waterfield wrote:

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

I’m watching most of what’s happening in So Cal.

No you’re not watching them W. You’re watching what tv shows you about them.

I know some people IN those protests in southern cal who are posting in Facebook and in twitter about them. The word is always the same–it’s peaceful until the police show up and try to shut them down with violence. Sometimes elements of the crowd react violently to that.

Police over-reacting? Isn’t that what we should expect in LA by now?

And I just posted a series of images/vids from peaceful protests all over. Some with the police joining in. Normally most people will tell you, I don’t get fooled by tv. Well, in my experience, the truth is most do, in spite of what they say.

There are all sorts of things going on right now and this is not a time to reduce everything to a one-note narrative. What you fear might be happening IS one of the things that’s happening. But it is false–false, as in 3 + 3 = 2 false–to act like it all reduces to just one story.

Yes there are peaceful protests going on. Yes the police are causing trouble all on their own unprovoked in a lot of cases. That’s all true too.

…

Facebook and Twitter. That’s how you are so well informed on this ? I suggest you see for your own eyes and then listen to the mayors, police chiefs, fire dept officials, reporters on the scene from a variety of sources-and to be honest I don’t see how you can do that unless you turn on a television. If you want to stick with face book and twitter-fine.

I’m watching store after store, after store in areas all over So Cal that are being either on fire or being looted from inexpensive to the elegant stores in Beverly Hills. I have not seen anything like this since Rodney King. This is not democracy. This is anarchy. During the day it was not like this. It was peaceful and impressive.

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

I’m watching most of what’s happening in So Cal.

No you’re not watching them W. You’re watching what tv shows you about them.

I know some people IN those protests in southern cal who are posting in Facebook and in twitter about them. The word is always the same–it’s peaceful until the police show up and try to shut them down with violence. Sometimes elements of the crowd react violently to that.

Police over-reacting? Isn’t that what we should expect in LA by now?

And I just posted a series of images/vids from peaceful protests all over. Some with the police joining in. Normally most people will tell you, I don’t get fooled by tv. Well, in my experience, the truth is most do, in spite of what they say.

There are all sorts of things going on right now and this is not a time to reduce everything to a one-note narrative. What you fear might be happening IS one of the things that’s happening. But it is false–false, as in 3 + 3 = 2 false–to act like it all reduces to just one story.

Yes there are peaceful protests going on. Yes the police are causing trouble all on their own unprovoked in a lot of cases. That’s all true too.

…

Facebook and Twitter. That’s how you are so well informed on this ? I suggest you see for your own eyes and then listen to the mayors, police chiefs, fire dept officials, reporters on the scene from a variety of sources-and to be honest I don’t see how you can do that unless you turn on a television. If you want to stick with face book and twitter-fine.

Zooey wrote:

I’m not interested in getting a statistical breakdown of who did what, for what reason.

There could be leftists, white nationalists, and selfish chaos-lovers in any kind of blend, and the bottom line is this:

Our police departments need reform, and the police must be held accountable for their actions.

The rest of it is ideological tug-of-war.

Reform won’t come tonight. Right now the anarchists must be stopped. And don’t fool yourself this has nothing at all to do with the death of Floyd. The genuine “protests” have ended. It’s now about hoodlums and thugs. Simple. If you think otherwise your hiding behind an agenda. And don’t think I don’t believe there is police reform desperately needed or I don’t believe that the police must be held accountable. But this-what your watching tonight-has zilch to do with that.

My take is not that we are “brainwashed” or that people don’t believe in science but that we are selfish and concerned only about ourselves. We may “believe” in science but we simply don’t “care”. We want what we want and we want it now. If other people suffer-fuck em. No one brainwashes people to be self centered and narcissistic. I don’t think anyone brainwashed Trump to being so self centered. He, like many Americans, just is. All those young idealistic Bernie supporters didn’t want to go to the poles and stand alone by themselves and vote. They were not influenced by big corporations-they simply decided it was too much to ask of themselves.

So, IMO, the real question is how did Americans become so self centered. I think it’s all about parenting. Once we figure out what to do about THAT -and stop worrying about the big corporations-we can start to begin to turn this around. Remember, while corporations didn’t CAUSE us to be so involved with ourselves it exploits that flaw in our character-to their own benefit. There is one person who knows this as much as anyone and that is Steve Bannon. It’s his opinion that someone like Trump is the perfect candidate to exploit and capitalize on the weaknesses of the American public-to the good of corporations and in furtherance of a capitalistic society. But to argue its the “system” that has weaken Americans and allowed them to be swayed by someone like Trump is to take the core problem and turn it on its head.

wv wrote:

Btw, Waterfield let me ask you this — WHY do YOU think the far-left is so very small in America? I mean compared to Italy, Spain, France, Central and South America, etc? I’m talking about actual Socialist Parties. Social-Democrats. That sort of thing. In America its just Corpoate-Dems and Corporate-Reps, and a very very small number of everything else. You said it was natural for Americans to be scared of Communism, etc. Why was it so natural for Americans to be frightened away from socialism when the Europeans, African, South and Central Americans were, apparently NOT so ‘naturally’ scared of the Red-Beast?

I don’t really have a good answer. I do have my own theory which has to do with the origin of our country as we know it. When sometime near the mid century England sought to take firmer control of its very productive colonies and the colonies resisted-which resulted in our original 13 colonies. It was based on freedom of religion and money. These were fierce rugged traders who valued independence and private wealth. Compared to developed Europe we are a relative new country and, whether we like it or not, we still retain that rugged individualism ideal and worship for private wealth.

Yes, we differ on the causes of our country’s ills. You believe, as many, that it’s system influenced. I don’t. As an example you mentioned McCarthyism and the red scare. I don’t think for a minute that was orchestrated by corporate capitalists who sat down and said lets get the American public to be frightened because it will mean more $ for us. To me it was an honest and good faith fear among Americans following the rise of the USSR-especially after WW2 concluded. Communism was anathema to the spirit of how and why our country was founded. We value the private ownership of productions and accompanying wealth. We were understandably frightened of a communist takeover by the USSR that would wipe out everything we stood for. I don’t think that was orchestrated by any “system” . It simply was a real shared fear that Americans felt.

The reason I decided to even begin this post was in reality to explore the attitude of selfishness that is so obvious in our responses to COVID-19. Of course not everyone has displayed a “me,me,me” -and “you can go to hell” attitude but enough to cause me to ask -how did we get to that. Maybe I’ve answered my own question herein.

nittany ram wrote:

waterfield wrote:

nittany ram wrote:

waterfield wrote:

P.S. (to WV) IMO the reason people didn’t vote for Sanders has nothing to do with corporate influence or capitalism. It has to do with fear the voters had of “he’s going to take away my stuff”. And that may be my entire point above.

I think the reason people think that has everything to do with the propaganda our corporate overlords have been promoting since the Red Scare. How many deaths in East Asia and Central America can be attributed to protecting US corporate interests from socialist governments that had had enough of their exploitation?

I wouldn’t call Eisenhower a “corporate overlord” or even a tool of them-whoever they are-but he was so concerned about the “red scare”-as you call it-that he began protecting the US interests in south east asia. It was an honest but misguided attempt at preventing the fall of a strategic part of the world to communism. ( can you say China) It had squat to do with “corporate overlords”. Hồ Chí Minh was not a socialist and we did not have any corporate interest in S/E Asia. Our interest was simply to protect an area that provided us with military access close to China.

And even if your corporate warlord notion is correct the questions are: Why are people so vulnerable to the propaganda?. Why aren’t you ? How come I’m not. Why do some have the ability to critically analyze issues while others don’t. How did we become a country of minions ? To me that is at the core of these issues-not- we are all at the mercy of “corporate warlords”. The latter is a simple response because we can use that to answer anything we dislike about our country. The former is a very, very complicated social issue .

Well, I won’t disagree that there was a misguided but benevolent motive behind stopping the “spread of communism”. But that wasn’t the driving force.

That simple fact that our biggest rivals (Soviet Union and USSR) were Communist was also a reason.

However, the main reason why capitalists hate communism was because they believed it was a threat to their pocket books. That was especially true in this hemisphere. It had little to do with liberating the poor souls bound to the communist yoke, (that’s the message, not the motivation) and a lot to do with protecting a fruit company. We killed a bunch of people to protect a fruit company.

I agree that the question of why some of us see this while most don’t is complicated. It involves are sorts of psychological, social, cultural etc reasons that would be interesting to research and talk about.

I agree with most all of that. Not sure who you refer to when you say “capitalists” hate communism because it was a threat to “their” pocket books. I would simply say that most if not all communist fearing Americans felt that way. It wasn’t a matter of propaganda spewed out from the mouths of corporations. It was real given the ever increasing power of the Soviet Union. People didn’t want their “stuff” being taken over by the government. Doesn’t take much propaganda to light that fire. Simply put, they didn’t have to be convinced after the Bolshevik Revolution and the rise of Lenin.

A personal anecdote-then I’m through. My wife just returned from CVS where she picked up some prescriptions. While standing in line she was wearing a mask and surgical gloves. So was the man behind her who was about the same age. A much younger woman barges in to pick up a greeting card near where they were standing. Barb says “you should be wearing a mask” . The woman responds “fuck you I ain’t wearing no mask” My wife says “its not so much to protect you as to protect other”. Woman: “fuck them” After she stomps out with her cards the man behind Barb says “they just don’t care about us do they”. Corporatocracy has nothing to do with that woman’s attitude of “me, me, me”.

wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

<

… I agree that a capitalistic society inherently breeds selfishness.
Human nature is to gather and protect what we’ve accumulated.
And of course that means it is profit driven.
But each known economic system has its own darkness.
I don’t think any system be it communism, socialism, capitalism has a monopoly on the concern-or lack of- for the sufferers among us. It’s part of human frailty.

================================

Yes, I would think that every human system has its weaknesses or darkness.
We are talking-monkeys, after all.

But there are places in Europe and Scandinavia that do seem to have more concern for the poor. So, while no human-system is perfect, some human-systems are doing better than others. It would be nice if America could take the best of each major system and adapt it to work here. If nothing else, it would be nice to have a better safety net. If we are gonna live under capitalism, it would at least be nice to have a Green-New-Deal and FDR type leadership, etc. I mean, thats a pretty low bar. And we dont even have that. Voters didnt want it. They had Bernie right there in the race — and twice now, they have said “No, we want the Corporate-Dem.” So, progressives lose, again. Just like in the 1920s 30s, 50s, 70’s, 80’s, 90s, 00s, 10s, and so far in the 20s-again.

At any rate whatever you think of this Corporate-Capitalist-System, W,
its not sustainable. Corporations are killing the life on this planet. For profit. Amphibians, Birds, Fish, Trees, Bufferflies, Polar Bears…

Yes, Corporations make nice things. But what is the cost?

w
v

I agree-we seem to be going down the rabbit hole. But I can’t believe that this is all a result of a capitalistic profit driven system of economics. We’ve lived under this system for well over a hundred years. What has changed-IMO-is an attitude of selfishness that is exhibited in today’s response to the virus. It’s all about “me, me, me”. Years ago I can recall growing up during WW2 and watching my mom and our neighbors making tremendous sacrifices for the good of all. I recall my mom driving sick neighbors to clinics and Dr’s offices so we all could save on gas. I recall a “victory garden” where all the neighbors pitched in and planted veggies that everyone shared. Not that long ago I recall a President saying “ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country”. Now, that has been turned on its head. It’s all about “free will”-meaning its all about me. My rights are paramount to your rights. Viet Nam was an enormous catalyst and likely changed us forever (“hell no we won’t go”. That had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with pride and a fear of ever spreading communism. (Daniel Ellsberg-Most Dangerous Man gives a good account of how we became so entangled in a no win war going as far back as Eisenhower) The 2008 financial crisis-led to a populist revolt over the bail outs. But at the heart of the matter was Joe Friday’s attitude that his home was like his personal bank and he could gather all the toys he wanted by using it as such.

Of course there are those who will argue this is all a product of Capitalism and Corporations. To me that’s akin to saying it’s a product of the sun rising. You can find a “connection” in anything you set out to believe. What’s striking to me is the simple change from caring about others to caring only about oneself.

Having written all that I do see how “big issues” such as climate change has been impacted and influenced by corporate interests. After all to address the issue squarely would certainly impact investment returns. But my question goes beyond that: how did we become so greedy and unsatisfied with what we do have. Have we always been that way? Maybe we have.

FDR

You guys are all wacko. It seems so evident to me that the big boogeyman (corporate culture) feeds on and uses the unintelligent, uneducated, ignorant, to accomplish their own goals. But they didn’t create that vehicle. To deny this just smells of agenda driven opinions.

wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

zn wrote:

The fact that most people don’t have the slightest idea of how a bill gets passed in congress has nothing to do with Democrats or Corporations. I’s ignorance. The fact that more than half our population refuses to wear masks has nothing to do with democrats or corporations. Its pure selfishness and a lack of care for others. The fact that a huge part of our society still does not believe in man made climate change has nothing to do with the Democratic party or corporations. Its ignorance. The fact that there exists an ever increasing number of people who refuse to vaccinate their children has nothing to do with the Democratic party or corporations. Its ignorance.

At some point we have to stop deflecting our own ignorance by blaming the big targets and look to ourselves and ask -how did we become so ignorant. Otherwise we are trapped into being helpless victims of overpowering forces.

======

Well, I respectfully disagree. Those things all have to do with a Capitalist-System that has failed American Citizens. And yes, the Dems AND Reps ARE that system. Together. They make up the system.

So again, for the umpteenth time — I blame systems that shape individuals.

You just blame individuals.

You will say ‘individuals make up the system’. And i will say, the system shaped the individuals…..

Anyway. Its bad.

w
v

IMO we are far behind our brothers in Europe when it comes to having a keen interest in policies. We have little, if any, interest in exploring the current affairs we are dealt with daily. And its getting worse. Fewer and fewer people actually read anything anymore. My experience is that more and more people really don’t want to discuss substantive issues anymore. When they do it becomes a very shallow discussion. I grew up with a single parent who had no higher education other than high school. But to her it was important for me to be at least curious as to what was going on around us. Of course that was immediately after WW 2 and maybe that was simply “the thing to do”. Anyway I find it hard to fathom how the “system” prevented her from instilling curiosity which let to some form of critical analysis in me. Maybe you are right that “corporations” share some responsibility in this entire matter but I also believe that our troubles can also be blamed on an laissez-faire attitude when it comes to actual learning-and I don’t mean formal education either. Just a genuine interest in how things work. So I ask myself why is that? When I do that I always seem to return to my admittedly “Hitlarian” notion that the wrong people are the ones that are having the most kids.

nittany ram wrote:

I’m sure many people see me as a cynic because of my bleak outlook about the future, but I think I’m just being realistic. There was a recent study that showed that no matter what steps individual people take, it won’t halt climate change. We, as individual citizens, can do nothing about it. It’s like trying to bail out the Atlantic with a bucket. The climate crisis is a product of our corporate system, and it requires a reform of that system to halt it. It’s funny how the system has always put the onus on individual people to change their habits to stop climate change, but it’s a system issue. Only the corporatocracy can change it.

Thus my cynical (realistic) outlook.

Your just touching on the issue. In order for corporatocracy to change its contribution to climate change we need new people in office to make changes to corporate law along with an entire systematic change in our governing policies-whether that be a break in our capitalistic economic system or whatever. But that won’t happen until an intelligent electorate marches to the polls and votes. My point is I don’t see enough intelligent voters to overcome the ignorant. So I ask myself how did so many people become ignorant. I think the answer is above.