Biden, Trump, the left, elections…

[wv]

Zooey wrote:

wv wrote:

===============

Well, its very tempting for leftists like us, to think the best strategy for HIM would be to lean left. But is that really accurate? I am not convinced.

I keep thinking about the senate: 99-1.

If i were a corporate-dem, why in the hell would i trust the folks who got the “1” elected, instead of the folks that got the 99 elected.

Sure the polls say, 60 or 70 percent of folks want M4A etc. But they dont VOTE that way do they. I mean even in a DEM primary, Biden beat Bernie. Straight up. Liberals/Dems had a choice — and they chose AGAINST the leftist.

So why would Biden lean left? If i were his evil-political-adviser I’d tell Biden to do just what he’s doing. Be bland, and lean towards Right-Center. The DNC strategy.

I hate it. But it is what it is.

w
v

I was pondering the old conundrum last night about why so many people vote for the GOP, counter to their own interests. And I was thinking that part of it is that those voters, like Trump supporters, are really low information voters, ya know. Nothing new there. But that doesn’t answer the question. They’re low information either way, so how does the GOP get their allegiance?

And then I thought, well, the GOP appeals to their core…values/lifestyle/myths…whatever. A lot of these people just wanna go to work, have a beer with friends, watch UFC, go to church, shoot some birds, ride their motorbikes, raft the river, whatever. No time to watch BS on the news, or read Atlantic Monthly. It’s not their thing. Life is immediate and local. So the GOP just taps into their gut instincts, their biases, their prejudices, and does so without fearing that they, as governors, will ever be inspected for their actions. These people aren’t following the budgets, or the political movements that swirl in Yemen. The GOP goes straight for the Id, and sometimes the Ego.

Democrats, OTOH, want to REASON with these people. Educate them on how their policies are better for them, and they are amazed when nobody bites that bait.

So…I start wondering WHY the Liberals/Left don’t go for the Id appeals as well. I mean…why not?

And I think that it’s because the Left and Right see other people differently. I am considering that maybe the Right actually has an advantage because they think of the masses as a commodity. People are widgets. They are just a different category of Materials necessary to conduct business on the one hand, and potential consumers of services and products on the other hand. They don’t care about the “human” aspects of their lives whatsoever. They are just there like clay, or steel, or tariffs, or tax breaks…just Things that need to be manipulated to their advantage. Appealing to their Id is just an efficient way to do that.

Liberals and the Left give them a little more credit than that. They see them as people with human concerns. But they see them as uneducated and, frankly, sometimes stupid. They are raw humans, Uncultivated Humans. So they/we are driven to try to appeal to them through a variety of “Don’t you see that THIS is in your best interest, and THAT is not?” kind of things, and then get frustrated when they turn the channel to The Masked Singer. Ultimately, I think that Liberals tend to look DOWN on the masses because they are FAILING TO GRASP THINGS. And the Left tends to be condescending to everybody, including Liberals, and even other Leftists.

Well…they HATE being condescended to. Everybody hates being condescended to. And here is where the Right has an advantage. They aren’t condescending to these people because they don’t place any human value on them in the first place. Nobody gets condescending to a horse because it’s a fucking horse. You harness it, and put it to use. So the Right can saddle up the masses partly because they don’t expect anything from them except their direct service. The left wants to…you know…SAVE them. Make their lives better. And when they don’t cooperate, well, it’s because they are Deplorable. They’re morons. They’re backwoods hicks and rubes and yokels.

So the GOP can bang the identity drums, and the people will march because they hear the drumming, and they feel welcomed.

The Democrats are hamstrung because they are trying to herd cats with shit like “Build Back Better,” whatever the fuck THAT is supposed to mean. And the Democrats don’t really have anything to offer because they aren’t committed to running on anything that will actually change lives. So it’s easy for the GOP to paint them as the party of giving away crap to OTHER people. And that’s totally believable because they certainly aren’t giving anything to ME. To US. To anybody in MY neighborhood. They’re trying to appeal to the masses without offering them a vision of anything other than Hope and Change and Harmony on the one hand, and a tall stack of Policy Papers on the other. Those just aren’t drumbeats that get them very far.

Biden is running as a Rorschach Test. He is largely a vacuum with an invitation to everybody to believe he is whatever they want him to be.

=========

All food for thought, for sure. There’s a lot there to unpack.

But what I think about all the fucking time — i cant let it go — is: Biden VS Bernie.

No republicans involved. None of their games came into play. This was totally a Dem Vote. And the Democrats rejected the Left. Just flat out rejected it. Democrats did that.

And sure, we all know that the powers-that-be did everything they could to get the Democrats to vote for Biden. All the usual shit. But Bernie’s message was out there. He’d been around for five years. People knew his message. The corporate media may have been tilted against him but people knew he was for an increase in Minimum Wage, free college, and M4A. And the DEMOCRAT voters rejected it. The Rep-thugs didnt even get in the game. The DEMOCRAT VOTERS rejected. Not the elites. The Dem VOTERS.

And while thinking about ‘that’ lovely dynamic, lets widen the perspective to include all the other Senate/Congressional Elections over the last fifty years. How many times have the DEMS (and Reps) rejected leftwingers? Almost Every fucking time. So, its not just something about Bernie.

Pretty dark picture. Why do i bring it up? I think its because I’ve spent time in the Left-twitter-bubble the last two days, and I am surprised at how often leftists FAIL to absorb and reflect on the awful historical facts. We are a small group. We are not a large uprising. We are not a great and powerful movement.

99-1.
The DEM voters freely and knowingly and willingly chose Biden over Bernie.

w
v

[wv]

It's also grotesque that Pelosi decided she would rather not have anything for millions of Americans than give Trump any sort of "win."

Pelosi played the psychopathic but correct political hand. Trump played the psychopathic and incorrect political hand. Cruelty all around.

— Krystal Ball (@krystalball) October 6, 2020

[Billy_T]

Ball really does sound like someone working for a Trumpkin. They must be paying her well.

Pelosi and the Dems passed a major aid package last spring. Several trillions worth of aid. The GOP blocked it. Wouldn’t even give it a vote on the Senate floor. The Dems continued to negotiate with the GOP for a better deal than the GOP was willing to give, compromising from the one they originally passed, but better than the alternative by more than a trillion.

So after all the bashing of the Dems for always doing too little, Ball calls Pelosi a psychopath for trying to ask for more aid than the Republicans are offering? For trying to actually help Americans more than the GOP is willing to? Seriously?

Trump shut this down, not Pelosi. Pelosi and Mnuchin were still in the middle of negotiations when Trump, high on steroids, ended this today.

[Billy_T]

Zooey,

I’m currently reading a really interesting book by Erich Fromm — he of the Frankfurt School. To Have or to Be. He talks about the way our language itself has changed over time, due to the shift into a mass consumerist society.

I agree with most of what you say about the divisions between left and right and the way folks look at the world, and how the right basically sees people as things. But isn’t that the prerequisite for capitalism itself? Isn’t that basically the underlying, unspoken rationale for making it legal for one human being to own the productive labor of hundreds of thousands?

They have to be things. And then to rationalize selling shit, they have to turn consumers into things too. Things can’t be hurt by that shit. We don’t have to care about things, especially those we can’t see. Or the ones we see here but aren’t like us — which is yet another level of thingliness.

Humankind needs a radical transformation into Being. People who are. Not people who own. Recent discussions with folks who should know better show how difficult this change will be, cuz, “human nature,” apparently, but if we don’t do it, we won’t last as a species much into the 22nd century.

In short, capitalism has done a number on the way we think about ourselves, our own “nature,” each other, and it’s all wrong. None of it is the case. None of it is accurate. And all of it is deadly.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Billy_T.

[Zooey]

Yeah, Billy. That’s well put. That’s what I’m driving at, I guess. And I just think that the GOP is more completely inclined to view people as Things than liberals are, and that just aligns with how everybody is indoctrinated to think, and it removes the Condescension. You never condescend to a Thing.

Liberals ARE condescending. Leftists, too. Maybe Leftists even more so. And so the masses hate universities and experts and everybody whom they feel look down their noses at them.

So…you take Trump. They identify with him because he is interested in the same things they are interested in – letting it all hang out without apologies to the snotty elitist types – and because he talks their language naturally. No condescension. He isn’t one of them, and has no use for them other than as a commodity, but he can bang their drumbeat like nobody else in decades. So even though he would spit in their faces if they showed up at Mar-a-Lago, his disdain for them never shows. Not because he likes them. But because they like him. And that’s ALL he cares about. They’re just Things to him, but because he does not care for them at all, they paradoxically feel included in his circle. He gives them attention, and makes them roar with delight.

They have grasped tightly to the Illusion of Acceptance.

[wv]

Zooey wrote:

Liberals ARE condescending. Leftists, too. Maybe Leftists even more so. And so the masses hate universities and experts and everybody whom they feel look down their noses at them.
.

================

Well, i dunno, but I know that I find myself being condescending all the time. I also find myself fighting my own habit of being condescending all the time.
I do it. But i try not to do it. And the pattern repeats.

Why do i do it? Because I am dealing with people who choose some weird Bible phrase over Science. Religion over Science.
Or, they choose some comforting political-myth over actual History.

So when I as a leftist am trying to communicate with a right-winger it is a huge challenge. How does one communicate with someone who believes in Myths/Religions and rejects History/Facts/Science?

It often either devolves into me being condescending, Or, I just find a way to change the subject to Football.

But….I do NOT find rightwingers being condescending to ME. Mainly they just pray for me, or shake their heads.

So, my personal experience has been that lefties are condescending and righties are not.

w
v

[Zooey]

Yeah. I agree with that. My experience, too. One of my idiot right wing brothers is condescending, but he’s an exception.

I fight it all the time, too. Even with allies, like liberals who are suddenly seeing things from a left perspective, and I’m all…oh, great. You just noticed that. Cool, cool. Like I’m talking to a 5-year old who just showed me that they got 80% of the lines right on a connect-the-dots sheet.

So people hate that, and with good reason.

[waterfield]

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

Liberals ARE condescending. Leftists, too. Maybe Leftists even more so. And so the masses hate universities and experts and everybody whom they feel look down their noses at them.
.

================

Well, i dunno, but I know that I find myself being condescending all the time. I also find myself fighting my own habit of being condescending all the time.
I do it. But i try not to do it. And the pattern repeats.

Why do i do it? Because I am dealing with people who choose some weird Bible phrase over Science. Religion over Science.
Or, they choose some comforting political-myth over actual History.

So when I as a leftist am trying to communicate with a right-winger it is a huge challenge. How does one communicate with someone who believes in Myths/Religions and rejects History/Facts/Science?

It often either devolves into me being condescending, Or, I just find a way to change the subject to Football.

But….I do NOT find rightwingers being condescending to ME. Mainly they just pray for me, or shake their heads.

So, my personal experience has been that lefties are condescending and righties are not.

w
v

My answer is never to tell people they are “wrong”. But to ask them questions-much like taking a deposition. If one says science doesn’t know everything-my question is “why do you say that”. Then they will say something like “I had a friend who…” Then I ask “do you personally know of others”. At some point the message comes across without them feeling they are looked down upon by someone who comes off as “having all the answers”. Might and likely won’t change their opinions but might give them a pause to think a second time about an issue. “Why do you ” are three very powerful words.

[Billy_T]

Zooey wrote:

Yeah, Billy. That’s well put. That’s what I’m driving at, I guess. And I just think that the GOP is more completely inclined to view people as Things than liberals are, and that just aligns with how everybody is indoctrinated to think, and it removes the Condescension. You never condescend to a Thing.

Liberals ARE condescending. Leftists, too. Maybe Leftists even more so. And so the masses hate universities and experts and everybody whom they feel look down their noses at them.

So…you take Trump. They identify with him because he is interested in the same things they are interested in – letting it all hang out without apologies to the snotty elitist types – and because he talks their language naturally. No condescension. He isn’t one of them, and has no use for them other than as a commodity, but he can bang their drumbeat like nobody else in decades. So even though he would spit in their faces if they showed up at Mar-a-Lago, his disdain for them never shows. Not because he likes them. But because they like him. And that’s ALL he cares about. They’re just Things to him, but because he does not care for them at all, they paradoxically feel included in his circle. He gives them attention, and makes them roar with delight.

They have grasped tightly to the Illusion of Acceptance.

Well put. Condescension is a huge problem for the left. At least the perception of condescension.

We gotta find another way of messaging. We gotta get better at “sales.” It basically helps keep the GOP in the game — our inability along those lines — cuz they’ve mastered the Big Lie. Invented it, actually. They’re great at sales, which they need, cuz their product is for shit.

Also, unlike the left, they can play at “man of the people,” drive into town with their beat-up truck, wear their old cowboy hat, give their spiel, then go back to their mansions, laughing up a storm, and cut new tax breaks for themselves and their billionaire friends. Lefties reject that game. But this often hurts lefties at the polls, ironically.

In the capitalist system, no one is more at a disadvantage than folks with consciences, moral compasses, shame or empathy, and I think it’s safe to say that “the left” kicks butt on those grounds. We also have a much tougher time, in general, lying about the way things are. Or lying, period. The right couldn’t care less about its lies and their effects, as long as it “wins.” Means to an end.

Again, in general. Exceptions exist, of course.

___

Good topic. More later. Possible tangent? Different life-choices for left and right. Why are “creatives” far more likely to be lefties, for instance? Or social workers, teachers, scientists, and so on? Again, Being versus Having. Which is more important? Who we are? Or What we Own?

Hope everyone is healthy and safe.

[Billy_T]

Quick addendum:

I’ve found that righties are often condescending on certain topics. Talk to a righty about “economics” and you’re bound to get a lecture on how stupid liberals and leftists are when it comes to “the real world.” Same goes when it comes to military stuff, and until recently, geopolitics in general. Until Trump, righties were wont to lecture us on Spy-stuff too. They’ve done a complete 180 on that one.

Righties are also often condescending about religious matters, “patriotism,” and sports, as well.

But they’re graded on a curve, and far too many lefties have internalized that curve, so we all too often think we’re guiltier.

More likely: We have a greater capacity for guilt, shame, self-criticism, self-analysis, empathy, sympathy and consciences, etc. etc. . . .

[waterfield]

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

wv wrote:

===============

Well, its very tempting for leftists like us, to think the best strategy for HIM would be to lean left. But is that really accurate? I am not convinced.

I keep thinking about the senate: 99-1.

If i were a corporate-dem, why in the hell would i trust the folks who got the “1” elected, instead of the folks that got the 99 elected.

Sure the polls say, 60 or 70 percent of folks want M4A etc. But they dont VOTE that way do they. I mean even in a DEM primary, Biden beat Bernie. Straight up. Liberals/Dems had a choice — and they chose AGAINST the leftist.

So why would Biden lean left? If i were his evil-political-adviser I’d tell Biden to do just what he’s doing. Be bland, and lean towards Right-Center. The DNC strategy.

I hate it. But it is what it is.

w
v

I was pondering the old conundrum last night about why so many people vote for the GOP, counter to their own interests. And I was thinking that part of it is that those voters, like Trump supporters, are really low information voters, ya know. Nothing new there. But that doesn’t answer the question. They’re low information either way, so how does the GOP get their allegiance?

And then I thought, well, the GOP appeals to their core…values/lifestyle/myths…whatever. A lot of these people just wanna go to work, have a beer with friends, watch UFC, go to church, shoot some birds, ride their motorbikes, raft the river, whatever. No time to watch BS on the news, or read Atlantic Monthly. It’s not their thing. Life is immediate and local. So the GOP just taps into their gut instincts, their biases, their prejudices, and does so without fearing that they, as governors, will ever be inspected for their actions. These people aren’t following the budgets, or the political movements that swirl in Yemen. The GOP goes straight for the Id, and sometimes the Ego.

Democrats, OTOH, want to REASON with these people. Educate them on how their policies are better for them, and they are amazed when nobody bites that bait.

So…I start wondering WHY the Liberals/Left don’t go for the Id appeals as well. I mean…why not?

And I think that it’s because the Left and Right see other people differently. I am considering that maybe the Right actually has an advantage because they think of the masses as a commodity. People are widgets. They are just a different category of Materials necessary to conduct business on the one hand, and potential consumers of services and products on the other hand. They don’t care about the “human” aspects of their lives whatsoever. They are just there like clay, or steel, or tariffs, or tax breaks…just Things that need to be manipulated to their advantage. Appealing to their Id is just an efficient way to do that.

Liberals and the Left give them a little more credit than that. They see them as people with human concerns. But they see them as uneducated and, frankly, sometimes stupid. They are raw humans, Uncultivated Humans. So they/we are driven to try to appeal to them through a variety of “Don’t you see that THIS is in your best interest, and THAT is not?” kind of things, and then get frustrated when they turn the channel to The Masked Singer. Ultimately, I think that Liberals tend to look DOWN on the masses because they are FAILING TO GRASP THINGS. And the Left tends to be condescending to everybody, including Liberals, and even other Leftists.

Well…they HATE being condescended to. Everybody hates being condescended to. And here is where the Right has an advantage. They aren’t condescending to these people because they don’t place any human value on them in the first place. Nobody gets condescending to a horse because it’s a fucking horse. You harness it, and put it to use. So the Right can saddle up the masses partly because they don’t expect anything from them except their direct service. The left wants to…you know…SAVE them. Make their lives better. And when they don’t cooperate, well, it’s because they are Deplorable. They’re morons. They’re backwoods hicks and rubes and yokels.

So the GOP can bang the identity drums, and the people will march because they hear the drumming, and they feel welcomed.

The Democrats are hamstrung because they are trying to herd cats with shit like “Build Back Better,” whatever the fuck THAT is supposed to mean. And the Democrats don’t really have anything to offer because they aren’t committed to running on anything that will actually change lives. So it’s easy for the GOP to paint them as the party of giving away crap to OTHER people. And that’s totally believable because they certainly aren’t giving anything to ME. To US. To anybody in MY neighborhood. They’re trying to appeal to the masses without offering them a vision of anything other than Hope and Change and Harmony on the one hand, and a tall stack of Policy Papers on the other. Those just aren’t drumbeats that get them very far.

Biden is running as a Rorschach Test. He is largely a vacuum with an invitation to everybody to believe he is whatever they want him to be.

=========

All food for thought, for sure. There’s a lot there to unpack.

But what I think about all the fucking time — i cant let it go — is: Biden VS Bernie.

No republicans involved. None of their games came into play. This was totally a Dem Vote. And the Democrats rejected the Left. Just flat out rejected it. Democrats did that.

And sure, we all know that the powers-that-be did everything they could to get the Democrats to vote for Biden. All the usual shit. But Bernie’s message was out there. He’d been around for five years. People knew his message. The corporate media may have been tilted against him but people knew he was for an increase in Minimum Wage, free college, and M4A. And the DEMOCRAT voters rejected it. The Rep-thugs didnt even get in the game. The DEMOCRAT VOTERS rejected. Not the elites. The Dem VOTERS.

And while thinking about ‘that’ lovely dynamic, lets widen the perspective to include all the other Senate/Congressional Elections over the last fifty years. How many times have the DEMS (and Reps) rejected leftwingers? Almost Every fucking time. So, its not just something about Bernie.

Pretty dark picture. Why do i bring it up? I think its because I’ve spent time in the Left-twitter-bubble the last two days, and I am surprised at how often leftists FAIL to absorb and reflect on the awful historical facts. We are a small group. We are not a large uprising. We are not a great and powerful movement.

99-1.
The DEM voters freely and knowingly and willingly chose Biden over Bernie.

w
v

Not sure your right on your “rejection” theory. I don’t think that was about not agreeing with the policies advanced by Sanders as much as a fear that Trump would win if Sanders was the nominee. I believe there is clearly a future for progressive policies and values in the Democratic party. And that could be nearer than you think.

[waterfield]

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

wv wrote:

===============

Well, its very tempting for leftists like us, to think the best strategy for HIM would be to lean left. But is that really accurate? I am not convinced.

I keep thinking about the senate: 99-1.

If i were a corporate-dem, why in the hell would i trust the folks who got the “1” elected, instead of the folks that got the 99 elected.

Sure the polls say, 60 or 70 percent of folks want M4A etc. But they dont VOTE that way do they. I mean even in a DEM primary, Biden beat Bernie. Straight up. Liberals/Dems had a choice — and they chose AGAINST the leftist.

So why would Biden lean left? If i were his evil-political-adviser I’d tell Biden to do just what he’s doing. Be bland, and lean towards Right-Center. The DNC strategy.

I hate it. But it is what it is.

w
v

I was pondering the old conundrum last night about why so many people vote for the GOP, counter to their own interests. And I was thinking that part of it is that those voters, like Trump supporters, are really low information voters, ya know. Nothing new there. But that doesn’t answer the question. They’re low information either way, so how does the GOP get their allegiance?

And then I thought, well, the GOP appeals to their core…values/lifestyle/myths…whatever. A lot of these people just wanna go to work, have a beer with friends, watch UFC, go to church, shoot some birds, ride their motorbikes, raft the river, whatever. No time to watch BS on the news, or read Atlantic Monthly. It’s not their thing. Life is immediate and local. So the GOP just taps into their gut instincts, their biases, their prejudices, and does so without fearing that they, as governors, will ever be inspected for their actions. These people aren’t following the budgets, or the political movements that swirl in Yemen. The GOP goes straight for the Id, and sometimes the Ego.

Democrats, OTOH, want to REASON with these people. Educate them on how their policies are better for them, and they are amazed when nobody bites that bait.

So…I start wondering WHY the Liberals/Left don’t go for the Id appeals as well. I mean…why not?

And I think that it’s because the Left and Right see other people differently. I am considering that maybe the Right actually has an advantage because they think of the masses as a commodity. People are widgets. They are just a different category of Materials necessary to conduct business on the one hand, and potential consumers of services and products on the other hand. They don’t care about the “human” aspects of their lives whatsoever. They are just there like clay, or steel, or tariffs, or tax breaks…just Things that need to be manipulated to their advantage. Appealing to their Id is just an efficient way to do that.

Liberals and the Left give them a little more credit than that. They see them as people with human concerns. But they see them as uneducated and, frankly, sometimes stupid. They are raw humans, Uncultivated Humans. So they/we are driven to try to appeal to them through a variety of “Don’t you see that THIS is in your best interest, and THAT is not?” kind of things, and then get frustrated when they turn the channel to The Masked Singer. Ultimately, I think that Liberals tend to look DOWN on the masses because they are FAILING TO GRASP THINGS. And the Left tends to be condescending to everybody, including Liberals, and even other Leftists.

Well…they HATE being condescended to. Everybody hates being condescended to. And here is where the Right has an advantage. They aren’t condescending to these people because they don’t place any human value on them in the first place. Nobody gets condescending to a horse because it’s a fucking horse. You harness it, and put it to use. So the Right can saddle up the masses partly because they don’t expect anything from them except their direct service. The left wants to…you know…SAVE them. Make their lives better. And when they don’t cooperate, well, it’s because they are Deplorable. They’re morons. They’re backwoods hicks and rubes and yokels.

So the GOP can bang the identity drums, and the people will march because they hear the drumming, and they feel welcomed.

The Democrats are hamstrung because they are trying to herd cats with shit like “Build Back Better,” whatever the fuck THAT is supposed to mean. And the Democrats don’t really have anything to offer because they aren’t committed to running on anything that will actually change lives. So it’s easy for the GOP to paint them as the party of giving away crap to OTHER people. And that’s totally believable because they certainly aren’t giving anything to ME. To US. To anybody in MY neighborhood. They’re trying to appeal to the masses without offering them a vision of anything other than Hope and Change and Harmony on the one hand, and a tall stack of Policy Papers on the other. Those just aren’t drumbeats that get them very far.

Biden is running as a Rorschach Test. He is largely a vacuum with an invitation to everybody to believe he is whatever they want him to be.

=========

All food for thought, for sure. There’s a lot there to unpack.

But what I think about all the fucking time — i cant let it go — is: Biden VS Bernie.

No republicans involved. None of their games came into play. This was totally a Dem Vote. And the Democrats rejected the Left. Just flat out rejected it. Democrats did that.

And sure, we all know that the powers-that-be did everything they could to get the Democrats to vote for Biden. All the usual shit. But Bernie’s message was out there. He’d been around for five years. People knew his message. The corporate media may have been tilted against him but people knew he was for an increase in Minimum Wage, free college, and M4A. And the DEMOCRAT voters rejected it. The Rep-thugs didnt even get in the game. The DEMOCRAT VOTERS rejected. Not the elites. The Dem VOTERS.

And while thinking about ‘that’ lovely dynamic, lets widen the perspective to include all the other Senate/Congressional Elections over the last fifty years. How many times have the DEMS (and Reps) rejected leftwingers? Almost Every fucking time. So, its not just something about Bernie.

Pretty dark picture. Why do i bring it up? I think its because I’ve spent time in the Left-twitter-bubble the last two days, and I am surprised at how often leftists FAIL to absorb and reflect on the awful historical facts. We are a small group. We are not a large uprising. We are not a great and powerful movement.

99-1.
The DEM voters freely and knowingly and willingly chose Biden over Bernie.

w
v

Personally I think you might be wrong on your “rejection” theory. I don’t think progressive values were rejected in the primaries. Rather it was more a fear of Trump winning again if Sanders was the nominee. There is clearly a future for progressives in the Democratic party and for those voters who went to the poles and voted for Biden over Sanders. And that future is likely to be nearer than you think. With some exceptions (racists, etc) progressive values and policies appeal to the same people that Trump caters to. The “system” has not done them right and they want radical changes-whatever they might be.

[wv]

waterfield wrote:

<
My answer is never to tell people they are “wrong”. But to ask them questions-much like taking a deposition. If one says science doesn’t know everything-my question is “why do you say that”. Then they will say something like “I had a friend who…” Then I ask “do you personally know of others”. At some point the message comes across without them feeling they are looked down upon by someone who comes off as “having all the answers”. Might and likely won’t change their opinions but might give them a pause to think a second time about an issue. “Why do you ” are three very powerful words.

=================

OK, but at what point do you usually pull out an ice-pick and run it through their walnut-brain? Because i find that its best to do it just after I’ve asked them an ‘I have a friend’ question.

w
v

[Billy_T]

wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

<
My answer is never to tell people they are “wrong”. But to ask them questions-much like taking a deposition. If one says science doesn’t know everything-my question is “why do you say that”. Then they will say something like “I had a friend who…” Then I ask “do you personally know of others”. At some point the message comes across without them feeling they are looked down upon by someone who comes off as “having all the answers”. Might and likely won’t change their opinions but might give them a pause to think a second time about an issue. “Why do you ” are three very powerful words.

=================

OK, but at what point do you usually pull out an ice-pick and run it through their walnut-brain? Because i find that its best to do it just after I’ve asked them an ‘I have a friend’ question.

w
v

You’re just being modest. I’ve always seen you as pretty good at that sort of thing, WV. Patient, almost tireless, and able to communicate with pretty much anyone. You’re a very good spokes-dude for the left.

I have my good days too, but I suspect they’re far rarer than yours, and my bull in a china shop moods hit me too often.

Lately, I’ve been discussing these things with family, too, with some recent, surprising advances, but mostly mixed results. I still have a ton to learn.

As always, thanks to you and others here for recs on this or that writer/thinker/activist, etc.

[wv]

Billy_T wrote:

You’re just being modest. I’ve always seen you as pretty good at that sort of thing, WV. Patient, almost tireless, and able to communicate with pretty much anyone. You’re a very good spokes-dude for the left.

I have my good days too, but I suspect they’re far rarer than yours, and my bull in a china shop moods hit me too often.

Lately, I’ve been discussing these things with family, too, with some recent, surprising advances, but mostly mixed results. I still have a ton to learn.

As always, thanks to you and others here for recs on this or that writer/thinker/activist, etc.

=================

Well, I dunno. I think maybe all the Propaganda-Induced-Ignorance has just taken a toll over the years. But more than that, i guess, is I just KNOW how all the conversations are gonna go. I know how people are going to respond. I can play all the parts. I do not experience anyone changing anyone’s mind. So, what is the point?

Like many many many leftists, who got old, and burned out, i have basically turned to Nature. Quiet, soothing, peaceful Nature.

w
v

[wv]

Trump may have to start a War, to get back in this thing. Or ramp up the vote-suppression.

=====================

Trump is getting destroyed LMAO https://t.co/n57l0wZhYm

— Good Morning, Sunday Morning 🥋 (@SocialistMMA) October 7, 2020

[Billy_T]

wv wrote:

Billy_T wrote:

You’re just being modest. I’ve always seen you as pretty good at that sort of thing, WV. Patient, almost tireless, and able to communicate with pretty much anyone. You’re a very good spokes-dude for the left.

I have my good days too, but I suspect they’re far rarer than yours, and my bull in a china shop moods hit me too often.

Lately, I’ve been discussing these things with family, too, with some recent, surprising advances, but mostly mixed results. I still have a ton to learn.

As always, thanks to you and others here for recs on this or that writer/thinker/activist, etc.

=================

Well, I dunno. I think maybe all the Propaganda-Induced-Ignorance has just taken a toll over the years. But more than that, i guess, is I just KNOW how all the conversations are gonna go. I know how people are going to respond. I can play all the parts. I do not experience anyone changing anyone’s mind. So, what is the point?

Like many many many leftists, who got old, and burned out, i have basically turned to Nature. Quiet, soothing, peaceful Nature.

w
v

Thanks for the vid. Will take a look.

Nature. At the risk of sounding grandiose, that’s where I should have made my home. That’s what the plan was, in a sense, after my first go-round with college. Be a painter of nature. Paint abstractions. Make it new. Make it surreal. Write poetry to go with those paintings, and survive on that. But it wasn’t to be.

I still write poems, but disabused myself of the idea of major recognition, if not renown, via those poems or paintings. But, yeah, being a leftist? Makes that retreat necessary again.

In Fromm’s book, he talks about the difference between a poem by Tennyson and one by Basho.

Tennyson:

Flower in a crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the
crannies,
I hold you here, root and all
in my hand,
Little flower — but if I could
understand
What you are, root and all,
and all in all,
I should know what God
and man is.

__

Basho’s, in English translation:

When I look carefully
I see the nazuna blooming
By the hedge!

Fromm notes the two poems hold very different visions. Tennyson wants to possess nature, knowing he’ll have to kill that part of Her to do it. Basho, on the other hand, wants to really “see” Her. Leave her intact.

Being versus owning. Becoming versus having, possession, property, etc.

It was a catastrophe when humans removed the divine from nature and placed a god above it all, transcendent, instead of immanent. Stripping her of the Sacred, offloading all of that into the being of the former volcano god, Yahweh, was the beginning of the end of Planet Earth.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Billy_T.

[Zooey]

waterfield wrote:

Personally I think you might be wrong on your “rejection” theory. I don’t think progressive values were rejected in the primaries. Rather it was more a fear of Trump winning again if Sanders was the nominee. There is clearly a future for progressives in the Democratic party and for those voters who went to the poles and voted for Biden over Sanders. And that future is likely to be nearer than you think. With some exceptions (racists, etc) progressive values and policies appeal to the same people that Trump caters to. The “system” has not done them right and they want radical changes-whatever they might be.

That never crossed my mind, but you may be right about that. I remember hearing, both in recorded interviews with voters, and in print that a lot of people were saying that they basically liked Bernie’s positions better, but were worried he wouldn’t win, and just saw Biden as more “electable.”

So if you are right, what people pushing for more progressive action need is not to win more people to their positions, but to convince more people that their positions are “winnable.”

That may be, actually. Dunno.

[zn]

Originally posted by Zooey in another thread, moved here by me:

Zooey wrote:

.

Right-wing fuckery is way worse than shitlibery, but shitlibery is still a serious problem

— David Sirota (@davidsirota) October 7, 2020

[waterfield]

Zooey wrote:

waterfield wrote:

Personally I think you might be wrong on your “rejection” theory. I don’t think progressive values were rejected in the primaries. Rather it was more a fear of Trump winning again if Sanders was the nominee. There is clearly a future for progressives in the Democratic party and for those voters who went to the poles and voted for Biden over Sanders. And that future is likely to be nearer than you think. With some exceptions (racists, etc) progressive values and policies appeal to the same people that Trump caters to. The “system” has not done them right and they want radical changes-whatever they might be.

That never crossed my mind, but you may be right about that. I remember hearing, both in recorded interviews with voters, and in print that a lot of people were saying that they basically liked Bernie’s positions better, but were worried he wouldn’t win, and just saw Biden as more “electable.”

So if you are right, what people pushing for more progressive action need is not to win more people to their positions, but to convince more people that their positions are “winnable.”

That may be, actually. Dunno.

I am certain about this. If Biden beats Trump the political move will be to the left and more progressives will become in power. If Trump wins the progressive movement will be pushed back even more especially if the economy rebounds. The analogy is that under Biden progressives will be like swimmer drowning but being able to reach the surface and finally surface and have room to breath. With Trump those same progressives will be trying as hard to reach the surface but unable to. Progressives should not be depressed if Biden wins. On the contrary it will allow them the freedom to breath life into their views.

[waterfield]

Biden is like a gatekeeper. If he wins he will open the gate extremely wide and many different views will be allowed into the arena. If Trump wins the gate will only be open for those who pass his loyalty test.

[zn]

waterfield wrote:

Biden is like a gatekeeper. If he wins he will open the gate extremely wide and many different views will be allowed into the arena. If Trump wins the gate will only be open for those who pass his loyalty test.

Trump is bad and we all know it.

Biden on the other hand has never opened and most likely will never open the gate to many different views.

He’s not as bad as Trump and we’ll have to settle for that.

[wv]

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

Biden is like a gatekeeper. If he wins he will open the gate extremely wide and many different views will be allowed into the arena. If Trump wins the gate will only be open for those who pass his loyalty test.

Trump is bad and we all know it.

Biden on the other hand has never opened and most likely will never open the gate to many different views.

He’s not as bad as Trump and we’ll have to settle for that.

==============

Yes. There is zero reason to think Biden will be anything but what he has ALWAYS been. He will certainly not move to the Left.

At any rate, he is kinda irrelevant. If the left is to ever become anything, it will have to start from the ground up. Smaller elections. One by one.
If the Left cant win those, then the rest is just smoke and dreams, etc.

w
v

[Billy_T]

wv wrote:

Yes. There is zero reason to think Biden will be anything but what he has ALWAYS been. He will certainly not move to the Left.

At any rate, he is kinda irrelevant. If the left is to ever become anything, it will have to start from the ground up. Smaller elections. One by one.
If the Left cant win those, then the rest is just smoke and dreams, etc.

w
v

I agree with all of that. It’s really what “the left” should have been working on for the last several generations. At the very least, from WWII on. If we had, if we had built from the ground up, literally starting with school boards and dog catchers, we’d actually be a force on the national level by now. Instead, “the left” has tried far too hard to skip over what the two major parties themselves once went through, and start at the top. Run national campaigns, instead of locally, despite having near-zero funding or media.

Local officials first. No turning up the nose at their supposed modest powers. Link them, town by town, county by county, state legislators by state, etc. etc. Match them up with outside activist groups as well, with the latter being beyond essential.

Ironically, the GOP still works hard at this, which is why it currently has a plan to replace Electors in each swing state in case the popular vote (per state) doesn’t go their way. As in, Biden could actually win the electoral college and “lose” the election, due to GOP dirty tricks — which, btw, they were ready to implement in 2016 too, if Clinton had won.

It’s never too late. But it’s beyond a tragedy that we leftists still have no action plan beyond the DSA running Dems here and there. Gotta go back to the mattresses, small is beautiful, local is all, etc. etc. and build up from there.

[Billy_T]

On Biden: I don’t think this is about him, either. He’s going to remain a centrist, but he’ll surround himself with relatively competent people, who aren’t aggressively, psychotically cruel, won’t purposely deny science, won’t open up places like Tongass National Forest to logging and development, won’t turn mask-wearing into a political statement, thereby saving the lives of hundreds of thousands, and he/they won’t have a policy to separate families and slash asylum levels, just to please the fascist base.

(Reporting today details the extent of this plan, and implication Rod Rosenstein as well.)

Opening up Tongass, btw, slipped under the radar for most Americans, but it’s a body blow to the plant. Trump decided to do this near the end of his term, and its effects will radically accelerate climate change. It’s a major tragedy for Planet Earth. For that alone, if for nothing else, leftists shouldn’t have to think twice about their votes.

[wv]

Sigh. Just when i think Biden has it in the bag.

Newsweek poll:https://www.newsweek.com/less-month-until-election-donald-trump-doing-better-swing-state-polls-this-time-2016-1535611
With Less Than a Month Until the Election, Donald Trump Is Doing Better in Swing State Polls Than This Time in 2016

[wv]

The reason liberals lose debates to right-wingers is that they refuse to defend taxes, government spending, more immigration, etc. as good things. So they essentially concede that conservatives are correct about everything. See Kamala going "No no we love fracking!"

— Nathan J Robinson (@NathanJRobinson) October 8, 2020

[wv]

Biden and Harris have not done very well in the debates and it's partly BECAUSE they're centrists, and centrists end up getting into fights with the right over "who will cut taxes more," a fight the right will always win because it presumes their premises are correct.

— Nathan J Robinson (@NathanJRobinson) October 8, 2020

[Zooey]

I thought there was a Lib vs Left thread, but I can’t find it.

[Mackeyser]

Zooey wrote:

Mackeyser wrote:

Why in every meme does she look like she just gave her hubby his birthday BJ and wants him to be happy, but absolutely, positively won’t swallow…

So she’s just stuck there…with her mouth full and this weird awkward smile…thing…on her face.

I dunno. It’s weird.

I just want you to know that I would pay above market value to spend a day with you and your family at a BBQ afternoon anywhere.

I really, really wish you would post more here.

Have to see what we can do.

Gonna be awhile, but a post-COVID meet up would be pretty awesome.

Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

[Author]

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