Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › The Nordic Model — what the hell is it?
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November 18, 2019 at 10:19 am #108326wvParticipant
I keep trying to find books on Finland. And Norway. Books on their economic models and the history of how they came to be…whatever they are. I can find a thousand books on most nations but i rarely see anything on Finland or Norway. Why is that?
And what is “the Nordic Model” ? And can we call Finland or Norway a ‘socialist’ nation?
If not, what do we call them?The folks in this thread all say Finland is Capitalist…except the last guy:
Finland:https://www.quora.com/How-is-Finland-so-successful-as-a-socialist-country-and-would-their-system-work-in-the-United-States
How is Finland so successful as a socialist country and would their system work in the United States?
10 Answers———–
Answer no 10
Alan Sloan, Free thinker.
Answered Jun 17, 2018 · Author has 3.1k answers and 344.9k answer viewsGet yourself a dictionary and look up socialism.
Now get on Wiki and look up Finland Government Spending as a % of GDP
Now look up Finland in the Democracy Index where you find Finland listed as a “Full democracy”.
Now go back and read and consider the (imho dubious) accuracy of other answers that tell you Finland is “not socialist”.
Now read the following paragraph, and my one sentence answer:
As a fully democratic country whose people own and control half the economy, Finland can fairly be considered half socialist. The question was “would their system work in the US?”
Answer: Yes it would.
—————November 18, 2019 at 10:51 am #108328Billy_TParticipantIn my not so humble opinion, the Nordic countries are social democracies, not socialist. If I can be Mayor of Political Terminology for a moment, it’s my view that a country can’t be both capitalist and socialist at the same time. It can have socialist programs, but it can’t be socialist as a society. Socialism actually means capitalism has been (totally) replaced by a publicly owned, fully democratic economy, and a fully democratized workplace.
Capitalism is, by nature, autocratic at the individual business level and legally overall. I can’t see how it’s possible to have a democratic economy when all the individual components of that economy are anti-democratic. The sum of the anti-democratic parts can’t magically become democratic.
Also — and this is left out all too often in these discussions — the Nordic countries have had their share of “conservative” governments too, and when social democrats run the show, those conservatives are still there, fighting against what they’re doing. And, with few exceptions, all European nations have moved to the right over time, since the early 1970s. They do have a much wider political range than the US, but they’ve still moved to the right, especially on matters like immigration.
November 18, 2019 at 11:05 am #108330Billy_TParticipantWV,
If you’re looking for a book on the topic, though it’s indirectly about it, not directly, I’d highly recommend Tony Judt’s Ill Fares the Land. It’s short, so I think it would fit in with your workload schedule pretty well.
He was once further to the left, and that shows in some of his comments. But he’s basically making the case for social democracy, rather than socialism, and saying why.
I want full-on socialism, not social democracy. But what he proposes would be a big improvement on our current situation.
Martin Hagglund, in his brilliant This Life (which I’ve mentioned before), makes a very strong case for full-on socialism, which he calls “democratic socialism” — philosophically, pragmatically, effects-wise, etc. But his view is that while social democracy is an improvement over the neoliberal project, keeping capitalism in place sets up yet another contradiction that can’t be resolved. Capitalism needs endless capital accumulation. Social democracy reduces that, inadvertently adding to cyclical downturns and other problems. The answer for him — and for me — is to dump the current economic system which has so many of these natural issues of compatibility and conflict with political democracy.
It can’t be tamed, or reformed, or contained. It has to be replaced.
November 18, 2019 at 12:33 pm #108334nittany ramModeratorI think the Scandinavian countries are capitalist with strong social safety nets.
November 18, 2019 at 3:01 pm #108340wvParticipantFwiw, I ordered these two books.
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The Nordic Theory of Everything: In Search of a Better Life
by Anu PartanenThe Nordic Model: Scandinavia since 1945
by Mary Hilson
——————If nothing else, perhaps I will learn why Bud Grant always seemed to have a cold twinkle in his icy eyes. I’m guessing he was a white-walker.
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vNovember 18, 2019 at 3:35 pm #108341wvParticipantThere’s a shitload of anti nordic-model articles out there, by all the usual rightwing mags. Whatever the nordic-model is, it scares rightwingers.
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=======================Jacobin on Scandanavia:https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/national-review-williamson-bernie-sanders-sweden/
What Makes Scandinavia Different?
By Andreas Møller Mulvad and Rune Møller Stahl
What accounts for the Nordic countries’ strong welfare states? Hint: it’s not white homogeneity.
There’s a reason the Scandinavian welfare states are still the envy of many across the world. Even decades into a neoliberal project to reform them, Scandinavia sports relatively high income equality, large, tax-financed welfare programs, powerful unions, and relatively low unemployment rates.
Neoliberal textbooks tell us that the only way to societal prosperity is through low tax rates, deregulated business, and cut-throat competitive labor markets. Yet despite failing to meet the metrics of the Anglo-American variety of capitalism, Scandinavian countries stubbornly continue to prosper, and regularly come out on top of the global indexes of happiness and quality of life.
It is no surprise, therefore, to find neoliberals and conservatives devoting considerable intellectual energy to delegitimizing the “Nordic Model” of public welfare.
Earlier this year, the Institute of Economic Affairs, a British neoliberal think tank, devoted an entire book to Scandinavian “unexceptionalism.” The aim was to explain away the success story of the Nordic welfare states, arguing in classical Hayekian fashion that the success of the Nordic countries predates the era of public welfare, and that anything exceptional and successful about it has vanished since then.
Meanwhile in the US, where the Bernie Sanders campaign has thrown ideas of Nordic social democracy into the political mainstream, National Review’s Kevin Williamson has adopted the opposite strategy. In a couple of recent pieces he acknowledges the continuing exceptionalism of the Nordic experience and admits that the Nordic countries have indeed been relatively successful until very recently.
But in a strange plot twist Williamson also racializes the Nordic experience, tying the success of social-democratic policies to the alleged whiteness and homogeneity of the Nordic countries, thus undermining its credibility as a source of inspiration for American progressives committed to antiracism.
The “Nordic Consensus”In a National Review piece published in early July, Williamson calls Sanders a “national socialist” and denounces his use of “Us and Them” rhetoric as un-Scandinavian.
Williamson construes Sanders’s willingness to highlight conflicts of interest in popular power as being supposedly the “polar opposite” of how politics is done in Scandinavia — where politics is “consensus-driven” — and that where this “conformity” constitutes a “stabilizing and moderating force in politics, allowing for the emergence of a subtle and sophisticated and remarkably broad social agreement that contains political disputes.”
Scandinavian politics is much less partisan and more coalition-prone than in the US, with proportional representation effectively denying any one party an absolute parliamentary majority. But we should not mistake a contingent twentieth-century historical conjuncture of relative political civility for a supra-historical essence of Nordic political culture.
Today the universal welfare state and regulated, egalitarian labor markets, are so popular among voters that even liberal or conservative politicians wanting to dismantle them have to run as defenders of public welfare if they wish to avoid electoral suicide. But this situation did not emerge from the mists of history. It is the product of decades of struggles from organized labor and other popular movements throughout the twentieth century.
The social-democratic welfare state has faced strong historical challenges — both from the Left, by strong communist and new left movements, and from the Right, by organized business, such as the powerful Swedish employer organization SAF, and by Tea Party-like anti-taxation movements, which appeared in the 1970s in Norway and Denmark.
Simply put, the “Nordic Consensus” has never been as comprehensive as Williamson would have us believe…..see link…
November 18, 2019 at 4:02 pm #108342Billy_TParticipantI think the Scandinavian countries are capitalist with strong social safety nets.
There you go, ruining yet another thread with your concise, direct, to the point posts!!
;>)
November 18, 2019 at 4:18 pm #108343Billy_TParticipantGood article, WV.
Can you believe Williamson has the nerve to call Sanders a Nazi?
Unfriking believable.
. . .
Again, the Nordic model is probably, on balance, the best in effect anywhere right now, on a national scale. I’d put it at the top of what exists today.
But I want us to evolve much further. I want us to have societies all over the world that don’t need a social safety net to begin with. The economic system in place would function in such a way, up front, right off the bat, that all needs are met, and everyone makes a fair wage for work done. Wages and prices would sync up. That would be the plan. No one would be in debt. No one would be dependent on any institution. The economy itself would generate equality across the board, and it would be ours, under our control, not a few rich individuals or corporations. By right. Under a new constitution.
I’ve never really understood the logic behind “government redistribution,” if we could actually create alternatives from scratch. Why not get the original distribution right, so there’s no need to help folks out on the back end of things?
It’s a similar idea to this quote from Chinua Achebe:
“While we do our good works let us not forget that the real solution lies in a world in which charity will have become unnecessary.”
November 19, 2019 at 2:53 pm #108396JackPMillerParticipantDemocratic Socialist is just a term. Democratic Socialists would like us to be those Scandinavian countries, not Venezuela, as what conservative media wants to use, & the rightist want to say.
November 19, 2019 at 3:32 pm #108398nittany ramModeratorAnother Nordic Model.
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