What Sanders needs to do now

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  • #111930
    waterfield
    Participant

    It wasn’t just african american voters who carried the new “movement” for Biden. It was across the board with suburban women, college educated white men, older voters, etc. What did Sanders in Tuesday is something I’ve been preaching for some time-while young people tend to become excited over one candidate (group think -its cool, etc), they protest, attend rallies, and participate in “events”. Remember Berkeley in the late 60s. Its all fun. But they tend not to vote ! But Sanders is not done. A couple of things can shoot him right up to where he was before. Namely, somehow getting the message to his young followers that they have to do more than simply “gather” and actually take the time to stand in line and vote. But he also has to be able to get his message across to a wide spectrum of voters such as Biden has recently done-not just youngsters. Finally, Biden could easily screw up in face to face debates with Sanders who much like Trump knows how to answer questions even though he has no facts but he does stay on point. Indeed I would much rather see Sanders debate Trump than Biden. Trump could not get Biden off his same message. But as the Clinton Trump debates showed the “winner” of debates don’t necessarily win the overall contest. Trump will get ugly in the debates and Sanders could do the same-but not Biden. Nevertheless, I don’t think Sanders can beat Trump. Young people-who don’t vote -don’t care about the label “socialism” because they have no historical perspective but the rest of our voters do and what won the House in 2018 will be turned on its head and Trump’s add will say that with a government takeover your private health will be in jeopardy. Game over !

    #111931
    zn
    Moderator

    It wasn’t just african american voters who carried the new “movement” for Biden.

    W as put that’s a false narrative. And we already know it is. It may be the line being pushed by mainstream media, which I bet is probably where you got this, but it’s false. (Surprise, imagine mainstream media misinforming people.)

    This is what actually happened. Sanders leads nationally with all minority voters.

    Where he DOES NOT lead is with a subset of older southern blacks.

    The mainstream media may not look into that, but, you should.

    It’s actually detailed here, among other places: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/democracy-now-discussion-sanders-biden-and-race/

    In fact that was being discussed last spring:

    ***

    Joe Biden Has Support From Older Black Voters. Is It Enough?

    May 7, 2019

    link https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/07/us/politics/joe-biden-black-voters-south-carolina.html

    #111932
    zn
    Moderator

    Short version

    Long version

    #111933
    Cal
    Participant

    W as put that’s a false narrative. And we already know it is. It may be the line being pushed by mainstream media, which I bet is probably where you got this, but it’s false. (Surprise, imagine mainstream media misinforming people.)

    This is what actually happened. Sanders leads nationally with all minority voters.

    Where he DOES NOT lead is with a subset of older southern blacks.

    After Tuesday, I don’t know how you can say that Bernie doesn’t have a problem with black voters. There’s a ton of data, that shows over and over that black voters are voting for mainstream, establishment dems like Biden or Clinton in 2016.

    Just look at the exit poll data I just pulled from WaPo. State after state, Biden kicked Bernie’s ass with the black voters. Here’s some actual numbers, & I was generous and lumped Warren’s voters in with Bernie’s numbers.

    North Carolina: Biden 62% – Bernie/Warren 29%
    Texas: Biden 58% – Bernie/Warren 21%
    Virginia: Biden 69% – Bernie/Warren 22%
    Alabama: Biden 72% – Bernie/Warren 14%
    Even in California, Bernie didn’t win black voters. Biden 37% – Bernie/Warren 25%.

    So the idea that Bernie can’t win the black vote is not some misguided MSM narrative. That idea is based on result after result.

    If you look at the data, it’s clear this race is over. Bernie will win a number of remaining states (Washington, Oregon) but he’s not going to pile up enough huge victories to catch up to Biden, especially with all of the media support and momentum that Biden has behind him now.

    #111934
    zn
    Moderator

    After Tuesday, I don’t know how you can say that Bernie doesn’t have a problem with black voters.

    Southern and older. That was true of Biden before the election. Same data shows younger black voters support him.

    And you list only southern states.

    #111935
    wv
    Participant

    After Tuesday, I don’t know how you can say that Bernie doesn’t have a problem with black voters.

    Southern and older. That was true of Biden before the election. Same data shows younger black voters support him.

    And you list only southern states.

    =====================

    Yeah its more nuanced than the MSM’s version.

    But Many African-Americans are apparently voting for Biden because of the connection with Obama. I dont think there’s much Bernie can do about that. I see all kinds of leftists advising him to ‘change his message’ somehow to fight Biden or attract Black voters — but I dunno what else he can do. Biden just has the Obama-Advantage, in the primaries, with Older and Southern Black-Voters.

    We KNOW those same voters would vote for Bernie if it was Trump vs Bernie.

    w
    v

    #111938
    wv
    Participant

    March 10th
    —————
    Michigan 125
    Misouri 68
    Mississ 36
    North Dakota 14
    Washington 89
    ============

    March 17
    ——-
    Florida 219
    Ohio 136
    Illinois 155
    Ariz 67

    ———–
    April 28
    NY 274
    Pennsylv 186

    #111939
    Eternal Ramnation
    Participant

    Biden is still Biden and his dementia is worse than ever. The establishment keeps propping him up he cannot string two sentences together. He can’t stop lying , training for civil rights marches in black churches never happened, marching for civil rights never happened , arrested in apartheid South Africa trying to visit Mandela never happened. Mistook his sister for his wife happened on Tuesday forgot the words of the Declaration Of Independence about 5 words in happened earlier… Tuesday. How do you think a 2 hour debate one on one with Sanders is going to go for him? Lets move ahead give him the dem nomination first debate against Trump. What’s the under / over at for Trump mentioning Hunter Biden in his opening ? How many mentions will it take to trigger a classic Biden freakout that disqualifies him. He’s already poking and shoving people who ask him difficult questions. For establishment dems business has never been better they’re fine with Biden losing to Trump but they know they’re over the day Sanders wins. Oh yeah the groping hair sniffing cheek stroking creepy Biden is coming back as well.

    #111942
    Cal
    Participant

    Southern and older. That was true of Biden before the election. Same data shows younger black voters support him.

    And you list only southern states.

    I did list California. And exit polls also indicate that Biden beat Bernie straight up with black voters in Minnesota and Massachusetts.

    I don’t know what age range you are using, but right now it’s almost meaningless to say it’s only “older black, Southern voters.” Bernie is losing by more than 2 to 1 margin in the southern states. He will not win with that type of support. Maybe in 4 more years a progressive candidate will have a chance with black voters–but now? No way. It’s not happening.

    I’m not trying to dismiss Bernie or anything. I like him and I think Biden 2020 could easily be a repeat of 2016 when Trump branded Hillary as just another person to prop up the establishment.

    I’m just pointing out that Bernie has almost no chance to win this primary. And a big piece of that is black voters, especially southern black voters, support Biden instead Bernie by a huge percentage.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by Cal.
    #111944
    waterfield
    Participant

    W as put that’s a false narrative. And we already know it is. It may be the line being pushed by mainstream media, which I bet is probably where you got this, but it’s false. (Surprise, imagine mainstream media misinforming people.)

    I have a sincere question. You may believe the answer is so obvious that what you wrote above is redundant. To me it is not so obvious. In fact my question is this: You clearly believe the main stream media is intentionally misinforming the public. My question is why ? The easy answer is “well-they are owned by huge corporations”. But CBS, NBC have always been owned by enormous corporations. Do you believe Walter Cronkite (CBS) intentionally misinformed the public in reporting the news; what about Chet Huntley (NBC) or David Brinkley (NBC) or Edward R Murrow ? Fox news is a different animal in that it it is part of Fox 21st Century a corporation owned and controlled by the Murdoch family. The “WHY” can be explained by Murdoch but I still don’t understand the “WHY” when it comes to ABC, NBC, CBS-which is my idea of main stream media.

    #111947
    zn
    Moderator

    In fact my question is this: You clearly believe the main stream media is intentionally misinforming the public.

    I believe no such thing.

    The mainstream media, when it comes to political issues, is just stuck in its own biases and misperceptions. But that’s traditional and old and this is far from the first time this has come up. Heck in an earlier incarnation of this board, all of us regularly discussed how the MSM tended to endorse the build-up to the invasion of Iraq–in spite of all the glaringly obvious problems with that perspective.

    They tend to echo their own rather narrow and limited perspectives. Which is just par for the course.

    The problem with the msm, W, is not that it lies (though that does happen on occassion).

    The problem is that it thinks it’s telling the truth.

    ,,,,

    #111949
    Cal
    Participant

    Yeah its more nuanced than the MSM’s version.

    But Many African-Americans are apparently voting for Biden because of the connection with Obama. I dont think there’s much Bernie can do about that. I see all kinds of leftists advising him to ‘change his message’ somehow to fight Biden or attract Black voters — but I dunno what else he can do. Biden just has the Obama-Advantage, in the primaries, with Older and Southern Black-Voters.

    We KNOW those same voters would vote for Bernie if it was Trump vs Bernie.

    Looking at the details (collected by the MSM) I’m not sure it makes sense to say older black-voters. Bernie is losing by 30, 40, 50 points in the South. That kind of defeat can’t be explained by saying it’s just older voters unless you mean older than 29, which would be 80% of the voters.

    The lack of support from black, southern voters is a huge problem for Bernie and probably any progressive candidate. And it’s not new and happening just because of Biden’s connection to Obama. I remember–maybe incorrectly–the same thing happening in 2016 with Hillary. Losing by such a big margin with black voters in the South helped Hillary run up a large delegate lead over Bernie and history is repeating with Biden.

    And the percentages Bernie is losing by in the South are so big it seems meaningless to say it’s mainly older voters. Biden’s–and Hillary before him–dominance with black Southern voters is a big part of why Bernie will lose the nomination.

    Maybe you can say it’s older black voters in northern states because in places like Minnesota, Massachusetts, California Bernie exit polls indicate that Biden beat Bernie by a much, much smaller margin than in the South.

    #111951
    wv
    Participant

    “if Bernie cant beat Biden he doesn’t deserve to win…”

    #111953
    wv
    Participant

    Newt Gingrich – advice for Bernie — bring up Hunter 🙂

    #111979
    Zooey
    Moderator
    #111981
    wv
    Participant

    Maybe you can say it’s older black voters in northern states because in places like Minnesota, Massachusetts, California Bernie exit polls indicate that Biden beat Bernie by a much, much smaller margin than in the South.

    =====================

    Well, whether its ‘older Southern,’ or just ‘older,’ or ‘older and middle-aged’ or whatever — Its bad.

    Ironically, the Black voters that vote for Biden, thinking they are being loyal to Obama or whatever — may just actually end up getting Biden elected and then LOSING to Trump. So being loyal to Obama’s legacy just may end up giving black families four more years of Trump.

    Lots of weird ironies, here.

    Then again who knows.

    But i guess Michigan will tell us a lot about the Dem Primary, at least.
    Biden is ahead in the polls, i believe.

    w
    v

    #111985
    Zooey
    Moderator

    #111982
    wv
    Participant

    Taibbi:

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/bernie-sanders-attack-joe-biden-democratic-primary-963934/amp/?fbclid=IwAR0OeNhmu5M7QAzh9hhs4LRd-NOUHwTncCxesn6Ke6ghAkqIpfEal8igbvs

    =================

    Progressives all over the internet think Bernie should attack Biden.

    I dunno if that would help or not. (I dont think it would help with Black Voters) But it just aint Bernie. He attacks policies. Thats just how he rolls.

    I think Bernies chances are slim now. I dont think his numbers add up without a huge dose of Black Voters.

    Whatever chance he has ‘may’ come down to a couple of debates. Maybe Biden just implodes er somethin. Doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

    Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump.
    Joe Biden vs Donald Trump.

    Think about the big picture here. This is Amerika. What does it say?

    perhaps, It says take the next boat to Thailand 🙂

    w
    v

    #112058
    zn
    Moderator

    South Carolina, Neoliberalism’s Stranglehold, and the Mystique of the ‘Black Vote’
    By reducing black Americans’ concerns to race or exploiting the idea of a singular “black vote,” the elite political class undermines our ability to organize a majoritarian social movement to combat the ruling-class assault on all working people.

    Adolph Reed Jr. is Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Pennsylvania and an organizer for Medicare for All-South Carolina.

    Willie Legette is Professor Emeritus of Political Science at South Carolina State University and Lead Organizer, Medicare for All-South Carolina.

    https://portside.org/2020-03-07/south-carolina-neoliberalisms-stranglehold-and-mystique-black-vote?fbclid=IwAR27NqgTMD5050aD56CJQXvjasvnfbuKSNQx3aNC-2AR653m1Md28jR_hbQ

    Many progressives hoped that South Carolina black voters, who have consistently expressed strong support for Medicare for All and other components of Bernie Sanders’ political program, would counter the conventional wisdom that the “black vote” is tightly aligned with the Democratic party’s establishment wing and deliver a Sanders victory on Saturday. Of course, those hopes didn’t materialize. Black voters were 56% of the Democratic electorate here, and Biden received an estimated 61-64% of their votes. Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, the only other candidate embracing a reasonably honest version of Medicare for All, received 17% and 5% respectively. That was the not so good news on February 29.

    The much better news, though, is that exit polls showed half of Democratic primary voters in South Carolina supported “replacing all private health insurance with a single government plan for everyone.” Roughly 40% of voters indicated that they saw health care as the most important issue, and fewer than one in ten agreed that the economic system “works well enough as it is.” Indeed, 53% of those voters agreed that the American economic system “needs a complete overhaul.” South Carolina is one of 14 states that refused to expand Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act, and medical debt is the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the state; so it’s not surprising that Democratic voters would be so open to transformative political change in principle.

    Yet, of those in South Carolina who support replacing private health insurance, 44% voted for Biden, 29% for Sanders and 8% for Warren. Of those who said that the economic system needs a complete overhaul, 49% voted for Biden, and 22% for Sanders. A similar pattern emerged on Super Tuesday as well. So how do we make sense of what seems to be the disconnect between people’s concerns and how they voted?

    Several factors account for it. One is likely confusion or uncertainty fomented by conservative Democrats and the corporate media. Some voters believed erroneously, for example, that Buttigieg or other opposing candidates supported Medicare for All. In addition, the anti-Medicare for All industry front group, Partnership for America’s Health Care Future, spent $200,000 on non-stop ads that directly attacked Medicare for All, including during the Charleston debate.

    A reason for that disconnect that we want to focus on in particular has to do with the complexities of what is called the “black vote.” Nationally, black voters are more likely than others to support a single-payer health care system at 74%, compared to 69% among Hispanics and 44% among whites. And there is little reason to assume that black support for Medicare for All in South Carolina differs substantially from the national data. Our experience in the Debs-Jones-Douglass Institute’s Medicare for All-South Carolina campaign certainly comports with the national findings. Between December 2019 and the primary, our “I’m a Medicare for All Voter” initiative gathered more than 10,000 pledge cards from South Carolinians, largely black, who indicated that they would vote only for candidates who support Medicare for All.

    The disjunction between candidate choices and issue concerns reflects how people are accustomed to making their short-term electoral calculations and how they understand the issues that affect their lives. People take different criteria to candidate selection than to their estimations of the issues that most concern them. In part that is the result of decades of bipartisan neoliberal hegemony in which electoral politics has been drained of serious policy differences. For more than forty years neither Republicans nor Democrats have sought to address Americans’ decreasing standard of living and increasing economic insecurity. Both parties have subordinated voters’ concerns to the interests of Wall Street and corporations. Therefore, in states like South Carolina Democratic party politics is fundamentally transactional, where people are habituated to making electoral choices based on considerations like personal relationships or more local concerns that do not center so much on national policy issues. In effect politics—or at least electoral politics—has been redefined as not the appropriate domain for trying to pursue policies that address people’s actual material concerns like health care, education, jobs and wages, or housing.

    That narrow view of politics was on display regarding the “black vote” in particular in the runup to the 2016 South Carolina primary when Congressmen James Clyburn (D-SC), John Lewis (D-GA), and Cedric Richmond (D-LA) denounced calls for free public higher education as “irresponsible” because “there are no free lunches.” When Clyburn endorsed Biden in 2020, he took a swipe at Medicare for All, another issue with strong black American support, indicating that the choice this year is Biden vs. Medicare for All. (It may be worth noting that Clyburn, between 2008 and 2018, took more than $1 million from the pharmaceutical industry.)

    Almost exactly four years ago, political scientist Cedric Johnson published a very important Jacobin magazine essay—titled “Fear and Pandering in the Palmetto State”—prompted by the, if anything, more disappointing outcome of the last South Carolina primary. In rejecting the interpretation that black South Carolinians had voted against their interests in supporting Hillary Clinton, he also rejected the idea of a singular “black vote.” He insisted that “some black people did vote their interests, as they understand them, which shouldn’t be a revelation if you see black people as a group who hold multiple, shifting and conflicting interests.” He then laid out a variety of scenarios under which black South Carolinians would reasonably have voted for Clinton, noting that it’s also important to take into account that their “impressions, preferences, and expectations have been formed in a conservative state in uncertain times.”

    Johnson problematizes “black politics” as a framework for understanding either black Americans’ electoral behavior or their class and political interests. He points out that “voting for a presidential candidate… is only a proxy for political interests, which are again multifaceted and shifting.” Black politics, in fact, is an historically specific phenomenon, as Johnson argues elsewhere. It is a label attached to the racialized black interest-group politics that consolidated after the great victories of the 1960s. It is thoroughly a class politics that rests on a premise—and one asserted with increasing intensity as class differences among black Americans become clearer in political debate—that all black Americans converge around a racial agenda defined arbitrarily by political elites and others in the stratum of freelance Racial Voices.

    That perspective helps to understand the vitriol with which Reps. Clyburn, Lewis, and Richmond attacked the Sanders program in 2016. It stemmed from a turf-protectiveness affronted by direct appeals to black Americans addressing concerns arising from their discrete social positions. Such appeals are “irresponsible” not only because they encourage black people to aspire beyond the constraints of neoliberal hegemony but also because those appeals disregard the brokerage role of the black political class and political-managerial class opinion shapers.

    The black political class, to put it bluntly, uses the status of “representing” black people to accrue benefits for themselves and elite strata among black Americans. In pursuing such interests, it is not unusual for them to advocate anti-democratic positions. In 2016 the members of the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) and other black elected officials offered the strongest opposition to decreasing the role of Super Delegates at the Democratic Party Convention. Unashamedly, they argued that they as black representatives should not have to run against party activists, and they should not be expected to support presidential candidates that they did not have a role in selecting.

    Since 2016 the black punditry has converged around a narrative that Sanders has difficulty appealing to black voters, even as polls have shown repeatedly that his program is more popular among black Americans than any other group. This effort recently hit a comic plateau when the The Root produced a report purporting to evaluate the Democratic candidates in relation to a “Black Agenda.” The report, based on criteria crafted by anonymous “experts,” ranked Warren first with Biden, Buttigieg, and Steyer also ahead of Sanders. Tellingly, Buttigieg and Steyer offered decidedly class-skewed racial programs centering on entrepreneurship and business development, and Sanders was graded down for having had the temerity to consider mobilizing a primary challenge to “the first black president.”

    Another facet of this black politics is that, in reducing all of black Americans’ concerns to race, it undermines our abilities to organize the majoritarian social movement response we need to combat the ever more naked assertion of ruling-class power against all working people in the United States. In 2018, we noted—regarding South Carolina in particular—that Republicans and Democrats shared an interest in making race the most significant fault line in the state’s politics. We recalled political scientist V. O. Key’s 1949 conclusion that the state’s preoccupation with race stifled political conflict and noted the irony that Key’s assessment of how race worked then largely holds today, albeit in a different way because black Democrats are as committed to that race reductionism as are white Republicans. Much as other Wall Street Democrats clearly are more troubled by a Sanders victory than a Trump re-election, the black brokerage stratum is ever more explicit that its main objective is to undermine black Americans’ participation in a broad movement for social transformation along economically egalitarian lines.

    The CBC response to Trump’s election brings this problem into clear view. In 2016, candidate Trump challenged black elected officials and the Democratic Party by asking black voters, “What do you have to lose” in voting for him. Responding to the provocation, the CBC presented a report, “We Have A Lot To Lose: Solutions To Advance Black Families In The 21st Century” (pdf), to President Trump. The Caucus followed this up with the “Jobs and Justice Act of 2018.” Both offered moderate neoliberal solutions to the salient problems confronting the majority of black people. After the press conferences both documents were submitted to the dust bin of history. Such posturing expresses the character of contemporary “black politics.”

    This leads to our final observation regarding last Saturday’s primary. Johnson concludes his essay by stressing that our endgame

    “is not the election of a president but the transformation of the country into a place that is more egalitarian, just, and humane, a society where poverty is not possible and where real freedom is enjoyed by all… The kind of popular pressure we need to advance some of the best of Sanders’s platform—free higher education, postal banking, public works, a single-payer health care system, stronger financial regulation, and so on—cannot be built in an election cycle.”

    Now we should say: “two election cycles.” As our opponents have made strikingly clear in recent weeks, to whatever extent it wasn’t already, we won’t and were never going to be able simply to elect our way into the kind of just society we need and deserve. The struggle for the Democratic presidential nomination and the room for debate it provides remain crucial, of course. However, the South Carolina results, as well as those of several—e.g., Virginia, where Biden bested Sanders 53-23, and 53% of voters indicated preference for Medicare for All—of the Super Tuesday states, underscore the need to dig in and build on the potential the Sanders moment has provided us to take up the slow, unglamorous work of building organically rooted working-class politics around issues that connect directly with people’s lives and concerns all over the United States. That approach is what led us to undertake the Medicare for All-South Carolina campaign, for which nonpartisan grassroots political education directed toward the primary was only an initial phase.

    We agree with Johnson, who is our friend and comrade, as well that the South Carolina primary in itself is significant really only in relation to the bizarre, disingenuous claim that winning the black vote in particular is the key to being able to win the presidency. No Democrat will win South Carolina in November. And it is worth noting that the same is likely true of several of the southern Super Tuesday states as well; outside the southern states Biden and Sanders were basically competitive.

    So here we are. The vaunted South Carolina primary has come and gone; the work remains.

    #112061
    Zooey
    Moderator

    =================

    Whatever chance he has ‘may’ come down to a couple of debates. Maybe Biden just implodes er somethin. Doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

    w
    v

    Which is why the DNC is changing the debate format so they don’t debate. They have the lead now, so they are going to sit on the ball, and run out the clock.

    From now on, it’s Town Halls. A nice, safe place for Uncle Joe to be innocuous and charming without having to take any real heat from moderators or from Sanders. He will just to come in and smile, and hope he put his pants on right side out.

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