts and mental acuity. I don’t see anything lacking in his skill-set aside from the correctable issues that I discussed above. He does have some similarities to Bradford in that he’s not as fleet-footed as Goff in the pocket and didn’t have to develop great pocket movement in college due to his protection but I think he has a better feel for pressure than Bradford did coming out and is more poised under pressure. Wentz’s ceiling is sky high and he’s a great fit for a run first offense. Especially one that wants to throw vertically. Wentz needs to protect himself in the NFL in order to stay healthy. Some people compare him to Big Ben but I don’t really see the same game there. Ben is such a strong guy and unwilling to go down. Wentz doesn’t have the same strength and tackle-breaking ability in the pocket.

Personally, I think he’s more like a young Carson Palmer. People may scoff at that who don’t remember Palmer when he was younger before the catastrophic knee injury but Palmer actually ran a 4.65 40 coming out of college. My personal opinion is that, despite Wentz’s athleticism, he shouldn’t be used as a runner in the NFL. Like Palmer, he has the ability to be a great pocket passer. Develop him as a passer and protect him from injuries. If he has a seam, he can certainly run. Just make sure he knows to get down and protect himself. Wentz has some similarities to Bortles although I think he’s more mentally polished than Bortles was. Ultimately though, I think he has Favre-caliber throwing ability. He doesn’t have the gunslinger mindset that Favre has but he has that caliber of an arm and movement skills. I fully expect Wentz to be a top 10 QB in the NFL once he develops. One thing I loved reading about Wentz was the breakdown of the game winning TD he threw against Northern Iowa. In Wentz’s first year as a starter, Northern Iowa kicked NDSU’s ass. You knew Wentz wanted to get revenge. Northern Iowa got after Wentz and hit him a lot in that game. Wentz threw his first two INTs of the season in that game because their defense was playing so well. One of them was simply a bad decision under pressure. Down 4 with less than 2 minutes, Wentz drove NDSU almost 80 yards. On his final play, Wentz recognized that the defense was in Cover-1 man and recognized the blitz they were bringing so he changed the protection and audibled the play to take advantage of the match-up of his slot WR on the LB. Wentz threw a slot fade that the FS in Cover-1 couldn’t get to and the LB covering the slot WR wasn’t in position to defend for the game winning TD. It was equally impressive that he recognized the coverage early enough to change the concept and the blitz to change the protection as well as him also having the confidence to change the play and the protection in that sort of situation (45 seconds left in the game down by 4 just inside the red-zone). I think Wentz is every bit worth being the #2 pick and I expect whoever takes him will end up being very happy with him.

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Those are my thoughts and I think the Rams have a win-win decision on their hands.

I slightly prefer Goff over Wentz. But both guys will be franchise QBs in the NFL. I do think Goff is the more polished player and the less risky choice. Despite the offense he played in, he’s a very developed QB who is ready to step in and make an immediate impact…and he’s not lacking for upside either.

No matter what happens on April 28th, this team has a bright future with Goff or Wentz at the helm.. I think both Goff and Wentz are the right choices. It’s a win-win and we can’t go wrong. I prefer Goff. But a person isn’t wrong to prefer Wentz. They simply value certain attributes differently than I do.

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In terms of the Rams offense, I happen to think that our WRs/TEs will look a whole lot better with a QB who can throw the ball accurately and on time. Especially Britt and Austin. Britt will never be Calvin Johnson but he’s a legitimate vertical threat. With better QB play the past couple years, I think he has at least one 1000 yard season. And we have no idea what Austin can or will be. His route running seemed to improve a lot last year but our QBs just couldn’t get him the ball.

Will our WR/TE corps be great? No. But they don’t have to be. We’re run a first offense. We just need a guy at QB who can make the throws that are there and help us sustain drive. We don’t need a lot out of our rookie passer.