Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › now that it’s over — the assessments (Snead, Klein, etc.)
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December 31, 2019 at 10:06 pm #109959znModerator
Rams GM Les Snead doesn’t regret record deals for Jared Goff, Todd Gurley
Lindsey Thiry
THOUSAND OAKS, Calif. — Los Angeles Rams general manager Les Snead says he does not regret signing Jared Goff and Todd Gurley to their record-breaking contracts.
“Those are human beings that gave a lot to this organization and deserve to be compensated,” Snead said Tuesday.
Snead met with reporters following a 9-7 season that resulted in third place in the NFC West and missing the playoffs a season after playing in Super Bowl LIII.
The Rams played inconsistently throughout the year on offense, defense and special teams. However, Goff and Gurley drew the most criticism because of their uneven play and the massive extensions that tie them to the Rams into the foreseeable future.
Before this season, Goff signed a four-year extension that includes an NFL-record $110 million in guarantees that keeps him with the team through 2024. Gurley signed a four-year deal that included a then-NFL record $45 million in guarantees before the 2018 season that keeps him with the Rams through 2023.
Snead pushed back on the perception that their contracts, along with defensive tackle Aaron Donald’s and receiver Brandin Cooks’, has left the Rams with little room to maneuver and improve their roster in 2020.
The Rams also are without a first-round pick in the 2020 and 2021 draft after sending both selections to the Jacksonville Jaguars in exchange for cornerback Jalen Ramsey, who will be looking for a record-breaking payday of his own as he enters the final season of his rookie contract.
“I do call it probably a false perception,” Snead said. “Ultimately, I can see why that would be a perception, but maybe there’s an element of staying a little too shallow.”
The Rams are projected to have a league-high $108.75 million in salary-cap charges allocated to its five highest-paid players, Goff, Donald, Gurley, Cooks and Ramsey.
It’s projected that the salary cap will increase from $188.2 million to about $200 million in 2020.
“From a salary-cap standpoint, and I assume the cap does go up, there’s a new collective bargaining agreement that’s coming that’s another variable that we don’t know about,” Snead said. “We’ve shown in the past that when you have commodities that you might could move on with via trade to collect draft capital that maybe the perception says you don’t have and to clear cap space.”
Snead declined to say if any of his players, including Gurley, were available to trade.
Gurley powered the Rams’ offense in Sean McVay’s first two seasons as coach, as he rushed for more than 1,200 yards in back-to-back seasons and last season scored a league-best 21 touchdowns.
But this season, amid reports that he’s suffering from a degenerative knee condition or arthritis, he rushed for a career-low 857 yards and 12 touchdowns on 223 carries. His touches dropped from an average of 22.5 per game in 2018 to 16.9 this season.
McVay throughout the season denied that Gurley was on a load management program.
Snead pointed to the general state of the run game, an evolving offensive line, and opponent’s game plans as reasons for Gurley’s decline.
“We didn’t run the ball this year as well as we have,” Snead said. “We definitely want to get back to being more efficient running the football.”
When asked if Gurley was the same running back that he’d proven to be in the past, Snead said, “This year, he wasn’t.”
Last season, Goff demonstrated significant progress in his development as he passed for 32 touchdowns, with 12 interceptions, and led the Rams to an NFC championship and Super Bowl.
But this season, he took an apparent step back as the offense relied more on his arm than the legs of Gurley. Goff passed for 4,638 yards and 22 touchdowns, with 16 interceptions. His total QBR, 48.3,ranked him 23rd in the league, between the Chargers’ Philip Rivers and the Bills’ Josh Allen.
December 31, 2019 at 11:02 pm #109961znModeratorRams will need a new formula to get back to playoffs
Gary Klein
https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/story/2019-12-31/rams-need-new-formula-to-get-back-to-playoffs
There is little or no upside for NFL teams with high expectations that miss the playoffs.
If nothing else, the Rams’ disappointing 9-7 finish affords general manager Les Snead and coach Sean McVay plenty of time to assess staff and personnel. To plot possible trades, ponder free agency and prepare for the draft as they look toward the 2020 season.
It’s an unfamiliar time element in the three-year McVay era.
The Rams played through the wild-card round in 2017. Last season, they advanced to the Super Bowl, a notable achievement but one that left them with an abbreviated period to prepare for a season that found them floundering in the malaise that has afflicted so many teams the year after losing the championship game.
The Rams seemingly don’t have much room to maneuver.
With quarterback Jared Goff playing under a rookie contract the last four seasons, Snead used bold moves and salary-cap expert Tony Pastoors utilized creativity to build a star-studded roster that made a Super Bowl run. But now, with Goff, running back Todd Gurley, receiver Brandin Cooks and defensive lineman Aaron Donald playing on massive extensions — and cornerback Jalen Ramsey in line for a record-breaking deal — it’s a different challenge.
“I would rather be where we’re at now than trying to get here,” Snead said Monday during an hourlong interview with reporters. “Because trying to get here, you don’t know if you can get here … But it’s a different formula.”
One that, once again, does not include a first-round draft pick.
The Rams have not picked in the first round since trading up to choose Goff No. 1 overall in 2016. In October, they dealt their 2020 and 2021 first-round picks to the Jacksonville Jaguars to acquire Ramsey.
So, the Rams must figure out ways to reshape a roster that can attract fans to new SoFi Stadium and return the team to the playoffs.
“What we’ll do over the next week or two, is take a step back, definitely let the emotions, the disappointing emotions, the negative emotions of it all, dissipate so you can at that point try to make sound decisions and continue the effort to contend,” Snead said.
McVay, 33, has lamented that his team did not play up to the standard that was established during his first two seasons. Asked Monday if major changes were necessary, he said he would never use the word major.
“This is something that is not as simple as just one thing here, one thing there,” he said.
Donald signed a then-record $135-million extension before the 2018 season. Goff signed a $134-million extension, with a record $110 million guaranteed, before this season. Snead described Goff and Donald as “anchor pieces.” Asked if any other player was off the table in regard to possible trades, Snead sidestepped.
“I don’t want to get into that and who is on the table or not because it can be misconstrued in many ways,” he said. “At this point, I’d rather go, ‘Hey, let me and our staff sit together and try to come up with the best plan on that.’”
Gurley, sidelined and slowed late last season because of a left-knee issue, rushed for a career-low 857 yards this season as McVay initially attempted to rotate Malcolm Brown and rookie Darrell Henderson into the mix. Asked if Gurley was the same running back, Snead said, “This year he wasn’t. Again, in terms of stats.”
Gurley also struggled to break off long runs after getting through the line of scrimmage.
“That’s a fact,” Snead said, later adding, “It’s a combination of what we have going on, what we need to fix and also give the enemy credit in trying to take Gurley away.
“I would say that’s probably one of the hardest pieces to acquire in this equation,” Snead said.
Littleton, the team’s leading tackler, and Fowler, who had a career-best 11 1/2 sacks, have said they would like to stay with the Rams. Both are expected to test the market.
Littleton earned nearly $3.1 million this season. He no doubt will seek a contract on par with the four-year, $54-million deal — with nearly $28 million in guarantees — that Carolina Panthers linebacker Shaq Thompson signed in December. Fowler earned $12 million this season on a one-year contract.
Snead said Littleton and Fowler both deserved raises, but echoing McVay, he said, “Unfortunately we can’t pay everybody.”
Zuerlein made 24 of 33 field-goal attempts this season. He missed a potential game-winning 44-yard attempt with less than 30 seconds left against the Seattle Seahawks. Zuerlein, punter/holder Johnny Hekker and long-snapper Jake McQuaide have been together since 2012.
“We want to get more consistent in the kicking game than we were this year,” Snead said.
December 31, 2019 at 11:51 pm #109968InvaderRamModeratorif they can bring back littleton, i think it’s worth it. i would not bring fowler back.
they need to upgrade on brockers. they need edge rushers. i don’t think it’s possible to do it in one offseason.
January 1, 2020 at 1:04 am #109971znModeratorRams have only one option left with Todd Gurley: Trade him
BILL PLASCHKE
https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/story/2019-12-31/rams-todd-gurley-trade-2020-roster-changes
They tried resting him, and it didn’t work.
They tried running him, and it didn’t work.
The Rams exhausted seemingly every option this season in attempting to operate their offense through Todd Gurley, yet his sore and slowing legs could not carry them past mediocrity.
The inconsistency of his usage was a constant distraction. His production didn’t warrant the team jumping through hoops. In the end, slowed further by a makeshift offensive line, the hero actually became a hindrance, forcing the Rams into an unsettling limbo while waiting for the burst that rarely came.
They enter this offseason desperately needing to revitalize a scoring attack that precipitously fell from 12th in NFL history to 11th in the league, meaning there’s only one thing left to do with their declining star.
.
The Rams need to trade Todd Gurley.It is not going to be easy. It’s not going to be pretty. They won’t reap a huge return.
Another team will have to agree to assume a chunk of the $60-million contract extension Gurley signed two summers ago. That narrows the field.
Another team will have to believe that Gurley, even if he passes the requisite physical, can overcome the restrictions caused by his arthritic left knee. That narrows the field even further.
Gurley would be a nice fit for a playoff club looking for a specialty complementary backfield piece who still can throw out a stiff arm and carry a tackler a couple of yards into the end zone.
There are not many of those teams. The Rams need to find one. This will be a tough sell. The Rams need to sell it hard. This might take some time. The Rams need to do it before next season.
They cannot endure another autumn of Waiting For Todd, Hoping For Todd, Testing Out Todd, Talking About Todd … then looking up one day to see Gurley ranks 37th in the league at 3.8 yards per carry and they’re out of the playoffs.
They can’t play another game after which coach Sean McVay calls himself an idiot for not running Gurley, and Gurley doesn’t disagree with him. Yet the real idiots were those of us who thought this odd arrangement could work. It couldn’t. It didn’t.
The load-management stuff turned out to be a load of you-know-what. When they finally unleashed Gurley in the final seven games of the season, they went 4-3. In their two biggest games during that stretch, against the Dallas Cowboys and San Francisco 49ers, he accounted for 86 total yards on 29 touches.
Two seasons after being named NFL offensive player of the year, one season after leading the league in rushing touchdowns, Gurley finished this season as the league’s 20th ranked running back, failing to gain 100 yards in any game.
During his annual postseason interview session Tuesday, I asked Rams general manager Les Snead if Gurley was the same running back as in the past.
“This year he wasn’t,” Snead acknowledged.
He later clarified his statement to note that Gurley’s performance was vulnerable to many factors, including an injury-riddled offensive line and defenses that focused on him.
“If a runner doesn’t have space early in the down … to accelerate … maybe there was less room this year,” Snead said. “You felt that as you juggled the O-line, as teams adjusted to try to stop the run.”
Snead also noted that just because Gurley gained only 857 yards — nearly 500 yards fewer than his peak season in 2017, with nearly one yard fewer per carry — doesn’t mean his greatness is finished.
“I think we’ve seen players have years that were less than the past come back and actually get back to where they were,” he said.
But Snead’s initial point was valid. Gurley was not Gurley. Can the Rams really afford to take the chance that he will ever be Gurley again?
The answer is no. The Rams can’t afford to be content with 9-7. They can’t afford the sort of inertia that will drive away their hard-won fans, not now.
They are moving into a new stadium. Their two cornerstone players — Aaron Donald and Jared Goff — are moving into the primes of their career. They have a roster still loaded with players just one year from appearing in the Super Bowl. They’re in a suddenly strong division where simply a winning record will not guarantee the playoffs.
January 1, 2020 at 1:12 pm #109990ZooeyModeratorOne of my takeaways from the season: Todd is done as a gamebreaker. He’s a good running back, but he has lost his burst. He is not elite anymore. He is a good, but complementary player, getting paid now like he is The Guy Who Drives the Offense. He’s not that guy any longer, and I don’t know what they do about that.
Biggest Disappointment: My first thought would be OL here, but injuries were really the main story here, and there are promising signs on the young’uns. Then there is the regression of Goff. But that’s part OL, part adjustments made by defenses around the league that he needs to grow to recognize. So…I’m calling Henderson the biggest disappointment of the season. He just never happened. And RB is a position where rookies can often splash. No splash. Barely a ripple.
Biggest Appointment (what’s the opposite of disappointment?): Higbee. Cool. Go Higbee. Honorable Mention here is Cooper Kupp who came back unbelievably early from that knee injury.
January 1, 2020 at 1:35 pm #109992AgamemnonParticipantJanuary 1, 2020 at 4:21 pm #109997InvaderRamModeratori don’t think there’s any way they can trade gurley. who’s gonna take on that salary? their best bet might be trading cooks.
either way i draft a running back this year if i’m the rams. not too impressed by henderson.
January 1, 2020 at 11:25 pm #110021znModeratorDeadpool
I thought I would do a preview of what the Rams have on the roster and lose on the roster as they head into the offseason.
QBs:
Under contract for 2020:
Jared Goff – Cap hit 36m – if cut 51m cap hitFA:
Blake BortlesPositional review: I thought it was an up and down year for Goff, he can play better and he said as much. With that said, he didn’t get a ton of help from his OL and not much in the run game. If the OL improves and the Rams can get a run game going I think he can be a very good QB. I don’t think he will ever be great. And that is fine because there are very few very good QBs in the world. I fully expect him to restructure his contract, as it was expected after he signed it. Bortles might look for greener pastures, with a chance to start somewhere and I don’t expect him back. Wolford should be the backup next year.
Free agency & draft priority: low
I cannot imagine the Rams spending much if any money on a FA QB unless they bring back Bortles on the cheap. My guess is Wolford gets every shot to become the backup. A late day 3 pick on a QB is not out of the question, or an Undrafted Free Agent. One name I keep coming back to late is Jalen Hurts. I know there are Oklahoma fans on this board that will scream at me for this, but Hurts is a developmental type that isn’t good at reading a defense and has accuracy issues. He is a leader, tough and a high character guy you want on your team, so if he’s available middle of day 3, I’m taking a flyer on him, thinking maybe McVay can develop him.RBs:
Under contract for 2020:
Todd Gurley – Cap hit 17.25m – if cut 25.65 cap hit – if traded 12.6m cap hit
Malcolm Brown – Cap hit 1.14m – if cut .05m cap hit
Darrell Henderson – Cap hit 0.96mPositional Review:
It was a disappointing season for Gurley, he was seemingly frustrated by his usage and never really found his groove early in the year, only to see his usage increase and have some success in the 2nd half. He just doesn’t look like the same back as he did in early 2018. He lacks that explosive take off, sudden cutting and really is no longer a HR threat. On top of that, his hands were horrible this year even by his standard as he dropped a ton of balls. Brown is what he is, a between the tackles, tough yardage back with little in the way of pass catching skills. Henderson’s season was disappointing to say the least. Just couldn’t get on the field and I suspect he didn’t pick up the playbook and his pass blocking was subpar. he is going to have to really step his game up in 2020 or he could get buried on the depth chart.Free agency & draft priority: medium
This all really hinges on Gurley and how they proceed with him and his contract. I’m not going to talk about if they should or shouldn’t have given him the contract because what is done is done. I will talk about what can be done.you really have 4 options: trade, cut, restructure or status quo.
Trade: I’m not sure he could pass a physical with another team but lets say he does. He’d save 4.6m in cap space. I just cannot see a team trading for him, unless they are buying draft picks to take on salary. And IMO the Rams cannot afford to give away picks to just dump Gurley.
Cut: again, I don’t see it happening because it would cost more to cut then it would to keep him, by over 8m. Its not happening.
Restructure: Nope, not happening because restructures always turn non-guaranteed money into guaranteed money and he isn’t getting any more guaranteed money IMO
Status Quo: You go into 2020 with his cap number in place, you see if another off season of management helps and you bite the bullet knowing you have Brown and a 2nd year Henderson to back him up.I doubt any moves are made as far as FAs. The Draft is a totally different animal. Its a good place to find young, cheap talent that is usually pretty deep. If the Rams do draft a RB in rounds 2 or 3, I think 1 of 2 things happened, Gurley was traded somehow or will be cut post June 1st, or they have absolutely no faith that Henderson will work out. That would be hard to imagine a front office doing after 1 year with a rookie. If they don’t draft a RB early, they are fine with their 3 backs and I doubt you see one picked before the UDFA signings.
Guys that could be in play for the Rams as early as round 2: Jonathan Taylor, JK Dobbins, D’andre Swift, Travis Etienne and Chuba Hubbard. Now some of these guys will be gone, but if the Rams really feel the need for a true #1 back, these guys fit the bill.
OL
Under contract for 2020:
Bobby Evans – cap hit 0.85m
David Edwards – cap hit 0.65m
Joe Noteboom – cap hit 0.92m
Austin Corbett – cap hit 1.16m – if cut 0.83m cap hit
Brian Allen – cap hit 0.83m – if cut 0.34m cap hit
Chandler Brewer – cap hit 0.59m – if cut no dead money
Jamil Demby – cap hit 0.66m cap hit – if cut no dead money
Rob Havenstein – cap hit 7.8m – if cut 6.2m cap hit – if traded 2.4m cap hitFree Agents:
Andrew Whitworth – UFA (he can meet and sign with any team)
Austin Blythe – UFA (he can meet and sign with any team)
Coleman Shelton – ERFA (If Rams offer him any kind of contract he is under their control for that amount for at least 1 more year)Positional review:
To say the oline had a rough year is an understatement. Although they were low on the list of sacks allowed, they gave up too much pressure, little room to run and way too many penalties. And I’m not sure what to make of the penalties, but I know not enough was made of it this year, at least not on this board as far as I know. Whitworth was the 3rd most penalized OL this year with 13. Was some of that covering for a new LG? Maybe, but he regressed, by more then a little. Havs had 8 penalties in 8 games. LOL. He looked slow, his feet looked heavier then usual and was ineffective. And he had his RG from last year, so his excuse was what? Oh and Edwards, for as much as I like the kid, had 7 in half a season, but none after week 13. Allen was overmatched at OC, Blythe was overmatched at RG, but looked better at OC and Noteboom was slowly coming along before he got hurt. Corbett was the weak link once he was installed at LG, as I thought Edwards and Evans did a nice job of solidifying the right side.Free agency & draft priority: med/high
This thing all hinges on 2 guys: Whitworth and Havenstein. The Rams said they would sit down with Whitworth and discuss his future. That tells me a couple of things. 1. They respect him enough not to lowball him in FA and embarrass him. 2. They are probably getting a feel for if he would be open to really mentoring his replacement. If Whit gets a deal, I think its probably team friendly, maybe incentive based if thats possible with a OT, and 1 year only. Personally I would like to see him back for 1 more year. I’m scared of Noteboom at LT next year, and not sure Evans is ready to be a LT in the NFL.
As far as Havenstein goes, I’m a bit biased since I never liked the pick. he just doesn’t fit what the Rams are doing from a scheme standpoint and he was ineffective on top of that. But they paid him and now are stuck with him. let me be perfectly clear on this statement: NO ONE is trading for an overpaid, underperforming RT that was a penalty machine and is coming off injury. I would think the only way a trade would work is if the Rams trade him and a say a 4th for a 7th round pick. I really think the Rams are stuck with him for 1 more year. Thank goodness he is their only high paid OL on the roster.
Blythe is almost certainly gone, I just don’t see him as in their plans esp. as a RG. Maybe at OC. Demby is almost certainly a cap casualty, and probably Brewer at some point.
Assuming Whit comes back for 1 year: you have Whit LT, Evans/Noteboom LG – Allen OC – Edwards RG – Havs/Evans RT. IF Whit doesn’t come back its Note/Evans LT – Note/Evans/Corbett LG – Allen OC – Edwards RG – Havs RT
As far as FA replacements, I’d look for cheap middle of the road guys. I see no scenario where Scherff gets 12.5m from the Rams.to play LG. Xavier Sua’filo, Joe Haeg would be names that make more sense in FA at OG. OC is thin and LT is even thinner.
In the draft, I’d look long and hard at 1 of the top 2 centers, Tyler Biadasz from Wisconsin (had an up and down bowl game against Oregon) and Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma. 1 of the 2 might be available. Both fit and both are bigger and stronger then anything on the Rams roster. i’d also look at a middle of the draft LG like Ben Bredeson from Mich. Has played in power man and outside zone and handled his business today against Alabama. Won’t wow you but he wins and plays with an edge. He easily available on early day 3. Scott Frantz from Kansas St is my day 3 LT prospect I like this year.
TEs:
Under contract for 2020:
Tyler Higbee – cap hit 8.63m – if cut 8.43m cap hit
Gerald Everett – cap hit 1.92m – if cut 0.63m cap hitFree Agents:
Kendall Blanton – ERFA (If Rams offer him any kind of contract he is under their control for that amount for at least 1 more year)
Johnny Mundt – ERFA (If Rams offer him any kind of contract he is under their control for that amount for at least 1 more year)Positional review: Mixed bag from the TEs this year. Everett was dinged late and Higbee emerged in the 2nd half of the season to be considered an actual threat that has to be accounted for. Mundt worked as a blocker and Blanton is depth. I think the Rams like what they have at TE for the time being but I thought we would see a big step up for Everett, but instead it was Higbee. They could make a nice 1 – 2 punch in 2020, if the Rams contunue with 2 TE sets.
Free agency & draft priority: low
With Higbee’s contract and Everett’s age, I just don’t see a FA TE coming on board unless its someone on a very cheap deal for a year. One name to keep an eye on is Jordan Reed, lots of concussions, 29 years old and a new coaching staff add up to him getting cut, saving the skins 9m with no dead money. He could be re-united with McVay and protected by being a part time player for cheap.I don’t see anything happening with a TE in the draft unless they want to take a flyer on a guy in the 7th round, or they don’t keep Mundt or Blanton. Decent depth in this draft so a late flyer or UDFA makes some sense.
WRs:
Under contract for 2020:
Brandin Cooks – cap hit 16.8m – if cut 21.8m cap hit – if traded 17.8m cap hit
Robert Woods – cap hit 9.18m – if cut 4.35m cap hit
Cooper Kupp – cap hit 1.2m – if cut LOL
Josh Reynolds – 0.9m cap hit – if cut 0.16m cap hitFree agents:
Jojo Natson – RFA (restricted FA, Rams can tender at 1st, 2nd or original draft round and receive that rounds pick form the team that signs him)
Mike Thomas – UFA (unrestricted free agent, can talk and sign with anyone)
Nsimba Webster – ERFA (If Rams offer him any kind of contract he is under their control for that amount for at least 1 more year)Positional review: Woods and Kupp had phenomenal seasons, both eclipsing 1000 yards. Kupp returned to being Kupp and played well despite having DCs try and scheme him out. Cooks had 2 concussions and was really ineffective after coming back. Reynolds was OK as a sub for Cooks and Natson and Thomas were ST contributors. And that is it.
Free agency & draft priority: medium
Much like the RBs with Gurley, the WR offseason activity all starts and ends with Cooks. His concussions are worrisome for 2 reasons. 1st, his health, he is a young man and he has 4 concussions and these last 2 were not caused by heavy hits. And 2, there is a saying in the NFL: the best ability is availability. And he wasn’t available. So what can you do with him, I doubt he gets cut, its cheaper to keep him, I cannot imagine he gets re-structured either due to the concussions and adding more guaranteed money. So IMO he either gets traded or is kept for 1 more year as the Rams take their medicine,same as Gurley. If he is traded, the Rams are selling low.Beyond that, it should be interesting to see if there is any interest from any teams (including the Rams) on Thomas, who has been a ST standout that offers nothing in the form of offense. I imagine he is worth more to the Rams then anyone else, so I could see him returning, if not, its ok. I would love to see a returner upgrade off of Natson since I just don’t trust his judgement or decision making skills. Beyond that, I don’t see any action form the Rams in FA on a WR.
As far as the draft goes, I would love to see a WR drafted in the middle somewhere. So much speed and size. And it is a deep class. IMO you are doing yourself a disservice if you don’t draft one.A guy that would be absolutely dynamic on the Rams would by KJ Hill from Ohio State. Another under-rated WR with some size is Denzel Mims. Pittman jr. from USC is had a great year and could be a middle round guy. Quentez Cephus is going to be an interesting prospect as he was found not guilty of sexual assault so background checks will be important, but he is a fit. Ruggs or Smith if they slide are speed guys the Rams could use from Alabama, can’t imagine they are around int he 3rd.
January 2, 2020 at 8:28 am #110027wvParticipantRams have only one option left with Todd Gurley: Trade him
BILL PLASCHKE
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Well that seems like the most idiotic article I’ve seen in a while.
Who the hell is going to trade for a running back with arthritic knees?
w
vJanuary 2, 2020 at 12:30 pm #110030znModeratorRams have only one option left with Todd Gurley: Trade him
BILL PLASCHKE
————————
Well that seems like the most idiotic article I’ve seen in a while.
Who the hell is going to trade for a running back with arthritic knees?
w
vYeah good point. But, off topic a bit, believe it or not there are many who do not accept or believe or whatever that the knee is arthritic.
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