The Garrett-Rudolph melee

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  • November 15, 2019 at 4:22 pm #108153
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I watched a bit of the sports commentary this morning, and the video replays — too many of them. I may have missed dissenting opinions, but it seemed all were in accord about who was at fault and who should be punished. None of that accord mentioned Rudolph.

    My own take is a bit different. Obviously, Garrett went over the line times a thousand. He literally could have killed Rudolph with that helmet. His action was unconscionable. Suspensions and fines are in order for him, as well as Pouncey and the Cleveland player (Ogunjobi) who pushed Rudolph from behind.

    However, I think Rudolph should be suspended and fined as well. To me, he may well have started the entire thing when he tried to rip off Garrett’s helmet, and it looks like he kicked him in the groin area when they were in the initial scrum. We also have no idea what was said between the two. But where Rudolph really goes wrong, IMO, is when he went back after Garrett, without his helmet on, while Garrett was being pushed and held by DeCastro and another Pittsburgh lineman.

    That made it, basically, three Pittsburgh players against one Brown (Garrett). If Rudolph had just stayed away, there is no helmet swinging down on his head. There’s just the usual tussle between opposing linemen, after the play — in this case, after the game.

    Again, Garrett’s action was unconscionable, indefensible and quite possibly criminal. But Rudolph’s actions were incredibly stupid and a provocation to continue the fight. This is one of those cases, in my view, where it’s not such a simple case of “good guy versus bad guy.” I see them both at fault overall, with Garrett’s action tipping the scale because of its obvious lethality.

    Sidenotes: DeCastro may have saved Rudolph’s life, and in a way, Garrett’s, by forcing a glancing blow instead of a full on hammer drop.
    It looked like the Pittsburgh guard had Garrett’s face mask in hand and was trying to drive him backward, and Garrett couldn’t freely complete the downward thrust.

    Also, another Pittsburgh lineman, #71, I think, accidentally smashed Rudolph’s head again when he was down after being pushed by Ogunjobi. I hope Rudolph gets outside medical assessments, and doesn’t rely on the NFL for any of that.

    November 15, 2019 at 4:37 pm #108155
    JackPMiller
    Participant

    https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2019/11/15/myles-garrett-mason-rudolph-helmet-brawl-fight-legal-issues/stories/201911150109

    Mason Rudolph’s legal team reviewing Myles Garrett incident
    Ray Fittipaldo
    Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
    rfittipaldo@post-gazette.com

    If Myles Garrett struck Mason Rudolph in the head with a football helmet at a bar in The Flats on Thursday night rather than inside First Energy Stadium, he would have landed in jail. Instead, the NFL came down hard on Garrett on Friday, suspending him indefinitely without pay — at a minimum, he will miss the rest of the regular season and postseason. For their role in a brawl that ensued after Garrett’s incident, Browns defensive lineman Larry Ogunjobi was also suspended one game and Steelers center Maurkice Pouncey was suspended three games.

    The Steelers and Browns were also each fined $250,000.

    In the waning moments of Thursday night’s 21-7 Steelers loss to the Browns, Garrett ripped the helmet off Rudolph and swung the helmet at the second-year quarterback, hitting him in the head. In the immediate aftermath, Rudolph did not appear to suffer any major injuries. He spoke to reporters about 30 minutes after the game ended. He called Garrett’s actions “pretty cowardly” and “bush league.” He also said he was “fine” when a reporter asked him how he was feeling after absorbing the helmet blow to the top of his head.Rudolph’s agent, Timothy Younger, said Friday morning via text that he is still gathering information on Thursday night’s incident before any decisions regarding legal or civil action on Rudolph’s behalf are made.

    Younger also tweeted the following: “There are many risks an NFL QB assumes every snap taken on the field. Being hit on your uncovered head by a helmet being swung by a 275-pound DE is not one of them. Tonight could have had a catastrophic ending. The matter will be reviewed thoroughly.”

    Tyler Sinclair, a public information officer with the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor’s office, said he was unaware of any investigation into the events that took place Thursday night. He said any investigation would initiate with the Cleveland police department.

    The NFL hadn’t seen an on-field incident as ugly or dangerous as Garrett’s act since 2006, when former Tennessee defensive lineman Albert Haynesworth stomped on the head of Dallas center Andre Gurode. Gurode needed 30 stitches to close the wound caused by Hayesworth’s cleats. He suffered blurry vision and headaches in the aftermath of the incident. Ultimately, he did not seek to press charges against Haynesworth.

    Haynesworth did receive the most severe suspension for on-field behavior in NFL history when he was suspended for five games, three more games than any other previous suspension for on-field behavior.

    Other professional sports also have dealt with dangerous in-game behavior. In 2004, the NBA and NHL had incidents that marred their seasons.

    There was the Malice in the Palace, the infamous on- and off-court brawl between the Detroit Pistons and Indiana Pacers. That resulted in Pacers player Ron Artest being suspended for the rest of the season. He missed a total of 86 games and forfeited nearly $5 million in salary.

    Other Pacers and Piston players received suspensions, too. Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O’Neal of the Pacers were suspended for 30 and 15 games, respectively. Seven other players received suspensions, as well.

    In addition, five Pacers players and five fans in attendance at the game were charged with misdemeanor assault and battery. Another fan was charged with a felony for throwing a chair.

    In March of the same year, NHL player Todd Bertuzzi of the Vancouver Canucks pleaded guilty to assault for punching Colorado player Steve Moore from behind and driving his face into the ice.

    Moore was hospitalized with fractured vertebrae, facial cuts, post-concussion symptoms and amnesia. Bertuzzi was suspended for the remainder of the season, a total of 20 games. His suspension lasted 17 months because the NHL had a lockout that canceled the entire 2004-05 season. He forfeited more than $500,000 in salary during the suspension and was required to perform 80 hours of community service and had one year’s probation.

    In February of 2000, Bruins player Marty McSorley slashed Canucks player Donald Brashear in the temple with his stick. McSorley was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. He avoided jail time, but he did serve 18 months probation. He never played in the NHL again.

    The NBA had another major incident in 1977 when Lakers player Kermit Washington sucker-punched Rockets player Rudy Tomjanovich. Washington was suspended for 26 games and fined $10,000. It was the longest suspension in NBA history at the time.

    The most infamous on-field incident in an MLB game occurred in 1965 when Giants pitcher Juan Marichal swung a baseball hat and struck Dodgers catcher Johnny Roseboro in the head.

    Marichal was suspended for eight days and fined $1,750. Roseboro later sued Marichal and received $7,500 in a civil suit.

    There was one other helmet swinging incident in an NFL game. In 2013, Texans defensive lineman Antonio Smith ripped off the helmet of Dolphins offensive lineman Richie Incognito and swung it at his head. He missed, but the NFL suspended him for the final two preseason games and the regular season opener.

    Ray Fittipaldo: rfittipaldo@post-gazette.com and Twitter @rayfitt1.

    November 15, 2019 at 5:58 pm #108158
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Here’s a buncha stuff from a tweets thread, it belongs here though.

    …

    Sam Monson@PFF_Sam
    Independent neurologist watched Rudolph get beaten over the head with his own helmet and had no problem with him going back out for the last snap?

    Louis Riddick@LRiddickESPN
    never seen any player ever act like that ever and I have played with/against some of the toughest SOB’s ever! That is the most trash BS I have ever seen. Myles Garrett hit another player ON TOP OF THE HEAD with a f’ing helmet!

    Michael Silver@MikeSilver
    OK, lots to unpack… Garrett’s gonna get suspended. And Pouncey seemingly kicked him in the head when he was down?

    Brooke Pryor@bepryor
    Pouncey says Garrett should be done for the year

    “Absolutely, absolutely- 100%. We’ll see how serious the NFL is about their players.”

    Adds he’s not worried about himself: “At this point, who cares? My man got hit in the head with a helmet. I’ll accept whatever penalty it is”

    ==

    —

    ==

    November 15, 2019 at 5:59 pm #108159
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    more.

    Adam Schefter@AdamSchefter
    Browns’ DE Myles Garrett suspended indefinitely, with a minimum of at least this regular season and playoffs.

    —

    November 15, 2019 at 6:39 pm #108168
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    ZN,

    Thanks for the additions.

    Good point about how crazy it was to let Rudolph back on the field, if that is what happened.

    The helmet to the head had to have meant a concussion of some kind, and then his own lineman kneed him in the head, accidentally, after he was pushed from behind. In slow-motion, that second hit looked really bad too.

    Again, I hope he gets serious medical attention, completely independent of any CYA by the NFL.

    What’s your take on my take that Rudolph is partially at fault in this mess too? Again, this is no way excuses what Garrett did. That was indefensible. But I think Rudolph’s actions escalated what could have been a far lesser tussle between teams. He should not have run back into the fray, especially without his helmet on.

    November 15, 2019 at 7:27 pm #108169
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    Billy_T wrote:

    What’s your take on my take that Rudolph is partially at fault in this mess too? Again, this is no way excuses what Garrett did. That was indefensible. But I think Rudolph’s actions escalated what could have been a far lesser tussle between teams. He should not have run back into the fray, especially without his helmet on.

    The Rudolph thing comes up over and over in twitter. Some argue that he’s equally blameworthy, but the majority consensus is that Rudolph just did stuff you can see in virtually any NFL game, while Garrett did something you RARELY if ever see in an NFL game (ranging across decades, tweeters have come up with just a couple of other examples of something like it). Why should Rudolph or anyone expect THAT level of escalation? What did Rudolph do to cause Garrett to escalate things THAT far?

    Think of Britt and Donald last year. That was bad, but also more typical of those kinds of things–it did not go anywhere near what Garrett did.

    Plus this is driven home by the fact that Browns players are openly very critical of what Garrett did, and very bluntly so.

    The discussion includes a lot of ex-players who live on twitter. They keep pointing out that a helmet is a 6 pound deadly weapon and the whole NFL is lucky there was no real serious injury (a fractured skull is possible–helmets are a hard shelled 6 pounts of weight).

    I am with that consensus.

    The consensus also is saying that Rudolph will be probably be fined, with is appropriate.

    Later I will post some of those tweets.

    November 15, 2019 at 7:45 pm #108171
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I don’t go on twitter, cept to click on links posted by others here and in other forums.

    So I haven’t followed the back and forth. But, as mentioned, I did watch a lot of the talk today, on shows like Get Up, which had more than a half dozen former players weigh in. None of them suggested Rudolph was in any way at fault.

    I derived my minor dissent from re-re-re-watching the video, and seeing the way the whole thing developed. No equivalence between their actions. None. Garrett could have killed Rudolph. Not just hurt him. But killed him. People watching the game could have witnessed an actual case of manslaughter, first hand. So there is no equivalency. But if we look at it with cold eyes, it’s just a fact of Cause and Effect that Rudolph’s running back into the fray, squaring up directly with Garrett, when he was already contained by DeCastro and another Pittsburgh lineman . . . . Well, I see that as escalation, totally unnecessary and pretty stupid.

    It doesn’t excuse Garrett’s reaction in the slightest. It. Was. Indefensible. But there is no hammer thrown if Rudolph doesn’t go after Garrett at that point. It’s just Garrett being forced backward by DeCastro and the other lineman.

    Anyway . . . that’s my two cents.

    November 15, 2019 at 7:59 pm #108172
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    zn wrote:

    Later I will post some of those tweets.

    Tom Schad@Tom_Schad
    The helmet-swinging incident was bad, but it could’ve been far worse.

    “The number one thing you’d worry about … is a skull fracture,” Dr. Robert Cantu told @usatodaysports. “And a skull fracture, and the associated brain trauma, could have killed him.”

    95.7 The Game@957thegame
    “A lot of people used to call me crazy… but I never ripped somebody’s helmet off and tried to swing it at his head.”

    Bill Romanowski talks with @BontaSteinyGuru about the Thursday Night Football fiasco

    Vincent Bonsignore@VinnyBonsignore
    I’m putting 99 percent blame on Myles. Mason engaged in some fisticuffs and should be penalized

    Will Brinson@WillBrinson
    People are hot and bothered about no punishment for Mason Rudolph.

    He’s a QB who got his own helmet mashed onto the top of his own head and could have had his dome caved in. Wasn’t going to happen.

    Geoff Schwartz@geoffschwartz
    There were two incidents. The first one between Rudolph and Garrett ended with Garrett having his helmet. Would have resulted in only fines. The second is Garrett hitting Rudolph with his helmet.

    Head over to the nearest sporting goods store and buy a helmet. Go to the nearest gym and find the strongest dude. Then stand there while he takes his best swing with that helmet at your head. Let me know if it’s a weapon or not afterwards.

    So again…you’re suspending Rudolph for getting hit in the head with his helmet. Because you wouldn’t suspend him for running over there if Garrett didn’t swing his helmet. You see how that looks right?

    ==

    November 15, 2019 at 9:59 pm #108176
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator
    Billy_T wrote:

    But if we look at it with cold eyes, it’s just a fact of Cause and Effect that Rudolph’s running back into the fray, squaring up directly with Garrett, when he was already contained by DeCastro and another Pittsburgh lineman . . . . Well, I see that as escalation, totally unnecessary and pretty stupid.

    I agree that was pretty stupid.

    November 16, 2019 at 12:57 am #108178
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    November 16, 2019 at 1:04 am #108179
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    the whole play

    …

    November 16, 2019 at 7:21 am #108182
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator
    zn wrote:
    Billy_T wrote:

    But if we look at it with cold eyes, it’s just a fact of Cause and Effect that Rudolph’s running back into the fray, squaring up directly with Garrett, when he was already contained by DeCastro and another Pittsburgh lineman . . . . Well, I see that as escalation, totally unnecessary and pretty stupid.

    I agree that was pretty stupid.

    you’re not the only one. guys on nfl network were saying rudolph was getting off way too lightly.

    although they said no doubt that there was no excuse for what garrett did.

    November 16, 2019 at 8:27 am #108183
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    InvaderRam wrote:
    zn wrote:
    Billy_T wrote:

    But if we look at it with cold eyes, it’s just a fact of Cause and Effect that Rudolph’s running back into the fray, squaring up directly with Garrett, when he was already contained by DeCastro and another Pittsburgh lineman . . . . Well, I see that as escalation, totally unnecessary and pretty stupid.

    I agree that was pretty stupid.

    you’re not the only one. guys on nfl network were saying rudolph was getting off way too lightly.

    although they said no doubt that there was no excuse for what garrett did.

    Well, that makes me feel a bit better.

    ;>)

    One way to consider this: Again, Rudolph went back into the fray, charged Garrett, who was already entangled with DeCastro and another lineman. That’s three on one. If Garrett had responded with a shove, or even a fist, would the conversation about “fault” be different in the aftermath? I think that’s a given.

    It was the severity — and potential lethality — of his reaction that altered the discussion. But he reacted TO the charge from Rudolph (indefensibly).

    Again, the counterfactual comes into play: If Rudolph goes back to his sideline, or even stands among his teammates, waiting for the refs to clean things up, and doesn’t charge Garrett, there is no escalation, no punching and kicking from Pouncey, no shoving of Rudolph from behind, no smashed head from his own lineman, etc. etc.

    It’s just linemen engaged in, ironically, what they had been doing all game long — pushing and pulling at each other in the trenches.

    I think it’s natural for people to want a certain kind of clarity in fights like this. They want someone to be at fault, and others to be innocent. Either/or, not both/and. In this case, I think it’s clear that Rudolph was at fault too. This in no way excuses Garrett’s response. But Rudolph actually restarted the battle with his own actions.

    I’d suspend and fine him too — and make absolutely certain he was medically okay.

    November 16, 2019 at 9:22 am #108184
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    yup. rudolph goes in a second time while garrett is engaged with decastro.

    still inexcusable. but it was a series of events that kept escalating.

    • This reply was modified 5 years ago by Avatar photoInvaderRam.
    November 16, 2019 at 9:48 am #108186
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Thanks, Invader,

    That was a good discussion. I agree with Jones and Carr, especially. Carr said what I was thinking too:

    Again, once the linemen are there, back off. Especially when you don’t have your helmet on. Let the refs (and coaches) take care of things. Garrett was going backwards, which means Rudolph had to charge him in order to get near enough to . . . do what? What did Rudolph think would happen when he charged a player already being pushed backwards by DeCastro . . . the only “hero” in this entire affair?

    What did he expect? Obviously, not an helmet to the head. Again, that’s unconscionable. But he had to have known it meant more fighting. A restarted fight. So, again, why isn’t Rudolph getting a suspension?

    I also didn’t like his comments to the media. Garrett owned up to his mistake. Rudolph just piled on, called him a coward, etc. etc. He needed to own up to his own part in the melee.

    In short, there is a lot of blame to go around, including Rudolph.

    November 16, 2019 at 11:00 am #108191
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Mason Rudolph will be fined for role in TNF brawl

    Kevin Patra

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001077016/article/mason-rudolph-will-be-fined-for-role-in-tnf-brawl

    Mason Rudolph will not avoid a penalty for his role in Thursday night’s brawl between the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cleveland Browns.

    NFL Network’s Tom Pelissero reported Friday that the Steelers’ QB will be fined by the NFL for actions on the field during the fracas, per a source informed of the situation.

    The amount of the fine is still to be determined, Pelissero added.

    It comes as no surprise that Rudolph would be punished in some fashion after the NFL handed down unprecedented penalties stemming from the brawl. The league suspended Browns DE Myles Garrett indefinitely for using Rudolph’s helmet to hit the QB in the head. Steelers center Maurkice Pouncey was suspended three games. Cleveland defensive tackle Larry Ogunjobi was suspended one game. All are subject to appeal. Both the Steelers and Browns were each also fined $250,000.

    The fight started after Garrett took down Rudolph after a short pass with eight seconds left in the game. On the ground, Rudolph then grabbed at the pass-rusher’s helmet, feeding the fire. With teammates coming over to break up the scuffle, Garrett ripped Rudolph’s helmet off as the two rose from the turf. As Steelers offensive linemen restrained Garrett, the hatless QB returned to the fray, where he was struck with his own helmet in the skull.

    Rudolph’s agent, Tim Younger, suggested late Thursday night in a tweet that the quarterback’s team could pursue legal action against Garrett for hitting Rudolph with a helmet, saying, “The matter will be reviewed thoroughly.”

    However, NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported Friday evening, per a source, that Rudolph won’t take legal action against Garrett, as he considers the incident “exclusively an NFL matter.”

    While the quarterback avoided a suspension, money will be taken out of Rudolph’s pocket for his role in the fight. Given the harsh punishments the league handed out Friday, the fine could be hefty.

    November 16, 2019 at 12:59 pm #108197
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I think Pouncey got a three game suspension. I’d have just given him a one game suspension.

    I know the NFL wanted to send a message to Garrett and all players, and they did, and I dont have a problem with it…but I’d probly have only given him three games plus some sorta probation.

    I’m old-school though. I saw worse than that glancing-blow, on a weekly basis back in the 70s. Deacon Jones once twisted and tore Sonny Jurgenson’s head off, and then beat the QB with the decapitated HEAD.

    And as I recall there was no fine at all.

    w
    v

    November 16, 2019 at 1:36 pm #108204
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant
    wv wrote:

    I’m old-school though. I saw worse than that glancing-blow, on a weekly basis back in the 70s. Deacon Jones once twisted and tore Sonny Jurgenson’s head off, and then beat the QB with the decapitated HEAD.

    And as I recall there was no fine at all.

    w
    v

    Thanks for the hearty chuckle, WV. That’s “old-school” WV posting.

    ;>)

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