Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › This President has got to go
- This topic has 31 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 9 months ago by Billy_T.
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March 11, 2020 at 7:10 pm #112142waterfieldParticipant
With leaders from all over the world focusing on the safety of their citizens, in connection with the coronavirus, our “leader” is focusing solely on his own political survival. As a result we are way behind many 3rd world countries when it comes to this disease. If you truly believe that Sanders can best beat Trump then I respect that. If I thought that I would support him even though I am nowhere close to his ideology. And I would work my butt off for him as well. I simply don’t think that he is capable of beating Trump. If OTOH you, in your heart, believe Biden has a better chance of beating Trump but won’t support him because of your belief in Sanders ideology, then I cannot respect that because that is simply a “statement” vote. To me its the “my ball, my rules, my game” or else I’m going home view-and simply does not recognize what a horrific man Trump is and not just to this country but to each of us and our children and grandchildren.
March 11, 2020 at 7:49 pm #112144JackPMillerParticipantI agree. I’d vote for a pile of dog poop over Trump. I would be scared if Trump is re-elected. Not sure if we can survive another four years of Trump.
March 12, 2020 at 1:06 am #112159znModeratorI simply don’t think that he is capable of beating Trump. If OTOH you, in your heart, believe Biden has a better chance of beating Trump but won’t support him because of your belief in Sanders ideology, then I cannot respect that because that is simply a “statement” vote.
I do believe Sanders would beat Trump and all the polls back it.
For a thousand reasons, I don’t think Biden has ANY chance of beating Trump.
Don’t want to speak for anyone, but, the sense I get from reading this board is that no one here believes Biden has even the slightest chance. I mean outside of you and maybe another.
I could go further. Leaving me and you out of it, I don’t think anyoneelse here (based on my sense of things just from reading) even believes Biden is a worthy candidate. That’s based on his character and his policies.
I am not arguing about that–not in this post anyway–just stating how myself and (I think) others see him. I get the impression that he is seen this way: Biden is identified with far too many simply bad policies, and as a person he does not have the mindset, abilities, or character to be a credible leader.
So you don’t have to worry about people here making an “ideological choice” against a guy they otherwise know to be a solid candidate. Far from it. That is not what’s happening.
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March 12, 2020 at 8:04 am #112162wvParticipantSo you don’t have to worry about people here making an “ideological choice” against a guy they otherwise know to be a solid candidate. Far from it. That is not what’s happening.
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I think Biden can beat Trump. It would be very close. Biden has the backing of the National-Security-State and all the usual Banks and Corporations and various parts of the Corporate-Capitalist Death-Machine. Absolutely, he can win. He just needs a few more votes than his counterpart, Hillary. And he should get them, if more Blacks turn out this time.
His Mental Deterioration will not bother Older voters, i dont think. Heck they might find it endearing, the way voters found Bush’s stupidity endearing.
If he does lose, it will be because Progressives just couldnt vote for another mass-murderer. 🙂 Will Progressives vote for him in numbers? He’s already giving lip-service to progressives and bernie etc. Biden’s people know who they need. I ‘think’ enough progressives will vote for him that he will win. (I wont be voting for a mass-murderer myself, but blah blah blah)
So, yeah Biden will beat Trump, I think.
I also think Bernie could beat Trump. But Biden will be the nominee now as we all know.
Centrists can label a vote a “statement” vote whatever that means, but thats just the centrist-mindset at work. I vote my conscience. I wont vote for a mass-murderer. Biden was part of Obama’s Drone-murder scheme, etc. Either murder matters or it doesnt.
w
vMarch 12, 2020 at 10:08 am #112163ZooeyModeratorI dunno. I dunno anything anymore.
Biden was absolutely dead in the water. We all saw it. Then the Democrat Party – proving for the first time in decades – that it actually DOES know how to fight for something it believes in – rallied everybody together in the party and the media behind Joe Biden, and push-started his car. The strategy now is to have him sit down and shut up while the media runs his campaign for him, and it worked again on Tuesday.
The market is crashing like Jericho right now.
Who the hell knows what’s gonna happen.
I agree with what zn said about Biden. To me he is Hillary with half the wits.
I’ve already said 3 times that my vote is irrelevant in California, so I don’t have a decision of conscience to make. But I will say that out there on the internet, I am seeing a lot of progressives say they won’t rally behind Biden this time. Statistically, they turned out for Hillary in 2016, and they got blamed for the loss anyway, and that has created resentment. And I am seeing a LOT of them saying they won’t do it this time. Now…what people say in March, a long distance away from the actual election, may very well reflect their feelings more than anything else, and not be a rock solid attitude, but I think Waterfield is right to be worried about a tepid turnout from progressives. Maybe it will be balanced out by a higher turnout from blacks who didn’t vote in 2016, but I haven’t seen any analysis on that.
In short, Biden is a weak candidate, and with 4 years of Trump, it is a serious clusterfuck on the DNC’s part that Joe Biden is the guy to be the champion of the party. He is a symptom of the rot in the Democrat party.
Bernie Sanders is a rare man in politics, and he is the kind of politician literally everybody says they ideally want: honest and dependable. The fact that this man – who has spent his entire life fighting on behalf of poor and marginalized people – has been smeared for 4 years by the Democrat establishment as a sexist threat to democracy, tells you everything you need to know about how much the Democrat party actually cares about ordinary people.
March 12, 2020 at 11:16 am #112164joemadParticipantWith leaders from all over the world focusing on the safety of their citizens, in connection with the coronavirus, our “leader” is focusing solely on his own political survival.
Just curious, do you think the timely drop outs from Mayor Pete, Amy K, Money Bags Bloomberg, were for political survival or for the safety of citizens?
1) Change Management 101: Most people will not change their behavioral patterns unless they experience PAIN…..
Perhaps another 4 years of Trump is the pain that this country needs to finally change behaviors to be better informed of the actual issues and vote for candidates that actually support their beliefs, needs, and wants instead of propping up status quo losers like Dukakis, Mondale, HRC, etc….
2 or 3 more Kavanaugh clones in the SCOTUS is going to be very painful, but that might be what it takes to get people to finally wake up.
Most people want health care
Most people agree in a women’s right to choose
Most people are OK with reduction in military spending.
Most people are OK with corporations paying their fair share of taxes…Vote for candidates that support your beliefs.
Right now, there’s 8 minutes left in the game, KC is losing to SF and has a 98% chance of losing the Super Bowl. Bernie ain’t Mahomes, but Biden is pretty far from being coach Shanahan. Bernie has better odds of beating Biden than KC did in beating SF this late in the game.
Let the debates play out and let’s finish the game. Vote for the best candidate.
If Biden wins and Bernie runs as a 3rd candidate to compete, vote for the candidate that best supports your beliefs, your needs and what is best for your country.
March 12, 2020 at 11:21 am #112165Billy_TParticipantWorst possible president at potentially the worst possible time.
Merkel recently told Germans that 70% of their country could catch the virus. Its lethality rate hasn’t been determined yet, but the usual estimates are somewhere between 1-4% of those who contract it. If just a quarter of Americans catch it, we could be looking at well over a million fatalities here.
Trump has lied about all of this from Day One, seeing it as a crisis for himself, his reelection, Wall Street and Corporate America, not as a public health crisis. He isn’t even trying to hide this, except in his scripted speeches, and even in those, he keeps lying about the science.
At this point, I almost don’t care who the Dem nominee is. They could run a ham sandwich and the nation would be better off, if the ham sandwich beats Trump. We won’t be proactively better off, of course. It’s a matter of “less damage.” But I prefer that to more damage.
Regardless, this is really one of those proverbial “chickens coming home to roost” moments. The deadly combo of capitalism and right-wing ideology, weaponized by both major parties, has left us largely without the tools we need to cope with this. Centuries of gaslighting about its supposed wonders, while it’s worked to destroy our capacity to act collectively to solve the crises it (capitalism and wingnuttery) creates.
We’re hollowed out. We’re gutted. Our Commons is in tatters. But our ethos remains “I got mine, go fuck yourself!!”
At a moment when we need to do a 180° on that ethos, etc. etc.
March 12, 2020 at 11:32 am #112166Billy_TParticipantWell, I gotta tweak that last part.
I don’t think that’s the ethos of MOST Americans. Most of us are fine with sharing stuff and we don’t want to be Napoleon or Caesar. It’s just the underlying message sent down to us from Above, cuz that’s basically the only way to keep the capitalist ball rolling, or avoid mass unrest. It’s a kinda philosophical cover for the essentially sociopathic nature of economic conquest, which is really about the only thing “America” can claim for itself. Our “exceptionalism” stems from that, more than anything else.
That so many Americans buy into being used and abused by the ruling class, and seem okay with sociopaths . . . electing them more often than not . . .
I may be wrong, but I’d bet we’re “exceptional” in celebrating and romanticizing the people who oppress us to this degree, and we don’t want to even think how different they are from we the people.
We’re in for a very bumpy ride, folks. Perhaps us old fogies, especially, in an immediate sense.
March 12, 2020 at 3:17 pm #112175waterfieldParticipantI do believe Sanders would beat Trump and all the polls back it.
For a thousand reasons, I don’t think Biden has ANY chance of beating Trump.
My only response to that is in the last primaries, including Super Tuesday, and most recently, last week, including the state that gave Trump the Presidency-Michigan-the voters overwhelmingly disagreed with you and apparently the polls you referenced. Why?
- This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by waterfield.
March 12, 2020 at 3:32 pm #112178waterfieldParticipantI do believe Sanders would beat Trump and all the polls back it.
For a thousand reasons, I don’t think Biden has ANY chance of beating Trump.
My only response to that is in the last primaries, including Super Tuesday, and most recently, last week, including the state that gave Trump the Presidency-Michigan-the voters overwhelmingly disagreed with you and apparently the polls you referenced. Why?
And why-if you are so SURE Sanders would be the one who could beat Trump- would Yang, Bloomberg, Amy, Pete, Tim, all endorse Biden? And why would Warren not endorse Sanders ?
- This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by waterfield.
March 12, 2020 at 4:56 pm #112184wvParticipantI dunno. I dunno anything anymore.
…..Bernie Sanders is a rare man in politics, and he is the kind of politician literally everybody says they ideally want: honest and dependable. The fact that this man – who has spent his entire life fighting on behalf of poor and marginalized people – has been smeared for 4 years by the Democrat establishment as a sexist threat to democracy, tells you everything you need to know about how much the Democrat party actually cares about ordinary people.
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You really think Biden is a lesser candidate than Hillary? I dont agree on that. From what I’ve heard (on Fox news 🙂 ) Hillary’s ‘negatives’ are WAY higher than Bidens. Biden is just this ‘bland’ drab, boring, typical Dem. Like John Kerry, Al Gore, Dukakis.
BUT, he worked with/for OBAMA. And he doesnt have the big negatives Hillary had.
Centrists, conservative-professional-moderate-Reps, and Dems are not gonna care that he’s senile. They dont care. They just want the National-Security-Ship-Of-State to run smoothly. A senile President can do that just fine. (Think Radar and Colonel Blake)It all comes down to Progressives. If they hold their noses and vote for that lowlife CIA-loving, pro-corporate, imperialist, murderous, shitbag – Joe Biden will be the next President.
And btw, I jus wanna make it clear that i TOTALLY respect the view that progressives should or will vote for the lesser evil, and thus vote for the murderous imperialist Joe Biden. Its a perfectly reasonable decision. Chomsky has talked endlessly about it over the years. I’ve done it myself in the past.
For me personally, though, there came a time i just decided i wont do it anymore.
Its got nothing to do with WV being a Red-State or any other ‘calculation’ like that. Its hard to explain. Its a conscience thing. Coupled with a recognition of what the system is. Frankly I may not even vote at all the rest of my life. I havent decided on that. I lean toward voting Green, but i may not vote anymore.
…my vote has moved to Thailand, perhaps 🙂PS — this virus could put the nation in a bad mood. Not good for Trump.
w
vMarch 12, 2020 at 6:34 pm #112187waterfieldParticipantI dunno. I dunno anything anymore.
…..Bernie Sanders is a rare man in politics, and he is the kind of politician literally everybody says they ideally want: honest and dependable. The fact that this man – who has spent his entire life fighting on behalf of poor and marginalized people – has been smeared for 4 years by the Democrat establishment as a sexist threat to democracy, tells you everything you need to know about how much the Democrat party actually cares about ordinary people.
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You really think Biden is a lesser candidate than Hillary? I dont agree on that. From what I’ve heard (on Fox news 🙂 ) Hillary’s ‘negatives’ are WAY higher than Bidens. Biden is just this ‘bland’ drab, boring, typical Dem. Like John Kerry, Al Gore, Dukakis.
BUT, he worked with/for OBAMA. And he doesnt have the big negatives Hillary had.
Centrists, conservative-professional-moderate-Reps, and Dems are not gonna care that he’s senile. They dont care. They just want the National-Security-Ship-Of-State to run smoothly. A senile President can do that just fine. (Think Radar and Colonel Blake)It all comes down to Progressives. If they hold their noses and vote for that lowlife CIA-loving, pro-corporate, imperialist, murderous, shitbag – Joe Biden will be the next President.
And btw, I jus wanna make it clear that i TOTALLY respect the view that progressives should or will vote for the lesser evil, and thus vote for the murderous imperialist Joe Biden. Its a perfectly reasonable decision. Chomsky has talked endlessly about it over the years. I’ve done it myself in the past.
For me personally, though, there came a time i just decided i wont do it anymore.
Its got nothing to do with WV being a Red-State or any other ‘calculation’ like that. Its hard to explain. Its a conscience thing. Coupled with a recognition of what the system is. Frankly I may not even vote at all the rest of my life. I havent decided on that. I lean toward voting Green, but i may not vote anymore.
…my vote has moved to Thailand, perhaps 🙂PS — this virus could put the nation in a bad mood. Not good for Trump.
w
vYou know WV-I consider you an internet friend. You may not feel the same. I can’t help that. In any event you just called Joe Biden a “murderous imperialist”. You also called him a “shitbag”.In another post above you called him a “mass murderer”. That type of vitriol is precisely why many cannot take seriously the supporters of Sanders and are in fact put off by it. It certainly does not do anything for the advancement of the ideas expressed by Sanders. What’s also concerning is that over the years your attacks have almost always been against democrats. I have not read a negative word from you about Trump-the worst President in the hx of this nation. Every post of yours contains the word “corporatocracy” but not one word about Trump who is doing insurmountable damage to our judicial system-an arena we both work in. Nothing about how he is dismantling medicaid -a health safety net for the poor. Nothing about his desire to get rid of medicare. Nothing about his racist and mysogynistic views. Simply put, nothing about the man who has disdain for the less fortunate. Corporations will always be here but the evils of corporatocracy will only enlarge with this man should he have another 4 years of executive decisions. Anyway, I wish your arrows could sometimes be pointed in another direction.
March 12, 2020 at 7:08 pm #112191wvParticipant<
You know WV-I consider you an internet friend. You may not feel the same. I can’t help that. In any event you just called Joe Biden a “murderous imperialist”. You also called him a “shitbag”.In another post above you called him a “mass murderer”. That type of vitriol is precisely why many cannot take seriously the supporters of Sanders and are in fact put off by it. It certainly does not do anything for the advancement of the ideas expressed by Sanders. What’s also concerning is that over the years your attacks have almost always been against democrats. I have not read a negative word from you about Trump-the worst President in the hx of this nation. Every post of yours contains the word “corporatocracy” but not one word about Trump who is doing insurmountable damage to our judicial system-an arena we both work in. Nothing about how he is dismantling medicaid -a health safety net for the poor. Nothing about his desire to get rid of medicare. Nothing about his racist and mysogynistic views. Simply put, nothing about the man who has disdain for the less fortunate. Corporations will always be here but the evils of corporatocracy will only enlarge with this man should he have another 4 years of executive decisions. Anyway, I wish your arrows could sometimes be pointed in another direction.
================Good post. Glad to hear you think of me as an internet-friend. Good to know.
As for me, i think of you as an internet-friend too.
But of course you are a friend with FUNDAMENTAL political differences.
So, it makes it hard when we talk politix. People all over the country are challenged by friend or family ‘civil wars’ over politics these days.
We cant always agree. Ah well.As for me not slamming Trump. BillyT has mentioned that too. I dunno what to tell ya — I feel like i slam Trump and the Reps plenty. I have said I agree with Chomsky — “The Republican Party is an existential threat to all life on the planet.” Thats what Chomsky said. I agree with it. I’ve said that.
Its just a ‘given’ to me. Its like saying the Bengals are dysfunctional. Just a given.Our ‘fundamental difference’ is NOT on the murderous, biosphere-killing, anti-science, anti-poor, racist, sexist, greedy, hypocritical, lying, willfully-ignorant, SHIT-BAG-Republithugs.
Our differences are on the Democrats. We agree on the Rep-Thugs.
Fwiw, and i KNOW you dont agree with this — but this is WHY i use the term ‘murderer’ to describe Biden. And Clinton. And Obama. I mean the word, literally.
Lets say, the FBI or CIA showed up in a police captain’s office in your town, and said, “We have solid information, that a terrorist/murderer is living/meeting in the house next to Waterfield’s house. And lets say, the Captain of the police looked at the ‘evidence’ and without a trial, simply ‘decided’ to send a police drone-bomb into the house next to yours. Now the captain did indeed ‘try to avoid civilian casualties’ by sending the drone bomb in at night, on a Sunday, etc.
But the bomb took out many rooms in the building in question plus part of your house. ‘Innocent’ lives were torn apart. Body parts everywhere. The captain didnt really keep track or report to the press how many people were killed. “Collateral damage” was kept to a ‘minimum’ is what the captain reported to the Press. And the Press really wasnt interested in who was killed or how many. Only that a “murderer” was “eliminated” in this Just and Holy American “War On Murderers.”Now. Would that be ok with you? If American Police acted that way?
No, it would not. You’d call it murder, yes?But Biden/Obama did that regularly. ONLY difference is, the murdered people were not Americans living in America. They were human beings living in other countries. Mainly brown people, living in the middle east.
So…that…makes it…not murder? Why?I agree with Chomsky. Every modern president has been a mass murderer. Doesnt have to be that way. It…doesnt.
I know you see it totally differently.wv
PS — Jimmy Dore suggests on youtube that Progressives/Bernie should extract some sort of deal from Biden in return for supporting him. Unlike last time when progressives just gave their support over to Hillary. I dunno why in the world progressives would trust Biden, but I do wonder if Bernie will try and work out some sort of agreement with Biden.March 12, 2020 at 9:11 pm #112182Billy_TParticipantI do believe Sanders would beat Trump and all the polls back it.
For a thousand reasons, I don’t think Biden has ANY chance of beating Trump.
My only response to that is in the last primaries, including Super Tuesday, and most recently, last week, including the state that gave Trump the Presidency-Michigan-the voters overwhelmingly disagreed with you and apparently the polls you referenced. Why?
And why-if you are so SURE Sanders would be the one who could beat Trump- would Yang, Bloomberg, Amy, Pete, Tim, all endorse Biden? And why would Warren not endorse Sanders ?
Obviously, I can’t speak for ZN. But I can answer that one easily, from my own POV:
The Dems see Sanders as a bigger threat to their own status/status quo than Trump and the GOP. They’d rather Trump and the GOP win than Sanders or any leftist. And this is what happens when two governing parties are owned by the super rich, run by and for the super rich, and owe their allegiance, not to us, but to the super rich.
And the really sad part about this? Sanders is proposing FDR-like programs. Nothing “radical.” In fact, from my POV, he’s waaaay shy of going anywhere close to far enough. As in, we don’t need Denmark on the Potomac to fix what ails this world — though it would be a huge improvement over our current situation. We need a wholesale, uber-radical shift away from the obscene immorality of capitalism and its entire rationale for being . . . We need to end the very idea of an economy based on private profit for the few. We need to shift, instead, to fully sustainable and citizen-centric model that meets our needs, leaves no one behind, and has no profit incentive whatsoever. Cuz that motive set free is what’s killing the earth and has always been the major cause of wars.
No more exchange-value. It needs to be use-value instead. Extend democracy to include the economy, democratize the workplace, and we the people, not “the state,” not political parties, not any private power, own the means of production, with equal say and equal shares.
To me, that’s our only hope of surviving as a species into the 22nd century.
March 12, 2020 at 9:19 pm #112195ZooeyModerator=======================
You really think Biden is a lesser candidate than Hillary? I dont agree on that. From what I’ve heard (on Fox news Hillary’s ‘negatives’ are WAY higher than Bidens. Biden is just this ‘bland’ drab, boring, typical Dem. Like John Kerry, Al Gore, Dukakis.
BUT, he worked with/for OBAMA. And he doesnt have the big negatives Hillary had.
Centrists, conservative-professional-moderate-Reps, and Dems are not gonna care that he’s senile. They dont care. They just want the National-Security-Ship-Of-State to run smoothly. A senile President can do that just fine. (Think Radar and Colonel Blake)It all comes down to Progressives. If they hold their noses and vote for that lowlife CIA-loving, pro-corporate, imperialist, murderous, shitbag – Joe Biden will be the next President.
And btw, I jus wanna make it clear that i TOTALLY respect the view that progressives should or will vote for the lesser evil, and thus vote for the murderous imperialist Joe Biden. Its a perfectly reasonable decision. Chomsky has talked endlessly about it over the years. I’ve done it myself in the past.
For me personally, though, there came a time i just decided i wont do it anymore.
Its got nothing to do with WV being a Red-State or any other ‘calculation’ like that. Its hard to explain. Its a conscience thing. Coupled with a recognition of what the system is. Frankly I may not even vote at all the rest of my life. I havent decided on that. I lean toward voting Green, but i may not vote anymore.
…my vote has moved to Thailand, perhapsPS — this virus could put the nation in a bad mood. Not good for Trump.
w
vI don’t know for sure what you mean by “lesser candidate.”
Hillary had historically high negatives, much higher than Biden. But Hillary has more “gravitas” than Biden. She projects greater command.
Biden is vulnerable because he appears “empty,” and trips on his on thoughts.
But I wouldn’t call him “senile.” I think that is way over-stating his mental health. Biden has brain farts. But he is mentally sound otherwise. Mentally, he is superior to Trump. He is FAR more likely to make decisions rationally than Trump is. However, I think Trump will is a greater showman than Biden by several miles. Trump will be able, imo, to make Biden look foolish. He couldn’t do that with Hillary. He could make her symbolize corruption, and the Establishment, but he couldn’t make her look foolish. I think Trump WILL make Biden look foolish.
I don’t think Biden IS foolish.
I think he will LOOK foolish.
Final note: If you EVER dispute me in public again, I will be forced to respond in a congenial way. I’m warning you.
March 12, 2020 at 9:47 pm #112202znModeratorAnd why-if you are so SURE Sanders would be the one who could beat Trump- would Yang, Bloomberg, Amy, Pete, Tim, all endorse Biden? And why would Warren not endorse Sanders ?
Obviously, I can’t speak for ZN. But I can answer that one easily, from my own POV:
The Dems see Sanders as a bigger threat to their own status/status quo than Trump and the GOP.
BT is just exactly right. And btw the source of believing Sanders would beat Trump is not my personal beliefs. It’s basically every single poll about which Dem would beat Trump. That’s not me talking. That’s every single poll I’ve seen.
Anyway why would those wishy-washy right-centrist pro-corporate Dems you name back another one of their own? Cause he’s another one of their own.
Just consult your own feelings about Sanders. You apparently see him as this crazy radical. So do they.
Meanwhile no one who backs Sanders–and it’s an amazingly large number–thinks he is radical. That’s just ordinary everyday FDR New Deal style social democracy of a kind that works everywhere it’s used.
But the corporate world that owns the Dems part naturally sees him as a threat. Of course they do. He would cut back a lot of their power.
Here’s an example of how this works. Do you know the profiles of the superdelegates that basically would determine the candidate in a brokered election? A high proportion of them are professional paid lobbyists who work for big oil, private insusurance, and so on.
Naturally THEY see Sanders as radical cause he threatens the basis of their power.
And so do those sub-candidates you listed for me. They too see Sanders as a threat to the lobbyist-dominated Dem party. It’s who and what they are.
….
March 12, 2020 at 10:00 pm #112203Billy_TParticipantWV,
On the criticism of the criticism thingy, and about those givens:
For me, it’s a given that in the grand scheme of things, it’s not all that important which team gets the brunt of that rage you speak of. Blue or red. Doesn’t much matter, given their histories. Though, in general, I think it makes more sense to go after both, not just one or the other. And timing matters. Context matters.
I’d have a much easier time with the critiques in question, if the objects of said critiques were in power, held the White House, Congress, the Courts, etc. If it was their time in the barrel, as we used to say in Tech Support. If public figures want to direct their rage at just one team, it makes a hell of a lot more sense (to me) if it’s the team calling the shots. Again, I’d rather see both teams included, at least. Better still, zoom out and critique the economic system itself, the insane rationale for that system, its obscene effects, etc.
But if it’s gotta be just one, it should be the one with the keys and the hands on the wheel, to mix too many metaphors for one post.
March 12, 2020 at 10:06 pm #112204Billy_TParticipantZN,
Thanks for rescuing my post from Purgatory.
;>)
Hope everyone is healthy and safe.
Wash your hands, people!!
March 12, 2020 at 11:11 pm #112214znModeratorZN,
Thanks for rescuing my post from Purgatory.
;>)
Hope everyone is healthy and safe.
Wash your hands, people!!
Sry sometimes I can’t get to the board as soon as I would like.
Keep postin tho, I’ll keep things moving from my end.
March 13, 2020 at 3:01 pm #112222ZooeyModeratorHere is the Krystal Ball bit in full that expresses the attitude of the Left these days, what I was talking about up above. (wv’s Jimmy Dore video makes the same point, but in a meandering, 20 minute version). The Left came out and voted for Hillary in 2016, and got scapegoated for her loss as a reward. The Left is not in the mood for that anymore. As Krystal Ball notes, if Biden loses, we are going to get blamed anyway, just like last time. And every time we support another loser like Gore, Kerry, Hillary, Biden…what do we get for our vote, exactly? What do we get?
We get…”Hey, the other guy is worse.”
That’s what we get. That is the SOLE extent of the entire reward package the Democrats lavish on us.
People are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time.
I’m sorry. As Ball says, if you think we always have to pick a “safe” candidate who will appeal to moderates…go right ahead. Just look how well that has worked out for you in the past. Democrats are CHOOSING to play to the “middle” (whatever THAT is supposed to even mean) because they think that is the Smart Play.
It’s not. It’s NOT the smart play if you want to win. Look at how many times your Safe Play has lost. Tell me why you think that’s a good strategy, playing it towards the middle. Obama broke through because he spoke the language of progressive (though nobody on this board was fooled for even a second because we were sharing the opensecrets information on where his financing was coming from), and he got black voters to turn out. That was what put him over – voter turnout.
And – clearly – the vigorous voter turnout is on Sanders’ side. ALL the polls show him beating Trump by a wider margin than any other candidate, and the Democrats rally everybody to support Biden, and get the compliant liberal media to echo the talking point – “Biden is the more electable.” We know that isn’t true. It’s false. Polls tell us it is false. But we’ve been told for so long, so many times that we have to put up someone from the conservative wing of the party if we want to win. Consequence: Loss after Loss after Loss.
This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.
This also contains the critique of Sanders from the Left. Like I said elsewhere, I think he is the wrong messenger for the right message, and looks like my fiance agrees with me.
March 13, 2020 at 5:26 pm #112228Billy_TParticipantReally good segment from your fiance, Zooey.
I concur with all of it.
Posted on a forum earlier today about Sanders, defended him, his agenda, his supporters, etc. The Biden folks were out in force, attacking Bernie and his supporters. It’s amazing how tone deaf they are, and lacking in self-awareness. While throwing out endless strawmen and zombie memes like “Bernie Bros,” they were generally the rude and obnoxious ones, not his supporters . . . and if I can borrow one of their terms, “meanies.”
And, yeah, they’re gonna blame “the left” if Biden loses. They still blame “the left” for HRC. Hell, more than a few played the Zombie Nadar card.
They strike me, in the aggregate, as impervious to reason. No amount of evidence that they’re wrong about stuff sinks in. They have that in common with all too many “conservatives.”
Oh, well.
March 13, 2020 at 5:33 pm #112229wvParticipantPeople are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time….
….
….This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.==================
Well, ok, but we (leftists) have been down this road over and over and over. None of this is new, as you know.
So, what…exactly…should…leftist VOTERS do with their VOTES. (I am not asking about what they should be doing with the other 364 days of the year…)
I am basically asking, why shouldnt all the leftists get together and say “fuck the democrats” lets vote for the Green Party. And keep voting Green UNTIL the Dems give us SOMETHING. Some crumbs. Some Policies. SOMETHING.
I know it would mean Reps would be elected. I get that. But it would also mean, eventually the Dems would HAVE to come to the table with SOMETHING.
Unlike now.The argument I always here is (as you know) Trump is just TOO Awful to consider, blah blah blah.
Problem with that is i heard the same thing about Bush. Its always the same argument.
How long do leftists play a LOSING game? Same Old Sorry ASS Lesser-Evil Game.
I think its worth playing — ONLY IF — the left actually gets SOMETHING> Thats how coalitions work in Europe.
w
vMarch 13, 2020 at 7:19 pm #112232ZooeyModeratorMarch 13, 2020 at 7:49 pm #112233MackeyserModeratorWorst possible president at potentially the worst possible time.
Merkel recently told Germans that 70% of their country could catch the virus. Its lethality rate hasn’t been determined yet, but the usual estimates are somewhere between 1-4% of those who contract it. If just a quarter of Americans catch it, we could be looking at well over a million fatalities here.
Trump has lied about all of this from Day One, seeing it as a crisis for himself, his reelection, Wall Street and Corporate America, not as a public health crisis. He isn’t even trying to hide this, except in his scripted speeches, and even in those, he keeps lying about the science.
At this point, I almost don’t care who the Dem nominee is. They could run a ham sandwich and the nation would be better off, if the ham sandwich beats Trump. We won’t be proactively better off, of course. It’s a matter of “less damage.” But I prefer that to more damage.
Regardless, this is really one of those proverbial “chickens coming home to roost” moments. The deadly combo of capitalism and right-wing ideology, weaponized by both major parties, has left us largely without the tools we need to cope with this. Centuries of gaslighting about its supposed wonders, while it’s worked to destroy our capacity to act collectively to solve the crises it (capitalism and wingnuttery) creates.
We’re hollowed out. We’re gutted. Our Commons is in tatters. But our ethos remains “I got mine, go fuck yourself!!”
At a moment when we need to do a 180° on that ethos, etc. etc.
Italy 2.6%
China 3.5%
Iran 10.6%USA is currently at 2.7% We’ve only conducted 7000 tests TOTAL in the entire US thus far.
We have ZERO handle on this, Drs are SCREAMING about symptomatic patients not being able to get tested and NO ONE knowing what to do if they clearly have COVID.
It is entirely possible using the 70% threshold and just Iran’s numbers (ours could be substantially worse considering the federal and state responses), we’re looking at potentially 24.4M DEAD.
In order for us to remain at 2.7%, we’d need to RADICALLY shift the entire healthcare system to addressing this as they did in Italy and China.
But we won’t. Which is why so many are gonna die.
If you look at what this looks like for countries that are ahead of us in this by a few weeks, it’s literally the stuff of nightmares.
That’s it. Nightmares.
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
March 13, 2020 at 7:54 pm #112234MackeyserModeratorI do believe Sanders would beat Trump and all the polls back it.
For a thousand reasons, I don’t think Biden has ANY chance of beating Trump.
My only response to that is in the last primaries, including Super Tuesday, and most recently, last week, including the state that gave Trump the Presidency-Michigan-the voters overwhelmingly disagreed with you and apparently the polls you referenced. Why?
Operation Chaos
These are the votes in Michigan based on votes for a party, not party affiliation
2016
Dems 1.3M
Reps 1.2M2020
Dems 2.3M
Reps 680KThis is why Biden won every county in Michigan. It’s also why Biden roflstomped in South Carolina.
Reps KNOW how weak Biden is, they KNOW about the #NeverBiden movement and are capitalizing on it.
And it’s working in open primary states. This is the first time this kind of open sabotage has been engaged in massively and it’s been successful. Both dems and reps have mentioned it, but there’s no forensic or exit polling proof before these primaries that it every affected the outcomes.
It’s absolutely not an indication that Dems overwhelmingly are picking Biden. The data doesn’t support such a conclusion.
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
March 13, 2020 at 7:59 pm #112235MackeyserModeratorPeople are pissed now. And I think you absolutely WILL see a decrease in Leftist turnout for Biden this time….
….
….This is because the DNC would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders. THEY are to blame for this. The media will blame the Left. And THIS time they will at least most likely have evidence that supports that. And when the DNC actually BELIEVES that the Left cost them the election, maybe THEN it will start to do something about it.==================
Well, ok, but we (leftists) have been down this road over and over and over. None of this is new, as you know.
So, what…exactly…should…leftist VOTERS do with their VOTES. (I am not asking about what they should be doing with the other 364 days of the year…)
I am basically asking, why shouldnt all the leftists get together and say “fuck the democrats” lets vote for the Green Party. And keep voting Green UNTIL the Dems give us SOMETHING. Some crumbs. Some Policies. SOMETHING.
I know it would mean Reps would be elected. I get that. But it would also mean, eventually the Dems would HAVE to come to the table with SOMETHING.
Unlike now.The argument I always here is (as you know) Trump is just TOO Awful to consider, blah blah blah.
Problem with that is i heard the same thing about Bush. Its always the same argument.
How long do leftists play a LOSING game? Same Old Sorry ASS Lesser-Evil Game.
I think its worth playing — ONLY IF — the left actually gets SOMETHING> Thats how coalitions work in Europe.
w
vForming an actual progressive if not fully left third party. Not sure if it should be the Progressive Party, the People’s Party or something else. It’s worth the effort because the Dems will NEVER give an inch to the left or even move back just to the center. They’re a center right corporate neolib neocon party and as long as they have corporate backers so that they don’t have to answer to the people, they won’t.
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
March 13, 2020 at 8:22 pm #112238wvParticipantForming an actual progressive if not fully left third party. Not sure if it should be the Progressive Party, the People’s Party or something else. It’s worth the effort because the Dems will NEVER give an inch to the left or even move back just to the center. They’re a center right corporate neolib neocon party and as long as they have corporate backers so that they don’t have to answer to the people, they won’t.
====================
Thanks for posting, Mack. I know the site is super-slow, etc, but itz all we got 🙂
At any rate, we already got a progressive party. The one Jill Stein and Ralph Nader ran on — Green Party.
Now, what would happen if, instead of getting the usual 2 percent of the vote, the Green Party was able to command 7 or 8 percent. Or somethin like that. It wouldnt take that many Dem-Progressives to do that.
That would mean the Progressives would have some clout. The Dems would HAVE to make deals if they wanted to win these close elections with the Thugs.
Now maybe its not the time for that. Maybe voting for the Imperalist-mass-murderer-Biden, and thus beating the Biosphere-murderer-Trump is more important this time around. I dont know. But I for one, would LOVE to see Prog-Dems start a dialogue WITH the Green Party and at the very least THREATEN to join. Start a movement. Make the switch. Get millions to switch. Whats the fucking down side to that? None. The greens could always still do the lesser evil thing in the general election if they wanted to.
I could go on 🙂
Btw, most of us around here are fucking OLD. Some of us might not make it thru this Pandemic. Let us be grateful for the time we have spent ranting about injustice, together 🙂 Carry on, All.
w
vMarch 13, 2020 at 10:45 pm #112261Billy_TParticipantHope all is well, Mac.
. . . .
I think the future for leftists may well be the DSA, if they can grow, get stronger and run candidates under their own banner. For me, unless I misread the Greens, the DSA comes closer to my views, cuz they want an end to capitalism and the Greens really don’t. Again, I could be wrong, but the Greens strike me as mend it don’t end it progressives, with strong antiwar and save the planet views. The latter two aspects are golden. I stand with them 100% on both. But I also want to replace economic apartheid with economic democracy.
Not sure if that’s the Greens’ agenda.
I bumped into this article today, which I think Zooey may have posted here before. It was a part of a review of a book by Malcolm Harris that I definitely want to read. If I post both links, however, I’ll probably go into Purgatory, so I’ll just do the Nathan Robinson one. The Harris book was reviewed in the New Republic, which surprises me every now and then.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-difference-between-liberalism-and-leftism
Excerpt:
The core divergence in these worldviews is in their beliefs about the nature of contemporary political and economic institutions. The difference here is not “how quickly these institutions should change,” but whether changes to them should be fundamental structural changes or not. The leftist sees capitalism as a horror, and believes that so long as money and profit rule the earth, human beings will be made miserable and will destroy themselves. The liberal does not actually believe this. Rather, the liberal believes that while there are problems with capitalism, it can be salvaged if given a few tweaks here and there. As Nancy Pelosi said of the present Democratic party: “We’re capitalist.” When Bernie Sanders is asked if he is a capitalist, he answers flatly: “No.” Sanders is a socialist, and socialism is not capitalism, and there is no possibility of healing the ideological rift between the two. Liberals believe that the economic and political system is a machine that has broken down and needs fixing. Leftists believe that the machine is not “broken.” Rather, it is working perfectly well; the problem is that it is a death machine designed to chew up human lives. You don’t fix the death machine, you smash it to bits.
March 13, 2020 at 10:56 pm #112262Billy_TParticipantRobinson captures the difference so well, IMO. It’s the main reason why I’m a leftist and not a liberal. There are other reasons too. But that’s probably the main one for me.
The horrors of capitalism. No economic system comes close to it for body count, destruction of ecosystems, extinction levels for wildlife, or the creation of mass inequality. And it’s the first economic system in history to control the entire globe. It’s also the first to be fundamentally “imperialistic” all on its own, via its own internal logic and Prime Directive: Grow or Die.
Capitalism is perhaps modernity’s first “pandemic.”
. . .
And another hat tip to Zooey. I’m currently reading (in E-book form) a book by two authors he mentioned here. A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things A Guide to Capitalism, Nature, and the Future of the Planet
by Raj Patel (Author), Jason W. Moore (Author)
July 2018Really good so far.
March 14, 2020 at 10:57 am #112269CalParticipantItaly 2.6%
China 3.5%
Iran 10.6%USA is currently at 2.7% We’ve only conducted 7000 tests TOTAL in the entire US thus far.
We have ZERO handle on this, Drs are SCREAMING about symptomatic patients not being able to get tested and NO ONE knowing what to do if they clearly have COVID.
It is entirely possible using the 70% threshold and just Iran’s numbers (ours could be substantially worse considering the federal and state responses), we’re looking at potentially 24.4M DEAD.
As bad as Trump’s gov’t is handling the covid crisis, I think it’s unwise to think even 1 million people die in the US from Covid.
The country is taking the virus seriously now with schools, sports, and events being cancelled. Even though our system is incredibly screwed up because of Trump, there’s still lots of professionals who will do a good job. The US probably won’t come close to doing as good as Germany and South Korea. But Germany has 4,000 cases and 8 deaths. Yes EIGHT!
So this virus is hardly the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic where millions died.
And you can bet that Trump will be crowing about how well he managed the crisis.
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