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Well, personally, I don’t see your point at all on the effects of including states in with the definition. Honestly, I have no idea how that could lead to some sort of Islamophobic-only discussion. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Not in the slightest. In fact, I think by including states, it does the opposite of what you’re saying. It holds countries like Israel and the United States accountable for their actions against Muslims — among a host of others. And it includes state “terror” campaigns against a host of powerless domestic groups as well. As mentioned, striking workers, dissidents of all stripes, Occupy, blacks, Native Americans and other minorities, women, etc. etc.
Be that as it may . . . . I don’t want to get bogged down in definitions, either.
To be honest, I don’t think “terrorism” is an apt description of what Mateen did. I think he just snapped, and his toxic mixture of self-hatred and hatred for certain groups just boiled over. Easy access to weapons literally weaponized that self-hatred, and the rest of that toxic mix. It seems pretty clear that nothing he did by slaughtering those people could possibly further any “political” aims, so that part of the definition is out. Did he “terrorize” people? Definitely. But so do rapists and a host of other people who generally aren’t called “terrorists.”
In short, I think “mass shooter” is more appropriate than “terrorist.” Though pretty much anything we call him is really, in the scheme of things, in the midst of this tragedy, irrelevant.
That said, I didn’t want to get bogged down in a discussion of definitions, either.
The main thing for me, is to do whatever we can to radically reduce these tragedies, if not end them altogether. To find ways to do this.
This particular case seems among the most complex in recent times, with the most seeming contradictions. But the bottom line for me is, he could not have slaughtered so many people without the tools to do so. And the tool of choice among mass shooters is a semi-automatic gun, most often an AR-15.
We can’t solve for the variable of hate — at least not right away. But we can solve for the variable of weapons. That’s within our control. Changing the way people think about “the Other” will take decades. Changing our gun laws can be done now. Yesterday.
And so you can think what you want, but, I am staying within the intelligible parameters of understanding what the legal definitions are of domestic and international terrorism, instead of participating in the whole “have an agenda, change the word” phenomena right now.
I know you like to continue old fights, but I was done with the hiroshima discussion and fully acknowledge that we see it very differently. I know there was some “ah but my opinion is the truth” stuff going on with that but I regard that as par for the course in discussions like this.
My eye is on the actual legal definition of terrorism and what it means.
You assume far too much in these discussions. It’s the biggest reason why you and I have these disagreements. You are forever assuming you just know the real motives behind my posts, and you don’t. You never have. You’re actually quite tin-eared about these things, routinely, primarily because you’re so certain you do know the hidden rationale behind all things. Judging from the ways you consistently mischaracterize them, your certainty is misplaced. Severely misplaced.
Please just stop. Take them on face value, or please just ignore them altogether.
I said what I said because I believe it to be true, not because I “have an agenda.”
ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorismthe use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
That would include states.
And, yes, of course, all the sides “did it” in WWII — and most, if not all, other wars. But we have virtually no control over what these other nations decide to do, with regard to future use. We have next to no ability to control other nations along those lines. We do, however, have control over our own actions. To me, that’s why it’s more important for us to recognize and admit to our use of terrorism as a tactic, when we’ve resorted to it over time. Against striking workers, dissidents of all stripes, Native Americans, blacks (and other minorities), women, etc. etc. and overseas.
The definition being used for terrorism easily places the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in that category. “Shock and awe” in Iraq, the firebombing of Dresden and Tokya, to name just a few.
Israel is also a terrorist nation, under that definition. There are many others, of course.
I think it’s time to include states in the mix with this too. If it’s politically correct to always name things as a certain kind of ____ terrorism, it should be done when states act in this manner as well.
Yes the keeping pace with technology was the reality at the time of the Revolutionary War and the BOR and has been interpreted as that ever since through the various advances in firearms technology.
No, bnw. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution or the BOR to support that reading. Nothing. “Keeping up with the pace of technology” does not exist in our “founding” docs. Not implied, suggested, remotely, indirectly, etc. etc. Not implicit or explicit.
And no one but fringe gun fanatics ever push that “interpretation,” which is really cover for an even fringier ideology: That certain citizens believe they must keep up with the firepower of our military in order to crush it, if they deem it “tyrannical.” Of course, the Don’t Tread on Me crowd sees things like taxes and Medicare as “tyrannical,” so they’re not really the best folks to listen to when it comes to government overreach.
And I say that as someone who sees our political system as illegitimate. I see both parties as illegitimate. I want an end to the capitalism regime of terror and oppression. Yesterday. But I want it to end through the democratic process, non-violently, not through guns. The Don’t Tread on Me crowd, OTOH, has a collective Red Dawn (death wish) fantasy, and if we go down that road, tens of millions will die and we’ll likely end up with fascism.
In short, fuck that.
Washington mandated weapons for the militia, and that citizens pay for these themselves. It was perhaps the very first mandate in American history.
I have no idea why you’re not getting this. There is no confiscation of weapons being proposed by the Dems. None. If we ban the sale of certain KINDS of weapons — weapons of mass destruction like the AR-15 that no civilian should be ABLE to get — you still can buy thousands of different kinds of guns. Your “right” hasn’t been touched. Your SA rights are still 100% intact.
Again, nowhere in the amendment does it say you have a right to any kind of gun your heart desires, without limitations, forever, forever able to keep up with the latest technological advances in lethality and capacity. Nowhere. It’s not in there, implied, hinted at, suggested, implicit or explicit.
So we as a society SHOULD ban weapons that make killing sprees easy. It’s insane not to. No one has any need of such weapons UNLESS they want to go on those killing sprees.
Think about it, bnw. There is no other reason to own one.
No, bnw.
The right as put forth in the BOR was a collective one. It was ONLY in the context of a well-regulated state militia, for the purpose of protecting that state. It doesn’t say, anywhere, that you get to keep up with the latest technology or purchase military-style hardware, if you’re not in the military.
Yes, you have the right of self-defense. But that was yours centuries before the BOR was written. The British recognized that right among the colonies.
The BOR merely encoded a collective right for purposes of staffing and stocking state militias. And since they no longer exist, the entire rationale for that “right” is gone. It no longer exists, like those slave-catching militias.
We, as a society, have always had the right to prevent people from arming yourself to the teeth and going off on killing sprees, and nothing in the Constitution, and nothing in the BOR transcends society’s right to protect itself from them.
It’s time we grew up and ended our sick gun fetishism and our fear of the NRA. Literally millions of Americans are dead because of that fetishism and that fear.
Respect for the dead demands we can’t say he is a registered democrat? I disagree. The democrats are using this to try to deny our 2nd Amendment right. You know it too. It was an act of terrorism. You know that too.
No. The Democrats aren’t trying to do that, bnw. Nothing they have EVER proposed would take away your Second Amendment right. Nothing. Nothing they’ve EVER proposed would come within light years of doing that.
Again, you’ve never had a Second Amendment right to an AR-15 or any weapon of you so desire — without restrictions. That’s never existed. Not here. Not in any nation on earth. Never. And if we do someday wake up and realize that it’s utterly insane to allow the manufacture, sale and possession of weapons of mass destruction like the AR-15, and then ban them, at every possible level, we STILL won’t be taking away any of your rights. None. You never had the right to unlimited consumer choice in the first place. There was never a right to the total absence of restrictions on your purchasing and possessing weapons.
Btw, you should capitalize “Democrat.” Hopefully, we’re all “democrats” here. As in, lovers of democracy.
I like Hedges a lot, too. Very strong leftist, and a great activist. He’s walked the walk and risked his life on numerous occasions. But he’s not perfect. Like any person, he has his blind spots — as do we all.
David Graeber points to one here, and it was an important one. Kinda long article, but worth a read. I don’t know if Hedges ever did change his mind about anarchists and Black Bloc groups.
Concerning the Violent Peace-Police
Excerpt:
I am writing this on the premise that you are a well-meaning person who wishes Occupy Wall Street to succeed. I am also writing as someone who was deeply involved in the early stages of planning Occupy in New York.
I am also an anarchist who has participated in many Black Blocs. While I have never personally engaged in acts of property destruction, I have on more than one occasion taken part in Blocs where property damage has occurred. (I have taken part in even more Blocs that did not engage in such tactics. It is a common fallacy that this is what Black Blocs are all about. It isn’t.)
I was hardly the only Black Bloc veteran who took part in planning the initial strategy for Occupy Wall Street. In fact, anarchists like myself were the real core of the group that came up with the idea of occupying Zuccotti Park, the “99%” slogan, the General Assembly process, and, in fact, who collectively decided that we would adopt a strategy of Gandhian non-violence and eschew acts of property damage. Many of us had taken part in Black Blocs. We just didn’t feel that was an appropriate tactic for the situation we were in.
To be clear, I consider any gun that will fire every time you pull the trigger and has a magazine of over 10 bullets an assault weapon. Why the fuck would any law abiding US citizen need something like that?
There isn’t any need for it. IMO, the best way to regulate that is to ban all weapons with detachable ammo containers of any kind, shape, size, etc. etc. That way, you don’t run into the absurd semantics game that gun nuts love to play. They want us to get hung up on what these weapons are called, and to forget what they do.
Keep it to old-style six shooters, and no higher. Keep it to guns that must be hand loaded, one bullet at a time.
Those will still allow self-defense, hunting, target practice and so on. And none of those restrictions would abridge the Second Amendment . . . which was, afterall, composed within a context of single-load, one-bullet-then-fire worlds. And there isn’t the remotest of a whisper in the amendment that says citizens get to keep up with the latest tech, choose the latest firepower, choose the most lethal weapons available. Not one iota of a suggestion is there about that. It just says “keep and bear arms.”
If we had an amendment that said “keep and wear suits,” and we banned all polyester suits, the right to keep and wear suits would still be intact. Not infringed. Not endangered, etc. etc. Because the right was never about unlimited consumer choice. Consumer choice never had anything to do with it. It was about the ability to keep and wear suits, etc.
A sane society must constantly deal with competing conceptions of rights, responsibilities and desires. It’s pure madness that we allow a fringe group of gun zealots to take away the normal, natural role of society in adjudicating between competing claims. It’s pure insanity that we allow their absolutism to destroy all vestiges of common sense, give and take. We have allowed them to take control and destroy all attempts at sensible compromise and sensible resolutions to those competing desires — and for what? For what reason? So they can play Rambo on weekends, while 33,000 Americans die each year from guns?
On Rothko: I wrote this for my own website back in 2008:
All art is paradox. But Rothko, perhaps more than any other modern painter, embraced the paradox and threw it profoundly in our faces.
The canvas is flat. You can’t enter it. You can’t go through it, if it’s hanging on the wall. At least without injury and perhaps a heavy bill from the gallery. But Rothko continuously tells the audience to do just that. Embrace the painting, enter it, walk into it, let it engulf you and torture you and shake you. Shake the core of you. He wants the painting to be a plane and an entrance way in the same bright moment. Flat and omnipresent. Pressed against the wall as it surrounds you. And he wants you to accept the paradox and reject it long enough to succumb.
“We favor the simple expression of complex thought. We are for the large shape because it has the impact of the unequivocal. We wish to reassert the picture plane. We are for flat forms because they destroy illusion and reveal truth.”
Mark Rothko was born in Dvinsk, Russia (now Latvia) in 1903. Rather, Marcus Rothkowitz was born in that place and time. He became Mark Rothko later in life. At the age of 10, he left Russia with part of his family to join the other part in America, arriving at Ellis Island and eventually Portland, Oregon. The culture shock must have been tremendous. From a life filled with the constant threat from Cossacks and the Czar, to one with much more mundane worries. He did, however, have to grow up in a hurry, as his father, Jacob, died not long after their arrival in America. His life from that point on became more and more complex . . .
. . . If one looks only at his most famous paintings, the floating blocks of luminous color, the large canvasses he wants us to enter and celebrate, that person might mistake the surface for stasis, for the lack of evolution and emotion, for a ground that never changed for Rothko. Nothing could be further from the truth. Not only did his intellectual rationale for his art evolve greatly over time, taking him from an intense study of myths, archetypes, Jung and Freud to Nietzsche and beyond . . . his artistic methods and subject matter evolved as well. Few artists, in fact, changed as dramatically as Rothko, if we look at his career from the 30s until his suicide in 1970. Another paradox. The flat, solid blocks of color, forever floating, and a whirlwind of change before and after.
“I am not an abstractionist. … I am not interested in the relationship of colour or form or anything else. … I’m interested only in expressing basic human emotions — tragedy, ecstasy, doom and so on — and the fact that a lot of people break down and cry when confronted with my pictures show that I communicate those basic human emotions. … The people who weep before my pictures are having the same religious experience I had when I painted them. And if you, as you say, are moved only by their color relationships, then you miss the point!”
I have sat for many an endless moment in front of his paintings, most recently in Washington D.C. Rather than make me weep, they generally bring me tremendous waves of calm and peace. Even though I’m guessing he wasn’t shooting for that reaction, he never did want to limit them or define them or jail them. Enter the painting was all. Only connect was all.
“Art to me is an anecdote of the spirit, and the only means of making concrete the purpose of its varied quickness and stillness.”
Of course, it’s impossible to sum up a great artist. And rather ridiculous to try. But I think, in a nutshell, Rothko sought something similar to other great modernists like Nietzsche, Van Gogh, Pound, Eliot and Joyce. To reinvent myths, reinvigorate them, and introduce them back into the cultural stream. Most of the great modernists seemed to want this, saw this as vital, essential for our health and survival. Some thought this could be done only through collecting ruins, fragments, the remnant of civilization. They sensed a scattering and a loss of cultural potency that could never be reversed. Others thought the disorder and fragmentation could be overcome. I think Rothko falls into the latter category, and his floating blocks of luminous color contain the detritus of civilizations long gone. Paradoxically, they surround us with the future.
WV makes an excellent point above, one that hit me right after I read your post, bnw.
It’s a major misconception about abstract artists that they do X because they don’t have the “talent” to do Y. Y being, usually, copying nature like a Xerox machine, give or take.
Pretty much every single great painter or sculptor generally called “abstract” worked for years and years to get to that place. They started their training doing “representational” art, copied the masters, copied, perhaps, their teachers, drew, painted, sculpted from “life,” and then decided to go in a different direction. They didn’t do it because they had no other choice. They did it because the artist in them pretty much forced them to. They were driven to express themselves in a different manner, one outside the contemporary box. They did what all great artists do, in all the arts: Add another step on the ladder of human/expressive possibilities. Build upon the past and carve out their own place in the progression. Add their name to the legacy of the new, built upon the old.
Also: in reality, all art is “abstract.” All of it is an abstraction from internal/external “nature.” A vision informed by both, simultaneously. Emphases are generally quite different. But all artists attempt to render their personal vision which comes from within.
IOW, “abstract” artists render their own internal vision, informed by the external and internal. It takes just as much “talent” to do what, say, Kandinsky or Picasso did, as opposed to, say, Raphael. The felicity of their expression, their vision, should tell the tale. Not whether or not someone can “copy” things from the external world like a photo — that guy on NPR can do that, and, to me, his stuff isn’t “art.”
To me, in the post-photographic world, the “abstract” is more and more important. If someone wants photographic “realism,” for example, why not just look at photos? Painting and sculpture can give us something photos — with exceptions — can’t generally do: Bring us a direct vision of internal life, connect us with that vision, directly.
