Ukraine

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  • #137293
    wv
    Participant

    #137294
    wv
    Participant

    Yanis Varoufakis:https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2022/03/05/putins-criminal-invasion-europes-response-americas-role-avvenire-interview-english-version/

    “…What mistakes have European countries made to get to this point?

    Regarding Ukraine, Europe’s greatest error was to defer to Washington and to NATO. Washington misled successive Ukrainian governments with promises the United States was never going to keep, egging them on toward a confrontation with Moscow that endangered peace in Europe. In an important sense, the United States succeeded in justifying the expansion of NATO with the argument that NATO was the only shield from tensions the United States had helped create. Washington did not care about Ukraine or Europe. And Europe blindly played along, serving Washington’s interests by going along with America’s investment in tensions with Russia. History will condemn EU leaders for falling behind the US agenda and, for this, reason failing to fulfil the EU’s fundamental promise to Europeans: No war on our Continent.

    What is your opinion of Putin’s decisions?

    He will be included in History’s annals in the chapter reserved for brutal leaders who chose an avoidable war (rather than be forced into one). Long before Ukraine, to establish his regime, he had committed abominable war crimes in Chechnya. My greatest fear is that, if Ukrainians continue to resist bravely (which, make no mistake, I want them to!), he will flatten Kiyv with the same brutality that he demolished Grozny, killing tens of thousands of civilians.

    #137207
    Billy_T
    Participant

    ‘Which do you think best describes Russia?’ Communist: 42% Socialist: 13% Capitalist: 11% Something Else: 17% YouGov / March 1, 2022 / n=1495 / Online https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/aa58ig9d3b/econTabReport.pdf

    That poll is depressing. The USSR was never communist, at least not beyond small enclaves. Communism being the absence of the state, you can’t have a communist nation-state. Nor was it socialist. It was state capitalist, as Lenin said. He said he had to yank Russia into the 20th century, establish capitalism to do so, and socialism could wait. And they waited, and waited, and waited, and it never happened. After 1991, of course, it went hyper-ultra-capitalist, outdoing even the US on those grounds. Pretty absurd that such a large number of people think post-USSR Russia is communist or socialist. Emma Goldman wrote this back in 1936: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-is-no-communism-in-russia

    Well, that’s depressing, but not surprising. US citizens know nothing about the world beyond our borders. And as the world grows smaller, it seems like we become more and more disconnected with it. We The People are willfully invested in not wanting to know about anything outside of the US. Climate change, habitat destruction, war – the world is on fire, and we’re relying on a population that doesn’t know or care what a fire hose is to somehow muster the political will to extinguish it.

    Agreed. Leaning into despair far too often these days. I think the US reaction to the pandemic sealed the deal for me, once and for all.

    We live in a country with a very large percentage of idiots, and those idiots tend all too often to be the loudest, most aggressive, and often the most violent among us, almost as if they’re proud of their idiocy. Climate Change, inequality, the pandemic . . . support for a fascist coup, support for the most overtly sadistic, mendacious, bigoted conman in our history . . . Far too many Americans think night is day, black is white, right is left, and so on.

    We live in strange times, constantly shaking up our assumptions and moral compasses. Testing my own view of humanity, as I’ve long believed in the fundamental goodness of people . . . that it’s just a tiny percentage at the top causing our woes. The sociopath 1%, basically. Lately, I’ve been doubting my own theories more and more, and that depresses the hell out of me.

    #137310
    zn
    Moderator

    #137315
    wv
    Participant

    #137316
    wv
    Participant

    #137318
    wv
    Participant

    ray mcgovern / mearsheimer

    “….this will have terrible consequences for the Democrats in the fall…”

    ==

    #137325
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Our friend, Nathan J. Robinson, has a good article on the overall discussion of Ukraine:

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/03/can-we-have-an-intelligent-adult-conversation-about-russia

    ___

    His article, along with much of the back and forth in recent days, has me thinking about an obvious missing piece of this puzzle. Of course, we can always keep going back in time and find some new “origin” for these conflicts. We can even go back before these nation-states even existed, obviously. But I think a major starting point being lost here is this:

    NATO’s current boundaries are close to the boundaries of Europe prior to WWII. NATO has basically just gone back to the Europe before that war, and prior to the USSR’s imperialist expansion westward at war’s end and its aftermath. Too much of the discussion, IMO, seems to just assume NATO “expansion” happened in countries that somehow formerly belonged to Russia somehow. Um, no. They were conquered by force and absorbed into the Soviet Empire. Yes, there was a pincer movement by both the US and Russia to extend their respective spheres of influence and exploit war’s end to one degree or another. They both tried to carve up Europe and elsewhere to suit their own imperialistic ambitions. But from the European perspective, the Warsaw Pact countries were always a part of Europe, and never a part of Russia.

    National boundaries suck. The concept of nation-states is a (deadly) fiction. But if we’re going to deal with them as factual entities, we shouldn’t fall into all too convenient cut-off dates. We should try to find the point in history when these factual entities held their most authentic form for the longest period of time — at least in relative terms.

     

    #137338
    zn
    Moderator

    Staff at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant in Ukraine sent a message to Ukrainian media and government authorities warning that the Russian troops that took the plant are now laying down explosives around it in order to “blackmail the whole of Europe.”

    I’ve seen reports casting doubt on this entire story. For example journalists are now saying the plant was never bombed or shelled. It’s a story in flux and it looks like it’s way too soon to be worrying about this.

    #137346
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    #137347
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    #137369
    zn
    Moderator

    #137415
    zn
    Moderator

    #137418
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Chomsky:

     

    #137427
    wv
    Participant

    #137429
    Billy_T
    Participant

    https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/conservatives-duped-by-disinformation-campaign-claim-us-is-holding-bioweapons-in-ukraine/

    Conservatives duped by Russia disinformation campaign, claim U.S. is holding bioweapons in Ukraine
    Russia appears to be planting false stories about U.S. bioweapons in Ukraine – and conservatives are falling for it
    By Jon Skolnik
    Published March 10, 2022 5:14PM (EST)

    Right-wing personalities are spreading baseless notion that the U.S. is producing bioweapons in Ukraine, a Kremlin-backed conspiracy theory apparently used to justify Russia’s devastating invasion of Ukraine.

    The theory, reported by Media Matters, was publicly presented during a Tuesday Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing in which Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., asked Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland whether Ukraine has access to “chemical or biological weapons.”

    Nuance responded that Ukraine has “biological research facilities” that the State Department is concerned might fall into Russian hands.

    Later, Rubio noted that “Russian propaganda groups” are spreading “information about how they have uncovered a plot by the Ukrainians to unleash biological weapons in the country.”
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    To that point, Nuance acknowledged that “it is a classic Russian technique to blame the other guy for what they are planning to do themselves.”

    While U.S. intelligence officials have repeatedly denied possessing bioweapons in Ukraine, members of QAnon have spread the theory near and far – and now, it’s getting validation from mainstream conservatives with massive followings.

    On Wednesday, Fox News host Tucker Carlson suggested that Nuland, who suggested that Russia might be using disinformation tactics, was in fact the one waging a propaganda campaign against Russia.

    “So what you are saying, Victoria Nuland, if, for example, you were funding secret bio-labs in Ukraine but wanted to hide that fact from the people who were paying for it in whose name you are doing it, then you might lie about it by claiming the Russians were lying about it,” Carlson ranted. “In other words, you might mount a disinformation campaign by claiming the other guy was mounting a disinformation campaign. Is that what you are saying, Victoria Nuland?”

    Ex-Trump advisor Steve Bannon echoed a similarly meandering line of thinking that same day, instructing Florida residents to ask Rubio whether the CIA and Defense Department gave him specific questions to stick to in the hearing.

    “What are they creating?” Bannon asked of the agencies. “Are we involved in any way? Have we financed it? Are we partners? Do we actually know what’s going on?”

    Trump national security adviser Mike Flynn was even more to the point, declaring that the U.S. had somehow admitted to developing bioweapons in Ukraine.

    “I was told that biolabs in Ukraine was a conspiracy theory yet here we are,” Flynn wrote over Telegram. “They are now admitting it openly.”

    While it is true that the U.S. has biolabs in Ukraine, there is no evidence that the U.S. is building bioweapons with them. In fact, the U.S. operation of these labs stems from a 2005 agreement between Ukraine and the U.S. to secure old Soviet-era weapons that were left behind in the aftermath of the Soviet Union’s disintegration, CNN noted.

    “The US Department of Defense’s Biological Threat Reduction Program works with the Ukrainian government to consolidate and secure pathogens and toxins of security concern in Ukrainian government facilities, while allowing for peaceful research and vaccine development,” the U.S. embassy explained back in 2020.
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    According to CNN, the theory that the U.S. is holding bioweapons in Ukraine typically flares up during times in which Russia is under intense international scrutiny. Kremlin agents have been known to plant pro-Russia stories in fringe media outlets, which results in conspiracy theories percolating to more mainstream personalities with larger audiences

    Jon Skolnik

    Jon Skolnik is a staff writer at Salon. His work has appeared in Current Affairs, The Baffler, and The New York Daily News.
    MORE FROM Jon Skolnik • FOLLOW jonsskolnik

    #137431
    Billy_T
    Participant

    From my point of view, pretty much everything the right believes is dead wrong, and dangerously so. Their track record for being accurate on the issues is basically 0 for 2 gazillion. So it’s not a good sign when some leftists are on the same page with the far-right, and when it comes to Russia, it seems to happen all too often.

    Being skeptical about government info is wise. On a case by case basis, it often warrants much stronger reactions than that — outright dismissal all the way thru fury. What’s unwise is to assume that we should only feel that way about the US or “the West,” and not the rest of the world’s ruling classes, establishments, institutions, etc.

    A pox on all their houses.

    In short, I think some leftists (with audiences) are all too eager to (instantly) believe the worst about the US and the West, while failing to properly vet the info they utilize. In the case of Ukraine, more often than not, that info comes from the GOP or Putin, not objective, credible sources.

    I know that saying the above isn’t likely to be popular with some of my fellow leftists. But I think it’s incontrovertibly true. Skepticism should be applied across the board, especially in times of war.

    #137445
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Thread to remind us of the ramifications of nuclear war…

    #137448
    wv
    Participant

    I’m waiting for the capitalist-media to tell me Putin is

    murdering babies in incubators.

     

    w

    v

    #137450
    Billy_T
    Participant

    I’m waiting for the capitalist-media to tell me Putin is murdering babies in incubators. w v

    Tragically, (as you know) virtually all the world’s media are capitalist, though it would actually be easier than many believe to change that**.

    The key for me is just tell the truth, be accurate, no matter who pulls the strings. IMO, however, it’s not helpful to answer one cartoonish portrayal with another. As in, if Putin is being portrayed as a Marvel super-villain, it’s not productive to paint the US and the West in the same way. No cartoons, period, is better.

    ___

    **Took a look at Caitlin Johnstone’s About page, after your h/t. Found it interesting, but I think she’s a bit confused as to what “capitalism” actually is and isn’t. She could actually receive direct payment for her craft and remain non-capitalist. She doesn’t have to ask for donations only to stay clean.

    Long before capitalism existed, writers, craftsmen, artists, artisans, small farmers, etc. etc. took payment for their work. It’s not “money for work” that makes one a capitalist. It’s buying labor (as a commodity) to produce a commodity for money that does it. M-C-M and exchange value, with the capitalist appropriating the surplus value of his or her workforce as if he or she did all the work. The larger picture adding competitive laws of motion, Grow or Die, etc. That endless trap of production for profit, growth, pollution, waste, more, more, and more. All of that creates neck-breaking hierarchies and guarantees horrific levels of inequality too.

    Ms. Johnstone could write for payment and stay clean, and leftist media could do the same, scale up, share ownership, share the fruits, and stay clean. Flatten hierarchies to the extent possible. Logically, that flattens inequality too — at least when and where this is applied.

     

    #137936
    wv
    Participant

    Just somethin i skimmed.

    “…Contrary to the narratives with which the Western public has been inundated, Ukrainian refugees expressed largely divergent positions on the causes and potential outcomes of the conflict. This reporter witnessed EU-zone reporters gravitating toward the far fewer refugees who held pro-Kyiv positions. Not a single foreign press crew had a Russian- or Ukrainian-speaking member in tow, making it less likely they would hear from working-class Ukrainians, who mainly spoke Ukrainian or Russian…”

    link:https://unac.notowar.net/2022/03/26/exclusive-ukrainian-refugees-in-moldova-spare-no-words-on-zelensky-govt/

    #137943
    wv
    Participant

    One moon’s opinion:

    #137983
    Zooey
    Moderator

    #137996
    Zooey
    Moderator

    #141792
    Zooey
    Moderator

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