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waterfieldParticipant
We are born with the ability to be compassionate, empathic, and empathetic
Of course we are born with the “capacity” . That is what differentiates us from other creatures. My point is we are not born “compassionate”. We learn -hopefully-how to become such with the tools we have been given at birth. And of course if we don’t learn from our parent(s) we are in a vacuum and then we succumb to societal pressures as to “values” be that in the form of governmental values, political values,peer values, whatever. In that respect you and I are likely in agreement. However, if our values are learned from our parents, it doesn’t matter what type of society we live in-we will be less tolerant of the ills caused upon the less fortunate-if in fact those are the values given to us by our parents.
A Ram illustration: My wife tells a story told to her by an engineer she used to work with when she worked on the Lunar Module project at TRW. He told her that he had season tickets to the Rams-Coliseum days. He would take his son-early Sunday game days-and drive through south central L.A.-only for the purpose of pointing out that even though they live in a nice home in Palos Verdes there were thousand of children less fortunate. He did that every Sunday so his son would understand. As I understand it his son is now a very bright lawyer for the ACLU.
As far as being sympathetic to the ills of society we learn it and no form of government-be it capitalism, socialism, communism, will ever teach us that. We either “learn” it or we don’t.
waterfieldParticipant“advanced empathetic structures start to emerge around 4 or 5 years old. ”
You won’t get any argument from me there since that’s not my point. I too studied a lot of this stuff in both undergraduate and graduate school. While the brain “develops” the capacity to learn complex social matters such as compassion, etc it does not incorporate these values organically. That is learned behavior.
My point in all this is a rebuttal to Billy’s point that our society is at the root of our failures. I will give Billy this much: If there is no parental leadership in the formation of values then children will always become victims to societal narcissism. At that point You can overthrow our form of government and replace it with whatever but IMO there will be no change at all in terms of how we treat and respect people less fortunate than ourselves without and until we begin to teach our children what it truly means to be compassionate to other.
Billy is right. We live in a narcissistic society. But IMO its not because of our form of government but far more because that is how our children have either been taught or simply not taught.
I respect Billy and WV-these are the people that should be having children but unfortunately are not.
waterfieldParticipantNot sure I want to debate this but I can tell you from being a parent and a grand parent my experience is that infants are the most narcissistic creatures around. Here is a Stanford study on how infants learn to be selfless and are not born that way.
http://www.parents.com/blogs/baby/2015/01/07/news/are-babies-born-selfish/
waterfieldParticipantI think it’s the presence of society teaching people to compete against each other, relentlessly, by any means necessary.
We’re born with strong instincts for compassion, sharing, caring and empathy toward others.
Oh I don’t think we’re born with compassion, sharing, caring and empathy to others-at all Billy Babies are the most selfish living things around. It’s not “instinctual” at all. As infants they are no different than one of a litter of puppies who pushes the others away from the mother’s milk.
We humans learn to be “compassion, sharing, caring, and empathy to others-or we don’t ! And if we don’t I’m not going to blame “society”. It starts and ends with parents. I’m not about to blame society on all our human frailties -to me that’s a cynical excuse for behavior and the sign of a person who simply hates the “society” he lives in and finds it to be the origin of all that is wrong including uncaring adults who have no compassion for others.
The real sadness for me is the number of parents who do not -and often cannot-pass on the basic values of compassion toward others-simply because no one passed them on to them. Which brings me back to full circle and my prime concern-that people that should be having children are not and those that should not are. End of story-for me anyway.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
waterfieldParticipantI think people care about things that personally impact them.
I wonder if people have always been that way. Maybe I’m wrong but it seems to me that somewhere along the way we-as parents-have failed to show and teach our children how important it is to care about others-especially those less fortunate. The real problem as I see it is that parents that actually do this are becoming fewer and fewer. Those that don’t are becoming more and more.
waterfieldParticipantShe may try to just roll out all kinds of wacko shit like Trump has, and get hung up on the illegality of it which could give people enough time to notice what she is doing, and rally to stop it.
Do you really think people care Zooey? Most-if not all -of my Republican friends think the DOE is just some small agency somewhere. To them the big picture is all about lowering taxes-especially on corporations so we can get on with the economy. And these people are not stupid people-uninformed yes-but not stupid. And of course they have long since had no children. They may have grand kids but their education is simply not on their radar. Depressing.
On a good note: the nominee for SC justice, in response to Trump’s bullying the independence of the judiciary, said it was demoralizing and disheartening, to hear the President’s attack.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
waterfieldParticipantOne significant issue between the charter school system and public schools is whether or not charter schools are under the federal mandate when it comes to educating children with special needs. The general rule in these matters is that if you accept federal money you must comply with federal laws that govern public schools. However there are many exceptions to that when it comes to charter schools that are primarily based on a religious orientation-notwithstanding federal money. For instance because allegedly many don’t have the resources they have been allowed to farm out students with disabilities to public schools for the sole purpose of providing the necessary related services to allow the child access to a “reasonable” education. So a parent who is raising a child with special needs may not be able to have their child educated in either a charter school or most certainly a strictly private school. And even if the charter school is required to provide “some” related services to a disabled student it certainly is not of the same kind and quality required by IDEA -the federal mandate for public schools. IDEA=Individuals with Disabilities Educational Act)
And our new Secretary of Education knows absolutely nothing about these overlapping issues and worse the Republicans in congress-with the exception of two women-simply don’t care if she does. For a President to come into office on the premise that its the politicians who have messed up our governance-this is about as political as it can get !!
- This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
waterfieldParticipantMore on DeVos. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-betsy-devos-senate-confirmation-20170207-story.html
Every single Republican who has a child with special needs should not only be alarmed but should now be aware just how low her party has become.
waterfieldParticipantWikipedia on social “cynicism”:
“Social cynicism results from excessively high expectations concerning society, institutions and authorities: unfulfilled expectations leads to disillusionment, which releases feelings of disappointment and betrayal.[9]
In organizations, cynicism manifests itself as a general or specific attitude, characterized by frustration, hopelessness, disillusionment and distrust in regard to economic or governmental organizations, managers and/or other aspects of work.”
After this election I’m trying my best to avoid being so cynical. However, reading you and Zooey, and your all is lost posts, I’m having a difficult time. One of the hopeful signs I see-at least right now-is a more active role from progressives-primarily young people. Whether this pushes the right further to the right remains to be seen.
“Newton’s first law states that every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force. … The third law states that for every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction.IMO the Sanders people will now actually get out and vote”. Let’s all hope so.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
waterfieldParticipantMaybe the guy simply does not know how important the Pine Gap Satellite Control Center and the Naval Communications Station at North West Cape are to our national defense. If he does not-God help us. These (and no doubt a couple of others that we without security clearances do not know exist) are critical, and many Australians already don’t like them because they make their country a nuclear target. I’m pretty sure that’s why three senators rushed to call the Australian ambassador to reassure him we’re still friends.
waterfieldParticipant“I didn’t say anything about critical thinking, and I’m not talking about the American People, anyway.”
You didn’t but I most certainly did. The point is that there will be no impeachment unless some catastrophic horror occurs. Nevertheless the “people” can throw the guy out of office in 4 years. Populism is still alive and well in this country-as we have just witnessed.
waterfieldParticipantI only hope that half of what you say would occur Zooey. But I have no faith in people doing anything resembling critical thinking. Most people I know want uncomplicated answers to what they see as uncomplicated problems. No one seems to have an attention span to read anything of substance. Whether that’s due to television, internet, twitter, what have you.
I hate myself for becoming the type of person I really dislike-a cynic.
waterfieldParticipantIs Gurley responsible for his failure this year ? Or was it his O line ? Or possibly a combination of stuff?
waterfieldParticipantYeah-that fairly well says how I feel today. Trump doesn’t and didn’t shock me at all. I’ve known-on a lesser level-plenty of Trumps in my life. What did shock me were the voters. I also talk to those who voted for this guy. The level of racism, intolerance, selfishness, anger, lack of empathy, anti women(even from women)and downright lack of intelligence that exists in this country is what truly surprised me. And with people who should be having children are not and those that shouldn’t are it doesn’t argue well for a more intelligent population for the future. Plus, when you consider the older white males are living longer and longer-and as we all become older we become less tolerant-that adds to the mess.
I know the guy did not win the popular vote but the level of his support is very depressing and causes me to also want to stick my head in the sand until its over. But I don’t think we can do that. Somehow someway we’ve got to raise the level of critical analysis in this country or else there will be a “majority” of people voting for him and those like him. How to do that is the real mystery to me. I don’t know how other than education and parenting-but so far that isn’t doing very well.
January 22, 2017 at 6:18 pm in reply to: Anybody's wife, daughter, girlfriend, etc march today? #64133waterfieldParticipantThird, we weren’t discussing the marches anyway
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I opened this thread about the marches. I simply added that the women accompanying my wife were all smart and from all sorts of political backgrounds. I don’t recall writing anything about a “war”. Maybe my post wasn’t relevant to your discussions with BT but I thought it was relevant to the subject of the thread I started namely women we know that went to the marches.I guess I don’t understand why the attack by you. Oh well/
- This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by waterfield.
January 22, 2017 at 12:06 pm in reply to: Anybody's wife, daughter, girlfriend, etc march today? #64092waterfieldParticipantI’m not smart enough to understand the argument over “class” that you two are waging. But I know the people that went with my wife cover the entire political spectrum. The common denominators were they are women and they are smart.
waterfieldParticipantHaven’t heard about your dog(s) in a while W. You still got dogs?
w
Yep. Still have my black and white “Pepper” a Springer Spaniel. She’s 6 yrs old and just wants to run 24 hrs a day. But just about lost her a couple of weeks back. We were snowed in at a cabin above Lake Tahoe and she went out to run in some very deep powder. It was in the middle of the night and she disappeared. Turns out she sank in about 4 ft of powder and was literally swimming in it trying to find a foothold. I had to go our and find her and then lay down and pull her out of the snow.
waterfieldParticipantShe had absolutely no knowledge and or understanding of what Franken was talking about regarding the difference between proficiency vs growth. That is a huge part of testing today and one might expect the secretary of education would at least have an idea that it is an issue.
waterfieldParticipantThe “it was warmer millions of years ago” is a myth.
December 11, 2016 at 3:45 pm in reply to: Sandy Hook Truther Arrested for Threatening to Kill Parent of Murdered Child #60703waterfieldParticipantI agree with your post-a lot! I know people that are friends but “I’ve given up discussing this stuff because of their partisanship polarization. And I’m just as sure they have given up on me for the same reason. So I ask : whatever happened to discourse. I do have a theory: We’ve been taught to take this stuff personally. When that happens there is no backing down because our own core is under attack. Like people over identifying with their favorite football team.
Wish it were not so.
December 9, 2016 at 5:19 pm in reply to: Sanders Nailed It On Identity Politics & Inequality & the MSM missed the point #60629waterfieldParticipantThis has nothing to do with the article but to me as long as those that should be having children are not and those that should not be are there is really not much hope for any progressive movement-be it Sanders, Stein, Warren, or Hopalong Cassidy. I am shocked at the number of ignorant, racist,hateful and yes “deplorable” people that are part of this country. Unfortunately, I think their numbers are growing.
waterfieldParticipantOh I’m sure there are plenty of Trump voters who looked at the issues you listed and believed as you do. I do not doubt that one minute. But I also believe a huge population of rural older white males who fall right into the category I described. As far as “presuming to know how people vote” I plead guilty to that with one caveat-its my “opinion” .
waterfieldParticipant2 songs: “So Long Marianne” and of course his signature “Suzanne.”
But I am a hopeless romantic. I suspect your favorite could be “Everybody Knows” It’s also one of mine.
waterfieldParticipantBilly: Here’s an interesting piece from George Skelton in today’s L.A.Times you might “enjoy” -if that’s the right word today.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-sac-skelton-election-post-mortem-20161110-story.html
waterfieldParticipantI don’t mind if its politics by algorithm as long as its used by a candidate I think is better suited than the other guys. Campaign machinery and demographic targeting has always been part of a general election. But I’m in no mood to begin any type of argument over this election. Been doing that for a couple of years and I’m tired. I will say that I agree with parts and don’t agree with other stuff in the article. I do think we need to revisit the electoral college issue given the reason for it being part of our Constitution simply no longer exist. Would I feel that way if my chosen candidate lost the popular vote and won the electoral “college” vote? Probably not.
waterfieldParticipantI’ve always thought that whatever it is that has made the uneducated white males so unhappy and full of what I see as hate is a complicated set of issues -not the least of which is the darkening face of America and a rapid change in our cultural and sociological values. But because it takes work to look at what the causes and answers might be most uneducated whites look for the most simple of answers and also look to others to blame besides themselves. And of course the biggest and easiest target is the government itself. Hence the overturn and throw em all out philosophy no matter what kind of creep carries the sword.
waterfieldParticipantCouldn’t agree with you more Billy. I doubt it would have really made a difference. But I do think it is a speech that young adolescents should watch. I hope my 12 yr old grandson can see it. Your right-the connection was there. What I’m most afraid of is that this could lead toward people becoming more and more isolated and hopeless and not wanting to participate in our process of governance-much like the post Kennedy assassination. Our young people are really are only hope to overcome the power of the uneducated white rural vote-who simply want to shatter the system and return to the 50s.
waterfieldParticipantLet me ask you this: assuming you just became of voting age and were new to the political issues important to this election and you wanted to learn about the issues and came to WV for suggestions on how to prepare to make an intelligent vote. What would be your advice?
waterfieldParticipantI’ve been invited to the KC preseason game which I think is next week. ..
I was at the last Anaheim game with my son and about 11 other people there. Crickets !
What the heck is a “democratized work-force”? You mean a boss couldn’t tell a worker: “you know Mr. Smith this is not a democracy here. You do have a choice in the matter. You can follow our rules or you can go to work some place else.”
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It dont matter what it means, since it aint gonna happen….There’s more than one way to organize work. Corporate-capitalism is just one way. There’s others. blah blahLast game at Anaheim, must have been the Washington game, in 94. December 24. Rams went 4-12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Los_Angeles_Rams_season25,705 in attendance.
Rams lost 24 to 21. Ellard had 81 yards.
What did you think of the move to St.Louis back then? What were your thoughts.
w
vIt was the Redskin game. Of the 25,000 plus there 24,000 were Redskin fans. That was the first game I saw Issac Bruce in person. He was not a starter that season. I recall vividly the last play of the Los Angeles Rams-I think. Chris Miller scrambling around and finally running out of bounds.
The move to St. Louis. Well initially I was devastated since I had worked on the Save the Rams Committee along with Steinberg, etc. But the attendance had really sucked and people were so down on the organization I eventually thought the move to any place would be good. And when I attended the first game I knew they had found a “home”. The streets were filled with all kinds of Ram signs and every restaurant we went into had lots of Ram stuff on the walls, etc. We went back a few times to the Edward Jones site and truly enjoyed St. Louis. A great city with lots of tremendous restaurants and on one trip the biggest blues festival I ever went to. So it was really fun to go to a game where by far most people there were rooting for the Rams Not so in Anaheim. Hopefully things will be different this time here.
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Well do you think Georgia intentionally sabotaged the team/roster
to pave the way for the move? Do you think thats an owners prerogative?…they should show that last play of the Washington game
during pregame of the first game.w
v“Well do you think Georgia intentionally sabotaged the team/roster
to pave the way for the move? Do you think thats an owners prerogative?”That was my thinking but more focused on Shaw suggesting same. There actually was a lawsuit filed under a fraud theory from a group of season ticket holders who alleged the team had represented it would be very competitive in the draft and acquisition of players, etc. It was thrown out of court. So who knows. I do think there is a certain trust in the community that an owner would violate by intentionally running a team down. Illegal-only in the sense that the NFL could take punitive measures against any of its members.
waterfieldParticipantI’ve been invited to the KC preseason game which I think is next week. ..
I was at the last Anaheim game with my son and about 11 other people there. Crickets !
What the heck is a “democratized work-force”? You mean a boss couldn’t tell a worker: “you know Mr. Smith this is not a democracy here. You do have a choice in the matter. You can follow our rules or you can go to work some place else.”
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It dont matter what it means, since it aint gonna happen….There’s more than one way to organize work. Corporate-capitalism is just one way. There’s others. blah blahLast game at Anaheim, must have been the Washington game, in 94. December 24. Rams went 4-12.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Los_Angeles_Rams_season25,705 in attendance.
Rams lost 24 to 21. Ellard had 81 yards.
What did you think of the move to St.Louis back then? What were your thoughts.
w
vIt was the Redskin game. Of the 25,000 plus there 24,000 were Redskin fans. That was the first game I saw Issac Bruce in person. He was not a starter that season. I recall vividly the last play of the Los Angeles Rams-I think. Chris Miller scrambling around and finally running out of bounds.
The move to St. Louis. Well initially I was devastated since I had worked on the Save the Rams Committee along with Steinberg, etc. But the attendance had really sucked and people were so down on the organization I eventually thought the move to any place would be good. And when I attended the first game I knew they had found a “home”. The streets were filled with all kinds of Ram signs and every restaurant we went into had lots of Ram stuff on the walls, etc. We went back a few times to the Edward Jones site and truly enjoyed St. Louis. A great city with lots of tremendous restaurants and on one trip the biggest blues festival I ever went to. So it was really fun to go to a game where by far most people there were rooting for the Rams Not so in Anaheim. Hopefully things will be different this time here.
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