Time to fire Fisher.

While I think that you can make the case to fire Fisher, I really don’t think they’ve quit on him.

There is a certain ineptness in some of the things that happen but I don’t think it’s quitting. I think it’s a combination of certain types of players(Cook, Robinson–just don’t have their heads in the game)injuries(which ALWAYS seems to be a thing)lack of quarterback(Fisher just flat out missed on Foles)and actually questionable handling of the building of this offense and perhaps even its offensive philosophy.

The next part is pure speculative nonsense on my part but I’m going to say it anyway because I can always deny it later. I look at Shottenheimer leaving and the difficulty getting a replacement and I wonder how much of that are OCs feeling boxed in with Fisher’s offensive philosophy–the things he won’t do or allow them to do. Maybe it’s not a desirable job.
How much impact does he have on the offense? Didn’t Shaw want Vermeil to bring in Martz? And didn’t Vermeil have the good sense to let Martz do his thing only occasionally interfering? Maybe Fisher is more of a control freak about that.

I don’t know that any of that is true but it’s just one of those thoughts that cross my mind in the early hours of the morning after a night of bad dreams.

In any case–yes–it’s perfectly reasonable to fire Fisher.

But not because the team has quit on him.

Having said that–he’s not going anywhere.

zn wrote:

PA Ram wrote:

I look at Shottenheimer leaving and the difficulty getting a replacement and I wonder how much of that are OCs feeling boxed in with Fisher’s offensive philosophy

It’s not like Fisher’s “philosophy” (which I think is frequently misunderstood anyway) is rare, uncommon, or strange.

According to the logic you’re using there, no coordinator would want the Seattle job. Or the 49ers job in the Harbaugh years. And so on.

Fact is, the league consists of different offensive approaches, and they all manage to find coordinators.

I don’t buy this idea that what Fisher wants on offense (a balanced attack with play-action and which takes shots and aims at big plays) is all that unique, strange, different, dated, uncommon, or “wrong.”

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Yeah–I’m throwing a lot of stuff out there, I get that. But why does Fisher fail, time and again–on that side of the football? I guess I’m wondering if he places his OCs in such a tight box that they’re afraid to do anything? When was the last time he had a great offense? I’m guessing the McNair/George era was pretty good for him but I can’t remember if they were top 10. But after that…what has he had on that side of the ball? I’d have to spend longer chasing stats then I feel like right now. But let’s say that his philosophy has nothing to do with it. What about coaching? The line coach? Boudreau? Yes–there are injuries–everyone has them. But this line is an epic fail. Certainly you can expect a dropoff with injuries but this is horrible–and it wasn’t great to begin with. And if it’s the injuries/youth excuse well–than there are questions about player selection–how it was built. It can’t be bad luck every year. It can’t be injuries every year. All teams go through that. I’m beyond that excuse. What is this team doing so wrong?

If you get beyond the broad strokes of injuries, youth, poor QB play—what are the fundamental issues? And who takes responsibility for that? It’s okay for an offense to be average. This offense is so far below average it couldn’t see it with a telescope.

It’s clear that mistakes were made in different areas and are still being made–but I have no confidence–even after another draft and free agency–that Fisher is the guy to fix it. He may be the most overrated coach in the history of the NFL. Who–with his track record–has coached this long?

But I get that he will be back next year–and I give him full credit for building a great defense. But we can’t have half a coach.

Well most of the arguments made for keeping Fisher remind me of this:

🙂

Agamemnon wrote:

I am not a big fan of Fisher or Williams or Bernie. But most of the reasons for firing Fisher remind me of of Bogus Burn the Witch stuff.

I kinda share that view.

I think people get there’s different views on this one.

I doubt anyone would find that offensive, IMO.

The Rams aren’t dead. They are resting. 😉

wv wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:

I am not a big fan of Fisher or Williams or Bernie. But most of the reasons for firing Fisher remind me of of Bogus Burn the Witch stuff.

Well you said “most” of the reasons are bogus — what are the reasons that
are not bogus?

w
v

Let’s start with, if you were Fisher’s lawyer, which arguments would you object too?

All of them, your Honor.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Agamemnon.

I don’t see that the team has quit on Fisher. The defense was on the field for 40 minutes. Kept within a TD of the lead for well over a half of the game. Missing Quinn is huge over these last few weeks but even that can’t excuse a miserably inept offense.

I blame Snisher for the lack of progress on the O line which mind fucked Foles into a liability and has now eliminated Gurley from positive yards on what seems most plays. Our WRs are a joke. I also blame Fisher for guys smiling when they get flagged, especially on offense.

Please someone explain why when a WR is at the LOS and a DB is right across from him, so close they can feel each others breath, your QB throws the ball to the WR behind the LOS? We see that so many times and it never amounts to anything good. Why do they continue to give up downs and yards like that? This is what went on in Spags tenure too. It is destined to fail with our WRs so why? Is the playbook written on the inside of a matchbook cover?

Fisher will finish this season.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by bnw.

Dak wrote:

Mistake after mistake after mistake.

I think that’s why I would be OK with moving on from Fisher. Let’s see if someone else can change the culture. I hate to do it again. I like continuity. Hell, I’d love for some continuity … but Fisher’s been here long enough to get a good idea of what he’s about. And, it’s always about inconsistency.

Penalties, penalties, penalties…. they had 100 yards in penalties AGAIN yesterday……….. Fisher’s team has NO discipline.

joemad wrote:

Dak wrote:

Mistake after mistake after mistake.

I think that’s why I would be OK with moving on from Fisher. Let’s see if someone else can change the culture. I hate to do it again. I like continuity. Hell, I’d love for some continuity … but Fisher’s been here long enough to get a good idea of what he’s about. And, it’s always about inconsistency.

Penalties, penalties, penalties…. they had 100 yards in penalties AGAIN yesterday……….. Fisher’s team has NO discipline.

Interestingly, in his press conference today, Fisher cited the pre-snap penalties on offense as a reason for the change in OC. Hmm. It’s as if this problem just started this year. Fisher added that there needed to be more accountability for mistakes on offense. Again, you could say that for the entire team, and for the offense going back years.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Dak.

from off the net

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-X-

Again, massive amounts of injuries has (again) destroyed what the youngest team in the league is capable of doing. When you go from youngest team to injury-depleted-youngest team and have to play even younger and/or more inexperienced backups, then you’re essentially freaked. The one constant in Fisher’s tenure here so far is that all of his QBs have been ineffective, injured, or had some kind of a fatal flaw that severely limited what the offense as a whole could do in the passing game.

I’ve studied the Titans’ teams he’s coached and I see similarities. He had a 13 year stretch once where he had only 3 non-winning records while going to the playoffs (and SB) 6 times. During that time though, two years in a row (2004, 2005), his record took a sharp decline and resulted in two of the three losing records. Because during those two years (tell me if this sounds familiar), there was a pretty significant cap problem with the Titans which led to the release of several players, in addition to having an unprecedented amount of injuries across the board – not the least of which caused him to use 3 different QBs during the season and 2 the following season. Once that got sorted out he got them back to .500 and then the playoffs two years in a row. Those aren’t the actions of a crappy coach.

Admittedly his brand of football is more reliant upon defense and special teams, and the margin for error is less than that of a team that can air it out with regularity, but that in and of itself doesn’t make him a bad coach or wrong for the job. All it means is that he can’t afford injuries to key players on a scale like we’ve been witnessing. And he ESPECIALLY can’t afford to have it at QB. It’s a fact that better QB play, or even a better QB, could have yielded him almost a dozen more wins over the course of his time here. I’ve seen QB play cost this team games for almost 4 years now and can safely assume (without being blind) that a Steve McNair type QB, or even an in-his-prime Kerry Collins could have gotten him a few winning seasons here.

I’m not prepared to blame him for betting on Bradford when he took the job here. All I can really blame him for is his hit-and-miss drafting and lack of foresight. That’s still not enough to say he’s wrong for the job. It just means he’s close to becoming crap out of luck.

It’s a sting that Fisher has felt before when with the Titans in 2004. Prior to that the Titans were in the playoffs 4 out of 5 years, but then his team got steamrolled with injuries and he ended up winning 5 games. In 2005, they had serious cap issues and they won 4. In 2006 he again stabilized the team and won 8 games. In 2007 and 2008 they were back in the playoffs.

I made this short video a few years ago to illustrate this point.

Some folks place more value on past performance. 2008 was a long time ago, more relevant for my view is 2009 through 2015 . The offense is historically bad.Injury has a lot to do with it but I think the philosophy of keeping it close and hoping someone can “make a play” and win it is fatally flawed in that it results in more injury opportunities on defense and even crappy offenses are always in it so luck plays a much bigger part in games with inferior opponents.

JackPMiller wrote:

and they are 10-2. There OLine and WR core has guys coming off the street, and they are playing well. Coach these guys up. The young team mantra needs to stop as well. Fisher has been here which will be 4 years, and all we got was sub-500 teams, in that span. Mediocrity is all we are getting. Change is a need.

Accounting for injuries is not an “excuse,” it represents an effort to find honest analytical explanations. Calling them an “excuse” is basically to say posters are rationalizing or in denial. And…we don’t want to go around saying that, it backfires. Anyway in terms of being tired of stuff, personally I am tired of hearing about the great exception to everything, the Patz, as if they set a norm. No they are an exception. In other threads I have detailed how the Patz problems on the OL got compensated for by Brady’s ability to play at a high level in a quick passing game. When he holds the ball longer than 2.1 seconds the offense does not do as well. So the only thing the Patz teach us is that everyone else should have drafted Brady.

(Besides, even with Brady, it’s no accident they lost twice when Gronkowski was out. Coincidence? I don’t think so.)

In terms of injuries, IF you have multiple simultaneous UNIT injuries, like to the OL, it has an effect. It just does, and that’s demonstrable throughout league history. For example, with the Rams, when both Johnson and Jenkins were out, it had an effect. How could it not have an effect. And who is 5 deep at corner (that is you have to replace 2 starting corners and a nickel since the previous nickel likely becomes a starting corner). The Rams defense is better when at least one of the 2, Jenkins or Johnson, starts. It’s only basic analytic thoroughness to account for something like that.

Same with the OL. Rams DID build effective OLs from 2012-14 and when they WEREN’T *multiply* injured they did well. IMO ignoring the multiple unit injuries is just not good analysis.

Besides, you don’t need to win the “injuries are excuses” debate—all you ever have to say is “I don’t care I don’t like Fisher as a head coach anyway.” I did that with Linehan. His OLs were injured at an unbelievable level in 2007 and 2008. And I just said I know, and they can’t play with that level of injuries, but I don’t care, I don’t like Linehan as a head coach anyway.

End of rant. Everyone back to work.

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