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Billy_TParticipant
Well see also, it’s pretty much enough that he doesn’t condemn it.
Well, you support what you don’t condemn. By allowing the white supremacists to feel empowered by his rhetoric he is supporting their cause whether that was his original intention or not. (It was). Whether he believes everything the white supremacists believe may be open to debate, but they share a common goal. They have the same vision regarding what this country should look like.
The movie “Conspiracy” was an excellent film that was based on a transcript of a meeting that German officials had to discuss how to implement Hitler’s “Final Solution”. The attendees’ copies of the transcripts were supposed to be destroyed but the Allies found one after Germany fell.
The belief that ‘the Jew’ was inferior was held by most of the attendees but not all. However, they all shared the conviction that ‘the Jew’ had to be eliminated, whatever the means. That is what mattered.
An important article on Hitler’s rise and how this relates to Trump’s. From a Hitler scholar. It’s worth reading the whole thing:
Against Normalization: The Lesson of the “Munich Post” — By Ron Rosenbaum
Excerpt:
Until the morning after the election I had declined them. While Trump’s crusade had at times been malign, as had his vociferous supporters, he and they did not seem bent on genocide. He did not seem bent on anything but hideous, hurtful simplemindedness — a childishly vindictive buffoon trailing racist followers whose existence he had mainstreamed. When I say followers I’m thinking about the perpetrators of violence against women outlined by New York Magazine who punched women in the face and shouted racist slurs at them. Those supporters. These are the people Trump has dragged into the mainstream, and as my friend Michael Hirschorn pointed out, their hatefulness will no longer find the Obama Justice Department standing in their way.
Bad enough, but genocide is almost by definition beyond comparison with “normal” politics and everyday thuggish behavior, and to compare Trump’s feckless racism and compulsive lying was inevitably to trivialize Hitler’s crime and the victims of genocide.
¤
But after the election, things changed. Now Trump and his minions are in the driver’s seat, attempting to pose as respectable participants in American politics, when their views come out of a playbook written in German. Now is the time for a much closer inspection of the tactics and strategy that brought off this spectacular distortion of American values.
What I want to suggest is an actual comparison with Hitler that deserves thought. It’s what you might call the secret technique, a kind of rhetorical control that both Hitler and Trump used on their opponents, especially the media. And they’re not joking. If you’d received the threatening words and pictures I did during the campaign (one Tweet simply read “I gas Jews”), as did so many Jewish reporters and people of color, the sick bloodthirsty lust to terrify is unmistakably sincere. The playbook is Mein Kampf.
Ron Rosenbaum is the author of The Shakespeare Wars, among other books. LARB published the afterword to his new edition of Explaining Hitler last year.
See also:
Billy_TParticipantI understand he had to limit it to post-WWII in order to talk about “indictable offenses (Nuremberg, etc),” but it’s likely we could take that back to Day One.
What American president didn’t start a totally unnecessary and monstrous war? Who oversaw any actual time of peace? I can’t think of one. If they weren’t expanding the American Empire westward, or eastward, or to the south — not so much to the north — they were overthrowing regimes all over the world, starting overt and covert wars, etc. etc.
I can only think of two wars that could be called “justifiable”: 1812 and WWII. And in both, there were all kinds of war crimes committed by “our side.”
We have a very, very ugly history, obviously. NC, as usual, puts this concisely, etc.
Billy_TParticipantWell i am not convinced he believes any of that white-supremacy or christian stuff. He might, i dunno. But mainly i think he knows how to USE that stuff to build a political-base.
w
vYou say he might not believe that stuff – he’s just saying it to build a political base. But if he doesn’t believe in that stuff, what’s the point of building a political base that believes in that stuff? I mean, he’s trying to create a world where that stuff is the norm, right? Why would he want that if he didn’t believe in it?
If you were trying to build a national leftist political base, what things would you say that you don’t actually believe in order to build that leftist base?
I mentioned this in the thread I started about George Lakoff. I think one thing right-wingers understand oh so well is that “fear of the Other” gets people to vote for “strict Father.” It’s working all over Europe and it worked here in our last election. They chose the Daddy Party over the Mommy party, with the latter being led, for the first time, by an actual mom. In times of great stress and fear of “outlanders,” people seek Daddy, not Mommy.
A huge generalization, I know, but I think it fits to general mass psychology of the moment.
So if a person can convey “toughness” and “aggression” against the Other, people can look past a ton of things that otherwise might sink that candidate. Body language, the repetition of strict father rhetoric — this works.
It just doesn’t matter if the facts say we shouldn’t be afraid of our shadows now. Who knows or cares that the actual numbers of Americans killed by terrorists is so small? From 2001 to 2013 (including 9/11) the total, when we include Americans killed overseas as well, is roughly 3300. Total killed by guns here, with no “terrorist” factor? Roughly 407,000.
There were over 400,000 more gun homicides during that time frame than “terrorist” attacks, but both parties have managed to make “terrorism” issue Number One in the minds of millions.
Trump just took this to a whole new level of lies and hysteria, and has all but immunized himself to factual rebuttals.
It’s time for the left to fight back by completely rejecting all right-wing frames, tossing its language, and mobilizing based on the best possible vision of the future, while ignoring right-wing concerns entirely.
American elections are all about base turnouts now. Revv up the base, via sticking to principles and aggressively promoting that vision, and “the left” can win.
Billy_TParticipantIn The Grand Hotel Abyss, the author talks about the Jewish intellectuals of the Frankfurt School, and how they, early on, battled with their parents, the first or second generation of assimilated Jews in Germany. They rebelled against them for many reasons, but mostly because they thought they had “assimilated” far too much.
A Freudian analysis might make this an Oedipal conflict. A Bloomian one might say it was a battle over “the anxiety of influence.” Either way, they rejected the idea that to be a successful human being — or the unsaid “real man” — meant tremendous success in business, with few other exceptions.
Breaking that down further, there was a lot of talk at the time about the dominant role of the Father in Protestant Christianity, and how this led to capitalism, versus the ancient concept of “Mother Right,” and how that led to (or could lead to) real socialism.
From Stuart Jeffries’ bio (on Eric Fromm, at this point):
“As an adult, Fromm became steeped in the work of the nineteenth-century Swiss Lutheran jurist Johan Jacob Bachofen, whose 1861 book Mother Right and the Origins of Religion provided the first challenge to the prevailing orthodoxy that patriarchal society represented a natural state of affairs, and thereby validated capitalism, oppression and male hegemony, as Fromm’s biographer Lawrence Friedman argues. Reading Bachofen also encouraged Fromm to reflect that the mother-child bond was the root of social life and that in a matriarchal society there was no strife, conflict or even private property, reflections that were decisive for his developing socialist humanism. In Bachofen’s description of matriarchal societies they functioned as what Fromm called ‘primitive socialist democracies,’ in which sociability, generosity, tenderness, religiosity and egalitarianism prevailed.”
- This reply was modified 7 years, 9 months ago by Billy_T.
Billy_TParticipantQuick general comment:
To me, if we can’t radically expand the imaginary of every single kid in America during those formative years, it’s simply never going to happen for most. Not under capitalism. Once they move into the job world and become a cog in the machine, become commodities themselves, in search of other commodities to consume, fight over, fight against, etc. etc. it’s too late. And society has basically committed mass child abuse.
There is no better time to open their minds to the endless possibilities of better worlds, through art, music, literature, philosophy, etc. etc. . . . as we also teach them math, science and critical thinking skills. And all of this can be integrated holistically into teaching how to imagine wildly different forms of Being, and wildly different foundations for Being.
Of course, under capitalism, that’s not allowed. Cuz, if kids actually grew up believing “anything is possible” then they’d reject capitalism outright, and the powers that be know this. Which is why they’re so busy telling kids via all means possible that “anything is possible” within the extremist, soul-crushing and extremely narrow confines of the capitalist system. As long as they paint by the numbers they can do “anything” pre-approved. “Lean in and go for it!! Ye future entrepreneurs (cogs in the machine)!!”
Billy_TParticipantI need to read it closely, but a quick skim makes me think the author is trying to correct current impressions of both men. Boiled down, to bring Morris down to earth a bit more than he’s usually pictured, and to lift Dewey’s eyes upward more than he’s generally seen. In a sense, to make Morris more “pragmatic,” and Dewey more “idealistic” than conventional wisdom would have it.
Obviously, it’s far more complex and complicated than that. But that’s just a quick, snap response.
Thanks for the article.
Billy_TParticipantGood article, WV.
Both Dewey and Morris were amazing thinkers, though I probably lean more toward Morris overall in outlook . . . I think he’d be comfortable calling himself a “libertarian socialist,” which is the closest label to my own views, if I have to take one . . . but he also used just “socialist,” or “communist,” or “anarchist-communist” at times.
Have mentioned the book before, but to me, it’s a must-read for leftists. And it’s short (to help the time-stressed) — too short, in my view, cuz it was excellent and I wanted more. The author’s focus is on the Paris Commune of 1871, which was a profoundly important event for Morris . . . and several other left-anarchist thinkers in the book, especially Elisee Reclus and Petr Kropotkin, along with Morris.
Dewey was an American pragmatist, so I can see him thinking we should educate based on what’s doable here and now, but as the article says, radically expanding our imaginations was key for both men . . .
This passage debunking erroneous definitions of “utopian thinking” is key as well. IMO, leftists are doing the political right’s work for it when they glibly bash that expansion of the imagination, that search for a better formation of society by using “utopian” as a slur. Marx did this at times, too, and he shouldn’t have. It’s a misunderstanding of the project.
Neither Morris nor Dewey ever contended that utopia is an ideal fixed-state society of perfection, or that it could promise unalloyed happiness and a colorless
end to history. On the contrary, utopia is a process the outcomes of which cannot be guaranteed and, therefore, the role, for example, of fate, suffering, and tragedy in human affairs must be taken into account.From this point of view utopian thinking is neither an exercise in futile dreaming nor is it nostalgia for a world or theoretical system that has been lost. Instead, utopian thought aims at what Ruth Levitas refers to as the imaginary reconstitution of society and it is best understood
as method. Thus, utopianism is less concerned at the theoretical level with specific an education
in conceiving alternative modes of life—imagination as hypothesis rather than as the provision of static blueprints.In this respect, an evident experimentalism and
lack of dogmatism marks out their understandings of experience. As approached by Morris and Dewey the utopian process, as a matter of course, acknowledges the
contingent, the prosaic, the tentative, and the provisional in human affairs. In words that I think both Morris and Dewey would admire, utopian experience and education can be said to be crafted from “things with which [we are] familiar, simple things . . . recognizable as the things touched by the hands during the day . . . All
drawn with admirable simplicity and excellent design — all a unity —.” These words express a common attitude that marks their respective approaches to utopianism and utopian education.Billy_TParticipantAccording to most scholars of fascism, there are both left and right influences on fascism as a social movement, and fascism, especially once in power, has historically attacked communism, conservatism and liberalism, attracting support primarily from what in a classical sense is called the “far left” or “extreme left”.
This is one of the reasons why wikipedia has to be read with more than a grain of salt. Cuz political definitions are all too often highly politicized themselves, disputed by angry readers, etc. etc.
It was universally accepted for decades that “fascism” was right-wing. No one disputed this from the 1920s through the 1940s, when fascism actually existed (without hedging), and virtually no one disputed this for the next several decades after the end of WWII. It’s only been in the last couple that the political right has forced revisionism down the throats of people who write about these things.
Fascist parties themselves identified as right-wing back then. Mussolini, Franco and Hitler did. And all neo-fascist parties do today. I marvel at the way in which right-wing whining and playing the refs has worked so well to distort the past.
Billy_TParticipantGood video, WV.
Too many good points to go through. But he nailed the reason why the Dems turned their backs on their own base and chose the “professional” class instead, and that this goes back decades before Clinton . . . Yep. Clinton was probably the worst of the lot of turncoats, and then Obama just solidified the position and made it the new baseline.
A few weeks ago, I had a bizarre discussion with a Dem, who once supported Sanders, btw, so his reaction was surprising. I said, almost in passing, that I hoped once the Dems regained power that they’d rollback the changes the Republicans make while they’re in power. That they would not do what they always do and accept the Republican status quo as the new baseline. He responded by saying they can’t do this, because, Democracy. I said, huh? I tried to get him to flesh this out, but he then went on a rant about my not understanding “nuance.”
Again, “huh?”
The Dems seem to accept the rightward parade as the new baseline, each time they get into power, instead of fighting back with at least equal and opposite fervor. I tell Dems they have to do this, and they keep saying they can’t blah blah blah. They don’t have the votes, blah blah blah. And I respond by reminding them they didn’t have them for Civil Rights and Voting Rights or Medicare or Social Security, either. They worked hard to get them anyway. More blah blah blah in response.
It’s kinda hopeless when supposedly “progressive” Dems keep making excuses for their own party’s cowardice.
It’s just (long past) time to end the duopoly, period, and the economic system that sustains it.
Billy_TParticipantSkip to the twenty minute mark and listen for a few minutes
to him talk about Obamaw
vAlmost there. I watched it from the start. Very good.
Billy_TParticipantI’m not claiming dents in the mainstream. Just that the opposition (the resistance?) is evolving and growing…
———————–
Ok, but that says it all to me. I mean, the Mainstream
controls the future.I always consider the score-card to be measured by looking at the Senate:
Mainstream 99
Opposition 1 (Bernie)w
vWV,
can’t remember who it was, but years ago one of you guys posted an excellent video about how the Dems routinely coopt authentic, genuinely radical grassroots movements and basically kill them. It was really well done. A history of this process, etc.
Any inklings about its name?
Billy_TParticipantWe need more people to use that word.
It’s frustrating that the media won’t…belligerently won’t use “Fascist”…
I don’t understand why not…fascism must inherently attack both corporatism and religion as it ascends because under fascism, the state must not only be primary, but unitary. All must be in service to the state ultimately.
Trump’s attacks on both the judiciary and the media are textbook fascism.
And considering that the media is both media and corporate, two things that fascists MUST destroy quickly… they’d better get on it before it’s too late.
Mac,
I’ve never seen that definition for fascism. Under Hitler, for example, German corporations thrived — at least until the war took a turn. As did religion. He in no way ever tried to destroy them. Nor did Mussolini. In fact, one definition for fascism is when corporations take over and become “the state.” “Corporatism” is also often said to be the original model for fascism, and the Roman Catholic Church in Italy was a proponent. Mussolini did back flips to woo the Church, etc.
February 5, 2017 at 8:14 am in reply to: Why Aren't Democrats Doing More to Support the Trump Resistance Movement? #64893Billy_TParticipantWell, you guys have said it all, pretty much. Yep. The Dems are cowards and spineless. That’s been the case for nearly 50 years, at least. With few flashes of sunshine during those dark days. Not that they were exactly consistent profiles in courage before that. But they at least supported their own center-left agenda. They tended not to run screaming from their own base/core ideas, etc. Now they do. Or mock them.
Really good book on one of the first — but not the first — signs of this betrayal: Walter Karp: Liberty Under Siege: American Politics 1976–1988. New York: Franklin Square Press. ISBN 1-879957-11-6.
First bumped into the book in this must-read for leftists:
George Scialabba’s What Are Intellectuals Good For?
Billy_TParticipantI agree with the point about networking. I believe that is probably the most important outcome of the March. Not just creating contacts, but the expansion of awareness of related issues. There is no way to educate people on all of these issues efficiently. The best way is through conversations that take place when people’s interest is aroused, like these marches. So hopefully a lot of the Marchers who aren’t socialist feminists had their eyes open to a wide range of issues. That’s the best outcome of all of these demonstrations in my opinion.
————-
Well, it couldn’t hurt.But my own experience at marches is that there
aint much ‘education’ goin on. There’s speeches, and walking, and goofing around, and smiling, and laughing and gawking, and people-watching, and chatting, some music… maybe some drugs maybe some alcohol. Some painted faces. Some signs. Lots of photos.But i haven’t seen a whole lot of ‘education’ or networking, myself. I aint marched in a decade or so though.
w
vWV,
On a possibly lighter note . . . didn’t you try Ayahuasca years ago at one of those marches? How did all of that go? Did you get a sudden urge to listen to Jim Morrison a lot?
Billy_TParticipantAlso, what he may have been hinting at can be applied to virtually anyone seeking “equality” for their group, ethnicity, gender, etc. etc. while still being fine with capitalism. IF they’re fine with it, etc.
In essence, they’re saying, “We want a chance to dominate the bottom 80-99% just like rich white men do!”
(Huge generalization here, but I think the Dems basically appeal to the professional class, the managerial class and Academia, which might roughly contain the richest 10-20%. The Republicans and the right basically appeal to the 1% and wannabes 1%)
If, OTOH, they want to bring the whole pyramid down to achieve “equality and liberation” that way . . . not just to be like rich white men, but to end domination by ANYONE . . . then we’re cooking with real butter.
__
H/T to WV and bell hooks for the use of “domination.”
Billy_TParticipantThe cigarette can be a potent symbol and extended in all kinds of directions to great effect. Again, I haven’t read the author before, so I have no idea what he’s done with it in the past. But I think he wasted a good opportunity in the article above.
It speaks to the immorality of the capitalist system — to be all too generous, its amorality — that it would use, and needs to use, such marketing techniques. Why? Because capitalism is the first economic system in human history to make exchange-value paramount and to require endless growth and the expansion of new markets. No previous economic system required these things or was inherently imperialistic. Capitalism was the first.
We used to make things ourselves, at home, or within a community, as needed (within independent, autonomous local markets). As in, use-value. Capitalism, OTOH, as our first M-C-M economic system, made use-value meaningless and irrelevant and replaced it with exchange-value.
Literally, anything for a buck. Doesn’t matter if it kills you. Can you market it? Sell it? Brainwash enough people to believe they want it or even need it? Who cares if it has one iota of use-value, or if it sends you to an early grave.
So Bernays and company figured if they can just make women believe it’s a great show of “freedom and emancipation” to be just like men and smoke yourself to death, a few humans will make vast fortunes while millions die to make that happen. And they had a lot of help from Hollywood in the process.
The history of capitalism is littered with hundreds of millions of dead people all in the name of profits for the few. And that’s not hyperbole.
Billy_TParticipantOther aspects are extremely important too. Capitalism gives control over resources to the few. They dictate to the many how they’re allocated. Zero democracy in that mix. The few set prices, wages, decide what to produce, when, how, for whom. The few decide all of this for the many. The logical repercussions of that are pretty obvious. As are the anti-democratic, slave-like foundations of just such a system.
And, again, I’m talking just about capitalism at this point.
The best “reformist” capitalism on the planet right now is arguably in the Scandinavian countries. But they, too, have poverty, homelessness, hunger and they rely on slave labor from overseas for a great many of their commodities. No capitalist nation escapes from that. And they can’t.
Capitalism can’t function without kicking the can down the road, kicking pain down the road, somewhere else. Spatially, and into the future. Math and logic tell us we can’t have BOTH the concentration of wealth in a few hands AND take care of everyone’s needs in an adequate fashion as well. It’s literally impossible. You’d have to have well beyond 100% of a finite thing in order to do that.
It’s easy to distribute resources if we all share them. It’s impossible to distribute them in any way remotely adequate if a few people control everything and hoard the majority of that wealth and those resources. Math tells us there will never be enough left over once the top hoards what it can — and it can legally do that under capitalism.
Billy_TParticipantOkay, stepping back.
By all means, digress at will. I’m fine with that and probably engage in that more than I should.
;>)
But I think your digression is more about how we should talk about the stuff we talk about, rather than really making a case for X, Y or Z.
As in, if you don’t agree that I’ve been saying 2+2=4, instead of saying I shouldn’t draw up that equation, perhaps say something like:
“I don’t think it equals 2+2=4, and here’s why . . .”
That would allow for a nice flow for the digression, perhaps even into other digressions, which I often enjoy too.
IOW, if you disagree with the substance of my arguments, please offer a counter-argument. From my POV, you’re not doing that when you talk about “purism,” or “utopian claims” or “historical inevitability.” Again, someone else, somewhere else, at some other time may have inserted those things into the conversation, but I haven’t. Nor has Wolff.
So if you actually believe “capitalism” has been able to somehow, magically, concentrate Capital at the very top, for the few, while also allocating resources for the many in an adequate (much less fair or just) manner, please demonstrate when and how this happened. Because, historically speaking, there isn’t any evidence that it has happened. Ever. Capitalism has always left the masses behind. And after more than two centuries, if it hasn’t happened yet — and it hasn’t — logic tells us it never will.
Billy_TParticipantI don’t think the women’s march was any one thing. It wasn’t even confined to women’s issues. There were a lot of people marching who marched in solidarity with women, but were motivated by, and promoting, other issues such as LGBT, gay, environmental, and so on. It was a broad coalition of causes that united under the banner of women’s issues with which everyone is sympathetic.
Moreover, I will say that I never heard of a pussyhat website until now. None of the marchers I know ever mentioned it, and they certainly weren’t following any kind of instructions, or lead from a webpage. So I agree that part of the article is just facile. This was not Bernays-level manipulation by any stretch.
But I also don’t see any Stalin-level demands for purity in the piece. I see a (correct) observation that most of the marchers have failed to recognized the big picture, the one that extends to women’s rights beyond their own personal concerns. I think that’s just true. They were largely out there because of concern about the chauvinistic tone of Trump and his supporters, and because of concern about Planned Parenthood etc. That, broadly speaking, was the impetus. The writer points out that that is hardly a comprehensive approach to women’s issues.
Unfortunately, I think he is dismissive of the march for that reason, when another person might have pointed out that it was a big step in the right direction that people are standing up for themselves. We haven’t even been doing THAT much in this country. So standing up for self may be the first step. Standing up for others comes later in the growth of the movement.
I don’t, however, think that the march means much unless it is followed with constant pressure, and a concerted effort to dislodge as many politicians as possible with alternatives who are farther to the left politically. Because – let’s face it – the march in itself was close to pointless. Marches don’t do much of anything except provide catharsis. They have little, if any, impact on policy. Just a few days after the march, Trump nominates a regressive judge to the SC, and while the women are marching, he signs the Global Gag Rule. So…you know…
The march was important as a networking agent as well. I heard so many people say that. That they made connections they never would have made otherwise, and were now highly motivated to organize and perhaps even run for office themselves.
You make excellent points about the diversity of the marchers. All kinds of different issues being represented. We could all hear that in the speeches, etc. etc.
As for that global gag rule. You no doubt know Trump expanded it. Since Reagan, it’s basically been just turning off the light, turning it back on, turning it off again, with each change in parties. But this time was different. Trump made it far worse:
Excerpt:
Trump’s reinstatement of the policy on Monday was not unexpected. Indeed, since Reagan, every Republican president has reinstated the rule when he comes into office, and every Democrat has rescinded it. But what was a shock was Trump’s radical expansion of the policy to include not just family planning organizations but all global health organizations that receive US government funding.
This means organizations that address everything from malaria, tuberculosis, and HIV/AIDS to tropical diseases and vaccinations — the list goes on — will now risk losing funding if they even mention abortion.
“It is not only chilling effect on family planning,” Dr. Mengistu Asnake, the Ethiopia country representative for Pathfinder International, a global family planning organization, tells me via Skype from Addis Ababa. “It will create a chilling effect on every health program.”
“This is really an extreme executive order,” says Lori Adelman, director of global communications at Planned Parenthood, “perhaps the most extreme executive order ever issued in the global health space. It is more extreme than under any other Republican administration.”
Billy_TParticipantSee, ZN, this is why it helps to actually read what people are saying — or watch their videos — instead of repeating what you mistakenly assume they must be saying, even after you’ve been corrected several times on that already.
No one is making “utopian claims” here. Not Wolff. Not me. We ARE discussing this in rational, analytical terms, using empirically verifiable evidence to support our views. More than two centuries’ worth and counting.
And I have yet to see you counter any of that with evidence of your own. Instead, you just keep claiming to be above “purism” or “utopian claims” which aren’t in the picture here. At all.
So, again, have you watched the video, and if so, would you kindly comment ABOUT that video?
I didn’t say a word about the video either way. That;s not what I was addressing.
I was addressing your claim that there’s only one valid political end-deduction.
I was saying that to me that’s purism and to me it’s the old dream of universalizing reason. It’s vote casting time and I am speaking up for a different way to see that.
And on that, my best guess is, we will only end up differing. Which is fine.
.
ZN,
But what’s the point in responding to a thread in which Wolff’s video is central, essential, when you haven’t even bothered to watch it?
And what’s the point in trying to argue that I’m making claims I haven’t made? You did this in the other thread about capitalism as well, and I corrected you there several times too. Your response was basically the same. You actually said you weren’t going to bother reading what I had written, because you’re already deadset against “utopian claims” and “historical inevitability,” neither of which were remotely a part of the original discussion.
And you would have known that if you HAD read my posts.
You’ve continued that here. So your point is actually about other people, somewhere else, perhaps in your past, whom you disagreed with.
It may be highly idiosyncratic of me to think it makes more sense to stick with arguments actually being made in the thread in question . . . But I don’t think so.
;>)
Billy_TParticipantSo, if I say 2+2=4, I’m a purist?
No, because that’s an empirical issue.
To me rational, deductive constructs making utopian claims about human social and political conflicts are not empirical. Even if they say they are.So if someone says (as did Edmund Burke) that because we are fallen creatures, weak and with limited perspectives and driven by only partially understood naked self-interest, we need a hierarchical societies–that is human beings must be ruled in a top-down scheme–he is making a universalizing claim based on a particular belief.
That’s not simple math. Burke remember also thought he was simply giving us the clear and direct, empirical truth based on reason and clear analysis. Well, he wasn’t. It was a series of deductions from beliefs he held. If we say to Burke, you’re wrong because of this or that factor, he would say the same to us. And there’s no truth god to sort it out for us.
See, ZN, this is why it helps to actually read what people are saying — or watch their videos — instead of repeating what you mistakenly assume they must be saying, even after you’ve been corrected several times on that already.
No one is making “utopian claims” here. Not Wolff. Not me. We ARE discussing this in rational, analytical terms, using empirically verifiable evidence to support our views. More than two centuries’ worth and counting.
And I have yet to see you counter any of that with evidence of your own. Instead, you just keep claiming to be above “purism” or “utopian claims” which aren’t in the picture here. At all.
So, again, have you watched the video, and if so, would you kindly comment ABOUT that video?
Billy_TParticipantAs already mentioned, I’m not a “purist” either, nor are the vast majority of Marxians I’ve read. Nor is Professor Wolff.
Remember this is all my vote and how I see it. That’s the only approach I have to this (and the only one I personally want to have.) So to me, anyone who says there is only one valid belief about x, y, or z is being a purist.
Anyone who says the equivalent of “and if you don’t believe x or y or z you’re not real” is a purist.
I am not being philosophical about purism. Meaning, I don’t have a lengthy analytic rational take on it. I see it as occurring any time someone says “unless you accept doctrine x you’re lacking.” Or at least that kind of statement when they make it is purist.
I don’t believe in doctrinal purity in analysis in any way, shape, or form. I don;t think any human being is perceptive enough to make claims like that.
….
So, if I say 2+2=4, I’m a purist? Cuz that’s how I’m looking at capitalism. Mathematically, logically. It’s not “doctrine.” It’s saying the blue sky is blue.
Also, you’ve mentioned several times that we can’t discuss “class” without including X, Y and Z. You insist it can’t be done. Under your own definition of “purism,” you’re a purist.
All of us have certain things we see as just self-evidently the case. To me, I think it’s a waste of time and derails the conversation to trade accusations about things like “doctrine” or “purity” or to claim we’re above this or that, unlike others, etc.
Again, have you watched the video? If so, will you comment on what Wolff says?
Billy_TParticipant<
WV,I agree about the absence of class-consciousness. Big time. Your Wolff video deals with that indirectly. The Frankfurt School folks I’m reading about dealt with that directly.
The thing is, the author just didn’t need to make that point via a putdown of the women’s march. It actually makes zero sense to attack it from that angle. Shit. He should be applauding the activism, the passion, the enthusiasm for mass opposition to the status quo.
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Ok, but think about what you…just said: “I agree about the absence of class consciousness”.Well, that was EXACTLY the writers whole entire point.
There is a great gaping galaxy-sized absence of it in this country. So why wouuld you think the March would be any different?
The Marchers were MAINLY lacking in ‘class consciousness’ — they were MAINLY Dems. Obama/Clinton Dems.
Now your second point — “the author didnt need to putdown the march” — well now you are talking STRATEGY. And yes, it may very well BE bad strategy to write that article that way. Sure. Thats a real concern. I’d have written it differently. But the main substantive POINT of it was that the marchers (men AND women) in this nation lack class consciousness. Wolff made exactly the same point he just didnt pick on anybody.
w
vI don’t follow the author. Does he make the same points about Trump voters and Republicans? Cuz the vast majority of America is drowning in that absence. And as mentioned in the thread on Wolff I think this includes some leftists. IMO, any leftist who is supportive of capitalism in any form “lacks class consciousness.” I honestly can’t see how they can thread that needle, walk that tightrope, reconcile those contradictions, etc. etc.
Capitalism GENERATES class divisions for the benefit of the few. It can’t operate without them. It creates them, on purpose, naturally. If it didn’t it wouldn’t be capitalism. It would be something completely different . . . perhaps what Wolff suggests (and what I advocate): a fully democratic economic system, without employer/employee divisions. No more permanent hierarchies — and the lowest levels of even temporary hierarchies possible. No more concentration of Capital at the top. No more private ownership of the means of production.
Does the author discuss economics in those terms at all? Or is his target just one part of the political spectrum?
Billy_TParticipantZN,
btw, did you watch this particular video? It would help the dialogue if you would and then perhaps comment on what Wolff actually said.
Billy_TParticipantI can’t count the number of women I know who were in that march. And none of them are restricted to the stereotypes this limited-minded guy wants to promote.
Yeah, I agree. That guy is a sexist ass.
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Nah, i dont think so at all. I think he’s pointing out the fact that most of the voters in this country dont have a highly developed sense of class-consciousness. The proof is in the Senate, the House and the Presidency.w
vWV,
I agree about the absence of class-consciousness. Big time. Your Wolff video deals with that indirectly. The Frankfurt School folks I’m reading about dealt with that directly.
The thing is, the author just didn’t need to make that point via a putdown of the women’s march. It actually makes zero sense to attack it from that angle. Shit. He should be applauding the activism, the passion, the enthusiasm for mass opposition to the status quo.
Billy_TParticipantAll the rest is denial and window dressing.
My vote is different. I am not a purist and in fact almost out of instinct resist purism. I don’t believe anyone can arrive at a valid view of how where when why history will go a certain direction, or name what’s best for all of us, or what can will or should work. I apply that equally to pro- and anti-capitalists. Neoliberals are stuck so deeply in a particular theoretical model that they basically end up being what amounts to a religion. To me it’s no different. Left negative mirror images of that are no better, IMO,and have many of the same problems, just the left version of them. Which is fine…let a thousand flowers bloom…EXCEPT when it becomes divisive and therefore crippling (not saying that’s happening here.)
That’s my vote. True to my own convictions on this, I won’t try to “debate” anyone into accepting it, or offer it as the only possible rational view. Just expounding. Tossing my pennies in.
I am always an historian on these things, not a philosopher. By “historian” I don’t mean interest in the past. I mean that when things are complex and involve many moving parts and many kinds of responses, then what will happen will be much more organic, and that history shows us to expect that. To me philosophers deduce things from assumptions and principles on the basis of abstract reason, and, history also shows us that no human person sees enough for that kind of deductive reasoning to ever really be complete enough or nuanced enough or sensitive enough or dialectical enough to hold up.
Again, that’s just a vote. How I see it.
If others see it different than the real question to me is, well then what are our points of alliance now, in this time and place.
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ZN,
As already mentioned, I’m not a “purist” either, nor are the vast majority of Marxians I’ve read. Nor is Professor Wolff.
And, again, the part about historical inevitability is a straw man AND red herring. No Marxian believes in that, and very few Marxists these days. Hell, Marx didn’t. He used it as metaphor, being one of the world’s most voracious readers of literature in his day.
This isn’t about “models.” This is about analyzing the history of capitalism, its internal logic, its structure, why it does what it does and what makes it unique. This is about math and logic, democracy and common sense.
Now, if you can show how capitalism has ever, in its entire history, been able to allocate resources in a fair and just way, be my guest. Much less that it could do this without destroying cultures in its way. Or that it was ever able to concentrate Capital at the top without wars, the expansion of empire, slavery, colonialism, etc.
You say you look at things from an historical point of view. Show me, then. Cuz that history doesn’t exist.
Billy_TParticipantOne of the author’s most obvious mistakes is the assumption he can read minds. I see this most often in right-wing Op-Eds, which routinely purport to know exactly what their political opponents are thinking — at all times, apparently. One of the reasons I strongly prefer left-wing analysis is that it tends to — with exceptions, of course — actually cite quotations, transcripts, radio or tv proof for its argument.
This particular author, unfortunately, went the right-wing route of just making sweeping statements about the motives of all the women at these marches, without presenting anything to support any of those statements.
Whether or not a person agrees with his sweeping statements, it should be acknowledged no attempt was made to back them up.
Billy_TParticipantThe key for me is to just see capitalism for what it is and always will be: a machine whose internal logic generates mass inequality via anti-democratic and autocratic means.
It’s zero sum, by definition. You can’t accumulate Capital in one place without removing it from another. And you can’t accumulate a lot of Capital in one place without removing personal, or group, or societal autonomy elsewhere.
Even at its best — 1947-1973, roughly — capitalism was able to accumulate Capital at the top only through a centuries of primitive accumulation, domestically and internationally, wars, the rape of natural resources, genocide, slavery, and so on. And in the recent past, even during that Golden Age, it could not possibly accumulate Capital at the top, and the middle, and the bottom at the same time, so it had to screw people in the here and now as well. In America, this meant minorities and women, especially, and people overseas.
Capitalism has never, ever, not in its entire history, be able, no matter what reforms were/are in place, to avoid screwing over the masses or avoid polluting the planet, and it can’t possibly fix that and still BE capitalism in the future.
Billy_TParticipantWolff also shows why “reform” will never work. Even “leftist” reform. If a leftist is still supportive of capitalism, IMO, he or she is really only a more humane cheerleader for an oppressive system. More humane than a European social democrat, who’s more humane than an American liberal, who’s more humane than an American moderate or European conservative, who’s more humane than an American conservative, who’s more humane than an American minarchist, etc. etc.
But, in my view, only left-anticapitalists actually tackle the root and branch of the problem: capitalism itself. All the rest is denial and window dressing.
Billy_TParticipantThanks, WV. Good video. You and I have talked about Wolff before. He’s so good at boiling down complicated Marxian and Marxist concepts and making them highly accessible.
And in this video — as in the vast majority of them — he was speaking my language. Democratizing the workplace, rotational direction, no more master/slave|employer/employee splits. I also liked his analogy of why it’s so important to include critics of X if we’re discussing X. It’s actually insane to study only the supporters of X, and then deal with the “nuances” of their support.
And there is no other “school” that understands capitalism as well as Marxian. Nothing comes close. Keynesian is the next best, but it supports capitalism, so it’s still coming from a direction of a cheerleader. Just a much better informed and far more logical cheerleader, etc.
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