wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

wv wrote:

…Michael Flynn.

Somehow my post got through before I finished it. Guess i pushed a wrong button someplace.

You just wonder how Robert Mueller must be feeling right now. All that time and effort spent. Maybe he knew all along this would be the result.

==================

America is a ‘totalitarian regime’ ?

Now, who is the cynic? 🙂

Anyway, yeah, its beyond words. About half the voters love Trump though, apparently.

w
v

Yeah I can see him being reelected. I just don’t know how people think anymore. Maybe its because our country was born from independence and rugged individualism-whatever that means-and to many he just sounds and looks “tough”. Add to that their hatred of anything about the democrats who they believe are smelly communists who want to take their “stuff” away from them and you have the witches brew that brought the guy into office.

The real irony to me is he won because of the existence of the electoral college which was established because of the fear that if left to a popular vote the voters might select a tyrant ! So the framers thought Congress should do the bidding because they were more “informed” and judicious. How is that for irony-the very process to prevent a tyrant holding the office created one.

waterfield wrote:

The Dept of Justice-under the leadership of Barr-just now filed a motion to dismiss the entire case relating to

Michael Flynn notwithstanding his acknowledgment and plea of guilty to all charges including lying to the FBI. Its officially OK to now lie to the FBI if you have a supporter who is the President. Next ? How about Roger Stone? How can the American public have any confidence in the Dept of Justice that stands for the rights of all people in this country. Maybe people just don’t care. Maybe they think all of government is crooked and those that run it are all bought and paid for. Of course that attitude is precisely how and why authoritarian governments come into power in the first place.

I’m sure Robert Mueller has seen better days than today. I feel for the guy and those dedicated lawyers w/i the DOJ that have been forced to leave over this crap.

God help us.

zn wrote:

Nevertheless, I do have an opinion which I intend to share-unless your words “you are among progressives here” are meant to imply I’m not welcome here.

Well, obviously, no one is implying that. Of course you’re welcome here, and I don;t know who would say otherwise.

My comment had nothing to do with you being here, or being welcome, or any of that. Here’s what I said: “And you still tend to broad-brush stroke all Sanders supporting progressives. Just a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.” That’s about a certain kind of statement, where you seem to want to describe “progressives” to us. All I said about that is, we’re probably not inclined to accept stereotypes of that kind. Which is true. If you keep it up, I would imagine you would get more resistance than genuine exchanges.

An example is this:

My other point was I just don’t see the same “hate” toward progressives from moderates that progressives have towards moderates.

First, I have seen that hate from moderates to progressives (the thing you don’t see) and I have seen it in royal abundance. (One of the ways it shows up is people identified as moderate telling progressives “what they are,” which is invariably something negative.) All I take from the comment of yours I quote is that people engaged in political discussion can tend to get confrontive, but in my experience it is individuals from every position (right, center, liberals, leftists) doing it, with no one position doing it any more or less than any other. But then we all think it’s the other guys doing it.

I just think the chances of better conversation increase the less we address each other with that kind of stereotyping.

Fair enough?

…

That’s fair. I think I’m going to back off the subject for a while. As someone wrote everyone has a right to an opinion. I only hope that I may have rung a bell or two when people give what I wrote “a second thought”. That’s all.

zn wrote:

All I’m saying is “I don’t know” and therefore I’m not accepting a claim as a truism simply because its made. If that puts me in the “smear the victim” group then I don’t know what to do !

I took this statement as doing that (and remember I said, indirectly):

But would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story? I’m thinking that if your totally honest with yourself-either here on this board or alone with your private thoughts-you would truly hesitate before pronouncing as you did referring to Biden: “Politicians who rape their staffers are evil”. You see-to me that tells me that its clearly more about politics than about rape-and does a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault.

First, in that comment, you position people who believe Biden’s accuser as being political. They will, you suggest, believe the accusation depending on who the accused is. Though you exempt yourself from that. You might have had a better case with that if you said ALL people with political beliefs will tend to believe or disbelieve an accuser depending who the accused is, be it Biden or Sanders. Even then I would disagree–I don’t think that applies to everyone, not at all. As is, you open yourself up to the counter-charge that you can’t accept the woman’s accusation against Biden because it’s just as political for you as you claim it is for others.

The actual FBI figure btw is 8% on reported rape cases being false accusations. The FBI could not know how many unreported rape cases there are so they can’t factor that into the percentage.

And you still tend to broad-brush stroke all Sanders supporting progressives. Just a reminder that you are among progressives here, and we’re probably not inclined to accept broad brush stroke stereotypes about what that means.

I agree there might be a tendency of Biden supporters to believe a rape “claim” against Sanders solely because of political preferences. I would be just as critical towards them-but were not facing any such “claims” against Sanders by Biden supporters are we? In my view, without anything more than a “claim” I see no difference at all between one person saying he raped her and another person saying she’s lying. Both are totally unfounded without anything more than a “claim”. Moreover, you don’t call a person a rapist based on some numbers that claim to show most victims don’t lie. That, to me, is no different than justifying the death penalty because only a small minority of those on death row are actually innocent. Same with saying there are very few blacks hanging around together late at night wearing gang clothes with gang tattoos and displaying gang signs that are innocent of any wrongdoings-as a way to justify profiling without any evidence of actual wrongdoing. As far as justifying a rape claim based on Biden’s hx of aggressive physical contacts with not just women but men as well-fails to account for the fact that untoward contact with women by males has been on exhibit for a long time-especially in the professional arena. My wife who was an engineer who worked on the Lunar module product leading up to the moon landing was in an almost totally dominated male environment and was subject to what in today’s standard would be considered sexual harassment on many occasions. She later became a public school superintendent in what at the time was another male dominated occupation and once again the same behavior from male colleagues. Whether it was jealousy or misguided affection-who knows. Unfortunately, many women experience this, even today, especially professional women. But that is not RAPE nor should that behavior be the grounds for believing a person is a rapist. Most rapists are isolated, lonely, victims of some type of abuse themselves and the criminal act is one of ANGER and not affection. In sum, the business of Biden’t overly affection toward women along with the alleged number of few untruthful “victims” is misguided and an unfounded basis for concluding someone is a RAPIST. That’s my opinion.

zn wrote:

But would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story?

I don’t play that game.

It’s just simply true that there is a low percentage of false claims.

And conspiracy theories aside, the idea that some poor woman would put herself out there for the “blame the victim” effects they get from accusing a celebrity of rape–just for political reasons? Nah. That sounds completely far-fetched to me. It actually sounds like you are doing the smear the victim thing, just indirectly. Why? You’re a Biden advocate.

Some guy on the internet smearing a rape accuser because their candidate is the one accused sounds much more plausible to me than the idea that a woman would put herself through that for mere political reasons.

BUT if Sanders were accused I would have the exact same feelings. Cause as I said not all of us play that game.

And Nittany said he was voting for Biden regardless so there’s that too.

I’m doing the “smear the victim thing” ? I won’t even respond to that. Unsure what you mean by “playing that game” so I won’t respond to that either. As far as Nittany saying he was going to vote for Biden anyway-I can’t imagine me voting for anyone who I genuinely believed was guilty of raping a woman. And yes that is true even in the face of a Trump second term. But that’s apparently just me.

wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

Joe Biden a rapist ? Right. I’m sure Sanders has so little class he would support a rapist. Elizabeth Warren ? Oh, she doesn’t care either -she too would support a rapist. And all the rest of those candidates who support Biden. Obama, Harris, Yang, Buttigieg, Klobuchar. Clearly, they all have no morals since they are supporting a rapist. Then again maybe they too are all sexual predators so it doesn’t bother them in the least. Then again maybe they don’t even know about this “allegation”, huh ?

I believe it is this precise reason why so many undecided people turned away from Sanders-not so much because of Bernie’s policies but because of the vitriol spread by his supporters-which sadly taints a good man. A true progressive to me has always been a champion of the rights of an individual. Calling a person a rapist based on a “claim” only without knowing the claimant and or anything about that person other than they work for someone who you share political common ground with is more than simply distasteful. And I strongly suspect that if the tables were reversed with Sanders being the accused there would be no such fervor.

Most moderate democrats I know harbor no ill will toward Sanders, Stein, Warren, or for that matter any other progressives. Based on the language from progressives -I do know a few-plus media accounts, I can’t say the same in terms of how they relate to “other” democrats. The rapist claim is simply one example. It smacks of Willie Horton all over again. Maybe the far left and far right do share something.

====

Sexual assault allegations are a nightmare. We dont know. He might be a rapist, She might be a liar. Its a nightmare.

How would you suggest voters and the media handle it?

We know how a court of law would handle it, but we are not in a court of law. So, people arent limited by legal standards. I have no problem with people believing her. Or him. Or believing they dont know. We’re not in court.

w
v

All that is true. People have a right to believe what they want to believe. My point is that -courtroom or not-its unfair to Biden to claim he’s a rapist when the engine that’s driving that assertion is more about politics than it is about the alleged assault. Which is why I asked :if the claim came out of the Biden camp and was directed at Sanders would the same person assert the same “I believe the girl” and Sanders is a rapist. Of course not. That is all. My other point was I just don’t see the same “hate” toward progressives from moderates that progressives have towards moderates. Maybe that’s because progressives tend to be younger and are not as restricted in their speech behavior as us “older” folks. It also appears to me -at least on this board-that democrats who are not “progressive” enough are far more targets for attack than the boogie man in the WH and his supporters. That to me has always been -just weird. If ANYONE should be the subject of attack…

Joe Biden a rapist ? Right. I’m sure Sanders has so little class he would support a rapist. Elizabeth Warren ? Oh, she doesn’t care either -she too would support a rapist. And all the rest of those candidates who support Biden. Obama, Harris, Yang, Buttigieg, Klobuchar. Clearly, they all have no morals since they are supporting a rapist. Then again maybe they too are all sexual predators so it doesn’t bother them in the least. Then again maybe they don’t even know about this “allegation”, huh ?

I believe it is this precise reason why so many undecided people turned away from Sanders-not so much because of Bernie’s policies but because of the vitriol spread by his supporters-which sadly taints a good man. A true progressive to me has always been a champion of the rights of an individual. Calling a person a rapist based on a “claim” only without knowing the claimant and or anything about that person other than they work for someone who you share political common ground with is more than simply distasteful. And I strongly suspect that if the tables were reversed with Sanders being the accused there would be no such fervor.

Most moderate democrats I know harbor no ill will toward Sanders, Stein, Warren, or for that matter any other progressives. Based on the language from progressives -I do know a few-plus media accounts, I can’t say the same in terms of how they relate to “other” democrats. The rapist claim is simply one example. It smacks of Willie Horton all over again. Maybe the far left and far right do share something.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by waterfield.

nittany ram wrote:

I, as a moderate, have never once thought of Sanders as “evil”. But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.

I think politicians who rape their staffers are evil.

And on what FACTS do you base this statement-besides some anti Biden blog someplace. (hopefully not from the Sanders camp) That is an awfully important claim which IMO should always be sounded on something solid. Otherwise its simply Fox news or worse-just pure crap.

zn wrote:

W, we always have to supply links with articles.

I fixed this one though.

Thank you. I’ve posted articles from the L.A. Times before and you say not everyone has access. So I now simply copy and paste.

zn wrote:

But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.

Do you envision that kind of statement as an effort to bring progressive voters into the fold and reason them into voting for Biden?

Cause…that approach is not going to work.

You’re bashing.

As a rule, you don’t persuade people through bashing them. Right?

Regardless how you excuse it.

….

Thx for the lecture. I’m not here to convince anyone. This small board of progressives won’t matter. I’m simply venting and addressing precisely what Sanders was when he said it would be “irresponsible” for his supporters to not support Biden. If that’s bashing-so be it.

I do believe that any intelligent and fair mined progressive would agree, is that the very worst thing for the disenfranchised, for the poor, the sick, for minorities, for the environment, for the rights of women, for the income inequality, for civil rights across the board, would be another 4 years of the dictator in the WH. Armed with that belief, to sit out an election of this magnitude would indeed be “irresponsible”.

I also don’t agree that any adult with a fair mind, progressive or not, would sit out an election of this importance because they felt “bashed” on a message board.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by waterfield.

I, as a moderate, have never once thought of Sanders as “evil”. But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.

Zooey wrote:

Well…see…that’s fine. I am fine with his leadership in this crisis. His personality doesn’t mean much to me, but I prefer his bedside manner to Trump’s.

He wants to cut the state budget on the backs of poor people, though. So…he’s a non-starter for me because that’s something I will never compromise on.

Zooey: I’m unclear what your writing. Are you saying that in order for the Governor to cut the budget he focused solely on programs to assist the poor and cut funds for these ?. If so I am unaware of that. If OTOH, in order to cut the budget he cut funds across the board that obviously would have a greater impact on the poor-especially if it touched on medicaid. But that will always be true of any across the board budget cut -which is entirely different than saying we need to cut the budget so lets focus on medicaid.