The Holy Quran Experiment

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  • #35218
    zn
    Moderator

    #35340
    Cal
    Participant

    Anybody who knows their Christianity shouldn’t be too surprised that the Bible contains such vitriol. I know if somebody pulled that little stunt on me, my reaction when they did their grand reveal of the Bible would have been, “Ehhhh”.

    As a non-religious person, I’d like someone to explain to me what redeeming qualities Islam DOES have. I don’t call myself a Christian, but at least Christ says a lot of good stuff. You know, “Be as the lilies in the field,” “To Caesar what is Caesar’s; to God what is God’s,” “Turn the other cheek”. (Again, I’m no religious scholar, so maybe I got some of that stuff wrong. Please correct me if I did.)

    My question—and I think it’s a pretty damn good question—is, “Does Mohammed say anything like Christ says?”. From just a half an hour of reading about Mohammed on Wikipedia, he sounds like a fighter. He doesn’t sound anything like Christ or Buddha.

    And if Mohammed doesn’t say anything admirable like Christ or Buddha, I’d say secular people should say, “Yeah, Islam is a stupid religion”. (That should also be the reaction to Mormons.)
    I’m not saying Muslims should be put on some list or rounded up. But if there isn’t a substantial vein of noble and admirable teachings that redeem the Muslim religion, it should be seen as a ridiculous pursuit.

    When young people today tell me they smoke, I tell them “Why? That’s a waste of your money and health.” People should have a similar reaction to a religion that encourages violence.

    So if anyone can shed light on what the Islamic holy books say that is admirable, I’d like to hear it.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Cal.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Cal.
    #35344
    PA Ram
    Participant

    It’s a good question and unfortunately, I don’t have an answer for you.

    I personally am not a fan of organized religion. It’s more of a controlling tool for the powerful over the weak. This is not to say I am not spiritual but I think that’s a very personal individual thing. While I love much of the eastern philosophy of Taoism and Buddhism, that too can be warped into a cult with corrupt leaders. All organized religion can.

    This is not to say that all churches are corrupt. Many many of them do good charitable work. And in times of personal crises if someone finds solace in the church–good for them. But it should never mix with government or politics. That’s dangerous. Any religion that wants to establish a theocracy is out of line.

    I read the Koran once–or at least some of it. And I can’t remember much about it except it’s organized from the smallest passage to the largest, I believe. Jesus is in there but he’s not God. I remember it sounding very much like a text that tried to correct some things in the Bible.

    And yes–Muhammad was a warrior.

    At the time I was reading it I wasn’t looking for anything specific, I just was curious about it.

    I also read parts of the Bible and was shocked with some of the things in there because when I was younger and went to church they didn’t talk much about those things.

    I am probably more amazed by how a female could be attracted to organized religion because they don’t seem to take a high view of women.

    I do believe that all religions can be hijacked by maniacs. Islamic scholars make this claim in regard to ISIS. I heard one guy calling their interpretation of things “bizarre”. It is a death cult, an apocalyptic cult so maybe it’s unfair to judge all of Islam by that particular group. But clearly there are threads in the different schools that are disturbing.

    And yet–there are certainly peaceful Muslims.

    I know this doesn’t answer your question. I hope someone can answer it because I’d love to read about that.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #35345
    zn
    Moderator

    As a non-religious person, I’d like someone to explain to me what redeeming qualities Islam DOES have.

    It;s a testimony to what things in the USA are like now that someone would actually ask that question regarding an entire religion followed by millions, all because of actions by a militant splinter group off of wahhabi islam, which in turn is a splinter group off of Sunni islam.

    It would be as if the actions of a militant splinter group off of pentacostals, which in turn is a splinter group off of general protestantism, caused someone to ask “is there ANYTHING redeeming about christianity?”

    That’s not a stretched analogy. It is precisely like that.

    It means there is no mainstream news, no mainstream discourse, no mainstream talk out there to make it apparent that THAT is a very strange question.

    .

    #35353
    PA Ram
    Participant

    It means there is no mainstream news, no mainstream discourse, no mainstream talk out there to make it apparent that THAT is a very strange question.

    That’s going to happen when you are ignorant to a topic. There will be strange and sometimes nonsensical questions. But it’s okay to ask it because you’re curious enough to seek an answer to the question. Worse is not asking it at all and just assuming that it is a violent religion with no redeeming qualities. I wish more people sincerely asked these questions.

    I can’t tell you how many times I hear Buddha referred to as a god. “Buddha isn’t God.”

    Nope. He never said he was.

    Heck people are ignorant to their very own religion. Christians are, Muslims are, Buddhists are– all of them.

    Ultimately people will take what they like about it and leave the rest. It will all make sense to them and they will BELIEVE that THEIR way is the right way. They’ll KNOW.

    But you have to ask questions–strange or not.

    That’s how you gain understanding. And the world needs more of that.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #35354
    zn
    Moderator

    But you have to ask questions–strange or not.

    That’s how you gain understanding. And the world needs more of that.

    That’s true in general. But think about it…we know so little about islam in the USA that we can actually ask things like “are there any redeeming qualities” to this religion of millions and millions.

    How can there not be. It’s a religion of millions and millions. All very different people and peoples.

    I cen see asking “what ARE the redeeming qualities.”

    But to ask if there are ANY just means we’ve absorbed the mainstream anti-islamic view. I mean, in advance, the answer is simple, without even looking: how could there not be, it’s a religion of millions and millions.

    “What ARE they” is a different question, which begins with the premise that we personally just don’t know.

    .============

    10 Things I Wish Everyone Knew About Islam

    http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/09/26/10-things-i-wish-everyone-knew-about-islam/34271

    Islam is always in the news, and we get it wrong much too often. This is part of a broader problem about understanding religion, but I think it has particular resonance in the case of the most familiar yet most misunderstood religion.

    While I’m still not sold on the listicle form of an essay, I thought I should give it another crack, this time for the tradition with which I’m most professionally familiar. Thus, in short order, here are 10 things I wish everyone knew about Islam.

    1. The Qur’an is to Jesus as Muhammad is to the Bible.

    Too often, people make this error of analogy: the Qur’an is to the Christian Bible as Muhammad is to Jesus. In fact, something like the opposite is the case. For Muslims, the Qur’an, especially in its recited form, is an incarnation of God on earth, and is thus not just a book, nor even a holy text deserving of respect. Instead, it is God’s words in the proverbial flesh.

    And much like the Bible is for Christians, Muhammad is the vehicle by which the Muslim conception of the divine was made known.

    While this doesn’t (I don’t think) fully explain the occasional riot or protest that erupts when news of some desecration of the Qur’an comes out, those of the Christian persuasion might well wonder how they’d react to seeing Jesus (again) trampled upon and abused.

    2. Muslims LOVE Jesus.

    Like, a lot. While Muslims do not hold that Jesus was divine in and of himself, he is considered a prophet of high standing, born to a virgin named Mary, who delivered a revelation to the Jewish people.

    For many Muslims, especially those of the mystical, Sufi variety, Jesus is a close second only to Muhammad in terms of honor, and Jesus is believed to be the al-Masih (the Messiah) who will come again to usher in the end of times. He is popularly referred to as ruh allah, the Spirit of God.

    There’s a reason Muslims protested The Last Temptation of Christ when it was released and have protested revivals since — they really dig him.

    3. Most Muslims aren’t Arab.

    While you might know that Indonesia is, by population count, the largest Muslim nation, the next three are Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. Egypt rounds out the top five, but to consider Egyptians “Arab” is somewhat debated. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, has only the sixteenth largest Muslim population, behind countries such as Uzbekistan, Ethiopia, Turkey, and Iran.

    For what it’s worth, Saudi Arabia’s Muslim population is roughly equivalent to China’s. All of this should make us reconsider how we perceive not only Islam, but also the locus of its power and influence. While the Saudi government routinely casts itself as the protector and defender of the faith, they represent only a small fraction of the world’s Muslims.

    4. (I’m gonna catch some hell for this, but . . .) Islam is NOT a “religion of peace.”

    But wait! Neither is it a “religion of violence” or the heinous acts ISIS gins up hoping to generate YouTube views and goad the United States into war. While I laud former president George W. Bush for his helpful PR announcement following 9/11, it’s a conceptual error to think of a — indeed, any — religion as inherently peaceful or inherently barbaric. Instead, as is the case with any religious tradition, a vast majority of Muslim people are peace-loving, and there are a few really bad apples.

    Whenever someone makes an argument that a tradition is or is not a particular way, what you are really hearing is his or her own interpretation of the tradition. Clearly, there are other ways to think about the same faith, as human history too well illustrates.

    5. Analogously, “Islam” does not think, believe, teach, or command anything.

    This is another conceptual problem: there is no embodied “Islam” out there giving orders — just as there is no Buddhism or Daoism or Jainism giving conflicting advice. Religions are “things” only in an abstract academic or theological sense (what the great Wilfred Cantwell Smith calls the “reified” concept of religion).

    Rather, Muslims (and Buddhists, Daoists, and Jains) preach and cajole and recommend a great many things, and many of these things can be found — and debated — in the texts and traditions of “Islam,” but to speak of Islam as if it were an institutional voice echoing across the land is a fiction. There isn’t even a Pope of Islam who can claim to speak on behalf of a significant population. Furthermore, to treat Islam (et. al.) as such is to presume a kind of unified, homogeneous, and unchanging tradition, which is also simply untrue.

    6. Allah is NOT the name of the Muslim God.

    Let me break this down. Technically, Arabic has no capital letters, so the word is allah. Second al- is a prefix definite article meaning “the.” The root word lah just means “god.” Thus, al-lah translates simply to The God.

    “Allah” is the same word Arabic speaking Christians use to speak about God. From a Muslim point of view, the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims is all the same figure, just as the Christians like to believe their God is the same God of Judaism. It’s not as if “allah” is some other, competing divinity. Christians may not like Muslims laying claim to their divinity, but the Jews are (sigh, again) the truly aggrieved party here.

    7. “Islam” as a word means “to submit or surrender.”

    Stick with me through a bit of philology: Arabic works on a consonant system, usually in sets of three. Thus, the root word of Islam is “salaam” — meaning “peace” — with the root consonants of s, l, and m. The addition of the i changes the noun into a verb. The prefix mu means, essentially, “one who has,” so a muslim — noting the same consonant base — becomes “one who has surrendered.”

    The surrender or submission, in the context of this word, implies surrender to God’s will and word. Hopefully, this brings the adherent peace — both for herself and her neighbors — although what one does with that submission is always a matter of interpretation.

    8. Sharia ought not be a scary word.

    After all, it just means “legal reasoning” or “canonical law.” There are, at least, five classical schools of sharia (including the Shiite), and they differ radically in in their relationship to both sources of authority and interpretive methods.

    For example, the Qur’an enjoins one not to be drunk when you pray, not to get drunk, and not to drink fermented date wine. So, what of a cold beer? It likely won’t get you drunk, nor is it made from dates. Is it allowable? Sharia is the means by which this question gets answered, and those answers vary from no alcohol whatsoever to, quite literally, no date wine that leads to drunkenness. Across the Muslim world, you’ll find the whole spectrum of positions.

    And, just as with Catholics and birth control, you’ll find many Muslims who ignore the prescription regardless. Muslims are people, too.

    9. The Sunni/Shiite division is very old, and often overblown.

    It’s important to know that there are doctrinal divisions within the tradition, and that Sunnis (roughly meaning “consensus of the people”) and Shiites (the “party of Ali”) are the two main groups. There are numerous others, however, and even within one group there are further — perhaps innumerable — divisions. A Sunni Muslim in Detroit might approach his or her faith very differently from a Sunni in Morocco, who differs again from Sunnis in Beirut or Karachi, Paris or Capetown.

    The Sunni/Shia split revolves around a very basic question: Was the authority of Muhammad transferable by blood? For Sunnis, the answer is no, whereas for Shiites the answer is yes. Groups adhering to one position or another tended to segregate themselves geographically, but also along ethnic and cultural lines. Thus, Sunni Islam predominates in, for example, Egypt, while Shiites found safe haven in classical Persia. Countries like modern-day Iraq are borderlands in this division, while also including other sectarian distinctions (like the Alawites in Syria).

    So, yes, Saudi Arabia and Iran are mutually antagonistic, and perhaps religious difference plays a role. In some ways this is no different than long-standing tensions between Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians.

    But these tensions are not solely theological: Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are often at an impasse not because of the status of the prophet, but because each one is jockeying for geopolitical power.

    10. Muslims invented modern physics, mathematics, and medicine.

    Granted, I have a pretty expansive view of “modern” — I’m willing to go back to the thirteenth or fourteenth centuries. But consider that the great Ibn Sina (popularly known as Avicenna, 980­–1037CE) produced a medical text called The Canon of Medicine that was used as a standard reference work in Europe well into the seventeenth century. Or that the painting that adorns the top of the central reading room in the Jefferson Building of the Library of Congress associates Islam with physics, likely a nod to the contributions of al-Kindi, ibn al-Haytham, or al-Farabi, all important contributors to modern thinking about optics, physics, mechanics, and astronomy.

    Or, consider the numbers attending this list — written in Arabic Numerals — the invention of mathematical notation far superior to Latin numerals (though the idea for zero was likely stolen from India). By and large, if you’re counting, you have Muslims to thank for it.

    Plus, medieval Europe has the Muslim empire in Spain to thank for the transmission of Greek philosophy. Without that, Socrates and Aristotle might have been lost forever.

    This list could go on and on, but I might end with one last consideration: if we are willing to accept diversity within Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism, we need to do the same for Islam. Religion is intensely important to both group and individual identity, but the diversity of the human race reflects back on religious identity, changing and transforming how we understand our traditions. One might say that there are as many Islams as there are Muslims under the sun.

    #35421
    Cal
    Participant

    I’m approaching this from a non-religious perspective. I’m starting from a perspective that regards religion as a relic from our benighted ancient ancestors who didn’t know any better. So in order to be something that isn’t just dismissed as nonsense, there has to be something overwhelmingly admirable and noble about the prominent religious figures. That’s what I mean when I wonder about the redeeming qualities of Islam.

    In Christianity, Christ’s wisdom redeems all of the nonsense in Leviticus and Deuteronomy or wherever that stuff in the video comes from. Buddha, from what I understand, is also a truly admirable figure. It’s hard to use Christ or Buddha’s teachings and thoughts to justify murder.

    Mohammed is different. Again from what I understand, he did kill people or at least advocated killing others. That’s a game changer. There’s a monumental difference between a religion with a figure like Christ, who preaches peace and meekness, at the center and a religion like Islam with Mohammed, who preaches (Again, I think. If I’m wrong please correct me.)using violence–or at least used violence–to solve problems. One tradition leads to non-violent protest like we see with MLK; the other tradition leads to violent opposition like we see with bin Laden.

    Just because millions of people defend the religion doesn’t mean anything to me. Millions of Americans would argue that being able to own guns and assault rifles makes them safer and America safer. Despite the vast numbers of people who believe that, it’s still a stupid argument that should be dismissed as nonsense.

    None of the stuff you posted even comes close to answering the question I asked. Does Mohammed say anything close to what Christ says?

    In fact, the very first point the article makes is that trampling on the Quran is similar to trampling on Christ. So trampling on a book is the same as trampling on a person?? How crazy is that? That type of logic is supposed to show how Islam has an admirable moral center like Christianity when Christ says “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth”?

    Or Buddhism when Buddha teaches people to abandon their desires and cravings?

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Cal.
    #35425
    Cal
    Participant

    I do believe that all religions can be hijacked by maniacs. Islamic scholars make this claim in regard to ISIS. I heard one guy calling their interpretation of things “bizarre”. It is a death cult, an apocalyptic cult so maybe it’s unfair to judge all of Islam by that particular group. But clearly there are threads in the different schools that are disturbing.

    And yet–there are certainly peaceful Muslims.

    I know this doesn’t answer your question. I hope someone can answer it because I’d love to read about that.

    Well, I am glad someone else thinks it’s a good question, too. It’s a question that I think is too easily dismissed with the idea that Islam isn’t a religion of violence.

    I think that language is wrong or misleading. But with my limited knowledge, it seems like Islam can be poison for young people who have a tendency to take religion too seriously.

    I was raised Catholic and have never felt a moment of religious clarity or inspiration in my life. I come pretty close to hating church even though I take my kids there (not the Catholic version–I go to an Episcopal church that radically embraces diversity or something like that) But I know some people who absolutely love church and the experience of being there and could be there all day.

    For some of those people who love that experience, I wonder if Mohammed the warrior–or whatever the Quran or other holy books talk about–does lead them to become violent. And this is something that existed before ISIS and outside of people who are oppressed by the unjust socioeconomic structure that exists in some of these countries.

    Bin Laden didn’t come from poverty, did he? Wasn’t he part of the rich Saudi royals?

    So I wouldn’t call it a religion of violence, but it seems to be a religion that can breed violence and aggression because the central religious hero isn’t a Christ-like advocating non-violence, love, and self-lessness.

    And sure the vast majority of Muslims don’t follow Mohammed’s example and pick up the sword (gun). But the vast majority of Christians ignore Christ and will spend their last $50 dollars on completely unnecessary creature comforts instead of helping some poor, desperate soul.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Cal.
    #35436
    zn
    Moderator

    Just because millions of people defend the religion doesn’t mean anything to me.

    It’s not that millions defend it.

    It’s that it cannot possibly be the same thing to all people in the world. Going to a “source book” doesn’t answer that…there are as many ways to read that text as there are versions of islam. That’s true of any/every religious text—I have never in my life seen anyone “model themselves after Christ” and act humble and forgiving, for example.

    And also, millions probably understand it better than we do, also. Which is another part of the point.

    Us reading some things out of context and trying to draw conclusions from that, conclusions leading to generalizations about millions, is probably not going to be all the illuminating, especially at a time when the USA is just nutzoid with islamaphobia.

    Anyway the topic you raise (violence) is a complicated one. Various versions of islam throughout the centuries have debated it and come to completely different conclusions.

    This is a start:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence

    #35471
    PA Ram
    Participant

    I hope no one is offended by this but it’s just my opinion, of course.

    Religion is a crutch that most humans need or seem to believe they need. Humans want a God.

    The form that takes for individuals depends on many things but one of those things–by far the largest is where you are born. In other words–most of the time–your religion is handed to you by your parents or your country.

    In America–that form is Christianity.

    In Saudi Arabia–it’s Islam.

    No one in the world is born one or the other. You are fed it from a young age.

    So in terms of attraction–it’s a vehicle for you to get to God. You just happen to have the vehicle your parents gave you. How it runs, what’s under the hood–you’ll find out that stuff later–or you won’t really care. It runs–good enough.

    How many Christians have ever read the Bible? The video makes the point about people not really knowing what’s in there. And of course as you do gain knowledge you simply ignore the parts you don’t like, and highlight the ones you do.

    The Bible, for example–has a lot of weird crap in the OT. People don’t worry about clothes with mixed threads. They laugh at that old law. But that God is a warrior too, don’t forget–for HIS people. He kills or has people kill all in HIS name. Who can say that some future highly charismatic individual pulls that stuff out and creates a sect from it where Christians become radical? The text will never change. People will pick what they want and interpret things as they want to suit their particular needs.

    That’s religion.

    I often thought that if Jesus came down tomorrow and made a speech on all the networks, that five minutes later Fox news or MSNBC would be ripping him a new one. It would depend on if he said what they wanted to be said.

    I approach it more from trying to understand it on the flawed human level.

    If someone wants to find peace in the Koran–they will. If they want to find peace in the Bible, they will.

    It’s complicated and certainly the bigger problem may be the radical schools that exist in places like Saudi Arabia–where certain interpretations are pushed into someone’s brain from a young age.

    There is a push in this country to change history books–to teach religion in schools right next to science. What will that look like one hundred years from now? Is science shoved out the door in favor of the religious text? And what interpretation of the text gets pushed? What version? If America feels threatened it may be the warrior God type version and less the Jesus one.

    No one is immune to that.

    But maybe it’s a bigger question than just the text and attraction of it for a certain population. Religion is more complicated that that.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by PA Ram.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by PA Ram.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #35487
    wv
    Participant

    Anybody who knows their Christianity shouldn’t be too surprised that the Bible contains such vitriol. I know if somebody pulled that little stunt on me, my reaction when they did their grand reveal of the Bible would have been, “Ehhhh”.

    As a non-religious person, I’d like someone to explain to me what redeeming qualities Islam DOES have. I don’t call myself a Christian, but at least Christ says a lot of good stuff. You know, “Be as the lilies in the field,” “To Caesar what is Caesar’s; to God what is God’s,” “Turn the other cheek”. (Again, I’m no religious scholar, so maybe I got some of that stuff wrong. Please correct me if I did.)

    My question—and I think it’s a pretty damn good question—is, “Does Mohammed say anything like Christ says?”. From just a half an hour of reading about Mohammed on Wikipedia, he sounds like a fighter. He doesn’t sound anything like Christ or Buddha.

    And if Mohammed doesn’t say anything admirable like Christ or Buddha, I’d say secular people should say, “Yeah, Islam is a stupid religion”. (That should also be the reaction to Mormons.)
    I’m not saying Muslims should be put on some list or rounded up. But if there isn’t a substantial vein of noble and admirable teachings that redeem the Muslim religion, it should be seen as a ridiculous pursuit.

    When young people today tell me they smoke, I tell them “Why? That’s a waste of your money and health.” People should have a similar reaction to a religion that encourages violence.

    So if anyone can shed light on what the Islamic holy books say that is admirable, I’d like to hear it.

    ————————————
    Scribbling this real fast so dont hold me to it…

    Good to see you on the oddball-board, Cal.

    I dont really care for anyone’s Fairy-Tales either.
    I used to be much much more tolerant of religion
    but I’m pretty fed up with most of the Christianities AND
    most of the Islams. There’s a gazillion versions
    of each as you would expect with fairy tales. Some worse
    than others.

    But to get to Islam, sure M said some good Jesus-like stuff.
    There’s plenty of books out there on M. Karen Armstrong
    has a nice accessible one, but there are many.
    M was dealing with a different time, different cultures,
    different problems, etc, than Jesus was, so sure he said some
    things that were different from Jesus. But he was ahead of his
    time in a lot of ways, and did some good stuff. More ‘warrior-like’
    than Jesus? Yeah, probably but he was facing different problems…blah
    blah blah…

    If yer gonna have a Holy Fairy Tale, with a Holy Rule Book,
    there’s always gonna be humans who
    use it, twist it, interpret it, in an
    ugly way.

    If America had the “political history” of some
    of the middle east ‘nations’ i guarantee you,
    you would see similar actors and actions as
    you see from the Isis-folks…. blah blah blah

    I would like it if the high schools taught
    some stuff about Becker’s “Denial of Death”
    insights and his work describing humans
    “Immortality Projects” (see Wiki)….blah blah blah

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by wv.
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