What American Sniper did is much, much worse than rewrite history

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  • #17347
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The way I do this, I can have a critique like that of a film and still like it. I just counter-balance all the different stuff. You can’t look for movies to be always mirroring your own views. So I am always doing all the things at once — ideological critique, wasn’t that scene cool, great film, it’s still a commercial for mainstream beliefs, what a great film, etc..

    Yes.

    w
    v

    #17365
    waterfield
    Participant

    Well I do see a difference in the two. To me Eastwood doesn’t make movies with a political agenda and Stone most certainly does. As an example I don’t see any political message in Sniper unless the absence of such can be seen as political. To me (ad nauseum) it was about the emotional trauma of one soldier-hence the singular “sniper” as opposed to sending some sort of political message. The movie was about loneliness, pain, suffering and loss. It was NOT about the morality of that war. Possibly a 10 year old might see the movie and believe we were in a justifiable war. But for most thinking people that curtain came down long ago. As PA wrote whether you believe we should have invaded Iraq or not a movie about the emotional trauma to a soldier ain’t gonna change your view. Moreover, everyone knows there were never any WMD found. As in a Leonard Cohen song: “everyone knows that the dice are loaded…”

    #17366
    waterfield
    Participant

    “I would jump in, but i agree with every word
    zn has said.”

    Captain Renault in Casablanca: “I’m shocked, shocked I tell you…”

    #17369
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Well I do see a difference in the two. To me Eastwood doesn’t make movies with a political agenda and Stone most certainly does. As an example I don’t see any political message in Sniper unless the absence of such can be seen as political. To me (ad nauseum) it was about the emotional trauma of one soldier-hence the singular “sniper” as opposed to sending some sort of political message. The movie was about loneliness, pain, suffering and loss. It was NOT about the morality of that war. Possibly a 10 year old might see the movie and believe we were in a justifiable war. But for most thinking people that curtain came down long ago. As PA wrote whether you believe we should have invaded Iraq or not a movie about the emotional trauma to a soldier ain’t gonna change your view. Moreover, everyone knows there were never any WMD found. As in a Leonard Cohen song: “everyone knows that the dice are loaded…”

    I didn’t say he did make movies with an overt political agenda. We’re talking about different things. I say all films (in fact all narratives) have political messages–and that’s whether they’re intended or not. They’re just there. They are just there because human beings made them.

    And in Sniper, what they let get into the film was a message “confirming” that Iraq was directly related to 9/11. Now they could have let that in there because they’re lazy, or stupid, or negligent, or uncaring, or just don’t know how to think about what that means. But it IS there.

    Visions of what history is and how it happened and why and what’s a good society and what isn’t and so on are in everything ever written. They’re just there…all you have to do is look. They’re there because that kind of stuff colors peoples thoughts and shows up in their stories about life.

    So anyway, to me telling a big lie about american history is a bad thing.

    To you it’s not as important as having a good time at the movies. Shrug. s

    And to me the lie is central. They want to show the burden and the stress of the I am a sheepdog thing. Well, Someone fighting in Iraq isn’t a sheepdog, they don’t protect us from anything…the war in Iraq just never had a justification. It’s hard to make a guy the tormented hero of sacrifice if the war that is his stage turns out to have served no purpose and have been founded on a lie. They can’t tell the story they tell unless they just plain never question the war. Because otherwise they start adding irony and questions to what they want to be a story that excludes those things. (Joke coming)…it would become Major Payne.

    #17373
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “I would jump in, but i agree with every word
    zn has said.”

    Captain Renault in Casablanca: “I’m shocked, shocked I tell you…”

    Your views are not exactly a big surprise
    either, right?

    Zack and I share the same politics
    and approach to this stuff.
    You have a different approach/politix (shrug)

    Btw, i have NO idea how you can see an Eastwood
    movie and not see his politics. Its right there
    in the material he chooses.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #17375
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    “I would jump in, but i agree with every word
    zn has said.”

    Captain Renault in Casablanca: “I’m shocked, shocked I tell you…”

    Your views are not exactly a big surprise
    either, right?

    Unlike the previous huddle, this one is moderated. I remember the “make it about the poster” thing was one of the little acorns that grew into forests of hell on that board. s

    Maybe I am a tad premature here, and a little preemptive, n such, but this isn’t about the posters.

    #17386
    waterfield
    Participant

    “Btw, i have NO idea how you can see an Eastwood
    movie and not see his politics. Its right there
    in the material he chooses.”

    Have you seen Sniper?

    #17388
    waterfield
    Participant

    “So anyway, to me telling a big lie about american history is a bad thing.”

    But Eastwood didn’t “tell” “the big lie”. He avoided it to focus on one man’s torture due to war. It is so simple I honestly do not understand why you and ZN don’t get it. Maybe you do get it and you want to focus on what the movie COULD have done. Fine-I get that. Another day another movie.

    #17389
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    “So anyway, to me telling a big lie about american history is a bad thing.”

    But Eastwood didn’t “tell” “the big lie”.

    Yeah he did. The film advances that view (the lie), never undercuts it, and lets it stand. It is also reflected in the enemies they fight in the film.

    The article above puts it best: And when Kyle gets to Iraq, his commander explains that they are hunting the leaders of al-Qaeda in Iraq. The inference we’re supposed to gather is clear: that Kyle is fighting the same people who attacked America in 1998 and 2001. By contrast, the actual reasons for the Iraq war go unmentioned. The words “Saddam Hussein” are never uttered in the movie. Nor are “George Bush,” “Sunni,” “Shia,” or “weapons of mass destruction.”

    #17391
    waterfield
    Participant

    No he didn’t. The only conceivable “advance” of justification for the war is that he doesn’t address the issue. Your issues are with the “silence” of what you perceive are the real issues that YOU need to be discussed. Again, another day another film. Let’s strip off our clothes, become naked and honestly tell the truth: the article that began this post is agenda driven. Pure, simple, and honesty. I do not dislike honesty. But the truth in this matter is that Eastwood was not in any way attempting to “justify” the “lie”. To think otherwise is to be agenda driven. So be it.

    Now could the movie have taken the “opportunity” to expose the “truth” . Yes if that was what the movie was intended to be about. Unfortunately for a few that was not the purpose of the movie.

    I think I’m done here. I have other things I need to do. But PA’s personal experience in Desert Storm is very likely at the heart of Eastwood’s film and the “message” he wanted to deliver. Nothing more nothing less. At least in my opinion.

    #17394
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Lots of discussion about American Sniper all over
    the Net. Generally speaking things breakdown
    along the usual political lines. They just do.

    Ya got tons and tons of rightwing writers saying
    “its not political, and even if it is, its accurate”

    And ya got leftwing writers saying,
    “War movies are political, and this one is inaccurate”

    Everyone seems to agree the cinematography and
    “craftsmanship” in the movie are first-rate.

    The two main views are
    represented below…fwiw

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    v

    ==================================
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/22/dirty-harry-goes-to-iraq/
    A Cultural Essay
    Dirty Harry Goes To Iraq
    by JOHN GRANT

    ….Like the Iraq War itself, Eastwood’s movie begins by exploiting a historically inaccurate delusion and, then, sustains itself for two hours on the mission to protect US soldiers against the insurgency that arose in opposition to the US invasion and occupation based on the initial delusion….

    Any honest skeptic equipped with even a cursory understanding of the antecedents to the Iraq War will see what’s going on here. It’s not a debatable issue: We know now for sure that Iraq had absolutely nothing — nada, zilch — to do with the downing of the twin towers in New York. Dick Cheney’s persistent claims to the contrary, the secular Muslim Saddam Hussein, once our ally, was a bitter enemy of al Qaeda. But in 2014, the film’s producer, writer and director decided on a clean and efficient plot line that hinges on the highly emotional image of the towers falling. The real Chris Kyle may have absolutely believed in this fictional connection, but a protagonist’s delusion is not a defense for emotionally perpetuating such a costly fiction (many call it a “lie”) in a narrative film about the war. But, then, that’s what “popular” filmmaking is all about, and Eastwood is, if nothing else, a maestro of popular American storytelling. Whether or not one respects such a corrupt decision, the fact is American Sniper is an extremely well-made movie….
    ….
    Over the years, he has honed this very masculine style and become a popular film director exploring the American psyche mostly from the reactionary right — though his films are always a dialogue with issues on the left. American Sniper is no different with its limited contrapuntal theme of PTSD and homefront family adjustment.

    All that storytelling talent is on the screen in American Sniper. Like the war itself, the film is aggressive, masculine and highly kinetic. The film’s sound effects are rich and thundering in the theater; its camera work is direct and bold. There’s a real “shock and awe” feel to the piece. MRAPs roar out of the FOB with a menacing hugeness. Any sense of reflection is missing, and historical and political context are willfully left out of the story. When confronted with leftist criticism suggesting the film got the Iraq War wrong, producer and star Bradley Cooper reportedly said, “It’s not a film about debating the war; it’s a character study.”
    Cooper is right: The film is a character study — a highly controlled character study that clearly leaves a lot out. But all it takes is watching Fox News champ Sean Hannity’s groveling before the film for a full hour special to realize Cooper may be a likable, talented actor, but he’s dead wrong when he says the film isn’t part of the debate about the Iraq War. In a larger context, it’s also very much about violence and militarism in America in these very complicated and troubling times.

    By avoiding contextual issues — specifically, the reasons SEAL sniper Chris Kyle was in Iraq killing those 160 Iraqi insurgents — the film is art that operates as propaganda in a cultural context. Film-making skills are not to be sneezed at, but to use a classically egregious example, D.W. Griffith’s Birth of the Nation was also an extremely well-made film. As for Iraq War films, to contrast Eastwood’s film, the plot that drives the Matt Damon film Green Zone is getting to the bottom of all the things that don’t add up in the search for WMDs. In that film, making sense of the war’s confusing context is the goal, while in American Sniper, the goal is hero worship and avoidance of anything that sullies that story…. See link….’
    ========================

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2015/mark-tapson/eastwoods-american-sniper-republican-propaganda/
    Eastwood’s ‘American Sniper’: Republican Propaganda?
    By Mark Tapson

    ….Now comes American Sniper, directed by Clint Eastwood and based on the memoir of the same name by the late SEAL warrior Chris Kyle, whose 160 confirmed sniper kills (and almost 100 more “probables”) in the Iraq war made him a legend. With the film, the openly conservative/libertarian Hollywood icon Eastwood dared to buck the trend and make a movie that refuses to muddy the moral waters.

    Liberal critics bristled. In the end-of-the-year issue of New York magazine, film critic David Edelson began his review of American Sniper with an ad hominem attack on the director for his political conservatism. Referring to Eastwood’s playful address to an empty chair representing President Obama at the 2012 Republican National Convention, Edelson wrote that “Eastwood looked as if he were slipping into doddering dementia.”

    He goes on to admit that American Sniper is “a crackerjack piece of filmmaking” and that its star Bradley Cooper “is very impressive” in the lead role; but morally, he says, Eastwood “has regressed.” Because the movie doesn’t condemn what Edelson calls “the Iraq occupation,” then it must be dismissed as “scandalously blinkered” and nothing more than “a Republican platform movie.”

    A.O. Scott’s review in the New York Times correctly states that American Sniper “reaffirms Mr. Eastwood’s commitment to the themes of vengeance and justice in a fallen world. In the universe of his films — a universe where the existence of evil is a given — violence is a moral necessity, albeit one that often exacts a cost from those who must wield it in the service of good.” This is a distinctly conservative world view which Scott finds ethically arguable and potentially dangerous; nonetheless, he concedes that “much of [the movie’s] considerable power derives from the clarity and sincerity of its bedrock convictions.”

    But the only moral conviction that the left can accept about the Iraq war is one which condemns our role in it. Hence Scott goes on to assert that Eastwood “edits the history in which [the story] is embedded,” although he doesn’t say how. The implication is that Eastwood’s “troubling” moral perspective does not allow for the foreign policy critique that Scott requires from a Hollywood war movie. Indeed he writes that “though George W. Bush’s name is never invoked, ‘American Sniper’ can be seen as an expression of nostalgia for his Manichaean approach to foreign policy.”

    That approach is too simplistic for the left, who are uncomfortable with the notion that there are good guys and bad guys, and even more uncomfortable with the notion that Americans are the good guys. Progressives pretend that they see the world as more “nuanced,” when in fact what the left calls nuance is usually moral equivalence; for them, America at war is always in the wrong, and the people who want to kill us do so because they have legitimate “grievances.”

    Scott doesn’t like the fact that Chris Kyle’s enemies “are identified only and repeatedly as Al Qaeda,” and neither does Edelson, who complains that “the people Kyle shoots always represent a ‘savage, despicable evil.’” This leads one to suspect that the critics would have preferred that Eastwood show our soldiers killing innocent Iraqis as well, not just the bad guys. “As in many jingoist war movies,” Scott writes, “the native population are portrayed as invaders of our sacred space instead of vice versa.” But we weren’t at war with the native population, of course; we were at war with the savage, despicable evil of international terrorist Saddam Hussein and of the insurgents who were terrorizing the natives.

    Critics like Edelson and Scott don’t criticize the heavy-handed politics of left-leaning films or directors. They didn’t call George Clooney’s and Matt Damon’s jihadist recruitment movie Syriana “scandalously blinkered.” They didn’t dismiss Sean Penn’s Valerie Plame snoozefest Fair Game as a “Democrat platform movie.” They didn’t say that Brian de Palma – whose disgusting Redacted portrayed our soldiers as raping, murdering occupiers – had “regressed” morally.

    But let a right-leaning director make a film that strives to be apolitical, and progressives – for whom everything is political – must politicize it so that they can then condemn it as jingoistic. “The politics of the Iraq war are entirely absent” in American Sniper, Scott wrote, “which is a political statement in its own right.” So he magically declares it “a propaganda film,” just as Edelson called it a “Republican platform movie.” Conservative directors are damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

    In a sense, though, American Sniper IS a Republican platform movie – or at least, a conservative platform movie, because it reflects the wisdom that, in A.O. Scott’s own words, “violence is a moral necessity that often exacts a cost from those who must wield it in the service of good.” Soldiers are not political. They are at the service of our country, at the mercy of our politicians, and at the command of their superiors. Thus, to echo Tennyson, “Theirs not to reason why/Theirs but to do and die.” Conservatives recognize that and honor them for it. As much as it may aggravate the left, American Sniper is not about politics, but about an American hero at war with Islamic evil….see link…

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #17902
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I was an American sniper, and Chris Kyle’s war was not my war

    Don’t make the mistake of thinking the hit movie captures the truth of the Iraq conflict. I should know. I lived it

    Garett Reppenhagen

    http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/

    I spent nights in Iraq lying prone and looking through a 12-power sniper scope. You only see a limited view between the reticles. That’s why it’s necessary to keep both eyes open. This way you have some ability to track targets and establish 360 degrees of awareness. I rotated with my spotter and an additional security team member to maintain vigilance and see the whole battlefield. I scrutinized every target in my scope to determine if they were a threat.

    In a way, it’s an analogy for keeping the whole Iraq mission in perspective and fully understanding the experiences of the U.S. war fighters during Operation Iraqi Freedom. No single service member has the monopoly on the war narrative. It will change depending on where you serve, when you were there, what your role was, and a few thousand other random elements.

    For the past 10 days, “American Sniper” has rallied crowds and broken box office records, but if you want to understand the war, the film is like peering into a sniper scope — it offers a very limited view.

    The movie tells the story of Navy SEAL sniper Chris Kyle, said to have 160 confirmed kills, which would make him the most lethal American military member in history. He first shared his story in a memoir, which became the basis for Clint Eastwood’s film adaptation. Kyle views the occupation of Iraq as necessary to stop terrorists from coming to the mainland and attacking the U.S.; he sees the Iraqis as “savages” and attacks any critical thought about the overall mission and the military’s ability to accomplish it.

    This portrayal is not unrealistic. My unit had plenty of soldiers who thought like that. When you are sacrificing so much, it’s tempting to believe so strongly in the “noble cause,” a belief that gets hardened by the fatigue of multiple tours and whatever is going on at home. But viewing the war only through his eyes gives us too narrow a frame.

    During my combat tour I never saw the Iraqis as “savages.” They were a friendly culture who believed in hospitality, and were sometimes positive to a fault. The people are proud of their history, education system and national identity. I have listened to children share old-soul wisdom, and I have watched adults laugh and play with the naiveté of schoolboys. I met some incredible Iraqis during and after my deployment, and it is shameful to know that the movie has furthered ignorance that might put them in danger.

    Unlike Chris Kyle, who claimed his PTSD came from the inability to save more service members, most of the damage to my mental health was what I call “moral injury,” which is becoming a popular term in many veteran circles.

    As a sniper I was not usually the victim of a traumatic event, but the perpetrator of violence and death. My actions in combat would have been more acceptable to me if I could cloak myself in the belief that the whole mission was for a greater good. Instead, I watched as the purpose of the mission slowly unraveled.

    I served in Iraq from 2004 to 2005. During that time, we started to realize there were no weapons of mass destruction, the 9/11 commission report determined that Iraq was not involved in the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, false sovereignty was given to Iraq by Paul Bremer, the atrocities at Abu Ghraib were exposed, and the Battle of Fallujah was waged.

    The destruction I took part in suddenly intersected with news that our reasons for waging war were untrue. The despicable conduct of those at Abu Ghraib was made more unforgivable by the honorable interactions I had with Iraqi civilians, and, together, it fueled the post-traumatic stress I struggle with today.

    My war was completely different than Chris Kyle’s war. That doesn’t mean his war is wrong, and mine was right. But it does mean that no one experience is definitive.

    The movie depicts compounded action scenes with very little political and regional context. It was a conscious decision by Clint Eastwood, apparently, to leave out the cause of the U.S. invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. It was a conscious decision, apparently, for multiple characters to describe the Iraqis as “savages” and never show any alternative. When I heard of the bigoted reaction some Americans had after watching the film, I was disgusted, but not surprised. Audience members are mistaking Chris Kyle’s view of the war as “the” story about the war. No wonder someone tweeted that the movie made them “want to go kill some ragheads.” It’s sad that such a nearsighted portrayal of Iraqis has caused more people to fear Arabs and glorify violence against them.

    It would be refreshing if a big Hollywood movie would take on the task of creating a less dramatized, more nuanced version of warfare. There are some incredible documentaries on the subject. “Occupation: Dreamland” and “Restrepo” capture the life of a service member in a modern deployment without sugarcoating the hard political environment that is a backdrop to the conflicts.

    The responsibility to make a picture that takes into account all of the political and social dynamics might not rest on any individual filmmaker. After all, it is just a movie. But that means the public should treat it like that, and educate themselves before jumping to a conclusion that the whole war was just like that. Especially if they support the democratic ideals that Chis Kyle, me and every veteran who put on a uniform swore an oath to defend with our lives.

    If you really want to be a patriotic American, keep both eyes open and maintain 360 degrees of awareness. Don’t simply watch “American Sniper.” Read other sources, watch other films about the conflict. Talk to as many veterans as you can, get a full perspective on the war experience and the consequences. Ensure the perceived enemy in your vision is what it seems.

    #17940
    waterfield
    Participant

    “Generally speaking things breakdown
    along the usual political lines. They just do.
    Ya got tons and tons of rightwing writers saying
    “its not political, and even if it is, its accurate”

    Sorry WV I don’t buy it-not for minute. I personally know “tons and tons” of very liberal people-including my son, wife, friends, etc-that think this entire discussion is silly. Most everyone I know, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, agree that it’s a true story about a single soldier’s torment. It’s not about the morality of the war But since its based on a true story it was about Iraq. The immorality of that particular war-as shared by my son, wife and all my very liberal friends, including myself is for another movie. Now maybe to some we are all just very shallow.

    Personally, I think there are people who will view art-in whatever form-and use it as a vehicle to promote a particular political viewpoint-be it race, war, religion, etc. notwithstanding the intent of the artist.

    BTW: a Threshold question: have either you or ZN actually seen the movie? Or just read from commentaries that you happen to agree with?

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by waterfield.
    #17948
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Most everyone I know, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, agree that it’s a true story about a single soldier’s torment.

    Yeah a lot of people take entertainment at face value. For example, they assume it’s a true story, when it’s not. The truth is not that he was fighting al qaida or that the invasion was linked to 9/11…that was the lie that sold the war.

    What if you put his torment up against the fact that the war had no justification. Looks different doesn;t it. Which is probably why they didn’t tell THAT story…..

    #18007
    waterfield
    Participant
    #18008
    waterfield
    Participant

    “What if you put his torment up against the fact that the war had no justification. Looks different doesn;t it. Which is probably why they didn’t tell THAT story”

    They didn’t need to tell THAT story. Everyone I know understands the motives for the invasion was a pretext but still believe THIS discussion is silly.

    #18089
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Veteran on ‘American Sniper’: The Lies Chris Kyle Told Are Less Dangerous Than the Lies He Believed

    Brock McIntosh

    Brock McIntosh served eight years in the Army National Guard as a combat MP, including a tour in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2009. He is a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War and has been involved in numerous veteran support and advocacy organizations. He is currently a Harry S. Truman Scholar pursuing an MPA at New York University.

    http://inthesetimes.com/article/17597/american_sniper_veterans

    Enough about Chris Kyle. Let’s focus our anger against the authorities and the institutions that craft the lies that the Chris Kyles of the world believe

    After watching the movie American Sniper, I called a friend named Garett Reppenhagen who was an American sniper in Iraq. He deployed with a cavalry scout unit from 2004 to 2005 and was stationed near FOB Warhorse. I asked him if he thought this movie really mattered. “Every portrayal of a historical event should be historically accurate,” he explained. ”A movie like this is a cultural symbol that influences the way people remember history and feel about war.”

    Garett and I met through our antiwar and veteran support work, which he’s been involved with for almost a decade. He served in Iraq. I served in Afghanistan. But both of us know how powerful mass media and mass culture are. They shaped how we thought of the wars when we joined, so we felt it was important to tell our stories when we came home and spoke out.

    I commend Chris Kyle for telling his story in his book American Sniper. The scariest thing I did while in the military was come home and tell my story to the public—the good, the bad and the ugly. I feel that veterans owe it to society to tell their stories, and civilians owe it to veterans to actively listen. Dr. Ed Tick, a psychotherapist who has specialized in veteran care for four decades, explains, “In all traditional and classical societies, returned warriors served many important psychosocial functions. They were keepers of dark wisdom for their cultures, witnesses to war’s horrors from personal experience who protected and discouraged, rather than encouraged, its outbreak again.”

    Chris Kyle didn’t view Iraq like me and Garett, but neither of us have attacked him for it. He’s not the problem. We don’t care about the lies that Chris Kyle may or may not have told. They don’t matter. We care about the lies that Chris Kyle believed. The lie that Iraq was culpable for September 11. The lie that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The lie that people do evil things because they are evil.

    The film American Sniper is also rife with lies. This was not Chris Kyle’s story. And Bradley Cooper was not Chris Kyle. It was Jason Hall’s story, a one-time actor in “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” and screenwriter for “American Sniper,” who called his film a “character study.” Don’t believe him. His movie is as fictional as Buffy Summers.

    In the movie’s first scene, Cooper faces a moral dilemma that never happened in real life. Cooper suspects a boy is preparing to send an improvised explosive device, or IED, toward a convoy of approaching Marines on the streets of Fallujah. Either he kills a child or the child kills Marines. A soldier next to Cooper warns, “They’ll send your ass to Leavenworth if you’re wrong.” In writing this line, Hall implies that killing civilians is a war crime and U.S. military members are sent to prison for it. If U.S. soldiers, including Kyle, don’t seem to be getting punished for killing civilians, then they must not be killing civilians.

    Garett and I agreed that even if that boy was a civilian, nothing would have happened to Cooper for shooting him. Both of us were trained to take detailed notes with the understanding that if something went wrong, it would be corrected in the report. Americans were responsible for thousands of Iraqi deaths and almost none were held accountable.

    During one incident in Iraq, Garett was involved in a firefight that left six to seven civilians dead. He received his orders from an intelligence officer who got his intelligence wrong. He led Garett and a small convoy to an Iraqi deputy governor’s compound, which was supposedly under attack. As the convoy approached, the soldiers spotted a cluster of trucks with armed Iraqis. The armed Iraqis saw the American convoy inching closer, but they didn’t fire. It seemed obvious to Garett that these Iraqis were not who the intelligence officer was looking for. Then the officer screamed, “Fire!” Confused, no one in the convoy pulled their triggers. “I said fire goddamn it!” Someone fired, and all hell broke loose. In the ensuing chaos, one of the Iraqi trucks struck a civilian seeking cover on the sidewalk. As it turned out, those armed Iraqis were the deputy governor’s own security detail. The officer didn’t go to Leavenworth.

    In Hall and Cooper’s Fallujah, it’s as if the Americans just found a city that was already laid to waste. The movie leaves out America’s bombardment of Fallujah. An officer explains that the city has been evacuated, so any military-aged male remaining must be an insurgent. Conveniently, every Iraqi that Cooper kills happens to be carrying a rifle or burying an IED, even though the real Chris Kyle wrote that he was told to shoot anymilitary-aged male. Obviously, every non-insurgent did not evacuate Fallujah.

    “Many Iraqis didn’t have cars or other transportation,” Garett explained. “To get to the nearest town, you’d have to walk across very hot desert, and you wouldn’t be able to carry much. So a lot of residents just decided to stay indoors and wait it out. It’d be like telling people in San Antonio that they have to walk to El Paso; then they come back home and their city is bombed and contaminated with depleted uranium.”

    So what brought Bradley Cooper’s character to Iraq? Early in the film, Hall sets the stage for the moral theme of the movie. When Cooper was a child he sat at a kitchen table with his father, who explained that there are only three types of people in the world: sheep who believe “evil doesn’t exist,” wolves who prey on the sheep, and sheepdogs who are “blessed with aggression” and protect the sheep. In this world, when Cooper watches the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings on television, there is only one explanation: just evil wolves being evil. So he joins the military. When Cooper watches September 11 on television, there is one explanation: just evil wolves being evil. So he goes to war with them.

    Amazingly, Hall and Cooper’s war seems to have absolutely nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. It’s about al-Qaida, which in real life followed the United States into Iraq after we invaded. Cooper’s war also seems to have nothing to do with helping Iraqis, only killing them. Except for the military’s interpreters, every Iraqi in the movie — including the women and children — are either evil, butchering insurgents or collaborators. The sense is that there isn’t a single innocent Iraqi in the war. They’re all “savages.”

    Finally, it seems that a voice of criticism will be heard through the character of Marc Lee. When Lee voices his skepticism, Cooper asks, “Do you want them to attack San Diego or New York?” Cooper somehow wins with that absurd question. Later in the film, Navy SEAL Ryan Job is shot in the face. Distraught, Cooper decides he should lead a group of SEALs back out to avenge Job’s death, which is portrayed as the heroic thing to do. While Lee and Cooper are clearing a building, an Iraqi sniper shoots Lee in the head. The audience is then at Lee’s funeral, where his mother is reading the last letter that Lee sent home expressing criticism of the war. On the road home, Cooper’s wife asks him what he thought about the letter. “That letter killed Marc,” Cooper responds. “He let go, and he paid the price for it.” What makes Cooper a hero, according to the film, is that he’s a sheepdog. In Jason Hall’s world, Lee stops being a sheepdog when he questions his actions in Iraq. He becomes a sheep, “and he paid the price for it” with a bullet from a wolf.

    Hall claims his film is a character study, yet he shamelessly butchered Marc Lee’s real story (and part of Kyle’s) to promote his moral fantasy world and deny legitimacy to veterans critical of the war. Here’s the truth: On the day that the real Ryan Job was shot, the real Marc Lee died after stepping into the line of fire twice to save Job’s life, which apparently was either not “sheepdog” enough to portray accurately in the movie or would have taken the focus off of Cooper’s reckless heroics. You can’t have people believe that critical soldiers are actually not sheep, can you? And as it turns out, Kyle never said those things about Lee’s letter and never blamed Lee for his own death for being skeptical of the war. (Here is Marc Lee’s actual last letter home in full.http://americasmightywarriors.org/_a/marcs-last-letter-home/)

    Chris Kyle was like so many soldiers who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He believed in doing the right thing and was willing to give his life for it. That trait that drives many veterans is a truly special one I wish we all had. Was Kyle wrong that the Iraq War had anything to do with September 11, protecting Americans, seizing weapons of mass destruction, or liberating Iraqis? Without a doubt. But that’s what he was told and he genuinely believed it — an important insight into how good people are driven to work for bad causes. Was Kyle wrong for calling Iraqis “savages”? Of course. In one interview, he admits that Iraqis probably view him as a “savage,” but that in war he needed to dehumanize people to kill them — another important insight into how humans tolerate killing, which was left out of the movie.

    So enough about Chris Kyle. Let’s talk about Cooper and Hall, and the culture industry that recycles propagandistic fiction under the guise of a “true story.” And let’s focus our anger and our organizing against the authorities and the institutions that craft the lies that the Chris Kyles of the world believe, that have created a trail of blowback leading from dumb war to dumb war, and that have sent 2.5 million veterans to fight a “war on terror” that persists in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria and Pakistan. Critics and nonviolent organizers can be sheepdogs too.

    #18097
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “Generally speaking things breakdown
    along the usual political lines. They just do.
    Ya got tons and tons of rightwing writers saying
    “its not political, and even if it is, its accurate”

    Sorry WV I don’t buy it-not for minute. I personally know “tons and tons” of very liberal people-including my son, wife, friends, etc-that think this entire discussion is silly. Most everyone I know, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, agree that it’s a true story about a single soldier’s torment. It’s not about the morality of the war But since its based on a true story it was about Iraq. The immorality of that particular war-as shared by my son, wife and all my very liberal friends, including myself is for another movie. Now maybe to some we are all just very shallow.

    Personally, I think there are people who will view art-in whatever form-and use it as a vehicle to promote a particular political viewpoint-be it race, war, religion, etc. notwithstanding the intent of the artist.

    BTW: a Threshold question: have either you or ZN actually seen the movie? Or just read from commentaries that you happen to agree with?

    After all these posts, I dont think you can accurately summarize zn’s position.
    (which i share)

    Which means, at this point, i dont see any point
    in writing anything more than
    “agree to strongly disagree”.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #18145
    PA Ram
    Participant

    A pretty good discussion.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #18424
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    n

    #18431
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    A pretty good discussion.

    Enh. I didn’t see anyone asking hard questions. It was a bit too fluffy for my taste.
    And that tends to happen when Veterans are on the panel. Folks tend to tiptoe around the vets feelings, etc.

    I know you are a Vet, Pa, so we probably disagree on that. Just my opinion.

    w
    v

    #18470
    PA Ram
    Participant

    Enh. I didn’t see anyone asking hard questions. It was a bit too fluffy for my taste.
    And that tends to happen when Veterans are on the panel. Folks tend to tiptoe around the vets feelings, etc.

    I know you are a Vet, Pa, so we probably disagree on that. Just my opinion.

    w
    v

    Maybe someday Hollywood will make the film that you want them to make. Maybe they’ll make a film that SHOULD be made.

    We disagree on this being that film.

    I like what the Vets said about communicating things. I think that’s very hard to do and do effectively–maybe impossible.

    I don’t disagree with you about the truth of the Iraq war at all. I would guess at this point that people either know that truth and accept it or they reject it for some other story. I do think as the years go on it would be an interesting poll question in terms of things like: “Did they ever find WMDs” or “Who was responsible for 9/11” and see what the response is 50 years from now.

    There is so much information available today–so many sources, that people can find the truth they want.

    Truth may not be subjective, but things like faith prove that doesn’t matter. If someone wants to believe, they will. If someone doesn’t they won’t.

    Truth is truth–but how it is processed changes from person to person.

    Not everyone will get it right. But in their minds they will be “right”. And that’s more important to them.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #18478
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    There is so much information available today–so many sources, that people can find the truth they want.

    To me the issue is people not knowing they don’t know. There’s famous stories about Soviet Communists admiring American propaganda. The Soviets lied, and their people did not believe them. Americans on the other hand have info all around them, and they never know to look.

    See the lie is central to that movie. It can’t be about the burden he carries being a sheepdog and protector IF at the same time they let it be known that his views of the war were not valid. It becomes a different story. It stops being Saving Private Ryan, about heroic sacrifice, and becomes a Vietnam film. Vietnam films don’t allow for unironized pure heroism.

    #18479
    PA Ram
    Participant

    There is so much information available today–so many sources, that people can find the truth they want.

    To me the issue is people not knowing they don’t know. There’s famous stories about Soviet Communists admiring American propaganda. The Soviets lied, and their people did not believe them. Americans on the other hand have info all around them, and they never know to look.

    See the lie is central to that movie. It can’t be about the burden he carries being a sheepdog and protector IF at the same time they let it be known that his views of the war were not valid. It becomes a different story. It stops being Saving Private Ryan, about heroic sacrifice, and becomes a Vietnam film. Vietnam films don’t allow for unironized pure heroism.

    I disagree about the lie being central to that movie.

    His views of the war were valid to HIM. That’s all that mattered in this film, IMO.

    I believe soldiers can lie to themselves all the time, and in some cases need to in order to mentally be able to do what they are told to do. The reality of truth doesn’t matter there. I know that sounds really bad. And I’m not suggesting that it forgives or excuses war crimes or excess behavior in any way. I’m just saying it’s real. The truth matters greatly on a much larger scale or with people who have real power. It matters to civilians who have the luxury of living a normal life and examining the madness of the world, armed with as much information as they can find.

    In those circumstances people will lie to themselves. Now you can think what you want to about them for doing that–and they aren’t all big lies(you can know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but you may find some way to view Iraq as some other threat or believe that you’re making sure they have no WMDs).

    As I said, communicating it is hard. I just took something different away from the film, and I would guess that there are Vets every bit as critical of the film as you are. There are Vets who probably hated Chris Kyle.

    But I looked at it as HIS film, HIS story, HIS truth.

    I get that you don’t accept that or could look at it in that way. Or that you demand more from it.

    As for people not knowing they don’t know, I don’t think this film would have changed that. I doubt they would have noticed.

    I barely paid attention to that scene and really didn’t think much about it until it became an issue after I’d seen it. It really didn’t register for me. So for me, I can’t find that lie central to the film.

    Anyway, we will never agree on it and that’s fine—we do agree on some films. I think we both liked “The Dark Knight”. 🙂

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #18485
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I disagree about the lie being central to that movie.

    His views of the war were valid to HIM. That’s all that mattered in this film, IMO.

    The film completely allows the lie to dictate the narrative. It does not question it and in fact does everything to support it. Again, if it DIDN’T, his whole story would look different. Like, COMPLETELY different.

    And it is honestly really easy to have put his ideas in context and show that they were not true. A 30 second scene would do it. Also, NOT having the enemy be Al qaida in Falluja would do it too.

    Speaking of info being all around us, people should read the real story of Fallujah. Once you do that you realize the film is a complete and total collaborator in the revisionist take on the war. For one thing, the insurgents there had nothing bloody to do with Al Qaida — they were Iraqi sunni insurgents associated with the old regime.

    There was no bloody way on earth that film was going to show a realistic version of Fallujah. It was revisionist in every single frame. And badly so. Like way out of its way from the truth and deep into falsehoods.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah_during_the_Iraq_War
    2003 invasion of Iraq
    Downtown Fallujah, December 2003

    Although the majority of the residents were Sunni and had supported Saddam Hussein’s rule, Fallujah lacked military presence just after his fall. There was little looting and the new mayor of the city—Taha Bidaywi Hamed, was selected by local tribal leaders—was pro-United States.[4] When the U.S. Army’s 1st Battalion / 2nd Brigade 82nd Airborne entered the town on April 23, 2003, they positioned themselves at the vacated Ba’ath Party headquarters, a local school house, and the Ba’ath party resort just outside town (Dreamland)—the US bases inside the town erased some goodwill, especially when many in the city had been hoping the US Army would stay outside of the relatively calm city.

    Instability, April 2003 – March 2004
    Main article: Fallujah killings of April 2003

    On the evening of April 28, 2003, several hundred residents defied the US curfew and marched down the streets of Fallujah, past the soldiers positioned in the Ba’ath party (which did not exist any more at that point) headquarters, to protest the military presence inside the local school. The protest remained peaceful but US soldiers fired upon the crowd, killing as many as 17 and wounding more than 70 of the protesters. US soldiers alleged that they were returning fire, but protesters stated they were unarmed.[5][6][7] Independent observers from human rights group found no evidence that US forces had come under attack.[1] The US suffered no casualties from the incident.

    Two days later, on April 30, the 82d Airborne was replaced in the city by 2nd Troop (Fox) / U.S. 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. The 3rd Cavalry was significantly smaller in number and chose not to occupy the same schoolhouse where the shooting had occurred two days earlier. However, on the same day a daytime protest in front of the Ba’ath party headquarters and mayor’s office (which are adjacent to one another) led to the death of three more protesters. At this point in time the 3rd Cavalry was in control of the entire Al Anbar province, and it quickly became evident that a larger force was needed. The now battalion-sized element of the 3rd Cavalry (2nd squadron) in Fallujah was replaced by the 2nd Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division.[citation needed]

    During the summer, the US army decided to close down its last remaining base inside the city (the Ba’ath party headquarters; FOB Laurie). At this point the 3d ACR had all of its forces stationed outside Fallujah in the former Baathist resort, Dreamland. After the May 11 surrender of the Mujahedin-e-Khalq, the incoming 3d Infantry Division also began using the large MEK compound adjacent to Dreamland to accommodate its larger troop presence in Fallujah. Under its control, the 3d Infantry Division maintained no bases inside the city of Fallujah.

    On 30 June a “huge explosion” occurred in a mosque in which the imam, Sheikh Laith Khalil, and eight other people were killed. Residents of the city claim the army fired a missile at the mosque while the army displayed evidence that a terrorist bomb training class had gone wrong.[8] Just a couple of days earlier things had been much quieter, although US troops had been confiscating motorbikes as a preventive measure against terrorist attacks.[9]
    Timeline showing the sequence of units in control of Fallujah in just the first year of the war

    Just 2 months after the 3rd Infantry had taken control of Fallujah from the 3rd Cavalry, the entire 3rd Infantry Division was redeployed home. The 3d Cavalry was once again put in control of Fallujah, and again was only able to devote one squadron to Fallujah. Attached to that Squadron was the 115th MP Company from Rhode Island. Unarmored and ill-equipped the 115th MPs kept order with routine patrols and frequent house raids searching for insurgents and weapons caches. In September 2003, the 3rd Brigade of the 82nd Airborne was deployed to replace the 3d Cavalry in Ramadi and Fallujah. The 3rd Cavalry was then left to control all of the al-Anbar province except for these two cities.

    Approximately one year after the invasion, the city’s Iraqi police and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps were unable to establish law and order. Insurgents launched many indiscriminate attacks and some on police stations in the city, killing at least 20 police officers. Beginning in early March 2004, the Army’s 82nd Airborne Division commanded by Major-General Charles H. Swannack Jr. gave a transfer of authority of the al-Anbar province to the I Marine Expeditionary Force commanded by Lt. General Conway. The 3rd Cavalry and the 3rd Brigade of the 82nd Airborne were then sent home.
    Attack on contractors

    Main article: 2004 Fallujah ambush

    On March 31, 2004 – Iraqi insurgents from the Brigades of Martyr Ahmed Yassin in Fallujah ambushed a convoy containing four American private military contractors (mercenaries) employed by Blackwater USA, who were at the time guarding a convoy carrying kitchen supplies to a military base, for the catering company Eurest Support Services[10]

    The four contractors, Scott Helvenston, Jerko Zovko, Wesley Batalona and Michael Teague, were dragged from their cars, beaten, and set ablaze. Their burned corpses were then dragged through the streets before being hung over a bridge crossing the Euphrates.[11]
    Siege, April 2004
    Main article: First Battle of Fallujah

    In response to the killing of the four US citizens, and intense political pressure, the US Marines commenced Operation Vigilant Resolve. They surrounded the city and attempted to capture the individuals responsible as well as others in the region who might have been involved in insurgencies. One out of every two mosques in Fallujah were used to hide fighters or weapons.[12] The Iraqi National Guard was supposed to work alongside with the US Marines in the operation, but on the dawn of the invasion they discarded their uniforms and deserted.[13] Under pressure from the Iraqi Governing Council, the US aborted its attempt to regain control of Fallujah. The US Marines suffered 40 deaths in the siege. Estimates of the number of Iraqi deaths (both fighters and civilians) in the attack range from 271 (according to Iraqi Ministry of Health officials[14][15]) to 731 (according to Rafie al-Issawi, the head of the local hospital[16]).

    The occupying force on April 9 allowed more than 70,000 women, children and elderly residents to leave the besieged city. On April 10, the US military declared a unilateral truce to allow for humanitarian supplies to enter Fallujah. US troops pulled back to the outskirts of the city. An Iraqi mediation team entered the city in an attempt to set up negotiations between US forces and local leaders, but as of April 12 had not been successful. At least one US battalion had orders to shoot any male of military age on the streets after dark, armed or not.[17] In violation of the Geneva Convention, the city’s main hospital was closed by Marines, negating its use, and a US sniper was placed on top of the hospital’s water tower.[18]

    There were also reports of the use of cluster bombs by US forces in Fallujah during this time, including reports from Al Jazeera on April 9 and 15, which US State Department spokesperson Richard Boucher later described as “totally false.”[19][unreliable source?] Similar reports came from several other sources who reported on 26 April 2004: “A spokesman for an Iraqi delegation from the violence-gripped city of Fallujah on Monday accused U.S. troops of using cluster bombs against the city and said they had asked the United Nations to mediate the conflict.[citation needed] Mohammed Tareq, a spokesman for the governing council of Fallujah and a member of the four-person delegation, said U.S. military snipers were also responsible for the deaths of many children, women and elderly people.” And the Economic Press Review reported on 17 April 2004: “American F-16 warplanes are blitzing the Al-Julan residential area in Al Fallujah 50 kilometers west from Baghdad with cluster bombs.”[citation needed]

    The ceasefire followed a wave of insurgency activity across southern Iraq, which included the capture of two US soldiers, seven employees of US military contractor Kellogg, Brown and Root, and more than 50 other workers in Iraq. Several of the prisoners were released within days of their capture, while the majority were executed.[citation needed]

    The US forces ostensibly sought to negotiate a settlement but promised to restart its offensive to retake the city if one was not reached. Military commanders said their goal in the siege was to capture those responsible for the numerous deaths of US and Iraqi security personnel. As the siege continued, insurgents conducted hit-and-run attacks on US Marine positions. The Marines had announced a unilateral ceasefire.[citation needed]
    Truce, May 2004

    At the beginning of May 2004, the US Marine Corps announced a ceasefire due to intense political pressure. Most of the fighting was limited to the southern industrial district, which, had the lowest population density inside the city limits and the northwest corner of the city in the Jolan district. There were also Marine battalions in the northeast and southern portion of the city. While both sides began preparations to resume offensives, General Conway took a risk and handed control of the city to a former Iraqi general with roughly 1,000 men who then formed the Fallujah Brigade, while acknowledging that many of the people under control of the general were probably insurgents themselves (no verification was provided). The general, Major General Muhammed Latif, replaced a US choice, Jasim Mohammed Saleh, who was alleged to have been involved in the earlier atrocities against Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war.[20] The ceasefire terms were to give control of Fallujah to General Latif on condition that Fallujah becomes a secure region for coalition forces and halt incoming mortar and rocket attacks on the nearby US bases. Latif’s militia wore Iraqi military uniforms from the Hussein era. Another tenet of the cease-fire was the establishment of a Traffic Control Point (TCP) on the eastern side of the city just west of the “cloverleaf”. This TCP was constantly manned by a platoon of Marines and a platoon from the Iraqi National Guard and saw almost daily firefights for the rest of the summer.

    Inside the city, mosques proclaimed the victory of the insurgents over the United States.[citation needed] Celebratory banners appeared around the city, and the fighters paraded through the town on trucks. Iraqi governing council member Ahmed Chalabi, after a bombing that killed fellow IGC member Izzadine Saleem, blamed the US military’s decisions in Fallujah for the attack, stating “The garage is open and car bombs are coming repeatedly.”[21]

    Fallujah, according to reporters who have visited in mid-summer, had since become a sort of Islamist mini-state, with Sharia law enforced by mujahedin.[citation needed] Owners of shops that sold US-style magazine and barbers who offered “Western-style” haircuts were beaten and publicly humiliated. Inter-faction fighting was also rampant.[22] The Fallujah Brigade was soon marginalized and ceased to be more than another faction in what had effectively become a no-go area for coalition troops.
    Counter-insurgency, May – November 2004

    Throughout the summer and fall of 2004, the U.S. military conducted sporadic airstrikes on Fallujah. U.S. forces reported that all were confirmed targeted, intelligence-based strikes against houses used by the group of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an insurgency leader linked to al-Qaida.

    In October and early November, 2004, the U.S. military prepared for a major offensive against the rebel stronghold with stepped up daily aerial attacks using precision-guided munitions[23] against militant “safe houses,” restaurants and meeting places in the city. U.S. Marines also engaged in firefights on a daily and nightly basis along the perimeter of the city. There were again conflicting reports of civilian casualties.[24]:256–267

    CNN incorrectly reported on October 14, 2004, that the US offensive assault on Fallujah had begun and broadcast a report from a young Marine outside Fallujah, 1st Lt. Lyle Gilbert, who announced that “troops have crossed the line of departure.” Hours later, CNN reported their Pentagon reporters had determined that the assault had not, in fact, begun. The Los Angeles Times reported on December 1, 2004, that, according to several unnamed Pentagon officials, the Marine’s announcement was a feint—part of an elaborate “psychological operation” (PSYOP) to determine the Fallujah rebels’ reactions if they believed attack was imminent.

    On November 7, 2004, the U.S.-appointed Iraq interim government declared a 60 day state of emergency in preparation for the assault, as insurgents carried out several car bomb attacks in the Fallujah area which killed Iraqi army and police, U.S. Marines and Iraqi civilians. The next day Prime Minister Iyad Allawi publicly authorized an offensive in Fallujah and Ramadi to “liberate the people” and “clean Fallujah from the terrorists”. Marines, U.S. Army soldiers and allied Iraqi soldiers stormed into Fallujah’s western outskirts, secured two bridges across the Euphrates, seized a hospital on the outskirts of the city and arrested about 50 men in the hospital. About half the arrested men were later released. A hospital doctor reported that 15 Iraqis were killed and 20 wounded during the overnight incursions. The US armed forces have designated the offensive as Operation Phantom Fury.

    In the first week of Operation Phantom Fury, government spokesman Thair al-Naqeeb said that many of the remaining fighters have asked to surrender and that Iraqi authorities “will extend amnesty” to those who have not committed major crimes.[25] At the same time, US forces prevented male refugees from leaving the combat zone, and the city was placed under a strict night-time shoot-to-kill curfew with anyone spotted in the Marines’ night vision sights shot.[26][27]
    U.S.–Iraqi offensive of November 7, 2004
    Main article: Second Battle of Fallujah

    Journalists embedded with U.S. military units, although limited in what they may report, have reported the following:

    On November 8, 2004, a force of around 2,000 U.S. and 600 Iraqi troops began a concentrated assault on Fallujah with air strikes, artillery, armor, and infantry. The New York Times reported that within an hour of the start of the ground attack, troops seized the Fallujah General Hospital. “Patients and hospital employees were rushed out of rooms by armed soldiers and ordered to sit or lie on the floor while troops tied their hands behind their backs”.[28] Noam Chomsky in his book Failed States commented that according to the Geneva Conventions, medical establishments “may in no circumstance be attacked, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict.” [29] Troops seized the rail yards North of the city, and pushed into the city simultaneously from the North and West taking control of the volatile Jolan and Askari districts. Rebel resistance was as strong as expected[citation needed], rebels fought very hard as they fell back. By nightfall on November 9, 2004, the U.S. troops had almost reached the heart of the city. U.S. military officials stated that 1,000 to 6,000 insurgents were believed to be in the city, they appear to be organized, and fought in small groups, of three to 25. Many insurgents were believed to have slipped away amid widespread reports that the U.S. offensive was coming. During the assault, Marines and Iraqi soldiers endured sniper fire and destroyed booby traps, much more than anticipated. Ten U.S. troops were killed in the fighting and 22 wounded in the first two days of fighting. Insurgent casualty numbers were estimated at 85 to 90 killed or wounded. Several more days of fighting were anticipated as U.S. and Iraqi troops conducted house-to-house searches for weapons, booby traps, and insurgents.
    On 9 November, CNN Correspondent Karl Penhaul reported the use of cluster bombs in the offensive: “The sky over Falluja seems to explode as U.S. Marines launch their much-trumpeted ground assault. War planes drop cluster bombs on insurgent positions and artillery batteries fire smoke rounds to conceal a Marine advance.”[30]
    November 10, 2004 reports by the Washington Post suggest that U.S. armed forces used white phosphorus grenades and/or artillery shells, creating walls of fire in the city. Doctors working inside Fallujah report seeing melted corpses of suspected insurgents.[31] The use of WP ammunition was confirmed from various independent sources, including U.S. troops who had suffered WP burns due to friendly fire. On November 16, 2005 The Independent reported that Pentagon spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Barry Venable “disclosed that (white phosphorus) had been used to dislodge enemy fighters from entrenched positions in the city”…”We use them primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases. However, it is an incendiary weapon and may be used against enemy combatants.”[32] But a day before, Robert Tuttle, the U.S. ambassador to London, denied that white phosphorus was deployed as a weapon: “US forces do not use napalm or white phosphorus as weapons.”[33][34]
    On November 13, 2004 a Red Crescent convoy containing humanitarian aid was delayed from entering Fallujah by the U.S. army.[35][36]
    On November 13, 2004, a U.S. Marine with 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines was videotaped killing a wounded and unarmed prisoner in a mosque. The incident, which came under investigation, created controversy throughout the world. The man was shot at close range after he and several other badly wounded Iraqi prisoners had previously been left behind overnight in the mosque by the U.S. Marines. The Marine shooting the man had been mildly injured by insurgents in the same mosque the day before.[37][38] In May 2005, it was announced that the Marine would not face a court-martial. In a statement, Maj. Gen. Richard F. Natonski, commanding general of the I Marine Expeditionary Force, said that a review of the evidence had shown that the shooting was “consistent with the established rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict.” [39]
    On November 16, 2004, a Red Cross official told Inter Press Service that “at least 800 civilians” had been killed in Fallujah and indicated that “they had received several reports from refugees that the military had dropped cluster bombs in Fallujah, and used a phosphorus weapon that caused severe burns.”[40]
    As of November 18, 2004, the U.S. military reported 1200 insurgents killed and 1000 captured. U.S. casualties were 51 killed and 425 wounded, and the Iraqi forces lost 8 killed and 43 wounded.[41]
    On December 2, 2004, the U.S. death toll in Fallujah operation reached 71 killed.[42]
    Some of the tactics said to be used by the insurgents included playing dead and attacking, surrendering and attacking, and rigging dead or wounded with bombs. In the November 13th incident mentioned above, the U.S. Marine alleged the insurgent was playing dead.[43]
    Of the 100 mosques in the city, about 60 were used as fighting positions by the insurgents.[citation needed] The U.S. and Iraqi military swept through all mosques used as fighting positions, destroying them, leading to great resentment from local residents.
    In 2005, the U.S. military admitted that it used white phosphorus as an anti-personnel weapon in Fallujah.[44]

    On 17 May 2011, AFP reported that 21 bodies, in black body-bags marked with letters and numbers in Roman script had been recovered from a mass grave in al-Maadhidi cemetery in the centre of the city. Fallujah police chief Brigadier General Mahmud al-Essawi said that they had been blindfolded, their legs had been tied and they had suffered gunshot wounds. The Mayor, Adnan Husseini said that the manner of their killing, as well as the body bags, indicated that US forces had been responsible. Both al-Essawi and Husseini agreed that the dead had been killed in 2004. The US Military declined to comment.[45]
    Aftermath

    Residents were allowed to return to the city in mid-December after undergoing biometric identification, provided they carry their ID cards all the time. US officials report that “more than half of Fallujah’s 39,000 homes were damaged, and about 10,000 of those were destroyed.” Compensation amounts to 20 percent of the value of damaged houses, with an estimated 32,000 homeowners eligible, according to Marine Lt. Col. William Brown.[46] According to the NBC,[47] 9,000 homes were destroyed, thousands more were damaged and of the 32,000 compensation claims only 2,500 had been paid as of April 14, 2005. According to Mike Marqusee of Iraq Occupation Focus writing in The Guardian,[48] “Falluja’s compensation commissioner has reported that 36,000 of the city’s 50,000 homes were destroyed, along with 60 schools and 65 mosques and shrines”. Reconstruction is only progressing slowly and mainly consists of clearing rubble from heavily-damaged areas and reestablishing basic utility services. This is also due to the fact that only 10% of the pre-offensive inhabitants had returned as of mid-January, and only 30% as of the end of March 2005.[49]

    Health effects

    Research by Chris Busby, Malak Hamdan and Entesar Ariabi published in 2010 lent credibility to anecdotal news reports of increases in birth defects and cancer after the fighting in 2004.[51] Results from a survey of 711 households in Fallujah on cancer, birth defects and infant mortality suggested that large increases in cancer and infant mortality had occurred. Responses to the questionnaire also suggested an anomalous mean birth sex ratio in children born a year after the fighting, indicating that environmental contamination occurred in 2004. Although the authors noted the use of depleted uranium as one possible source of relevant exposure, they emphasized that there could be other possibilities and that their results did not identify the agent(s) responsible for the increased levels of illness.

    #18490
    PA Ram
    Participant

    zn, I’ll just make this last post on it and give you the final word.

    At this point it’s clear to me we’re talking past each other.

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree and move on to the new Avengers film in May.

    I really don’t know what else to say about it. I just don’t know how else to say what I’m trying to say about it.

    Have you seen the film?

    If you saw it did you go in looking for this AFTER it became a big deal in the press? I only ask because that’s not at all what I got out of the film. I truly didn’t even notice that because I looked at the film and took something completely different from it. Maybe that’s part of what I brought to the theater with me and my expectations. I don’t know.

    I understand why you would be frustrated with this but we both look at this two different ways, for two different things. I really can’t explain this any better. I just can’t.

    I want to be clear that I am not arguing that this film represents THE truth. I don’t think I ever said that and if I did I didn’t mean to. I always said it represented HIS truth and that’s the point that I think we disagree about. I find that acceptable for this film and you do not.

    I thought there were things about the film that were very realistic and some things that weren’t.

    This was not my favorite film of the year(Gone Girl and Whiplash win that)and I don’t particularly care for Chris Kyle. He’s not someone I would have hung around with.

    But I think it’s a good film that addresses a subject of interest to me, a subject apart from the events of the war itself. And while that subject may be of no interest to anyone besides veterans, I can’t change the way I see it.

    So I’m going to permanently bow out of this thread. I think I’ve made the point I wanted to make and I think I understand your point and that there is a disagreement we will likely never resolve. And that’s okay.

    On the truth about the war, I agree with you completely.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #18496
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I want to be clear that I am not arguing that this film represents THE truth. I don’t think I ever said that and if I did I didn’t mean to. I always said it represented HIS truth and that’s the point that I think we disagree about. I find that acceptable for this film and you do not.

    Yes it’s absolutely no big deal that we disagree about this one film.

    Anyway.

    I saw the film. But I knew the history so DURING the film, I kept seeing how the narrative–the way the story works–underscores and supports the myths I have been complaining about. It’s not just HIS beliefs, the movie as a whole supports and repeats his beliefs at every single level. The story, not just the hero’s beliefs, is built around distortions of history. Not just any distortions of history. Bad ones, very dangerous ones (like the idea that they were fighting al qaida or that the iraqi insurgency was tied to al qaida). I saw how it was trying to be Saving Private Ryan (in a sense) but that in order to be that, it had to seriously distort history. The entire movie did. It was not just a case of them not challenging the hero’s beliefs–the very way they present the whole story of Fallujah reproduces his false beliefs.

    I don’t even think the movie tells “the truth” of HIS story since in fact “the truth” of his story is that he acted on, believed, supported, and repeated lies he himself believed. THAT is his REAL story.

    I remember the debates on the old huddle politics board about what the iraqi insurgencies were about (there was more than one) and I remember the board righties kept presenting this false picture it was easy to blow up. They didn’t get what the various insurgencies were, they didn’t get whose side we were on in Iraq, they didn’t get the nature of the conflicts there during the occupation, and so on. They just thought we were at war with Muslim Evil.

    Well the movie as a whole buys every myth those board righties were posting. All of them, down the line.

    #18530
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Not much here really, but I thot I’d post it for the heck of it:

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #18698
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I haven’t seen the movie, and never will. The trailer itself turned me off. Just seeing that it was directed by Eastwood was a turnoff because that suggested to me that it would be revisionist history wrapped up in glorified patriotism (which it turned out to be). I had no idea how BAD the revisionism was until I read this thread, but I can’t say I’m surprised.

    But I wouldn’t have watched this film even if it had been set in Imaginaryland and directed by someone else.

    The trailer itself painted a story line that disgusted me. It’s the story of a guy who is proud of killing hundreds of people, and the strain of performing those killings and of the explosions all around him gets to him, and he starts to buckle under the pressure.

    So I’m being asked to feel all sorry for the poor guy because it’s so stressful to kill hundreds of people. I’m supposed to feel compassion for HIM!

    Meanwhile, he has killed hundreds of people I am supposed to understand are worthless at best, but mostly just outright evil, and – really – the world is better off now that they’re dead.

    Yeah, I don’t think so. I’m not going to waste my time on a movie that is going to reinforce racial stereotypes and teach me contempt for brown people, and try to make me feel sorry for their executioner.

    And that this kind of storyline is swallowed without question by so many people in the world just makes me despair, frankly.

    #18711
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I haven’t seen the movie, and never will. The trailer itself turned me off. Just seeing that it was directed by Eastwood was a turnoff because that suggested to me that it would be revisionist history wrapped up in glorified patriotism (which it turned out to be). I had no idea how BAD the revisionism was until I read this thread, but I can’t say I’m surprised.

    But I wouldn’t have watched this film even if it had been set in Imaginaryland and directed by someone else.

    The trailer itself painted a story line that disgusted me. It’s the story of a guy who is proud of killing hundreds of people, and the strain of performing those killings and of the explosions all around him gets to him, and he starts to buckle under the pressure.

    So I’m being asked to feel all sorry for the poor guy because it’s so stressful to kill hundreds of people. I’m supposed to feel compassion for HIM!

    Meanwhile, he has killed hundreds of people I am supposed to understand are worthless at best, but mostly just outright evil, and – really – the world is better off now that they’re dead.

    Yeah, I don’t think so. I’m not going to waste my time on a movie that is going to reinforce racial stereotypes and teach me contempt for brown people, and try to make me feel sorry for their executioner.

    And that this kind of storyline is swallowed without question by so many people in the world just makes me despair, frankly.

    Yeah, but
    what about the cinematography 🙂

    Anywayz — what interests ‘me’ is that Pa
    likes it. Pa knows the politics and history
    and he still likes it. So…people are different.
    Thats all i got.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photowv.
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