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Billy_T
ParticipantChatting: In the context of the real world . . . yes. It doesn’t matter if this or that person won’t deal with criticism about their chosen candidate. At least not enough to worry about. But in the context of a political forum, it can make fruitful discussion very difficult. Often pointless.
Which reminds me of a very funny back and forth between Varys and Tyrion on the road to Meereen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AC64i75Rvc
In paraphrase:
Varys: Are we really going to spend all of our time talking about futility?
Tryion: You’re right. There isn’t any point.;>)
Billy_T
ParticipantIsn’t that bound to stir a fight? I think everyone knows where everyone stands. Bnw is entitled to his response. We’re not going to badger him into agreeing with us, and aggression just begets more aggression. Fair enough?
ZN, it wasn’t meant to stir a fight. But I probably should have held fire, and will try to do so going forward. That said, my response to “yawn” was more a result of a build up than that particular word. It’s a response to the sum total of any and all criticism of Trump. I just wish his supporters would deal with the substance of that criticism, and not automatically dismiss it all. I just wish they’d be willing to debate that substance, instead of acting as if it’s not worth discussing — that Trump’s criticism of others is worthy, but not criticism of Trump, etc. etc.
Anyway, I can’t wait until this mess is over. Worst election season since 1968, IMO.
Billy_T
ParticipantWell, bnw, you might not care. You might think all criticism of Trump is meaningless. But a lot of people do care. They don’t dismiss all criticism of Trump automatically. They don’t close their eyes and ears to all of it. They investigate, see him on TV, listen to him on the radio, try to sift through his word salad. They read his incredibly vague policy ideas, his tendency to avoid all details, and note that none of his policies could possibly work. They also take him at his word, and see him as a racist, xenophobe and Mussolini-wannabe. They see him as a serial liar and someone who has exploited bankruptcy laws and protections to fill his own pockets, and that he has hundreds of outstanding lawsuits against him due to his crooked business practices.
Even his own party has been highly critical of him. GOP delegates called him a fascist today, at the convention.
It may be a big yawn for you, but a lot of people don’t see it that way. Me, personally? I think he’s either a baby fascist or plays one on TV for votes and for personal enrichment. He’s taken his cue from George Wallace, among others, seeking to whip up white fears of black and brown people. Basically, I see him as a vile human being. Easily one of the worst people to ever run for president — and that’s saying a lot, because America has a long history of rotten people vying for the presidency.
I don’t like Clinton, either. Can’t stand either party. But Trump is clearly the greater evil this time around.
Billy_T
ParticipantSome other relevant links:
George Monbiot is one of the best writers around, when it comes to the environment. Truly worth bookmarking and following:
This is also a great site.
From it’s About page:
About/Contact
CLIMATE & CAPITALISM is an ecosocialist journal, reflecting the viewpoint of environmental Marxism. It has three goals:
To provide news and analysis to inform, educate and develop the green left;
To contribute to building an international movement against capitalist destruction of the environment and for ecosocialism;
To encourage and facilitate collaboration and exchanges of views among socialists and ecology activists.Very good, concise book in the topic of enviromentalism:
Billy_T
ParticipantMore proof of the economic benefits of wind power, from the Guardian:
Companies want to reduce their emissions and they want access to reliable, inexpensive power. Companies want to know how to achieve these two goals in a way that is quick and efficient. For many of them, wind is the answer. It’s inexpensive and emissions-free (aside from initial manufacturing and installation and service) and it gives the companies control over their energy supply.
Globally, the average cost of wind is $83 per megawatt-hour. This is the levelized cost of electrical delivery. How does it compare to other energy sources? Well the averages for coal and gas are $84 and $98, respectively. In the USA, gas is slightly cheaper than wind but this is the only large economy where that is the case. As a comparison, solar photovoltaic energy averages $122 globally for each MW-hour.
The above, in its comparisons, does not take into account the massive add-on costs for fossil fuels, via their pollution and waste. Those costs are externalized and paid by taxpayers and nature — paid for not just in money, but in planet destruction, sickness, death and species extinctions.
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This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by
Billy_T.
Billy_T
ParticipantNo it isn’t economical now. I’ve been to wind farms on three continents and none are economical . It is always a government boondoggle to dupe the easily duped. The maintenance costs are high over time. Nothing compares to coal.
Yes, they’re economical, and I provided proof of that. Wind, solar and other renewables all are cheap now, and getting cheaper. They are already — and have been for years — cheaper than coal, from the user and the producer end. And they don’t kill workers or make them deathly ill like coal has done for centuries.
And if we add the massive costs due to environmental damage, and damage to human health, the “value” of renewables skyrockets even more. Backing coal or any fossil fuel is madness. It’s a death sentence of the planet, which means a death sentence for us.
Billy_T
ParticipantSounds incredibly reasonable.
Demilitarization, heavy training in deescalation — they’re suppose to be “peace officers” — and independent review. I think these top the list. But all ten are vital.
And by independent review . . . they don’t mean adding another branch to the police force, like Internal Affairs. It shouldn’t be anything remotely connected. And that would mean it must be outside the local or state prosecutorial realm as well. Not under the various DAs, etc. etc. who, right now, tend to go pretty easy on police.
Billy_T
ParticipantIt’s sheer capitalist propaganda, from the fossil fuel industry, to say renewables cost too much, or that “Well, it’s nice technology. But it’s not practical for now. Maybe in twenty years.”
Nawwww. It’s here now. It’s cheap now. It’s doable now. And it has been for years and years. Big Oil and Big Coal see it as a major threat, so they’ve been busy dismissing it for decades. They can’t do this anymore. Too many countries are using it with success — to lower costs for government and private citizens and improve environmental conditions.
Imagine your car using the sun to power up while you’re at work. Imagine the same for trains and planes and ships. The only reason this isn’t commonplace right now is because Big Oil and its allies have successfully crushed or bought up enough start ups, and purchased enough political power, to block this from happening. We could have had solar-powered transport decades ago if there had been the political will and the strength to say hell no to Big Oil and Big Coal.
Billy_T
ParticipantGermany has made huge strides, too:
Germany Just Got Almost All of Its Power From Renewable Energy
Clean power supplied almost all of Germany’s power demand for the first time on Sunday, marking a milestone for Chancellor Angela Merkel’s “Energiewende” policy to boost renewables while phasing out nuclear and fossil fuels.
Solar and wind power peaked at 2 p.m. local time on Sunday, allowing renewables to supply 45.5 gigawatts as demand was 45.8 gigawatts, according to provisional data by Agora Energiewende, a research institute in Berlin. Power prices turned negative during several 15-minute periods yesterday, dropping as low as minus 50 euros ($57) a megawatt-hour, according to data from Epex Spot.
Billy_T
ParticipantIf Uruguay can do this, we can. And better, because we’re richer, with far more resources. And if we can do it, and we can, then we can help the entire world do this.
Billy_T
ParticipantSome more from the article:
Along with reliable wind – at an average of about 8mph – the main attraction for foreign investors like Enercon is a fixed price for 20 years that is guaranteed by the state utility. Because maintenance costs are low (just 10 staff) and stable, this guarantees a profit.
As a result, foreign firms are lining up to secure windfarm contracts. The competition is pushing down bids, cutting electricity generating costs by more than 30% over the past three years. Christian Schaefer, supervising technician at Enercon said his company was hoping to expand and another German company Nordex is already building an even bigger plant further north along route five. Trucks carrying turbines, towers and blades are now a common sight on the country’s roads.
Compared to most other small countries with high proportions of renewables, the mix is diverse. While Paraguay, Bhutan and Lesotho rely almost solely on hydro and Iceland on geothermal, Uruguay has a spread that makes it more resilient to changes in the climate.
Windfarms such as Peralta now feed into hydropower plants so that dams can maintain their reservoirs longer after rainy seasons. According to Méndez, this has reduced vulnerability to drought by 70% – no small benefit considering a dry year used to cost the country nearly 2% of GDP.
This is not the only benefit for the economy. “For three years we haven’t imported a single kilowatt hour,” Méndez says. “We used to be reliant on electricity imports from Argentina, but now we export to them. Last summer, we sold a third of our power generation to them.”
There is still a lot to do. The transport sector still depends on oil (which accounts for 45% of the total energy mix). But industry – mostly agricultural processing – is now powered predominantly by biomass cogeneration plants.
Billy_T
ParticipantI think alternative energies are fine for those that wish to pay the exorbitant costs thereof.
There are no “exorbitant costs.” They’re actually cheaper than fossil fuels. If it weren’t for capitalism’s stranglehold on the world, and Big Oil’s stranglehold on the energy sector, individual citizens could actually have net minuses for their home energy costs, and our cars and all modes of transportation could run for free.
Uruguay makes dramatic shift to nearly 95% electricity from clean energy
As the world gathers in Paris for the daunting task of switching from fossil fuels to renewable energy, one small country on the other side of the Atlantic is making that transition look childishly simple and affordable.
In less than 10 years, Uruguay has slashed its carbon footprint without government subsidies or higher consumer costs, according to the country’s head of climate change policy, Ramón Méndez.
In fact, he says that now that renewables provide 94.5% of the country’s electricity, prices are lower than in the past relative to inflation. There are also fewer power cuts because a diverse energy mix means greater resilience to droughts.
It was a very different story just 15 years ago. Back at the turn of the century oil accounted for 27% of Uruguay’s imports and a new pipeline was just about to begin supplying gas from Argentina.
Which countries are doing the most to stop dangerous global warming?
Read moreNow the biggest item on import balance sheet is wind turbines, which fill the country’s ports on their way to installation.
Biomass and solar power have also been ramped up. Adding to existing hydropower, this means that renewables now account for 55% of the country’s overall energy mix (including transport fuel) compared with a global average share of 12%.
Despite its relatively small population of just 3.4 million, Uruguay has earned a remarkable amount of global kudos in recent years. It enacted groundbreaking marijuana legalisation, pioneered stringent tobacco control, and introduced some of the most liberal policies in Latin America on abortion and same-sex marriage.
Now, it is being recognised for progress on decarbonising its economy. It has been praised by the World Bank and the Economic commission for Latin America and the Caribbean, and the WWF last year named Uruguay among its “Green Energy Leaders”, proclaiming: “The country is defining global trends in renewable energy investment.”
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This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by
Billy_T.
Billy_T
ParticipantI don’t know what righties, centrists, or liberals think of Pence.
But for leftists…Pence is a freeee-keeeng nightmare.
And I don’t mean he scares me or is formidable, I mean he is all horrorshow.
I have family in Indiana. Pence is vile. He is the hardcore koch brothers ideologue type. If this were a movie, he would be the loudmouth asshole politician who spouts off in an early scene so we would cheer in a later scene when the dinosaurs eat him.
I thought it was a done deal. Though Trump apparently tried to dump him late last night. Changed his mind. Was confused about what to do in light of the lone wolf attack in Nice.
Yeah, he’s vile. A rabid-right religious zealot/bigot, too. I’d be interested in hearing what Trump supporters think of him as well.
Billy_T
ParticipantYes, BT, Friedmen makes me crazy. I can only read him once or twice a year.
And notice how breezily he writes about “managing” weak countries. As if thats the US Government’s job. Can you IMAGINE what the NY Times would say if
other countries talked openly about ‘managing’ America ?Empire. Imperialism. It makes me ill.
w
vAgreed. It’s not our job, or place, or right, or business. And, of course, imperialism isn’t just horrific for other nations; it ends up being horrific for Americans too. Blowback, endless wars, the concentration of resources in the MIC instead of education, health care, the environment, food safety, clean water, etc. etc.
It’s dead wrong and profoundly immoral that we do this to others. But it also ends up hurting “we the people.”
Time for the empire to die. No more hegemons. I don’t know how to accomplish that . . . but history shows us they’re always massively destructive, on the way up and on the way down. Will we ever reach the point where we say no to them, period? No gods, no masters at home, no masters far away, no nation-state masters, no group of nation-state masters, no economic masters, etc. etc.
Billy_T
ParticipantWV,
I’m guessing this is your (unsaid) point. But, just in case:
He’s describing the Democratic Party. That’s the center-right party he says he wants. It already exists.
So, that means the center-left party should be the Greens, not the Dems, and the GOP should disappear into the dustbin of history.
That said, we need more than just two parties. We need parties to the left of the Greens, too. An expanded, expanding Socialist Alternative, for example. A libertarian socialist party — though the very structure of political parties likely goes against the core philosophies making up LS . . . . which you and I share. So, maybe not a “party” per se. But a strong, grass-roots movement — one that exists to keep political parties honest, perhaps. To keep them focused on “the people,” instead of their own power, etc.
Lotsa other possibilities for new parties and coalitions. Maybe a party of Rams fans, the Constantly Disappointed but Eternally Hopeful Party, or something.
Anyway . . . . I think Friedman’s missing the obvious.
July 16, 2016 at 9:03 am in reply to: GOP platform includes getting rid of national parks and forests #48850Billy_T
ParticipantTo me, the threat against our national parks is a threat against quality of life itself. It’s a huge leap toward closing off most of nature to those who are rich enough to afford their own views, their thousand acres, their streams, lakes, mountains, etc.
It’s easily one of the ugliest ideas that the odious Republicans have ever come up with, and they’ve come up with thousands of them.
While this gets almost no press, to me, it’s far more important than things like same-sex marriage rights, though I support that 100% — and we obviously can tackle both issues at the same time. But this gets down to the very root of our existence, the land itself, who it belongs to, and our ability to take in the natural beauty that surrounds us.
One of my novels — which still needs revision — is set in a future world which is all private. There is no public sector. We have corporate states. And everyone has to pay to move from one private zone to the next. No public parks. No access to anything you don’t own, unless you pay the fare, etc. It’s a Sci-Fi novel, but it seems real life keeps catching up to Science Fiction.
Billy_T
ParticipantAnd of course people can squander opportunities, and so congrats to the people who did well for themselves (which is all of us on this forum, each in different ways, but still there are some who put in the extra mile). So I take nothing away from any individual when I say all this. BUT the MYTH that just “working hard, making right choices” is all there is to this? It is precisely that, a myth. Everyone here was directly helped in their educations by this or that state or federal policy. It’s just that for some reason, we make that fact invisible and convince ourselves we did more and others don’t deserve things, when a lot of that ACTUALLY is the truth that (a) we were helped and (b) our circumstances gave us opportunities.
I agree with all of this.
___Oh, and a bit of post-post-cleanup for me. Just in case it’s not clear: when I talk about education, I’m largely talking about how it should be, not necessarily how it is. If I misread bnw, major apologies, but it sounds like he thinks education should be in the service of producing workers for society. He may have just been saying that this is what it’s set up to do in reality — and I agree with that, though it does other things too. He may actually think this is wrong and so on. IMO, our current education system leans far too heavily toward producing good little worker bees, and good little consumers, and is becoming more and more corporatized by the day. Our universities, too. Sometimes with subtlety. Sometimes like a bull in a China shop, with people like the Koch brothers buying up universities to indoctrinate kids with propertarian beliefs.
Anyway . . . just wanted to try to clear that up. My view of how things should be is that we teach to think, teach to help provoke boundless creativity, independence of mind, fearless self-expression, fearless questing for new horizons. Etc. etc.
Not that this is the way, necessarily, that things are set up in reality.
Billy_T
ParticipantAnd you’re forgetting that others helped pay your way throughout your life. You went to public schools, right? Why should people who have no kids pay for your schooling? But they do. They did. They have for more than two centuries. That’s what sane societies do.
Mandatory schooling is so society can have a steady supply of capable people to go into the necessary disciplines required for modern life. Those disciplines are used by people who do not have kids too.
I don’t see education that way at all. It’s not there to herd the masses into becoming useful fodder for capitalists, or mass consumers. It’s there to teach children to think for themselves, learn to think critically, independently, and decide what they want to do with their own lives on their own. It’s there to radically open their horizons and give them the tools they need to reach their fullest potential. Colleges and universities further expand this, open up new worlds for students they might never see without it, and you benefit from this expansion of cultural, social and intellectual horizons as well. We all do.
I still have no idea why you would be against pitching in a few extra dollars to make colleges and universities free for everyone. If it were up to me, the vast majority of the costs would be borne by the rich, primarily because they’ve seen the vast majority of all tax cuts since 1964, both in total dollars and in the steep drop in their marginal and effective rates. And they can afford it. Your share would be less than minimal.
From the Atlantic, on total costs for this:
Update—Friday Jan. 3, 4:31 PM: One more update to answer another good question I’ve received. Technically, you could say the additional cost of making college tuition free would be even cheaper than $62.6 billion. How come? Because most Pell Grant money is already spent at public colleges. In 2011 – 2012, state school students received $21.8 billion in grants. So, if you subtract that from the total needed to completely eliminate tuition, it the sum would be closer to $40 billion. (Apologies for not teasing that point out earlier. I’d noted it in a previous article and didn’t think to repeat it.)
Billy_T
ParticipantWell, in context, this is what I wrote:
I’m not a believer, but I think the saying, “There but for the grace of god go I” is always in play.
I don’t believe in the existence of any god, hence the lowercase.
Billy_T
ParticipantI don’t denigrate others for their choices. I simply shouldn’t be forced to pay for their mistakes.
You’re assuming they did make mistakes, in this case. Why? How on earth would you know? And who are you to say their choice to major in this or that is a mistake? Or that their choice to go to X school instead of Y school is?
And you’re forgetting that others helped pay your way throughout your life. You went to public schools, right? Why should people who have no kids pay for your schooling? But they do. They did. They have for more than two centuries. That’s what sane societies do.
You travel on nothing but public roads and bridges all your life. You eat food inspected by the public sector. You use airports that wouldn’t exist without the public sector. You’re using an invention of the public sector right now, the Internet. Touch screen tech was invented by the public sector too. As was GPS and Satellite tech. Most every tech innovation in the last century came from the public sector, as do 75% of our new drugs.
No business in America could survive a day without public sector support, protection, R and D and bailouts. None could start up without it. Again, taxpayers have pitched in to try to make this society better going back more than 200 years. They’ve helped provide a foundation for you. Why should you suddenly be able to jump off the train and say you won’t help the next generation? Again, it’s not as if it’s a lot. Your tax contributions are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the cost. It sounds like you think it’s your burden to carry the load for others all by yourself.
That’s obviously not the case.
Billy_T
Participant“It is always about choices.”
Yep. And I made some real doozies when I was younger. Set us back quite a bit. Almost back to home plate.
But then again, if you’re born a one-armed, two-toed sloth with no teeth you’re pretty well screwed no matter what you do.
You bring up another really important point, Ozone. That ability to recover from bad choices. Some of us get to do this. Some of us don’t. And that’s dependent to a massive degree on where we start out in life. Our class, our race, our gender, etc. And all too many Americans who get back up seem to forget the helping hands they had along the way. Family, friends, networks, society, government — the whole gamut.
I made a lot of rotten choices, too. But I was very lucky to be born into the family I was. Like bnw’s, we didn’t have much in the way of material wealth. But we had a strong family tradition of education, pride in its importance, pride in the cultural accomplishments of our forebears — especially in the arts, but in the civic realm as well.
And I didn’t always see this at the time. But it was there, kind of like an invisible life raft. And other times, it was very visible and palpably there. I had my share of times on the edge of things. Right on the edge. And without that invisible life raft, I just don’t know.
There are tens of millions of Americans who don’t have anything like that. I’m not a believer, but I think the saying, “There but for the grace of god go I” is always in play.
Billy_T
ParticipantApparently our making good choices for the long term didn’t sit well with those people accustomed to following the carefree spending high expectations in fun keeping up with the Joneses. It is always about choices.
But all choices are made within a certain environment and environmental conditions, with certain natural boundaries, due to the luck of the draw. All choices are made on foundations that range from impoverished to obscenely wealthy. All choices are made within environments that help or hinder or just outright stop those choices from taken effect.
Some folks are born with wings, others with chains, and everything in between.
The problem is, as ZN mentions, when we think we achieve X because we make “the right choices,” while others “fail” because they made the wrong ones. It’s usually the case that they made really, really good choices too, but their environments, their birth lottery, put them so far back behind the eight ball, it didn’t matter.
Again, it’s cool to be proud of your choices. But why denigrate others for not fitting into your notions of “success”? Or for fitting into your notions of “failure”? Why assume everyone has an equal shot in this country, when that’s clearly not the case? Or that they didn’t make really good choices too?
Billy_T
ParticipantAccess. It’s about access. And access to what is vital, too. All across the board, from education, to healthy food, safe water, safe streets, the best schools, healthcare, cultural venues, travel opportunities, the “right people.” etc. etc. etc.
Access to really great stuff, versus access to middling stuff, versus access to less than mediocre stuff, versus access to a constant battle for survival that leaves children permanently damaged and literally suffering from PTSD.
We are so unequal as a society, to me, it’s pretty ludicrous to pat ourselves on the back without taking all of that into account.
Those are my two cents, anyway.
Billy_T
ParticipantAnother key here, IMO.
It’s one thing to celebrate your accomplishments. We all should do that. It’s still another to say we did this on our own, and the birth lottery had nothing to do with it; our parents had nothing to do with it; their parents and so on. That the environment we were born into was irrelevant.
It’s still another to say, well, I did it, so everyone can. And because I did it, that makes me incredibly virtuous, and everyone who “fails” to do what I did should be ashamed and doesn’t deserve any support at all. Because in America, anyone can do what I did, bucko!! It’s the golden land of opportunity, donncha know!
Billy_T
ParticipantAmerica is easily the most unequal society in the developed world. We don’t have anything remotely close to a whisper of a hint of “equal opportunity.” People inherent a multitude of advantages and/or disadvantages, which they had nothing to do with, and this determines to a very, very large extent one’s chances in the world. At the very least, it overdetermines one’s access to the fruits of society, which are already distributed in a profoundly unequal fashion.
This is networked, integrated, throughout society. Those with great advantages not only have access to the best opportunities society can bring, they are also born into networks that either control or set the codes for access and opportunity.
And people are also born into wildly varied circumstances which help us navigate these networks, hinder us, or outright block us from them.
The old baseball metaphor is apt — but it should be tweaked some more. Some people are born on third base and when they cross home plate, they think they’ve hit a home run. But it’s even worse than that. Some people are born inches from home plate, and they think they are so awesome that no one helped them get to home plate. Others are born miles from the stadium, with iron chains on their legs. They have so many obstacles in their way, they can’t even get to the stadium to take their turn.
Class is all-encompassing in America, and all too many don’t see it. And then there’s inherited advantages and disadvantages based on race and gender, too. But I think in most situations throughout our lives, class is the most determinative. Encounters with police, etc. etc. are a different issue altogether.
Billy_T
ParticipantSo the point- student loans and who pays them off- the borrower or the taxpayer, i.e., the rest of us- leaves a foul taste in my mouth. We played by the rules. And in my opinion, this explosion of student debt we see today can be laid squarely on uncapped, uncollateralized loans and the universities that exploit this by raising tuition accordingly. Market forces are taken out of the equation entirely. Cap those loans and see how fast tuition rates drop. What are they going to do? Close their doors?
Hey, Ozone, hope all is well.
Thing is, even if you played by the rules, you still benefited tremendously from massive investments by other taxpayers, past and present. You couldn’t have done what you did without trillions spent on infrastructure, libraries, museums, schools, etc. etc. and the whole intellectual legacy thing going back centuries. None of us does what we do in a vacuum, and I think Americans are too often barraged with false messages of our supposed exceptionalism and independence, hacking our way through the wilderness, alone, as we face lions, tigers and bears with our muskets and axes.
We’re literally all in this together, no matter how much we want to deny it.
So, it really comes down to where do you want to draw the line. Let’s say you don’t have any kids. You might want to say, “I don’t think I should have to pay for K-12 schools, teachers, books” etc. etc. We can find all kinds of similar situations where one’s personal circumstances make them ask “Why should I have to pay for X? I don’t use it!!” But that’s not how a society functions. And those same people would likely be pretty upset if others said the same and that led to the end of some good or service they wanted, etc.
Anyway, beyond that, two things: The main reason costs have skyrocketed for kids is the massive reduction in state support for tuition. It’s gone in most states from 80-100% to the low teens.
And, two, not everything in life should be subject to “market forces.” There should be realms where we escape from those demands. Like education, health care, energy, food, water, etc. Necessities and staples, at least, should be non-profit.
(Of course, I’d rather see the entire economy non-profit and fully democratized, but that’s another story).
Just my two cents.
July 15, 2016 at 12:45 pm in reply to: "One of the cops under my command is a young Asian officer" #48801Billy_T
ParticipantZN,
Fair enough.
I need to find new ways to unexpress things.
;>)
Billy_T
ParticipantNot necessarily useless degrees. Simply a degree from a school so expensive they couldn’t afford to repay the debt.
Right now, that’s most schools. Even state schools. Those of us from earlier generations had a much easier time of that, as mentioned. And we used to have free state colleges as recently as the 1970s — in New York and California. Massive tax cuts for the rich forced states to slash their support for higher ed, and here we are. Millennials now are guaranteed tens of thousands in debt when they leave school — again, even state colleges.
And you aren’t being asked to fund the expensive, private ones by anyone anyway. Sanders’ plan, for instance, only involves public universities and colleges. Clinton has moved in that direction as well.
No one is asking you to pay more taxes to support matriculating to Harvard, etc. etc.
Billy_T
ParticipantEither you can afford the education or you can’t. Real world difficulties result from never understanding that simple concept.
Also, the inability to afford it is, of course, the point. We want to make sure everyone can. You say you shouldn’t have to “bail them out,” blah blah blah.
You can’t have it both ways. The issue is that we, as a society, make sure it’s possible for any and every American to go to college or trade school if they want to. Money should not be a barrier. Ever. Having it as a barrier just expands the already massive gap between the haves and the have nots. It just sets the privilege of the few in stone and prevents the many from achieving their individual potential.
Again, I can’t understand why you would be against opening up educational opportunities to everyone, regardless of ability to pay.
Billy_T
ParticipantCartoon of a cartoon? Either you can afford the education or you can’t. Real world difficulties result from never understanding that simple concept.
Yes, cartoon of a cartoon. Your description of these mythical students who, unlike you, lack all connection to reality, have their heads permanently in the clouds, and selfishly choose “useless” degrees, because they don’t know what it means to be responsible for oneself — again, unlike you.
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This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by
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