Thanks, WV.

I want my own posts to remain within the realm of friendly discussions. At times I fear I’ve unintentionally moved it elsewhere. That’s an ongoing struggle for me.

__

ZN,

Cool picture of Portugal. I’ve been to Ireland, France, Monaco and dipped a toe on the other side of the French Pyrenees, so can technically say I’ve been to Spain. But haven’t made it to the land of Jose Saramago and Fernando Pessoa yet.

Aside from the natural beauty, culture and cuisine of Portugal, it would also offer easy connections to the rest of Europe, which is extremely appealing to me. If for no other reason than cultural/historical depths, I’d prefer being in Europe to here.

No place on earth is without its problems, of course. But on balance . . . . the art, music, cultural centers, the castles, the ancient ruins, etc. etc. . . . I’m drawn to the world across the Pond.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Billy_T.

wv wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

WV,

If you get the time, would be interested in you fleshing out what you mean by that media split (Dem versus Rep) a bit more.

It may well be I’ve just misread you. Wouldn’t be the first time. Won’t be the last.

Regardless, hope all is well.

=============

What i mean is simply the “Fox-News/Rightwing-Radio/Washington Times…MSM’. Which of course is nothing more than propaganda for the Corporotacracy.

And. the “MSNBC-NYTIMES-PBS/NPR…MSM” part of the media. Also fulfilling propaganda function. Also providing the grease for the Corporate killing machine.

Yes, I see a difference between the two MSMs. Just like i see a difference between the Dems and Reps. But they both fulfill the meta-mission of greasing the corporate-killing-machine. Neither part of the Meta-MSM fosters discussion outside the usual dem-rep-PRO-corporate-shared-reality-tunnel.

Neither of the MSM’s wanted a Bernie or a Jill anywhere near the Presidency. Neither of the MSM’s ever offer any non-corporate-capitalist solutions. Neither of the MSM’s ever question American exceptionalism or american good intentions or the white-washed sanitized version of history….blah blah blah.

Its not like either Fox or PBS ever had Howard Zinn come on as a regular weekly guest expert, right?

w
v

We definitely agree that they block any discussion of alternative societies — egalitarian, just, equal, fair, cooperative and peaceful societies. And this is horrifically wrong. They all try to narrow the framework to just Dem versus Rep, and this is, well, blah blah blah. We are in full agreement about how bad that is, how wrong, how immoral and destructive.

Ironically . . . back in the 1960s, you did find folks like Zinn on regular TV once in awhile. Even on entertainment shows like Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin. They’d have 60s radicals on now and then. They probably thought they could make them look bad, and usually failed, but they had them on.

Our media has gotten far more “conservative” and corporatized by the year, at least since 1968 or so.

I’m with Zooey. I want to leave this country and never look back. Hoping to retire to Portugal, or maybe the South of France in five years. If all goes well. I will miss my family, but they should visit often. And I’ll miss access to the Rams.

But it’s time.

WV,

If you get the time, would be interested in you fleshing out what you mean by that media split (Dem versus Rep) a bit more.

It may well be I’ve just misread you. Wouldn’t be the first time. Won’t be the last.

Regardless, hope all is well.

Another example of a difference that matters. To me, this is outrageous and scary stuff.

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/04/trump-white-house-weighing-plans-for-private-spies-to-counter-deep-state-enemies/

Excerpt:

Trump White House Weighing Plans for Private Spies to Counter “Deep State” Enemies
Matthew Cole, Jeremy Scahill

December 4 2017, 10:24 p.m.

The Trump administration is considering a set of proposals developed by Blackwater founder Erik Prince and a retired CIA officer — with assistance from Oliver North, a key figure in the Iran-Contra scandal — to provide CIA Director Mike Pompeo and the White House with a global, private spy network that would circumvent official U.S. intelligence agencies, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials and others familiar with the proposals. The sources say the plans have been pitched to the White House as a means of countering “deep state” enemies in the intelligence community seeking to undermine Donald Trump’s presidency.

The creation of such a program raises the possibility that the effort would be used to create an intelligence apparatus to justify the Trump administration’s political agenda.

“Pompeo can’t trust the CIA bureaucracy, so we need to create this thing that reports just directly to him,” said a former senior U.S. intelligence official with firsthand knowledge of the proposals, in describing White House discussions. “It is a direct-action arm, totally off the books,” this person said, meaning the intelligence collected would not be shared with the rest of the CIA or the larger intelligence community. “The whole point is this is supposed to report to the president and Pompeo directly.”

North, who appears frequently on Trump’s favorite TV network, Fox News, was enlisted to help sell the effort to the administration. He was the “ideological leader” brought in to lend credibility, said the former senior intelligence official.

Some of the individuals involved with the proposals secretly met with major Trump donors asking them to help finance operations before any official contracts were signed.

Hey, Ozone, hope all is well.

* Our household’s total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.

That was a lot to get through, so I skimmed. But this part jumped out at me. Noting, of course, this is from 1997, not now, I’m still puzzled by his claim of median income. Does he mean the median for millionaires? Or overall?

Cuz last time I checked, the median income for an individual in America was roughly 30K, and roughly 55K per household. Logically, it would have been even lower back in 1997, but maybe not by a lot, cuz rank and file wages have stagnated since 1973.

Guessing you either read the book or read the article with more care than I did. Do you know what he was referring to as “median” income?

And painting EITHER of them as “better” just insures destruction.

On this we part. It’s just not the job of the media to consciously try to paint the two parties as the same. They aren’t. Again, it distorts reality if they do. And I don’t think they do try to paint one party as “better” than the other. Media is almost always in the business of presenting what’s wrong. The negative. The bad. How often do they ever talk about what’s right, what’s good, what’s “better” about things?

If it bleeds, it leads.

But, again, if the cumulative effect of presenting the mountains of horrible, odious shit committed by the GOP and the political right, versus the smaller mountains of odious shit committed by the Dems and the political center, results in folks seeing the Dems as the lesser of two evils . . . well, I think that’s accurate, fair and definitely helpful. Because, whether we like it or not — and I hate it — the two parties rule all. And there really is a difference between them. The GOP really is significantly worse for the planet, for workers, for women and minorities. They really are far more aggressively in the tank for plutocrats. So when our choices suck, and when BOTH parties suck, and when BOTH parties do horrible things, but one party is significantly worse than the other — and it is — logic demands our media make that clear to everyone. Not via the Op Ed route, but via flat out telling the truth.

If it’s doing its job, it’s also making clear that neither party should be in power, that neither party has earned that, and that America would be far, far better off with leftists in charge. But we’re not going to get that. So the next best thing? Be truthful about the differences between the two controlling parties.

Btw, speaking of “planet killing,” did you see my post on Trump’s new executive order privatizing two million (formerly) protected acres in Utah? The Dems don’t do things like that. In fact, Obama set it aside to begin with.

WV,

I’ve mentioned the China Mieville’s book, October, before.

You really need to read it. He deals with the civil war in part, though he concentrates primarily on the lead up to the October revolution. (Recently read new translation of Doctor Zhivago, which spends more time on the civil war. Excellent novel.) Amazing history, and he shows the complexity of it all, how it could have gone in a thousand different directions, hundreds of different times. The wind blew and stuff changed on a dime so often, it’s incredible.

Nothing was inevitable.

And, yes, our support of the Whites was unconscionable, and the West’s in general. I’ve long believed that if we had stepped into help early on, we could have helped a true democracy take hold, if we had just rid ourselves of our ignorance regarding socialism. It never had to get to the point wherein the Bolsheviks made their move . . . and even after that, we could have prevented their inward and dictatorial turn by embracing them, instead of fighting on the other side in their civil war and then embargoing them.

America made that mistake countless times after that, too. It was monstrous for us to invade Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and countless coups and covert wars in between. The world would have been a much more peaceful, prosperous place if we hadn’t.

But all of that said, for me, none of that excuses what Trump and his campaign did to win the election. To me, it’s not relevant. I condemn it all.

As for being helpful? Yes, the media are pro-corporate, being owned by billionaires/MNCs. So they’re not going to give us the kind of info we want on that front. But in a battle between two corporatist parties, and two candidates from those parties, I definitely think it’s helpful to expose the far, far, far more odious of the two for their corruption, ugliness, racism, neo-nazi sympathies, etc. etc.

Clinton has already been exposed for her neoliberalism, and the media have been critical of her for 25 years. Trump is new to the game. It’s his turn to take the heat. It’s his time in the barrel.

Bottom line for me: I’m actually quite happy the media have been as tough as it has been on Trump, but they need to be tougher. They weren’t on Bush, or Reagan, for instance. Trump has awakened the inner journalist in many, most likely because he’s attacked them on a regular basis, and put their lives in danger in the process. If he had played his cards right, he could have had the same kind of lapdog press we saw during Bush’s run up to the Iraq war. But Trump had other ideas. He thought revving up his base’s hatred of the MSM was more important than gaining their trust and their compliance, which is the usual way for politicians.

wv wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

I think we’re watching, reading and hearing different sources in the MSM, cuz I’m just not seeing the story being peddled that you see. I mostly see reporters concentrating on Trump, as mentioned above, his actions, the actions of his campaign . . . and while, yes, there is some silly bluster how the boy scout nature of the FBI and other Intel groups, I don’t bump into the “city on the hill” rhetoric, or the evil Russians and the awesome Americans. It’s all about Trump lies, his and his campaign’s seemingly endless meetings with the Russians, their lies about those and so on. I see the focus mostly on Trump’s criminality, not Russia’s.

To me, that’s as it should be.

================

Well, we just interpret what we are seeing differently i guess. I see the DNC-MSM going after Trump as you say. (While the Rep-MSM goes after the Dems)

But i see the Russia-story being ‘used’ by the DNC-MSM as a basic propaganda tool, and as an anti-trump tool. They go hand in hand. The meta story is based on American exceptionalism and purity and the specific story is linking the evil trump to the evil putin empire.

And none of it has any accurate historical context. The DNC-MSM and the Rep-MSM both continue to dum-down the electorate and propagandize them endlessly. And thus we end up with Hillary vs Trump or Obama vs McCain, etc. Its all a circus of lies, comrad.

w
v

I think where we may be diverging is in the effects of dealing with Trump, versus the ongoing propagandizing of the American people. If I read you correctly, you see the focus on Trump as a part of that. I see it as a separate issue.

The propagandizing is ongoing, but it’s mostly, to me, about an attempted obliteration of any kind of alternative economic vision, which also means leftists have to be silenced. We’re not a part of the national conversation. The furthest “left” it’s allowed to go is Sanders, and the MSM has done its best to block even that. You and I and several others here are to the left of Sanders; our ideas are more egalitarian than his — and least those he’s talked about in public. And he’s it. The powers that be won’t allow anything further, because that really is a direct threat to them.

Trump isn’t. He helps them. He’s all in for the plutocracy. He’s deregulated businesses already, massively (through EOs), has turned federal department after federal department against its own public mission — and they were already weakened — and he’s ready to sign a huge tax cut for them. They may think he’s a lunatic, but they’ll gladly accept all the Christmas gifts he’s handing out . . . and the most destructive may be in the near future, with the privatization of our national parks.

In short, Trump is a dream come true for the corporatocracy, for billionaires, for serial pollutors, for arms merchants, the MIC, etc. They haven’t had a president so willing to make rich people richer since Reagan.

And the above is a big reason why I’m so puzzled by some leftist pundits who seem to be coming to his defense. Trump and the GOP are so appallingly against everything we stand for, it really dumbfounds me. As bad as the Clintons and the Dems are, they don’t come close to being so aggressively plutocratic. It’s just not close. And I say that noting how rotten Clinton and the Dems are . . . and I agree with you about their endless propagandizing of voters. I just don’t get the reluctance by some on the left to ALSO go after Trump. Again, he and the GOP are waaaay more destructive.

Anyway . . . more thots later.

Let me ask you an open question. What do you think of the American NSA/CIA/FBI ?
What do you think of the American Corporotocracy? What do you think of it? Why are you so upset about russian interference with this….thing. ? Do you think this ‘thing’ is a ‘good’ thing?

Those are pretty tough questions to wrap up in a short space, but I’ll take a stab at them. First off, you misread me if you think I’m so “upset about this Russia thing” with a focus on what Russia has done. As mentioned above, my anger is directed at Trump and the GOP, almost exclusively. I know that America and Russia have traded attacks, back and forth, for decades. It’s not what Russia did, per se, as far as I’m concerned. It’s what Trump and company did to get elected — and to build his business empire.

As for our intel agencies. I’ve said before, they work primarily on behalf of capital and capitalism, to keep it safe and help it expand. I despise the capitalist system with every fiber of my being, and I think the “corporatocracy” is a natural outgrowth of capitalism itself. Replace capitalism with an all democratic and egalitarian economic system, and no more corporatocracy. Which also means there’s now next to no reason for those intel agencies to exist.

Though, because we’ve had “empire” historically for thousands of years, you’ll still have secret orgs. And because they’re all over the globe, we’ll need them too, tragically. The key then becomes keeping them fully under democratic control, which we’ve never done. That needs to start. Transparent to the degree possible. Under true democratic control. And, IMO, there can never be any real democracy until the economy is fully democratized.

My own philosophy is decidedly antiwar, anti-empire, pro-democracy and radically egalitarian. If my own dreams for humanity came even close to being true, America would not be an empire any longer; we’d be fully democratic, including the economy, and there wouldn’t be any need for those intel agencies. But that’s not the world, obviously. IMO, leftists need to work toward all of that, knowing it may take generations. The struggle is worth it because the end goal is . . . . well, beautiful beyond words.

WV,

I think you must have missed my followup from 10:17pm. It looks like your most recent response doesn’t include it. I talk more about historical context there, including our own history of interference and worse.

And prior to reading your response, I was thinking of yet another followup last night.

;>)

Basically, from my observation of the MSM, they aren’t (and haven’t been) focusing that much on Russia itself, and I see, read and hear very little anger directed their way, ironically. And next to no calls for retaliation. The focus is on Trump and what he did and is doing, and now the most recent shift is away from “collusion” and onto “obstruction of justice.” Obstruction of justice appears to be the next step in this story.

My take is that Trump has long been THE primary focus, not what Russia did, and I think that’s warranted. My own view is decidedly antiwar, anti-empire, anti-capitalist, as you know, and I want serious international diplomacy, not retaliation. But I ALSO want Trump (and some from his inner circle) to go to jail for what he’s done. I think it’s beyond obvious that he’s a criminal of long standing, and that he was helped in his bid for the presidency by Russian criminals, and “justice” demands that he not be rewarded for such things. It demands that he pay a price for his actions. He never has. It’s time for that to end.

(Will respond more directly to your questions above next post)

wv wrote:

I think what we are all trying to do is….kinda, more or less, ‘describe’ or evaluate or figure out, the ‘situation’ — ie,
the Corporotacracy, Plutocracy, Oligarchy, Empire, or whatever. And to me, that requires describing the whole thing. The contexts. And i dont think we can talk about the russian thing (which to me is minor compared to the the other stuff) without talking about Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Propaganda systems (MSM) etc.

To me the Russia thing is there, but its so small compared to the other stuff. And yet, the MSM only wants to focus on Russia. For propaganda-reasons. Not to get to the truth — but for PROPAGANDA reasons. They are USING the issue to prop up the usual mythologies. And so, to me, talking about the russia thing IN ISOLATION, basically just gives aid and comfort to the deep-state.

First off, I’ve never advocated for talking about Russia in isolation, and from my observation, our MSM doesn’t do that. They can’t, really. Cuz Trump is forever stirring up the pot with a thousand other things, so our MSM talks about that too. The NFL. Sexual assault. The tax bill. Health care repeals. North Korea missile tests. Charlottesville. Retweeting fake videos from Islamophobes, etc. etc. Their plate is always pretty full. From my perspective, Russia comes up only when there’s a new revelation or indictment, and there’s always something else going on beyond that.

Second, I don’t see how it’s a very useful propaganda tool for America, for several reasons. It shows how vulnerable we are when it comes to cyberwarfare, how incompetent and unprepared, and because we’re so polarized, much of the country disagrees about what really happened, why, how or if it matters. Just not seeing how this helps the “deep state,” and it’s also a fact that Europe thinks Russia interfered there too. It would be quite the worldwide conspiracy if our MSM and theirs “colluded” to invent this interference, with almost no push back from the vast majority of media outlets.

Third, not seeing how reporting this story props up the usual mythologies. This just isn’t your grandmother’s Russia. Another “red scare” wouldn’t make one iota of sense, because Putin’s Russia is even more ferociously capitalist/neoliberal than we are, and well to our right. I just don’t see how it benefits the “deep state” or anyone else here, except, perhaps, for cybersecurity companies. And even they can be made to look pretty bad for their abject failures to prevent this — the hacks and the massive invasion of our social media infrastructure with endless fake news bots, etc.

I’d be interested in your take on how this actually works as a propaganda tool, and for whom. Again, America is so divided, so fragmented, so at odds with itself . . . it’s difficult for me to see how this is a “winning” issue for anyone among the power elite, really. But I may just be missing the obvious.

Great game. Nice to see the Rams win again.

Btw,

Did you catch this about Kushner?

http://www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner-disclosure-form-west-bank-settlements-israel-white-house-729290

excerpt:

Jared Kushner Failed to Disclose He Led a Foundation Funding Illegal Israeli Settlements Before U.N. Vote
By Chris Riotta On 12/3/17 at 6:00 AM

Jared Kushner failed to disclose his role as a co-director of the Charles and Seryl Kushner Foundation from 2006 to 2015, a time when the group funded an Israeli settlement considered to be illegal under international law, on financial records he filed with the Office of Government Ethics earlier this year.

The latest development follows reports on Friday indicating the White House senior adviser attempted to sway a United Nations Security Council vote against an anti-settlement resolution passed just before Donald Trump took office, which condemned the structure of West Bank settlements. The failure to disclose his role in the foundation—at a time when he was being tasked with serving as the president’s Middle East peace envoy—follows a pattern of egregious omissions that would bar any other official from continuing to serve in the West Wing, experts and officials told Newsweek.

I have it taped. Will have to watch it today.

The Jesus of the bible was a leftist. He was well to the left of liberal, and on the opposite side of the spectrum from the Christian right. Basically, a DFH before the term was used. A “commie” before the term was used. He and his merry band of leftists went from town to town, sharing everything, refusing monetary compensation for everything, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and never asking for anything in return.

Oh, and he said no rich man could follow him. They’d have to give away all of their money to the poor first. And rich people couldn’t get into heaven.

It’s amazing how the Church subsequently found ways around the frequent Jeremiads against personal wealth, and today some Christians even peddle being obscenely rich as a sign of their god’s favor.

As for refugees? Yeah, Jesus would accept all of them. No limits. No bans on certain religions, etc.

The world is so twisted these days.