starting a new thread w/ BT’s post on a Rodrigue podcast

[zn]

Billy_T wrote:

Listening (half way through) to Jourdan Rodrigue on another podcast, Bill Barnwell’s, I learned something kinda new, at least for me. This ties into the general BS that NFL teams feed us, but of a far less impactful variety than the injury front, etc. Though it’s tangentially related. Jourdan said that the Rams FO didn’t think (before the season) that they had any shot to repeat, though they thought they could compete for playoff spots. She basically said no one in the building thought they could win it all again. Tied to this is McVay’s acknowledgement that they weren’t “ready” for the season in several phases of the game, especially via staffing. That he’s “running out of people” to implement his core ideas — and those he’s incorporated like Calahan and Fangio. This was prior to all of those injuries. Jourdan is good here, and in her own podcast, of breaking down stuff about the way the Rams’ own model changed the entire league, even the draft and trade markets, but created a double-edged sword for them too. The league caught up, surpassed them in some areas, learned to deal with their D and their O, etc. And while she doesn’t exactly echo my thoughts about the negative aspects of trading all of those picks, she does at least suggest the lack of draft capital adds to the “falling behind.” The show in question: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/comparing-different-hells/id1105991757?i=1000594120803

[zn]

Comparing Different Hells

The Bill Barnwell Show

Bill is joined by The Athletic’s Jourdan Rodrigue to examine the latest on a very fluid situation with Sean McVay and the Los Angeles Rams. They discuss how things got to the point that McVay is considering leaving, what happened to the coaching staff after the Super Bowl, if the situation compromises the Rams’ offseason, why Jourdan thinks there’s no way he permanently retires right now and how the Rams could make a return more appealing to McVay.

.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/comparing-different-hells/id1105991757?i=1000594120803

[zn]

Rodrigue starts at 1:46 in.

BT has a summary but I am going to provide one too. I want to do it, I feel kind of energized to do it, but that aside, I always thought it was useful if more than one poster puts up a summary like this. I do weave some of my own ideas into this, but when I do that I say so–I am just trying to get what Rodrigue says out there.

She is btw hands down the best reporter the Rams have ever had, bar none.

This is all just Rodrigue. No one expected the season to be this bad and the dominant problem was the injuries. But also they weren’t satisfied with their coaching hires, which basically began late in the year because of the super bowl. In terms of the vacillation by McV, Rams always knew he would take a break at some point though they expected that to be after 2023. McV puts in too much time and effort and doesn’t know how to slow down. As a person he is very disappointed in himself. But the Rams are very high wire and they can’t operate at that level for too long, it burns out. Rodrigue won’t say it but when McV is stressed he may not be the kind of human being he wants to be. To draw the contrast Rodrigue compared him to old grandfather McVay, who always in all circumstances remained kind–and I thought that was a very telling moment. This is me now not Rodrigue but we saw how with Goff he could be a kind of dick. I hear Rodrigue saying McV sees himself as not being stable and grounded enough as an emotional human being–I suspect McV had some bad moments with coaches and players and staff. She is strongly hinting (the way I hear it) that McV hesitated about returning because he himself is trying to deal with having seen himself act that way.

Back to just Rodrigue. He was in a situation in 2022 where things were out of control. The injuries were major and devastating. He couldn’t delegate and didn’t have answers. Rodrigue resists unfair and reductive takes on the Rams. Rams didn’t see themselves as repeating in 2022. Missing a pass rusher for example. But they did expect things to keep going forward (a good 2022 followed by a great 2023). One pattern he saw with McV this year was that he was always struggling,  a bit, to work on his maturity and human tools, but he could always default into thinking about football instead. This year subtracted that, and it was entirely in ways that were beyond his own anyone’s control, and so there was no compensation to turn to when more basic human emotional issues came up. (Rodrigue once again mentions McV trying to process how he handled Goff in 2020).

She talks about how they were injured historically on the OL, she even calls it “insane.” But that caused other issues. He got so he decided he would hire a bunch of different coaches than he did.  He was probably embarassed by the fact that the Rams were not ready this year–at least not ready to enjoy historic success as a defending champ (me again: we saw that right away in game 1 against the Bills, they weren’t ready). They weren’t ready for how teams evolved to pick apart their defense. For the first time the Rams were behind conceptually. And a lot of that meant being behind on things that they themselves originated in the league. They weren’t prepared to stay ahead of football strategies they themselves helped create.

How about this coaching staff? Barnwell asks. They were kind of running out of people. He’s running out of OL coaches who have Bill Callahan principles. He’s running out of Fangio people. He started to hire people who were green who he thought he could mold to be an extension of his own thinking on the kinds of core things he wants to do. Samples, the RB coach, came up. Brown was moved out of the RB room and then the issues start and (Rodrigue strongly implies) Samples wasn’t up to it. The RB room imploded. Now they didn’t have a coach with the tools to solve that (they then moved Brown back to RB). A lot of this also had to do with the fact that because they went to the super bowl, the position coaches McV wanted weren’t there anymore.

Rodrigue thinks he also gets too bullish on guys he wants on the offensive side. Part of his thing with coordinators is to hire guys who balance out all the rough and tumble, roller coaster things McV gets on so he needs a steady “middle child” type to soften things with the players. Plus they had all sorts of ideas of what to do to expand the passing game, and then all that gets left behind if your OL has fallen completely apart.

Rodrigue is talking here before they knew McV would be back, but her answer to what happens if he is back is to say she thinks they put together another trade for another elite player at a big position.

Bits:

Von Miller left because they would not give a 3rd guaranteed year.

Snead is not a “rebuild guy,” he’s a build on the fly kind of guy. And he has a ruthless side to it. He’ll do things instantly, without sentiment.

Rodrigue always thought McV would be back. He was never going to move on from coaching.

 

 

[InvaderRam]

i wonder what happened with akers. she does allude to it a little bit according to that summary you provided. but i wonder what specifically mcvay’s role in it it was. and if mcvay was able to glean anything from his past relationship with goff when dealing with the akers situation.

 

i’m glad that mcvay is at least recognizing or at least seeming to recognize his deficiencies. it at least gives me hope that he’ll better manage himself going forward. help him manage his relationships. maybe even enough to last beyond 2023? he’s potentially the best thing to happen to this franchise since i’ve been following him. but only if he can bring the rams back a second time. i think it’s possible.

[Billy_T]

Good summary, ZN. And I agree about Jourdan. Best evah. She takes football analysis to a new level, and really, really knows the game. The stuff we grew up with, OTOH, with rare exceptions, was (and still is) pretty much a kinda refined bar-room banter. And too often on TV, it’s about the reporters themselves, not the game, really. Exceptions for me go way back. My favorite pair was Gifford and Summerall, before Gifford moved onto to MNF. They elevated the importance of each game for me. Took it all seriously, etc.

But most make it about them, not the players, coaches, league, etc. Jourdan makes it about the game, the schemes, the coaches, the players, in depth. Rams fans are lucky she’s covering this team.

Sidenote: I recently signed up for NYT digital, which includes The Athletic. Just $6.00 a month, on special. I tend not to go for any extras like that unless it’s a really good deal. I can live without it if it’s not.

;>)

[Billy_T]

InvaderRam wrote:

i wonder what happened with akers. she does allude to it a little bit according to that summary you provided. but i wonder what specifically mcvay’s role in it it was. and if mcvay was able to glean anything from his past relationship with goff when dealing with the akers situation. i’m glad that mcvay is at least recognizing or at least seeming to recognize his deficiencies. it at least gives me hope that he’ll better manage himself going forward. help him manage his relationships. maybe even enough to last beyond 2023? he’s potentially the best thing to happen to this franchise since i’ve been following him. but only if he can bring the rams back a second time. i think it’s possible.

Jourdan makes the case that Akers’ rebound is mostly on Thomas Brown, not McVay. Though I may be misreading/mishearing her on that topic, I don’t think I am. Of course, McVay made the change, so he gets credit for that. He realized that he had made a bit of a mistake putting Samples there. At just 27, he likely wasn’t ready yet. So Brown goes back to the Running Back room, and Akers plays like a new man.

Of course, Akers himself gets a ton of credit too. So, perhaps it’s mostly Brown, followed by Akers, with a big assist by McVay for recognizing his mistake. A bit too late in the season to matter, but it bodes well for 2023.

Regardless, boiled way down, I think McVay is growing up as a coach before our eyes. That’s always going to bring a lot of highs and lows, which also fits  the current ethos and vibe of the Rams right now, according to Jourdan and a few others with an ear in the building. As in, the Rams appear to dismiss any kind of Middle Path. They don’t want to be one of those teams stuck in the middle-winning range, neither here nor there. It’s playoffs or bust for them. They’re willing to risk the latter for the former.

IMO, it’s not really such a clear-cut either/or, and I disagree with some of their methods in the quest for staying on top. I don’t think, for instance, you have to give away the farm to stay there. If you draft well, demand more for the players you trade, improve your evaluations of players in-house, keep ascending players rather than letting so many of them go — that “next man up” ethos can backfire especially there — you can stay on top. Seattle, for instance, is in the playoffs after trading Wilson for the moon, and drafting exceptionally well. The surprising Lions are another example. They’ve turned their franchise around by hauling in a ton of draft picks and hitting on most of their picks.

Anyway . . . interesting times for the Rams. Roller coasters, etc.

 

 

[InvaderRam]

Billy_T wrote:

Of course, Akers himself gets a ton of credit too. So, perhaps it’s mostly Brown, followed by Akers, with a big assist by McVay for recognizing his mistake. A bit too late in the season to matter, but it bodes well for 2023.

 

yes. for sure akers deserves most of the credit. but when goff was traded i seem to remember mcvay saying something to the effect of not talking through or recognizing the problem early on? or maybe some lack of communication? i can’t remember. but i’m hoping there was some shift with the akers situation. or maybe it was brown. either way akers wasn’t traded and he had a resurgence.

 

i feel the one big mistake mcvay may have made was trading goff. that’s weird to say given what stafford has done and the superbowl. but i do think they could have accomplished a lot of things together. who knows what would have happened?

 

and if akers has been traded who knows what would have happened? but he did stay and he looked like a different man after that. of course. again. akers deserves most of the credit. but if mcvay and goff had somehow hashed things out preventing a trade to the lions. how would goff have responded the following season? we’ll never know.

[Billy_T]

InvaderRam wrote:

i feel the one big mistake mcvay may have made was trading goff. that’s weird to say given what stafford has done and the superbowl. but i do think they could have accomplished a lot of things together. who knows what would have happened?

and if akers has been traded who knows what would have happened? but he did stay and he looked like a different man after that. of course. again. akers deserves most of the credit. but if mcvay and goff had somehow hashed things out preventing a trade to the lions. how would goff have responded the following season? we’ll never know.

I agree with ya, and have mentioned that here before. I do think the Rams could have won it all with Goff. My guess is that McVay thinks so too, now. He didn’t then, obviously. But I’m guessing he does now. We will never know, of course. It’s one of them thar counterfactuals. But it makes sense to me, especially in light of how well Goff has played for the Lions this season.

Goff is also six years younger than Stafford, another big plus. And just imagine the additional talent the Rams could have brought on board if they hadn’t traded away all of those picks along with Goff. Those rookie contracts are also a major benefit for the Cap. I’d bet the Rams would have found their LT and Edge, at least, and they’d still be under team-friendly contracts, etc.

I wouldn’t have made the trade. Not just cuz I think they could win with Goff, but because the cost was absurd, IMO. They just gave up waaay too much.

[zn]

Goff and McV were not a good “marriage.” Goff did well with the Rams when he had his own dedicated qb coach. That was 2017 (Greg Olson) and 2018 (LaFleur). (Greg Olson is also responsible for Derek Carr playing well in the years he did–Olson left the Raiders in 2021, and Carr played well for him). In 2019 McV became the de facto qb coach. I think their relationship was based on McV’s impatience and the result was to weaken Goff’s confidence. What we saw in 2020 was Goff playing without confidence much of the time. In the best article on their divorce, a Rams coach is quoted as saying (anonymously) that McV knew how to tear Goff down but not how to build him up.

I think what we’re seeing in Detroit now is Goff playing with confidence, in a system that is specifically built to his strengths (and with a top notch OL).

I said all of this at the time of the trade btw but then I defended the trade. My take was, if the qb and the coach are not built for each other and the coach is winning, then, the qb will go. I don’t like the way they handled it (in fact they handled the entire trade very badly that way). But then Stafford was a better fit for McV. Stafford walked into the room demanding respect with his veteran smarts and longevity, so it was more of a case of coach and veteran qb collaborating than an impatient coach handling a young qb.

In a different way than Martz, McV is a mixed bag. He has all sorts of strengths as a coach, but they come with some pronounced liabilities. He may change, but at this stage, McV needs veterans in key positions to win. He’s not a patient team builder. By way of contrast DV was that and in fact did it twice, with the Eagles and Rams. McV inherited a team loaded with players like Gurley and Donald and Goff and did not need to “rebuild.” 6 years later there are still some pre-McV players starting for the Rams, including Donald, Higbee, and Hav.

[canadaram]

Appreciate the summaries BT and zn.

Wonder if they will make a change at secondary coach this off-season.

[InvaderRam]

zn wrote:

But then Stafford was a better fit for McV. Stafford walked into the room demanding respect with his veteran smarts and longevity, so it was more of a case of coach and veteran qb collaborating than an impatient coach handling a young qb.

 

partially true.  i’m not saying i disagree with that.  but i think other things also played a part.

 

mcvay i think had committed to a 3 wr approach at that point with gurley declining.  i don’t think it’s a coincidence that goff’s resurgence has coincided with a resurgence in the lions’ running game.

 

i do think that mcvay could eventually be that patient head coach.  well.  at least a more patient version compared to his 30 year old self.  i think his perspective changes dramatically when he is say 50 years old compared to a couple years ago.  or at least it’ll have to or i don’t think he lasts.

 

it’s kind of useless to argue because mcvay back then was obviously incapable of having the kind of  relationship with goff where goff could keep growing as a qb.  it could have just been personality.  it could have been the age difference or mcvay’s immaturity.   or maybe mcvay just needing to realize that deficiency in himself and having a qb coach.  maybe mcvay needs his right hand man.  like tony larussa had his dave duncan.  but that’s also part of growing as a leader.  cuz you hope mcvay wouldn’t make the same mistake at 50 years old that he did when he was 34.

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