When I really think about it, I really think it’s both, like I said to Billy in another thread.

I think Clinton and the DNC and the media really colluded to elevate Trump and Cruz in a concerted effort to hand the election to Clinton.

At some point, AFTER Trump had been given $2B in free media, I think the Russians saw they could possibly install someone friendly to them.

So, I don’t believe that this was all part of some master plan on Russia’s part. I do think it’s entirely possible after Trump got beyond the DNC and the media’s control that the Russians very likely took advantage of an opportunity to put someone in the White House much more friendly to them than Clinton.

But, as Herschel notes, reprinting what the CIA gives the media, just because they aren’t Trump doesn’t mean it’s reliable. Requires doing the work which is why I keep saying that journalists are only doing actual journalism part time except in rare instances.

Well, yeah, we disagree.

And the upside is that the piece of shit corporate Dems have very little sway right now.

The progressive movement actually has a chance to be part of a real resistance that can penetrate for the first time in 40 years.

It’s unfortunate as hell, that requires someone as destructive as Trump.

But we could have Shitnado hit and then mobilize to clean up after the disaster or we could continue the slow, immoral decline (Obama’s drone program, neoliberalism, mass incarceration, etc) while most of the citizenry and most of the press slept.

It’s arguable that 8 years of Clinton’s climate acceptance would be more damaging than four years of Trump’s climate denial followed by hopefully someone like Tulsi Gabbard who would focus on innovating on green/renewable energy.

Lastly, Trump’s ego is so dammed unstable that he succumbs to public pressure. He already has on numerous issues. When was the last time Clinton gave a shit about anything anyone said???

Not defending Trump, just pointing out that his weaknesses can be used against him.

Hahahaha

We can barely get reporters to COVER actual movements and marches, let alone “riots”

Well, they’d cover riots because…property damage.

I swear, if 5 MILLION people peacefully and silently marched on Washington. No signs, but with one purpose. And there were ancillary marches in other cities across the globe, but 5 MILLION in DC…

And ONE naked photogenic idiot was involved in a car chase with police…

The media would cover the car chase.

Very true.

And part of moving on is not repeating the mistake.

It’s not enough to “just” say that Clinton’s failed neoliberal economic policies doomed her or that she relied too much on access and privilege as part of the Establishment to intone in word and tone a sense of entitlement. Rather, it was the DLC’s purposeful abandonment of those without money for those with… essentially taking up arms in a class war they were determined to win…

That provided the fertile ground for others to divide and conquer along any number of lines…

So any number of bad actors can come in and feign taking the high ground while really doing despicable things and because the ground had been ceded, those who left…not just willingly, but purposefully…”we’re leaving you poor people because we lose being associated with you. So, we’re going to go get the corporate money so we can win. Not “we” like you and me, “we”, but “we” the Party and a different section of America that we’ll carve out that actually doesn’t really know or care about you…” It becomes extraordinarily difficult for those who abandoned the poor, the family farmer, the rural folks… to be able to swoop in before an election and say anything about the other guys, even if they are telling the truth about them acting badly, and have it have any meaningful effect.

Abandoned is abandoned. People may not be rocket scientists, but they get something as simple as that.

It’s not just race.

My child is transgender and it’s happening between binary and non-binary trans people.

With the Women’s March, there was some discord over all of the “pussy” hats being associated with “Women” because Transgender women don’t necessarily have pussies or wombs (I’ve heard the hats represent both or either). I told my child that I thought the way forward was not to buy into division, but work for inclusion and bring more power through combined purpose.

So, these bad actors will seek any possible avenue for division and it’s gross and unfortunate.

I just really, really want to see the DLC’s influence buried once and for all, even if we see the rise of a Progressive party. For the first time in a while, I find myself in an advocacy role, even if it’s advocating for the death of something (same with trickle down economics, for example…)

As for Jordan Peele, that dude’s got all 5 tools as they say in baseball. That looks like the first horror film in awhile I’ll see. On cable, but still. Looks really good and he’s very smart.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Mackeyser.

Cool. Gonna have to follow all of them!

Fair enough.

Well, the young man’s ignorance wasn’t surprising, not the fallacies nor the fears. That said, the reason those fallacies and fears found fertile ground was explicitly because the DLC led DNC abandoned the working class, the family farmer and the poor.

This young man’s revelations weren’t new. We’ve heard various strains of it since the Tea Party and before.

What’s frustrating is that the author treats this young man’s output as original, new or revelatory.

Good God. Seriously with this shit? Is he being serious that we need to take human beings’ fears and concerns regarding their economic security as a real concern, even if the vectors for some of the concerns are fallacious?

Maybe it’s me that doesn’t get it.

Cuz I keep reading variations of the same things and then keep reading about each time, how people are struck with these new insights.

Yeah…maybe it’s me. I dunno.

I dunno. With interest rates doing what they’re doing, you’re gonna be better off renting..

Just saying…

As for this lack of Clinton critique… I don’t particularly care to get into the semantics of “extravagantly corrupt”. I mean that’s really a bunch of pedantic masturbation meant to distract people who might otherwise be thoughtful and mindful about actual policies and processes of government.

However, there were REAL issues that were cause for genuine concern beyond the untenability of the gross expansion of her belligerent embrace of global neoliberalism including using the US Military to further its ends.

What I’m talking about in the near term is the regime change in Syria which would have started with the No-Fly zone. Sorry, but that would have been asking to engage in a proxy shooting war with the Russians if not an actual shooting war with them.

And let’s be clear. Much like the Chinese have NEVER not supported a satellite nation engaged in conflicts with the West, be it North Korea or North Vietnam, there is NO WAY the Russians were going to give up their ONLY deep water port which includes a Sub base in the Med. That wasn’t going to happen.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn’t understand the logistical importance of Sea Bases. There’s a REASON that the US has put them all around the world and fought to keep them open.

I can’t say this in strongly enough terms; Clinton was NOT simply a flawed candidate because she felt entitled to the job and she clung to harmful neoliberal economic policies. Her ACTIVE belief in regime change undermined the safety of US citizens at home and abroad.

So… while I think Donald Trump is a disaster and will be an ongoing disaster (I mean in the literal sense…like lives lost…wreckage physical and emotional…enduring harm to economy, etc), I do NOT by any means think Clinton would have been LESS of a disaster.

The difference would have been setting the front lawn and the living room on fire versus the back yard and the kitchen….without any means of putting out the fire…

It’s our fault as citizens we got to this point.

The ONE upside to this is that with Trump, the press…due to Trump being so pathological about his persona that he has to be the biggest and best at everything that he and his minions have to engage in pathological lying and outright propaganda to such a degree that incredulity set in EVEN TO CORPORATE SOCK PUPPETS LIKE CHUCK TODD… the press is beginning to embrace elements of becoming the fourth estate.

Not actually BEING the fourth estate, mind you, because…they’re still corporate hacks and sellouts and checks still need to be cashed, PEOPLE!!! But, the lies are so blatant, so apparent, so belligerent that the press can be total sellouts AND do some actual journalism on the side.

I can GUARANTEE that if Clinton had been elected, short of telling whopping lies about crowd size, she’d be engaging in much the same kind of corporate sellout neoliberal bullshit as well as neocon foreign policy bullshit like the no-fly zone over Syria and bringing us closer to war with Russia and the press would be rolled over on to their backs like a puppy waiting to have its belly rubbed. And while the cabinet might look like a Benetton ad, it’d still be full of policy sellouts who would engage in similar harm.

Although, that might change. Trump’s appointees might really want to be the best at everything including being the best at being the worst. Pretty sure Clinton wouldn’t have appointed someone like Betsy DeVos or Rick Perry. I’ll give her that. Rick Perry as head of the DoE. I’m thinking in order to be in charge of our nuclear stockpiles…you should be able to pronounce “nuclear” correctly.

I’m all for criticizing Trump on point. I only take breaks for health reasons. He does and will deserve every last bit of criticism he gets from me and most.

But man, the idea that anyone can look with a wistful eye towards Hillary Clinton just makes me ill.

Sorry, they both sucked EQUALLY badly and BOTH would have harmed real people in real and tangible ways. Just because they’re different groups doesn’t change the real harm.

At least when the Republicans lost, they had an “autopsy”. The Dems STILL DON’T FUCKING GET IT that neoliberalism is the cause, not just in losing the Presidency, but nearly 1000 government positions since 2008.

Here’s a scary thought… The Republicans are very close to capturing enough state houses to start passing Constitutional Amendments and having a rapid ratification process…. things like making gay marriage illegal UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

Try undoing that one. And that’s not a function of “if we only had Hillary”…

I know you guys aren’t Hillary supporters, but dammit, it’s time to shitcan any thought of any corporate Dem. We’re here. It’s now. Death to the DLC. Death to the corporate DNC.

Now…if they want to become Berniecrats or go younger with Tulsi Gabbard… that’s a start. But honestly, the two things that get me going are 1) Trump’s BS 2) Clinton apologists

Lastly, there’s a lawsuit before the FEC to change the Debate rules to allow for an independent to be on the final debate stage. Doesn’t change local, state or federal office below President…but it’s a start…

Anyone who thinks this is a sexist thing, I think Trump’s suits are tailored horribly and he’s a mess, too. It’s just harder for men in their more standardized “uniform” to differentiate themselves in any way, better or worse.

But yeah. Dude probably spends what I paid for my house on a few suits and the tailoring and he still looks like someone in a borrowed suit.

I think there is room for multiple bad actors.

When I heard the tape of Hillary laughing about how she dismantled a 12 year old rape victim while defending a rapist while a young lawyer… um… sorry. THAT wasn’t fucking lawyering. THAT was character on display. There are plenty of defense lawyers who defend rapists and even suppress their gag reflex and challenge rape victims…, but subsequently LAUGH about dismantling a 12 year old girl who’d been raped? What the actual fuck was that?

If that’s not psychosis, what is it?

If her on tape insisting that the only way she’d support an election in 2006 in Palestine is if it were fixed and if SHE could choose who would win.

If that’s not sociopathic, what is?

Do you not know her history?

When Bill was accused of VIOLENTLY raping Juanita Brodderick, SHE took lead in deposing her…. I have to hold my head to not get dizzy from all the shaking…

And all the Clinton apologists INSISTED that it was okay for Bill to wave his finger at the complaint MSM that all this was conspiratorial and “why would he risk getting impeached over a tryst?” Well…and THEN they found the semen…

It wasn’t conspiratorial. He DID have sex with…that woman…Ms. Lewinski. He did lie directly to people’s faces and risk getting impeached over a tryst.

Why, Billy, would you give them any benefit of the doubt? For ANYTHING???

She makes 1000% profit on an investment that forensic examiners have said is statistically impossible…and SHE doesn’t go to jail NOT because she’s not guilty, but because her broker refuses to testify against her. And that’s a running theme.

The only thing my mind is made up about is that I put NOTHING past the ambition of the Clintons, that includes murder.

Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile strike the day of hearings and had innocent people die just to mitigate some of his bad news. Do I think they’re past murdering ONE person? Are you kidding? Not remotely are they past it.

But again, I’ve retreated a bit and said that this very well have been a bit of Murder on the Orient Express where there are multiple culprits.

The Russians wouldn’t have had a puppet to play against Clinton if Clinton hadn’t elevated Trump in the first place. That’s fact.

And that meeting DID happen. I’m super busy today, but google it. If I have to, I’ll find it. I believe the meeting happened in February, but it may have been earlier.

I’m serious about this. We can’t just say that political assassination happen everywhere, but here.

And if they DO happen here, WHICH ONES are they? Cuz if you ask, every single death is denied as not possible, which by deductive reasoning and logic is impossible.

Considering that Trump is in violation of his GSA lease… on day one…

That he is in violation of the Emoluments clause of the Constitution…on day one…

Wait…I’m gonna stop there. This list could get long, but any incoming President that’s grossly and belligerently in violation of the Constitution?

See, that’s why it’s so hard to have a conversation…because there’s an inherent hypocrisy. Most of the lefties here ALSO slammed Hillary Clinton for things like the Clinton Global Initiative’s Pay to Play access model (and surprise, surprise…with her not being President or in Congress or Secretary of State… it’s closing), so there wasn’t that Democratic hypocrisy when it comes to criticizing Trump.

But…in one breath we hear from conservative voices NOTHING about Constitutional violations when it comes to Trump…BUT..the Constitution will become SACROSANCT when it comes to appoint a Supreme Court Justice.

It’s pure hypocrisy. It’s cafeteria Constitutional observance and there’s no integrity in it.

So…no. There’s absolutely not going to be any listening to “Obama was the worst” horseshit… cuz that’s what it is.

Andrew Jackson openly defied Congress. Clinton was impeached and Nixon left office before being thrown out due to clear high crimes. Trump is currently in violation of the Emoluments clause and in violation of his GSA lease on his Trump Washington Hotel…and that’s just for starters.

Principle wouldn’t ignore the gross violations.

Partisanship would misdirect to Obama…Hillary…etc.

But the principle still stands. And let’s be clear.

Donald J. Trump is in violation of the US Constitution.

Period. Doesn’t matter what you or anyone says about past presidents. Now… based on principle, are we going to get a statement about how the Oath of Office matters?

I suppose there’s room for conversation if principle is paramount, but beyond that? Not really.

Cuz, honestly? After $5 BILLION dollars of free press and the saturation to excuses for Trump to the point of being inculcated by them… I’m done and he’s been in office for one day.

I’ve been banging the drum for principle as long as these guys know me.

What Trump is doing with his businesses NOW, specifically his hotel businesses is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. As in actually unconstitutional, not bogus unconstitutional that gets bandied about in careless political discourse.

I just don’t believe in coincidence.

It’s more than likely that specifically he was the person responsible in part or en toto for the dissemination of the emails to Wikileaks.

The ONLY reason the “hacking” narrative can continue to live on is because he’s dead.

If he was alive, ONE interview…just ONE statement to ONE reporter would kill all of that dead, especially if he were to appear on camera. Further, it would only add to the indictment of the current DNC.

So, no, it’s not shitting where one eats. It’s more accurately called tying up loose ends.

Something the Clintons are extraordinarily adept at.

I mean, they ARE guilty of several things including Hillary with insider trading and both of them with the land deal. However, the one talent that they have that I honestly have never seen anyone else possess is having other people be willing to go to jail for them. If ANY of a number of people would have rolled on the Clintons in a number of situations…even one time… the Clintons, individually or jointly would have gone to jail.

But, they didn’t. Now, is it because their political opponents end up dead as so many in Arkansas allege and have alleged for decades? Is it because they are like Lannisters and always pay their debts? A combination of both?

I’m not exactly sure.

I AM sure that they are NOT innocent.

Clinton DID subvert democracy, DID use the MSM to elevate Donald Trump because she thought he’d be the easiest to beat (so, we can exchange “Thanks Obama to Thanks Hillary”) and so forth…

And the list of political…shall we say adversaries…of the Clintons who are dead is scary long. Worse, it involves plane crashes, etc.

Let’s not act like political assassinations ONLY happen in banana republics and in Putin’s Russia. That would be naive.

Occam’s razor. The ONLY thing that stood in the way of the complete dismantling of the DNC and the Clinton machine, that totally validated the emails AND would give voice and context to the malfeasance… ended up murdered prior to being able to talk with anyone…and to no one’s surprise, it’s an unsolved murder.

Shitting where you eat would be if they killed him in their home or were personally involved. I’m sure there was enough distance that Robert Ludlum would be impressed. Not the point.

The point is that the Clinton emails were leaked by Clinton personnel. And the likely leaker was murdered.

The ONLY people with motive…were Clinton personnel and high level DNC staff with a vested interest in keeping out the progressive wing and maintaining the corporate status quo. “Geld uber alles” (money above all) should be the DNC motto…

Apparently a former British diplomat came forward and has said on the record that he received the emails from a disgruntled former Clinton staffer with legal access to the emails.

The former diplomat did so insofar as he had a working relationship with Wikileaks and Assange.

But, I guess it’s a pretty big deal to go on the record.

Doesn’t mean the Russians didn’t hack the RNC and DNC. As a matter of fact, I’d wager they did.

But, this may be a case like Murder on the Orient Express… except in this case we know one responsible party was from inside the Clinton campaign and that Wikileaks saying they haven’t used hacked emails seems true.

Doesn’t have to mean the hacking is untrue.

Yes, I posted that.

And Jill Stein made enough of her case and Hillary showed herself to be a soulless, lying, warmongering candidate that I couldn’t support even when she was running against Trump.

I mean, I’m not ignorant of the politics, I just hate them. I realize that the Supreme Court is screwed (sorry, Scalia was among the worst jurists of the 20th century, right up there with the Oliver Wendell Holmes (see Buck v Bell if you have any questions…forced sterilization?), Clarence Thomas and John Roberts)

I took the time to really listen and get to know each of the candidates (as much anyone could know Trump). And Clinton horrified me. Any notion that she was the lesser of two evils was lost on me by May, iirc. In February, Clinton being the LEV may have still been a thing, but not by May. Pretty sure by May or even April when all the shenanigans were being pulled, I was going to vote my conscience.

And I voted for Stein in a battleground state without a moment’s hesitation.

And?

The fact that he believes that there’s even the possibility for change for the better…

isn’t just laughable, it’s criminally naive.

And I didn’t get to respond in the closed thread, but no, I NEVER supported Hillary. EVER.

I spent FAR more time critiquing her than Trump, actually.

I supported Sanders, then Jill Stein. Never supported Hillary. Not for a second. She was and is a corporatist, lying, warmongering, lying… did I say lying…fascist. Yeah, I said fascist who doesn’t believe in democracy. The recording of her saying she didn’t support the Palestinian election…unless we had fixed the outcome. That so crossed the line that I don’t know where to begin. It certainly lends more credence to the fixing of the Democratic Primaries as many parties have alleged all across the country. I mean, she did everything she could to to “fix” the outcome including getting Super Delegates prior to announcing and having the DNC Chair be her former campaign chair, etc. When the Vice Chair steps down as a matter of principle…

If anyone needed to know what the Anti-Jimmy Carter looked like… I give you Hillary Clinton. Think she’s gonna dump the pumps and awful suits (that still cost a fortune) and start building homes for the homeless? Or championing clean water?

I could go on, but today’s not the day for hackles to be raised. I’m in too good a mood.

As for Assange, he should stick with non-partisan document release and leave the punditizing to the punditry.