Yawn.

TSRF wrote:

From my POV, the original “Yawn” post was passive aggressive. Why even do that? What did it add structurally to the thread?

When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed. Say something once, why say it again?

Yawn, the re-reprise.

Billy_T wrote:

Isn’t that bound to stir a fight? I think everyone knows where everyone stands. Bnw is entitled to his response. We’re not going to badger him into agreeing with us, and aggression just begets more aggression. Fair enough?

ZN, it wasn’t meant to stir a fight. But I probably should have held fire, and will try to do so going forward. That said, my response to “yawn” was more a result of a build up than that particular word. It’s a response to the sum total of any and all criticism of Trump. I just wish his supporters would deal with the substance of that criticism, and not automatically dismiss it all. I just wish they’d be willing to debate that substance, instead of acting as if it’s not worth discussing — that Trump’s criticism of others is worthy, but not criticism of Trump, etc. etc.

Anyway, I can’t wait until this mess is over. Worst election season since 1968, IMO.

Yawn, the reprise.

Yawn.

Thanks!

No it isn’t economical now. I’ve been to wind farms on three continents and none are economical . It is always a government boondoggle to dupe the easily duped. The maintenance costs are high over time. Nothing compares to coal.

Best Rams free agent signing in decades.

Transportation of crude should be by pipeline.

The duck saving logic is sound. Not so sure the extent of fish kill can be adequately ascertained. Nice thing about professionals is that you can always buy the testimony you need.

Was for TPP and “free” trade. I don’t like it but better than Gingrich.

More fear porn. The issue is big out west where some states have over 50% federal ownership. Those state delegations are vying for more PILT money. No national parks are at stake.

Here’s Where the Federal Government Owns the Most Land

InvaderRam wrote:

bnw wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

Apparently our making good choices for the long term didn’t sit well with those people accustomed to following the carefree spending high expectations in fun keeping up with the Joneses. It is always about choices.

But all choices are made within a certain environment and environmental conditions, with certain natural boundaries, due to the luck of the draw. All choices are made on foundations that range from impoverished to obscenely wealthy. All choices are made within environments that help or hinder or just outright stop those choices from taken effect.

Some folks are born with wings, others with chains, and everything in between.

The problem is, as ZN mentions, when we think we achieve X because we make “the right choices,” while others “fail” because they made the wrong ones. It’s usually the case that they made really, really good choices too, but their environments, their birth lottery, put them so far back behind the eight ball, it didn’t matter.

Again, it’s cool to be proud of your choices. But why denigrate others for not fitting into your notions of “success”? Or for fitting into your notions of “failure”? Why assume everyone has an equal shot in this country, when that’s clearly not the case? Or that they didn’t make really good choices too?

I don’t denigrate others for their choices. I simply shouldn’t be forced to pay for their mistakes.

but the argument is that they didn’t necessarily make a mistake. but that they were born into a situation where they weren’t afforded the same opportunities that others were.

i don’t see that as paying someone for their mistakes. rather it’s rewarding someone for their hard work despite not having advantages that others did have.

i mean take a guy who gets into school but through hard work but will have to take out loans which he will be forces to pay for much of his life vs another guy who gets into that same school only because his dad went to that school. doesn’t necessarily appreciate that he got into that school and skates by graduating from college with no worries about paying off debt. he’ll get that nice house inherited from his dad. those nice assets with which he can grow his wealth even more.

why not reward that guy for his hard work.

i know. tough shit. life isn’t fair. but hey. it’s nice to think about a world where hard work is rewarded.

OK but what about me and the very very many other people like me who made the choice to not get into debt that couldn’t be repaid? What about those of us that did so by not going to our dream school? By not going for our dream degree? Tough shit? Thats what I read from you. Why should people like me accept the burden? Everywhere I turn theres people expecting others to pay for their own mistakes.

Billy_T wrote:

Apparently our making good choices for the long term didn’t sit well with those people accustomed to following the carefree spending high expectations in fun keeping up with the Joneses. It is always about choices.

But all choices are made within a certain environment and environmental conditions, with certain natural boundaries, due to the luck of the draw. All choices are made on foundations that range from impoverished to obscenely wealthy. All choices are made within environments that help or hinder or just outright stop those choices from taken effect.

Some folks are born with wings, others with chains, and everything in between.

The problem is, as ZN mentions, when we think we achieve X because we make “the right choices,” while others “fail” because they made the wrong ones. It’s usually the case that they made really, really good choices too, but their environments, their birth lottery, put them so far back behind the eight ball, it didn’t matter.

Again, it’s cool to be proud of your choices. But why denigrate others for not fitting into your notions of “success”? Or for fitting into your notions of “failure”? Why assume everyone has an equal shot in this country, when that’s clearly not the case? Or that they didn’t make really good choices too?

I don’t denigrate others for their choices. I simply shouldn’t be forced to pay for their mistakes.

zn wrote:

We parlayed that hard work (as opposed to good fortune- or privilege) into two fully paid college educations for our daughters- one private, one public.

It’s not just hard work, it was opportunities…presented by others, and by institutions. It honestly is a myth that we do all these things ourselves. So deep a myth that some of us are incapable of looking things in the eye.

Yeah you have to work hard though there are those who do and don’t get anywhere. And it’s a credit to those who do, and all, but then if you don’t have an institutional set of provided opportunities and inherited background advantages, there’s nowhere to go and no way to get there.

What I hear constantly in this I made choices, I did right rhetoric we hear all the time is an effort to claim the disadvantaged are disadvantaged because it’s their own fault. In essence that always amounts to “socialism for me, capitalism for you.” Without recognizing that’s what it is.

Yet virtually everyone who tells me they made it on their own is always just neglecting the ways in which they were sponsored, helped, aided, supported by policies at the government level, and so on. There’s a blindness to that stuff. About half of what I hear in those stories is the rightful pride, and then the other half of what I hear in those stories is the blindness to how policies and specific kinds of opportunies helped them. They then invariably don’t realize those opportunities are not universal. Many of us are set up to benefit from them. Many not.

No one makes it on their own. Or it’s so rare as to be discountable. Everyone takes useful advantage of policies and institutions set up to help them.

Like no one in this thread invented the lower downpayment, longterm mortgage and the tax breaks that come with it. That was a deliberate “give away” at the national level. That’s just one example among others.

You act as if life has guarantees which it doesn’t. You do your best and make reasonable choices and with some luck you’re good. Someone earlier mentioned parents in the home and I agree. I had parents growing up. That is where the wealth and privilege ended. Theres no pot of cash waiting for me. The nursing home will get whatever assets are left. There was no career via the family greasing the skids for me either. I made my way. I lived within my means. I married a woman who believes the same. We eloped, no honeymoon, put off children until we had 50% equity in our home, didn’t take a serious vacation on our dime until we were well into our 40s. We were the couple that weren’t supposed to make it. Apparently our making good choices for the long term didn’t sit well with those people accustomed to following the carefree spending high expectations in fun keeping up with the Joneses. It is always about choices.

Billy_T wrote:

Cartoon of a cartoon? Either you can afford the education or you can’t. Real world difficulties result from never understanding that simple concept.

Yes, cartoon of a cartoon. Your description of these mythical students who, unlike you, lack all connection to reality, have their heads permanently in the clouds, and selfishly choose “useless” degrees, because they don’t know what it means to be responsible for oneself — again, unlike you.

Not necessarily useless degrees. Simply a degree from a school so expensive they couldn’t afford to repay the debt.

Billy_T wrote:

Typical short sighted self absorbed liberal. Too bad you’re incapable of reading into my post what I sacrificed by living within my means. I could have had the ivy league diploma. I could also have majored in what was absolute fun for me. However in good conscience I couldn’t do either since my family couldn’t gift me that nor would I want them to take on the responsibility of co-signing a student loan. I accepted one credit card offer in college. It was a fuel company card that was accepted throughout the midwest and south. I used it to commute 600 miles per week between St. Louis and Rolla, MO. Usually put a diet pepsi on it too. Always paid it off each month. I chose to live within my means. That is what an honorable person does.

Bnw, again, stop with the personal attacks. I’m trying very, very hard not to respond in kind, and you’re making that more and more difficult by the day. Just stop it.

Nothing you say in your post has anything whatsoever to do with the logic of paying a tiny, tiny bit in taxes as an investment in the betterment of society. And your description of students is nothing more than abstract generalization, without any concrete foundation. It strikes me as a cartoon of a cartoon. From personal experience as a student in three different decades — I have two degrees and a bit toward an MFA — I never saw anyone who resembled that cartoon. And my experience also involved paying my own way, working full time while going to school, and I’ve paid my three sets of loans off in full.

I’m more than fine helping others after me who seek to expand their intellectual, cultural and social horizons. It baffles me that anyone would have a problem with this.

Cartoon of a cartoon? Either you can afford the education or you can’t. Real world difficulties result from never understanding that simple concept.