Trump and associates lied repeatedly about Russia.

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  • #73438
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    We keep learning more and more about direct contacts, which Trump and his team had previously said didn’t exist. And they’ve denied this under oath and on their federal security forms. When asked about it, they scream “fake news,” but invariably, we then discover, yes, there was contact, and, yes, there is evidence for that, including emails.

    Anyone who claims everyone is against Trump needs to explain how he’s still in the White House. Because no other politician in our history has survived a fraction of what Trump has survived, as far as endless lies, corrupt practices, stonewalling, attempts to crush investigations, obstruction of justice, etc. etc. No one in our history has ever gotten away with so much, most of it involving making himself, his family and his associates richer and richer.

    If we don’t put him and his associates behind bars, we will have enabled the most corrupt presidency in our history to drag on and on.

    An amazing timeline on Trump from the Bill Moyers website, prior to the latest revelations about even more contacts with Russia.

    Interactive Timeline: Everything We Know About Russia and President Trump Explore our updated, comprehensive Trump-Russia Timeline — or select one of the central players in the Trump-Russia saga to see what we know about them.

    #73439
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    The most recent revelations, not yet included on the Bill Moyers timeline include:

    Top Trump Organization executive asked Putin aide for help on business deal

    and the revelations about Felix Sater:

    Trump Associate Boasted That Moscow Business Deal ‘Will Get Donald Elected’ By MATT APUZZO and MAGGIE HABERMAN AUG. 28, 2017

    Excerpt:

    WASHINGTON — A business associate of President Trump promised in 2015 to engineer a real estate deal with the aid of the president of Russia, Vladimir V. Putin, that he said would help Mr. Trump win the presidency.

    The associate, Felix Sater, wrote a series of emails to Mr. Trump’s lawyer, Michael Cohen, in which he boasted about his ties to Mr. Putin. He predicted that building a Trump Tower in Moscow would highlight Mr. Trump’s savvy negotiating skills and be a political boon to his candidacy.

    “Our boy can become president of the USA and we can engineer it,” Mr. Sater wrote in an email. “I will get all of Putins team to buy in on this, I will manage this process.”

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    #73452
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    BT i have a different view of all this Russia/Trump stuff. Or maybe I should put it this way — i have a shitload of questions.

    One of my questions would be how many other bigtime politicians have had contacts with representatives of other nations during campaigns? Israel for example. How many candidates have sucked up to Israel during and after their campaigns? Hillary? Obama? Bush? Reagan? All of em? Why isnt There a drumbeat about THAT in the NY-Times and Wash-post?

    That would be just one of my questions. I have a gazillion that have to do with ‘context’ of all these Russia questions.

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    #73453
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    BT i have a different view of all this Russia/Trump stuff. Or maybe I should put it this way — i have a shitload of questions.

    One of my questions would be how many other bigtime politicians have had contacts with representatives of other nations during campaigns? Israel for example. How many candidates have sucked up to Israel during and after their campaigns? Hillary? Obama? Bush? Reagan? All of em? Why isnt There a drumbeat about THAT in the NY-Times and Wash-post?

    That would be just one of my questions. I have a gazillion that have to do with ‘context’ of all these Russia questions.

    w
    v

    I think the main difference between past and present is this, aside from the ginormous number of lies. And we’ve never seen even a fraction of that before Trump:

    Trump could not get loans from the vast majority of banks outside of Russia. He was — and still is — in deep debt. His connections with Russia entail the Russian Mob, and he has a history with the Mob here. He desperately needed Russian money prior to the election, during the election and now, and he has shown since the election that he won’t criticize Putin or Russia for its attempts to expand its empire, and keeps fighting against any sanctions. He’s also given them classified intel, after kicking out American media from the Oval Office.

    That’s the quid pro quo Russia was looking for. They cultivated Trump and his business associates going back decades, and saw in Trump someone they could use. And there’s no doubt they have.

    There is just no comparison between Trump’s massive debts/connection to Russia and any previous candidate/president and any other nation. One might argue that’s because we’ve never had someone who had such a huge corporation, family owned or not. But, to me, that can’t be used an excuse. It should in fact be a major lesson for this country. Just don’t elect someone with massive business interests all around the world, especially when they refuse to give them up. There is simply no way on earth anyone can build up businesses that widespread without corrupt practices — and he’s gone bankrupt six times.

    Yes, by all means, every candidate should be scrutinized for their foreign ties. But Trump is sui generis.

    #73454
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    To make a long story short, WV . . . It’s just not close. No other candidate/president comes within light years of the amount of lying or the endless trail of shady business practices or outright corruption. No other candidate/president comes within light years of so many close ties to a foreign adversary, or has sought to protect them to such a degree.

    To me, it’s one thing to say a pox on all of their houses, which I do. But there’s also such a thing as being demonstrably worse than all the other crooked pols, and Trump is in the White House right now. They aren’t.

    #73456
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    To make a long story short, WV . . . It’s just not close. No other candidate/president comes within light years of the amount of lying or the endless trail of shady business practices or outright corruption. No other candidate/president comes within light years of so many close ties to a foreign adversary, or has sought to protect them to such a degree.

    To me, it’s one thing to say a pox on all of their houses, which I do. But there’s also such a thing as being demonstrably worse than all the other crooked pols, and Trump is in the White House right now. They aren’t.

    =================

    I just dont know that that is true, BT. First off I dont think of Russia as an ‘adversary’. Why are they ‘my’ adversary? They might be the CIA’s adversary, but they aint mine.

    And second, i just dont know if Trump had more ties to foreign governments than, say, Clinton or Bush or any of the others. These things are often done in secret. So how would we know? How do we know who those princes from Saudi Arabia talk to?

    I’m not defending Trump, btw. I loathed him long before he became a politician.

    Matt Taibbi had an interesting comment a while back on Trump. He was asked about this russian shit storm, and he said basically (i think) that he thought when all was said and done that Trump and his people would not be found to be doing ‘traitorous’ things, but instead just banal money-grubbing type stuff. Personal enrichment stuff. That kind of corruption.

    At any rate, my thing is the big picture now. The big system. What is it, and what is it doing, and what happened to the citizens to allow such a thing to happen.

    Its a big fat Lie-Machine. And the citizen-victims…what are they now ?
    Billy we live in a gangster-state. I mean take the ‘education’ system — how is it that the most powerful secret-lie-factory in the Western-world — that would be the CIA — is never even mentioned in grade-school, high-school, etc ?

    Its never even mentioned. No-one talks about it, no-one asks about it.

    Now what does that mean to YOU ? What does it say about the amerikan system and the american citizenry ?

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    #73458
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    PS – I think Trumps Domestic Policies are worse than any President in my lifetime.

    I’m not sure i know what his foreign policies even ‘are’ so I dunno about them.

    His environmental policies alone are enough to make him the worst President in history, i would think.

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    #73472
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I just dont know that that is true, BT. First off I dont think of Russia as an ‘adversary’. Why are they ‘my’ adversary? They might be the CIA’s adversary, but they aint mine.

    Yes they are your adversary. If looked at logically, absolutely. And more importantly, the adversary of the Russian people themselves, which is something that also deserves attention too.

    It;’s the RUSSIAN line that they are simply these reactive pawns in an American/Nato game. One of the massively disappointing things to me about the left in the last few years is how many of them swallow that Russian line. It’s not real. It;’s just successful propaganda.

    And then many act like you have to choose. BS. Listen to Russian leftists. Anyone not doing that does not know this issue. And I will stand by that statement, for very good reasons.

    ..,.

    #73479
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Yes, by all means, every candidate should be scrutinized for their foreign ties. But Trump is sui generis.

    Yeah there’s no escaping this.

    In fact it;s not just that he’s the worst, he may be the ONLY. A long long closely examined historical record, and no other president has ties to a foreign power that involved straightforward corruption and collusion this way. It has never happened before. I don’t see how republicans can whitewash this with such impunity.

    And it;s not even the worst thing about Trump.

    #73483
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    PS – I think Trumps Domestic Policies are worse than any President in my lifetime.

    I’m not sure i know what his foreign policies even ‘are’ so I dunno about them.

    His environmental policies alone are enough to make him the worst President in history, i would think.

    w
    v

    I agree with all of that. But we do know a few things about his foreign policy, as ad hoc as it seems to be:

    1. He has publicly called for the invasion of Venezuela, and has increased the sanctions regime already in place.

    2. He came close to provoking a nuclear war with NK, which still isn’t resolved. He talked about bringing “fire and fury” to them the likes of which the world has never seen.

    3. He loosened the “rules of engagement” in all our war theaters, because he actually believes “PC” is handcuffing our troops. The numbers of dead civilians have gone up drastically since he gave that order.

    4. He threatened to invade Mexico — on the phone with its president — if they didn’t shut down the cartels.

    5. He has threatened regime change in Iran, and constantly rattles his saber at that part of the world.

    6. He reversed Obama’s (admittedly all too moderate) attempt at detente with Cuba, and upped the sanctions.

    7. He has praised brutal dictators around the world, like Duterte in the Philippines and the Saudi royal house.

    Just off the top of my head . . .

    #73484
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Yes they are your adversary. If looked at logically, absolutely. And more importantly, the adversary of the Russian people themselves, which is something that also deserves attention too.

    It;’s the RUSSIAN line that they are simply these reactive pawns in an American/Nato game. One of the massively disappointing things to me about the left in the last few years is how many of them swallow that Russian line. It’s not real. It;’s just successful propaganda.

    And then many act like you have to choose. BS. Listen to Russian leftists. Anyone not doing that does not know this issue. And I will stand by that statement, for very good reasons.

    ..,.

    I think all of us here would argue that the Russia people are not our adversary. That’s implied. This is about the “state.” A state to state matter. It’s kinda like the obviously justified and heavy condemnation of Likud having nothing to do with Jews as a people.

    My own belief is . . . and it’s really difficult to express this without sounding pretentious or pie in the sky . . . but I see myself as a citizen of the world, not of any one nation. I don’t believe in the fiction of national borders. It doesn’t exist for Capital and capitalists; why should it exists for the rest of us?

    That said, the role of government should be to improve the lives of its citizenry, first and foremost. I’d add that any wealthy nation should also share its wealth with the world and improve the lot of the human population across the board to the degree possible. But it’s logical to assume it should start within the nation first. Otherwise, we might as well just go to a Star Trek world government form . . . which would be my preference anyway . . . but I also realize we need a coupla more generations at least to be able to handle that kind of enlightened response.

    Bottom line: I think from the point of view of state to state dynamics, yeah, the Russian state is our adversary. But we should never, ever forget that the people aren’t the state.

    #73485
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    And more importantly, the adversary of the Russian people themselves, which is something that also deserves attention too.

    I think from the point of view of state to state dynamics, yeah, the Russian state is our adversary. But we should never, ever forget that the people aren’t the state.

    I hope it’s clear we said the exact same thing there.

    That is–one reason (among others) we should oppose the Putin state is because he himself is an adversary of the Russian people. So we agree on that.

    Honest, what I would like to see more of in this ongoing issue is some stuff from actual Russian leftists opposed to the Putin state.

    #73486
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    And more importantly, the adversary of the Russian people themselves, which is something that also deserves attention too.

    I think from the point of view of state to state dynamics, yeah, the Russian state is our adversary. But we should never, ever forget that the people aren’t the state.

    I hope it’s clear we said the exact same thing there.

    That is–one reason (among others) we should oppose the Putin state is because he himself is an adversary of the Russian people. So we agree on that.

    Honest, what I would like to see more of in this ongoing issue is some stuff from actual Russian leftists opposed to the Putin state.

    I agree. Putin is the enemy of the Russian people. I think our two-party structure also goes heavily against the interests of the vast majority of this country, and we have our own forms of state-on-citizen violence too. And I’m guessing that’s a big part of WV’s point. But the degree of violence isn’t the same, nor is the degree to which the two states rip off the people.

    While both do, Putin and his fellow Russian oligarchs have taken this to a whole new level. It’s reported he’s managed to hoard roughly 200 billion in wealth, while being — as far as we know — a “public servant” his entire adult life.

    The everyday corruption of American pols is just dwarfed by the scale occurring in Russia, which pretty much started as soon as the Soviet Union fell in 1991. Some 15 million Russians died as a result of the switch from state capitalism — they never had actual socialism — to its warp-speed, kleptocratic neoliberalism.

    As for Russian leftists now. Yes. I’d love to read their views. Would have to search for them. It’s much easier to find their writings from the late 19th to early 20th century. The vast majority of them opposed the Bolsheviks and would have condemned the neoliberal kleptocrats even more.

    #73487
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    As for Russian leftists now. Yes. I’d love to read their views. Would have to search for them.

    I;ve posted some.

    This is not something one typically says, but…it’s must read stuff for this general topic.

    What I mean specifically is Russian leftists from today who are critical of the Putin regime.

    In its own different way it’s like reading Israelis critical of Israeli policies.

    ,.

    #73492
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I just dont know that that is true, BT. First off I dont think of Russia as an ‘adversary’. Why are they ‘my’ adversary? They might be the CIA’s adversary, but they aint mine.

    Yes they are your adversary. If looked at logically, absolutely. And more importantly, the adversary of the Russian people themselves, which is something that also deserves attention too.

    It;’s the RUSSIAN line that they are simply these reactive pawns in an American/Nato game. One of the massively disappointing things to me about the left in the last few years is how many of them swallow that Russian line. It’s not real. It;’s just successful propaganda.

    And then many act like you have to choose. BS. Listen to Russian leftists. Anyone not doing that does not know this issue. And I will stand by that statement, for very good reasons.

    ..,.

    ===============

    Ok, so we disagree on that.

    The US Government is more my ‘adversary’ than the Rooskies.

    w
    v

    #73511
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Here Are Trump’s 3 Biggest Lies About the Russia Scandal

    link: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/here-are-trumps-3-biggest-lies-about-the-russia-scandal-1/

    Since the eruption of the Russia scandal, President Donald Trump and his allies have consistently lied and deceived regarding assorted aspects of the controversy. Recent news stories revealing that Trump pursued a tower project in Moscow while running for president—despite his repeated insistence that he has no business dealing in Russia—are a reminder of how brazen these untruths have been. Overall, Trump has amassed a serious record of prevarication. But he and his gang have outdone themselves when lying about the Russia investigation. So much so that one can well wonder, with full suspicion, why Trump and his crew have resorted to such huge lies.

    Here’s a brief review of the top three falsehoods they have attempted to sell.

    No collusion

    Trump has declared over and over that there was no collusion between his campaign and Vladimir Putin’s regime, which, according to the US intelligence community, mounted a covert operation to subvert the 2016 election to help Trump become president. On May 8, Trump tweeted, “The Russia-Trump collusion story is a total hoax, when will this taxpayer funded charade end?” He maintained he was the victim of Democratic conspiracy-mongering: “Again, the story that there was collusion between the Russians & Trump campaign was fabricated by Dems as an excuse for losing the election.” At a May news conference, he proclaimed, “The entire thing has been a witch hunt. And there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but I can always speak for myself—and the Russians, zero.” The next month, he tweeted, “After 7 months of investigations & committee hearings about my ‘collusion with the Russians,’ nobody has been able to show any proof. Sad!” He claimed that any talk of collusion was unfair to him: “There is no collusion & no obstruction. I should be given apology!”

    There is no question collusion occurred. The only question is if there was any other collaboration.
    Yet there was collusion. The proof is Donald Trump Jr.’s emails. In July, Trump Jr., racing to beat a New York Times story that was about to appear, posted emails showing that he and his father’s campaign had tried to plot with a top Kremlin official to acquire dirt on Hillary Clinton. The emails revealed that Aras Agalarov, a Russian oligarch developer and Trump business partner, informed Trump Jr. (via his son Emin Agalarov, a pop singer, and Emin’s manager, Rob Goldstone) that the prosecutor general of Russia, a Putin ally, wished to provide the Trump campaign with information that would incriminate Clinton. The emails noted this effort would be part of the Putin regime’s hush-hush “support for Mr. Trump.”

    Trump Jr. quickly and eagerly arranged a meeting with a Russian emissary supposedly bearing the Clinton information, and on June 9, 2016, Trump Jr.; Jared Kushner, Trump’s son in law; and Paul Manafort, the Trump’s campaign top official, met with several Russians to receive the anti-Clinton information. After this meeting was exposed a month and a half ago, the Trump camp maintained that nothing had come out of the meeting between the Trump advisers and the Russians. No dirt was snagged. But there can be no denying (in a reality-based world) that the Trumpers were colluding with Russians. They just—in their account—didn’t get what they wanted. But given that the Trump camp initially lied about the nature of the meeting and its attendees, only a sucker would accept their account at face value. Whatever the outcome of the get-together, this is a solid instance of conspiring between Trump’s top lieutenants and prominent Russians. There is no question collusion occurred. The only question is if there was any other collaboration.

    Nothing to see here

    From the moment the news broke that the Democratic National Committee had been penetrated by hackers associated with Russian intelligence—a story that hit the headlines a mere five days after Trump Jr., Kushner, and Manafort met with the Russians—Trump and his aides immediately challenged the notion that Moscow was behind this break-in. The Trump campaign’s first response to the DNC breach was to blame the victim. It released an absurd statement: “We believe it was the DNC that did the ‘hacking’ as a way to distract from the many issues facing their deeply flawed candidate and failed party leader.” And in the weeks and months ahead, Trump and his mouthpieces regularly maintained there was no evidence the Russians were hacking the election. But Trump’s most senior advisers had been informed (see above) that Putin’s regime was aiming to intervene secretly to hurt Clinton and benefit Trump. More than anyone, they knew their claim that Russia was not involved in political skullduggery was hollow.

    More than anyone, Trump’s advisers knew their claim that Russia was not involved in political skullduggery was hollow.
    In August 2016, Trump, as the GOP nominee, received an intelligence briefing and was reportedly told that the US intelligence community by then had concluded Moscow was behind the DNC hack and the subsequent dissemination of information stolen from the Democrats. Still, Trump kept denying Russian involvement. At the first presidential debate, he quipped that the DNC hacker “could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, okay?”

    He has essentially continued this line ever since. The few times he has acknowledged Russia was the perp, he has quickly added that it could also have been another bad actor. So though his own campaign had direct, firsthand evidence that Putin’s government intended to muck about in the campaign to boost Trump’s chances, Trump has cast doubt on whether anything of the sort happened. This lie was rather consequential, for it made it tougher for Republicans to join President Barack Obama and other Democrats in fashioning a nonpartisan response to Putin’s clandestine operation. With Trump insisting there was no Russian connection, it was difficult for any GOP leader, in the heat of a presidential campaign, to say otherwise. Trump’s deployment of this false assertion muddied the public narrative and provided cover for Russian intelligence’s assault on American democracy.

    No business with Russia

    Trump has repeatedly proclaimed he has no commercial interactions with Russia. One example: Nine days before moving into the White House, he tweeted, “I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA – NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!”

    At the time of the tweet, there was already ample evidence in the public record that Trump had endeavored for three decades to strike major business deals in Russia. He had made a bundle of money marketing and selling properties to Russians. He had pocketed at least $12 million in income from the Miss Universe contest he held in Moscow in 2013. And after that event, he and Aras Agalarov signed a letter of intent to build a Trump Tower in the Russian capital—a project that fizzled out.

    This week, the Washington Post reported that Trump signed a letter of intent on October 28, 2015—the same day he participated in a GOP primary debate—with a Russian firm to develop a Trump Tower in Moscow. While he was campaigning for president, he was, in a way, moonlighting in Moscow. Michael Cohen, Trump’s longtime private lawyer and adviser, even sent an email to Putin’s office looking for assistance with the project. (In a statement provided to the House Intelligence Committee, Cohen said he never heard back from the Kremlin.) Like the earlier deal with Agalarov, this project stalled and was over by the end of January, according to Cohen. But here was Trump trying to cook up a huge project in Moscow as he was seeking the White House. This certainly supplies one explanation for the many Putin-friendly statements Trump made on the campaign trail and his refusal to criticize Putin. A developer hoping to strike it big in Russia could not afford to tick off the Russian strongman.

    When President Bill Clinton was under investigation for having lied about his relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, he was asked about a statement he had made under oath insisting “there’s nothing going on between us.” To explain this remark, he said, “It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is”—suggesting that his comment had been true because he was not having sex with Lewinsky at the time he was queried about it. And for that, Clinton has been soundly derided for almost two decades. Trump’s oft-stated claim that he has no business involvement with Russia is not as juicy a lie as the famous Clinton whopper. But it falls into the same category. Trump knew he had tried to pull off a major business deal—one that could not happen without support from Putin and the Kremlin—yet he made it sound as if he was a virgin when it came to financial relations with Russia.

    There have been other instances of Trump swilling falsehoods related to the Russia scandal. He has issued contradictory statements about whether he has ever met or communicated directly with Putin. He also claimed that he fired FBI Director James Comey because of how he had handled the Hillary Clinton email server investigation. (Then Trump conceded the Russia investigation was part of the reason for his abrupt dismissal of Comey—which special counsel Robert Mueller might be investigating as possible obstruction of justice.) But his biggest lies are foundational: There was indeed active collusion between the senior ranks of Trump’s campaign and Russia; Trump and his campaign aides falsely insisted Russia was not intervening in the campaign when they had reason to know otherwise; and Trump had business connections to Russia from the 1980s through the first half of his presidential campaign.

    Any one of these lies ought to be a major scandal in and of itself. Each one is a hoax. None should get lost in the quick shuffle of news cycles and the cascade of fresh outrages. They provide cause to disbelieve and distrust any utterance Trump or a surrogate makes about the Russia investigation—an investigation that at its core is about the credibility of the commander in chief and the legitimacy of his presidency.

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