Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Sanders: Not supporting Biden is irresponsible
- This topic has 55 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by wv.
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April 14, 2020 at 8:32 pm #113648waterfieldParticipant
Bernie Sanders says opposing Joe Biden is ‘irresponsible’
https://apnews.com/a1bfb62e37fe34e09ff123a58a1329fa
Bernie Sanders said Tuesday that it would be “irresponsible” for his loyalists not to support Joe Biden, warning that progressives who “sit on their hands” in the months ahead would simply enable President Trump’s reelection.
And lest there be any question, the 78-year-old Vermont senator confirmed that “it’s probably a very fair assumption” that he would not run for president again. He added, with a laugh: “One can’t predict the future.”
Sanders, who suspended his presidential bid last week, spoke at length during an interview with the Associated Press about his decision to endorse Biden, his political future and the urgent need to unify the Democratic Party. He railed against the Republican president but also offered pointed criticism at his own supporters who have so far resisted his vow to do whatever it takes to help Biden win the presidency.
He seemed to distance himself from his campaign’s former national press secretary, Briahna Joy Gray, when asked about her recent statement on social media refusing to endorse Biden.
“She is my former press secretary — not on the payroll,” Sanders noted. A spokesman later clarified that all campaign staffers were no longer on the payroll as of Tuesday, though they will get a severance check in May.
Sanders said his supporters have a simple choice now that Biden has emerged as the presumptive nominee: “Do we be as active as we can in electing Joe Biden and doing everything we can to move Joe and his campaign in a more progressive direction? Or do we choose to sit it out and allow the most dangerous president in modern American history to get reelected?”
He continued: “I believe that it’s irresponsible for anybody to say, ‘Well, I disagree with Joe Biden — I disagree with Joe Biden! — and therefore I’m not going to be involved.’”
Sanders said he would not actively campaign or spend money on advertising in the primary contests that are still on the calendar in the coming months. But he still encouraged Democrats in those states to vote for him, hoping to amass as many delegates as possible for leverage to shape the party platform and the direction of Biden’s campaign.
He also vowed to continue fighting for progressive priorities such as his signature “Medicare for all” as a senator, even though Biden has refused to embrace the government-backed single-payer healthcare system.
“If people want to vote for me, we’d appreciate it,” Sanders said of the roughly 20 primary contests that remain where his name will appear on the ballot. He later added, “I think you’re going to see significant movement on the part of the Biden campaign into a more progressive direction on a whole lot of issues.”
Sanders did not outline any specific plans to begin helping Biden in earnest, though he noted that he held dozens of rallies for former Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton four years ago and would be at least as active for Biden. In the short term, he said, he’s essentially “incarcerated” in his home because of coronavirus social distancing guidelines and did not know when he would return to the campaign trail.
Sanders brushed away questions about why he was willing to back Biden so much sooner than he did Clinton, whom he did not endorse until June 2016. He said recent conversations with former President Obama did not influence his decision. It came down to simple math, he said.
In 2016, Sanders said, he had a mathematical path to the nomination all the way until the California primary, which was held on the last day of voting in June. That simply wasn’t the case this year.
“What would be the sense of staying in, of spending a whole lot of money, of attacking the vice president, giving fodder for Trump — what’s the sense of doing that when you can’t win?” he asked.
“I will do everything I can to help elect Joe,” Sanders continued. “We had a contentious campaign. We disagree on issues. But my job now is to not only rally my supporters, but to do everything I can to bring the party together to see that [Trump] is not elected president.”
- This topic was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by zn.
April 15, 2020 at 8:47 am #113658wvParticipantWell its an old, old, question for Leftists. The far-left has wrestled with this election after election after election for over a hundred years.
To vote for the lesser-evil, or Not.
Repeat of 2016.
w
vApril 15, 2020 at 10:23 am #113669znModeratorApril 15, 2020 at 1:25 pm #113679waterfieldParticipantTo vote for the lesser-evil, or Not.
It’s interesting that in the progressive mindset-if your not a progressive you must be “evil”.
April 15, 2020 at 1:38 pm #113682waterfieldParticipantI, as a moderate, have never once thought of Sanders as “evil”. But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
April 15, 2020 at 3:18 pm #113686znModeratorBut most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
Do you envision that kind of statement as an effort to bring progressive voters into the fold and reason them into voting for Biden?
Cause…that approach is not going to work.
You’re bashing.
As a rule, you don’t persuade people through bashing them. Right?
Regardless how you excuse it.
….
April 15, 2020 at 3:40 pm #113687waterfieldParticipantBut most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
Do you envision that kind of statement as an effort to bring progressive voters into the fold and reason them into voting for Biden?
Cause…that approach is not going to work.
You’re bashing.
I don’t care if its bashing or not. To the intelligent progressive he or she shouldn’t care either. If one truly cares about the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised the very worst they can do in November is to allow 4 more years of the idiot baby in the WH who wants nothing more than to be a dictator something he’s been his entire adult life.
BTW: I ain’t “bashing”. Just saying what Sanders has said about “irresponsibility”. If that’s bashing so be it.
As a rule, you don’t persuade people through bashing them. Right?
Regardless how you excuse it.
….
- This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by waterfield.
April 15, 2020 at 4:00 pm #113689waterfieldParticipantBut most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
Do you envision that kind of statement as an effort to bring progressive voters into the fold and reason them into voting for Biden?
Cause…that approach is not going to work.
You’re bashing.
As a rule, you don’t persuade people through bashing them. Right?
Regardless how you excuse it.
….
Thx for the lecture. I’m not here to convince anyone. This small board of progressives won’t matter. I’m simply venting and addressing precisely what Sanders was when he said it would be “irresponsible” for his supporters to not support Biden. If that’s bashing-so be it.
I do believe that any intelligent and fair mined progressive would agree, is that the very worst thing for the disenfranchised, for the poor, the sick, for minorities, for the environment, for the rights of women, for the income inequality, for civil rights across the board, would be another 4 years of the dictator in the WH. Armed with that belief, to sit out an election of this magnitude would indeed be “irresponsible”.
I also don’t agree that any adult with a fair mind, progressive or not, would sit out an election of this importance because they felt “bashed” on a message board.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by waterfield.
April 15, 2020 at 4:18 pm #113691waterfieldParticipantElizabeth Warren’s take on the subject:
Opinion: Elizabeth Warren just told progressives what they need to hear about Joe Biden
Sen. Elizabeth Warren
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), shown in March, endorsed former Vice President Joe Biden for president Wednesday. (Amanda Sabga / AFP/Getty Images)
By JON HEALEYDEPUTY EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR
APRIL 15, 20207:30 AM
Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s endorsement of former Vice President Joe Biden came with none of the fanfare that accompanied Sen. Bernie Sanders’ move Monday to do the same. Nor were there any pledges by the two candidates to craft policy together, as Biden will do with Sanders.When your campaign stumbles as badly as Warren’s did — she even finished third in her home state primary behind Biden and Sanders — you don’t have much negotiating leverage.
Yet the video Warren tweeted on Wednesday may prove more helpful to Biden than the 12-minute endorsement video that President Obama delivered Tuesday. Not just because it’s shorter, but because it’s emotional and affecting, and it puts the focus where it needs to be.
Elizabeth Warren
✔
@ewarren
In this moment of crisis, it’s more important than ever that the next president restores Americans’ faith in good, effective government—and I’ve seen Joe Biden help our nation rebuild. Today, I’m proud to endorse @JoeBiden as President of the United States.Embedded video
79.9K
6:00 AM – Apr 15, 2020
Twitter Ads info and privacy
29.5K people are talking about thisSanders and Warren attracted the support of progressives in part because they advocated dramatic change in the country’s policies, priorities and direction. But Warren’s campaign, much more than Sanders’, was also about governing. She had detailed plans for everything she proposed because she was just as concerned about the implementation as about the ideas.
One of the central messages of her Biden endorsement is that this election is about governing. Unlike President Trump, who was uniquely unprepared among American presidents for the crisis he now confronts, Biden has a lifetime of experience in public service and specific experience helping to steer the United States out of a deep recession: the 2008-09 meltdown triggered by the subprime mortgage collapse.
“I saw him up close, doing the work, getting in the weeds,” says Warren, who helped the Obama administration design and set up the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau during that period, and can you imagine anyone describing the current, white-paper-averse occupant of the White House as “getting in the weeds”? Or depicting Trump, as Warren said of Biden, as someone “never forgetting who we were all there to serve”?
The other central message, conveyed more subtly, is that the specifics of policy — the details that animate Warren — don’t matter in the general election.
She offered some assurance to her supporters that Biden, who’s considerably more moderate in his politics than Warren, isn’t rigid or ideological, saying, “he’s shown throughout this campaign that when you come up with new facts or a good argument, he’s not too afraid or too proud to be persuaded.” She didn’t mention it, but a case in point is how he has come around to Warren’s view that federal bankruptcy law is too hostile to ordinary debtors and needs to be changed.
But really, the election in November won’t be a referendum on Trumpism vs. whatever platform Biden puts forward, despite the manifest and crucial policy differences between the two. It will be about character. Americans are seeing the president’s character on display every day in his coronavirus briefings, and it’s not a pretty sight.
That’s why Warren emphasized Biden’s long track record of service and his old-school ability to relate to people in hardship, born out of the tragedies in Biden’s own family. This is the point that needs to be heard by the #BernieOrBust crowd and the progressives who claim to see no difference between Trump and Biden. The former vice president has his flaws, as my friend Melissa Batchelor Warnke catalogued despairingly recently. But they pale in comparison to those of our current chief executive, who asserts “total authority” over monumental decisions while denying any responsibility.
The president crystallized the character gap on Tuesday with one unprecedented and breathtakingly self-serving act. No one can argue that there’s no difference between a politician famous for his empathy and one who holds up relief checks the Treasury is sending to struggling Americans so his name can be printed on them.
OPINIONENTER THE FRAY
- This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by waterfield.
April 15, 2020 at 4:19 pm #113692znModeratorBut most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
Do you envision that kind of statement as an effort to bring progressive voters into the fold and reason them into voting for Biden?
Cause…that approach is not going to work.
You’re bashing.
As a rule, you don’t persuade people through bashing them. Right?
Regardless how you excuse it.
….
Thx for the lecture. I’m not here to convince anyone. This small board of progressives won’t matter. I’m simply venting and addressing precisely what Sanders was when he said it would be “irresponsible” for his supporters to not support Biden. If that’s bashing-so be it.
I do believe that any intelligent and fair mined progressive would agree, is that the very worst thing for the disenfranchised, for the poor, the sick, for minorities, for the environment, for the rights of women, for the income inequality, for civil rights across the board, would be another 4 years of the dictator in the WH. Armed with that belief, to sit out an election of this magnitude would indeed be “irresponsible”.
I also don’t agree that any adult with a fair mind, progressive or not, would sit out an election of this importance because they felt “bashed” on a message board.
No I don’t agree with all those things and in fact I think you’re being way too optimistic about what Biden is. Biden is the status quo, but a few notches worse. He is no aid or help to the disenfranchised, the poor, the sick, minorities, or the rights of women, and especially not income inequality, or civil rights across the board. He is against things that would make substantial progress in all those areas and he is not for anything that would genuinely represent progress in any of those areas. IMO.
Either way, the phrase “the lesser of 2 evils” is a time-honored, old idiomatic saying (in fact it goes back to the 14th century) which does not literally indict anyone as “evil,” any more than the phrase “between a rock and a hard place” literally refers to actual rocks or literally hard places. “The lesser” phrase just means the choice between 2 undesirable alternatives, which of course always means undesirable in the eyes of the one using the phrase.
Added by edit: I guess that’s just me speaking for myself. My colleagues are perfectly fine with the literal use of “evil.
Either way there’s no unity on this among progressives. WV and I disagreed before on whether to vote for Green or for Clinton. I don’t know about this time but either way, I am not sure it pays to generalize about progressives.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by zn.
April 15, 2020 at 5:23 pm #113698wvParticipantTo vote for the lesser-evil, or Not.
It’s interesting that in the progressive mindset-if your not a progressive you must be “evil”.
=================
Yeah, absolutely, I think Biden is ‘evil’. I think he’s aided and abetted mass-murder. He’s the poster-boy for Imperialism, the CIA and Empire.
Imperialism is kindof a neutral sounding word. But what it really means is mass-murder.I could go on and on about Biden, but mass-murder is enough for a post on a message-board.
Anyway, yes, we see it THAT differently. Its THAT big a difference in our perspectives. Its fundamental.
I’m not ’emotional’ about this anymore, btw. I know you will always see it differently. I’m just glad you have begun to see the fundamental difference between a leftist and a liberal/centrist.
And yes, i still think of you as an internet-friend.
I posted a message asking you a question about the National Lawyers Guild a few minutes ago, but it got devoured by the board Vortex. Maybe it’ll show up down the road.
w
vApril 15, 2020 at 8:41 pm #113705nittany ramModeratorI, as a moderate, have never once thought of Sanders as “evil”. But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
I think politicians who rape their staffers are evil.
April 16, 2020 at 2:49 am #113713waterfieldParticipantI, as a moderate, have never once thought of Sanders as “evil”. But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
I think politicians who rape their staffers are evil.
And on what FACTS do you base this statement-besides some anti Biden blog someplace. (hopefully not from the Sanders camp) That is an awfully important claim which IMO should always be sounded on something solid. Otherwise its simply Fox news or worse-just pure crap.
April 16, 2020 at 5:35 am #113714nittany ramModeratorI, as a moderate, have never once thought of Sanders as “evil”. But most progressives apparently do feel that anyone outside their small club are “evil”. And I genuinely believe that is what turned off many a moderate Dem. voter who thought Biden was too old and would have preferred Sanders. But the “you play by my rules or I take my ball and go home ” crowd didn’t help Sanders in the end. And that’s too bad in my opinion.
I think politicians who rape their staffers are evil.
And on what FACTS do you base this statement-besides some anti Biden blog someplace. (hopefully not from the Sanders camp) That is an awfully important claim which IMO should always be sounded on something solid. Otherwise its simply Fox news or worse-just pure crap.
It’s based on claims made by the victim, Tara Reade. She claims Biden pinned her against a wall, began kissing her, and then reached under her dress and digitally raped her.
April 16, 2020 at 11:58 am #113724Billy_TParticipantTrump’s endless sexual assaults should have disqualified him. He actually bragged about them, and bragged to Howard Stern that he hung around in Miss Teen Pageant dressing rooms to watch them undress. That means he admitted to being a Peeping Tom of teenage girls.
Too many people said, “Meh.”
If Biden is guilty of what he’s been accused of, he should withdraw. I thought he never should have run in the first place, long before I heard this accusation. But now it’s even more imperative.
Yes, innocent before proven guilty. Definitely. But he has enough baggage without that, and seems to be declining before our very eyes . . . etc.
So we’re stuck with a choice between a serial sexual predator, and one who possibly did this once — which is obviously once too often. But it’s not just the person in the White House, when all is said and done. We get their ideology too, their agenda, their personnel choices, their party, its ideology, its agenda, etc.
To me, it’s an easy choice, if forced to choose between the two (rotten choices) and just those two: the Dems. IMO, if it’s a binary thing only, no leftist should need more than two seconds to decide.
Joan Walsh from The Nation has a different take on the Biden affair. Strikes me as “fair and balanced.” That said, we may never know the truth about this.
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/tara-reade-joe-biden-democrats/
April 16, 2020 at 12:56 pm #113726nittany ramModeratorSo we’re stuck with a choice between a serial sexual predator, and one who possibly did this once — which is obviously once too often. But it’s not just the person in the White House, when all is said and done. We get their ideology too, their agenda, their personnel choices, their party, its ideology, its agenda, etc.
To me, it’s an easy choice, if forced to choose between the two (rotten choices) and just those two: the Dems. IMO, if it’s a binary thing only, no leftist should need more than two seconds to decide.
Well, I don’t think Biden is a serial predator, but I have no reason to doubt this woman’s claim, and I think you might be letting him off a little easy. Biden has long been alleged to be “handsy” and to touch women inappropriately.
I myself will most likely vote for Biden, because, as you say, if I have to choose between two rapists, I’ll choose the slightly less objectionable rapist. But I’m not sure it’s fair to say any leftist should be able to make this choice easily. The woman who Biden is accused of assaulting did some work for Bernie’s campaign, so I’m assuming she’s at least something of a leftist. Should she feel compelled to vote for her rapist over Trump? Should any woman, regardless of political affiliation, feel compelled to vote for a rapist?
I no longer buy into the “a vote for ‘x’ is a vote for ‘y’” precept. People need to be able to vote their conscience, and not feel pressured to vote for someone they object to, and if someone’s conscience won’t let them vote for a rapist, even if that rapist shares the same political views, then I’m ok with that.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by nittany ram.
April 16, 2020 at 1:23 pm #113729waterfieldParticipantSo we’re stuck with a choice between a serial sexual predator, and one who possibly did this once — which is obviously once too often. But it’s not just the person in the White House, when all is said and done. We get their ideology too, their agenda, their personnel choices, their party, its ideology, its agenda, etc.
To me, it’s an easy choice, if forced to choose between the two (rotten choices) and just those two: the Dems. IMO, if it’s a binary thing only, no leftist should need more than two seconds to decide.
Well, I don’t think Biden is a serial predator, but I have no reason to doubt this woman’s claim, and I think you might be letting him off a little easy. Biden has long been alleged to be “handsy” and to touch women inappropriately.
I myself will most likely vote for Biden, because, as you say, if I have to choose between two rapists, I’ll choose the slightly less objectionable rapist. But I’m not sure it’s fair to say any leftist should be able to make this choice easily. The woman who Biden is accused of assaulting did some work for Bernie’s campaign, so I’m assuming she’s at least something of a leftist. Should she feel compelled to vote for her rapist over Trump? Should any woman, regardless of political affiliation, feel compelled to vote for a rapist?
I no longer buy into the “a vote for ‘x’ is a vote for ‘y’” precept. People need to be able to vote their conscience, and not feel pressured to vote for someone they object to, and if someone’s conscience won’t let them vote for a rapist, even if that rapist shares the same political views, then I’m ok with that.
Ok-she did come out of the Sanders camp. That’s what I was afraid of. You say you have no reason to doubt her. Other than her “claim” do you have any reason to believe her? I’m sure Sanders was aware of this claim but as far as I know he never has made any reference to it. I hope I’m right on this. Simply stated, Sanders acted like an adult with respect to this claim. That means that because someone says something about another who happens to be someone you dislike you don’t automatically claim it to be true-especially when it comes this type of claim.
Here’s a question: If some woman came out of the Biden camp and claimed Berni digitally raped her would you say: I have no reason to doubt her ?
April 16, 2020 at 2:06 pm #113731znModeratorOk-she did come out of the Sanders camp. That’s what I was afraid of.
My 2 cents. The implication with this “Sanders camp” remark is that it’s a motivated political lie. Well we all know that actually the percentage of false accusations with sexual assault are small. And of course this is a guy who was instrumental in trying to discredit Anita Hill.
The woman has nothing to gain by this and we also know that sexual assault accusations easily turn into blame the victim stuff, which means she has plenty to lose by it.
April 16, 2020 at 3:03 pm #113732Billy_TParticipantNittany,
Looks like I failed again to make my point clearly enough.
I’m talking about if a leftist chooses to vote for one major party or the other, and just between those two.
I think voting Socialist, Green or Frisbetarian makes plenty of sense, as does staying home, if that’s what a citizen chooses. It’s up to all of us. Our choice, obviously.
Just saying that any sort of internal debate regarding the two major parties should be easy for leftists. If we’re going to cast a vote, and if that vote is earmarked for one or the other . . . it shouldn’t be a tough decision.
If I’m still being as clear as mud, apologies in advance.
April 16, 2020 at 3:27 pm #113734znModeratorIf I’m still being as clear as mud, apologies in advance.
So, you’re saying, you’re being perfectly clear and Nittany should apologize. Got it.
I think calling Nittany “mud” though is a little too strong.
April 16, 2020 at 4:06 pm #113737Billy_TParticipantIf I’m still being as clear as mud, apologies in advance.
So, you’re saying, you’re being perfectly clear and Nittany should apologize. Got it.
I think calling Nittany “mud” though is a little too strong.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m sayin’!
;>)
Finally, someone understands!! Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah!!
Btw, did anyone else notice that we signed a kicker by that name? Shouldn’t we get some extra points for that, from someone, somehow, someway?
April 16, 2020 at 5:15 pm #113738nittany ramModeratorNittany,
Looks like I failed again to make my point clearly enough.
I’m talking about if a leftist chooses to vote for one major party or the other, and just between those two.
I think voting Socialist, Green or Frisbetarian makes plenty of sense, as does staying home, if that’s what a citizen chooses. It’s up to all of us. Our choice, obviously.
Just saying that any sort of internal debate regarding the two major parties should be easy for leftists. If we’re going to cast a vote, and if that vote is earmarked for one or the other . . . it shouldn’t be a tough decision.
If I’m still being as clear as mud, apologies in advance.
Ok, I get it. I misundertood. I thought you were saying that Biden, regardless of his transgressions, is a slam dunk choice over Trump. I agree he’s better than Trump, but the issue isn’t cut-n-dry. There are other considerations and plenty of reasons not to vote for Biden.
What you’re really saying is that if you had to choose between two major parties, you would attend the one featuring Frisbee activities. I assume you’re referring to games like Frolf (Frisbee golf) and Ultimate (Frisbee football).
April 16, 2020 at 6:24 pm #113739InvaderRamModeratorWell we all know that actually the percentage of false accusations with sexual assault are small.
yeah. i mean we’ll never really know. but if i had to place a bet. i’d bet she isn’t lying.
April 17, 2020 at 3:54 pm #113760waterfieldParticipantJoe Biden a rapist ? Right. I’m sure Sanders has so little class he would support a rapist. Elizabeth Warren ? Oh, she doesn’t care either -she too would support a rapist. And all the rest of those candidates who support Biden. Obama, Harris, Yang, Buttigieg, Klobuchar. Clearly, they all have no morals since they are supporting a rapist. Then again maybe they too are all sexual predators so it doesn’t bother them in the least. Then again maybe they don’t even know about this “allegation”, huh ?
I believe it is this precise reason why so many undecided people turned away from Sanders-not so much because of Bernie’s policies but because of the vitriol spread by his supporters-which sadly taints a good man. A true progressive to me has always been a champion of the rights of an individual. Calling a person a rapist based on a “claim” only without knowing the claimant and or anything about that person other than they work for someone who you share political common ground with is more than simply distasteful. And I strongly suspect that if the tables were reversed with Sanders being the accused there would be no such fervor.
Most moderate democrats I know harbor no ill will toward Sanders, Stein, Warren, or for that matter any other progressives. Based on the language from progressives -I do know a few-plus media accounts, I can’t say the same in terms of how they relate to “other” democrats. The rapist claim is simply one example. It smacks of Willie Horton all over again. Maybe the far left and far right do share something.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by waterfield.
April 17, 2020 at 4:07 pm #113762wvParticipantJoe Biden a rapist ? Right. I’m sure Sanders has so little class he would support a rapist. Elizabeth Warren ? Oh, she doesn’t care either -she too would support a rapist. And all the rest of those candidates who support Biden. Obama, Harris, Yang, Buttigieg, Klobuchar. Clearly, they all have no morals since they are supporting a rapist. Then again maybe they too are all sexual predators so it doesn’t bother them in the least. Then again maybe they don’t even know about this “allegation”, huh ?
I believe it is this precise reason why so many undecided people turned away from Sanders-not so much because of Bernie’s policies but because of the vitriol spread by his supporters-which sadly taints a good man. A true progressive to me has always been a champion of the rights of an individual. Calling a person a rapist based on a “claim” only without knowing the claimant and or anything about that person other than they work for someone who you share political common ground with is more than simply distasteful. And I strongly suspect that if the tables were reversed with Sanders being the accused there would be no such fervor.
Most moderate democrats I know harbor no ill will toward Sanders, Stein, Warren, or for that matter any other progressives. Based on the language from progressives -I do know a few-plus media accounts, I can’t say the same in terms of how they relate to “other” democrats. The rapist claim is simply one example. It smacks of Willie Horton all over again. Maybe the far left and far right do share something.
====
Sexual assault allegations are a nightmare. We dont know. He might be a rapist, She might be a liar. Its a nightmare.
How would you suggest voters and the media handle it?
We know how a court of law would handle it, but we are not in a court of law. So, people arent limited by legal standards. I have no problem with people believing her. Or him. Or believing they dont know. We’re not in court.
w
vApril 17, 2020 at 5:20 pm #113763nittany ramModeratorJoe Biden a rapist ? Right. I’m sure Sanders has so little class he would support a rapist. Elizabeth Warren ? Oh, she doesn’t care either -she too would support a rapist. And all the rest of those candidates who support Biden. Obama, Harris, Yang, Buttigieg, Klobuchar. Clearly, they all have no morals since they are supporting a rapist. Then again maybe they too are all sexual predators so it doesn’t bother them in the least. Then again maybe they don’t even know about this “allegation”, huh ?
I believe it is this precise reason why so many undecided people turned away from Sanders-not so much because of Bernie’s policies but because of the vitriol spread by his supporters-which sadly taints a good man. A true progressive to me has always been a champion of the rights of an individual. Calling a person a rapist based on a “claim” only without knowing the claimant and or anything about that person other than they work for someone who you share political common ground with is more than simply distasteful. And I strongly suspect that if the tables were reversed with Sanders being the accused there would be no such fervor.
Most moderate democrats I know harbor no ill will toward Sanders, Stein, Warren, or for that matter any other progressives. Based on the language from progressives -I do know a few-plus media accounts, I can’t say the same in terms of how they relate to “other” democrats. The rapist claim is simply one example. It smacks of Willie Horton all over again. Maybe the far left and far right do share something.
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Sexual assault allegations are a nightmare. We dont know. He might be a rapist, She might be a liar. Its a nightmare.
How would you suggest voters and the media handle it?
We know how a court of law would handle it, but we are not in a court of law. So, people arent limited by legal standards. I have no problem with people believing her. Or him. Or believing they dont know. We’re not in court.
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vThat’s the key. We’re not in court. There’s no evidence available for us to evaluate. No burden of proof has to be met. All we have is the word of a woman who is risking a lot by coming forward vs the word of a man who has a history of inappropriate touching and general creepiness. She may be lying or he may be lying. No way to know for sure. It sucks that it’s this way, but I’m not just going to dismiss it because there’s no way to know conclusively. The crime is too heinous for that. I’m going with my gut. I believe her.
For what it’s worth, the FBI says less than 8% of sexual assault claims are fraudulent.
And I’m still voting for Biden.
April 17, 2020 at 7:39 pm #113765wvParticipantThat’s the key. We’re not in court. There’s no evidence available for us to evaluate. No burden of proof has to be met. All we have is the word of a woman who is risking a lot by coming forward vs the word of a man who has a history of inappropriate touching and general creepiness. She may be lying or he may be lying. No way to know for sure. It sucks that it’s this way, but I’m not just going to dismiss it because there’s no way to know conclusively. The crime is too heinous for that. I’m going with my gut. I believe her.
For what it’s worth, the FBI says less than 8% of sexual assault claims are fraudulent.
And I’m still voting for Biden.
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I think Imperialist Rapists are going to get about 98 percent of the Vote.
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vApril 17, 2020 at 8:12 pm #113766waterfieldParticipantThat’s the key. We’re not in court. There’s no evidence available for us to evaluate. No burden of proof has to be met. All we have is the word of a woman who is risking a lot by coming forward vs the word of a man who has a history of inappropriate touching and general creepiness. She may be lying or he may be lying. No way to know for sure. It sucks that it’s this way, but I’m not just going to dismiss it because there’s no way to know conclusively. The crime is too heinous for that. I’m going with my gut. I believe her.
For what it’s worth, the FBI says less than 8% of sexual assault claims are fraudulent.
And I’m still voting for Biden.
But would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story? I’m thinking that if your totally honest with yourself-either here on this board or alone with your private thoughts-you would truly hesitate before pronouncing as you did referring to Biden: “Politicians who rape their staffers are evil”. You see-to me that tells me that its clearly more about politics than about rape-and does a disservice to actual victims of sexual assault. Maybe we are just different. I simply cannot imagine myself, upon hearing a claim by a Biden staffer that Bernie sexually assaulted her some time, some where, that Bernie is a rapist. I wouldn’t do that. Maybe my real point in all this is anecdotal and that is listening to so many Sanders supporters as it relates to anyone not a “progressive” there is just so much vitriol (almost “hate” ) for those not part of their own crowd and I do not hear the same heated anger toward Sanders coming from moderates. With progressives it gets very personal when it comes to Biden-much like Trump’s “sloppy Joe”-but even worse -i.e. he’s a “rapist”. I genuinely believe that is why so many people that otherwise would have supported Sanders left his camp. And that is truly sad for me because I believe Sanders is a very decent man who plays by the rules.
Finally, your FBI figure (8%) is bogus. The reason is that those in the rape prevention field believe that by far the majority of victims of rape-be they women or men-fail to report the assault. The FBI figure refers to reported rapes that were investigated.
April 17, 2020 at 8:45 pm #113769waterfieldParticipantJoe Biden a rapist ? Right. I’m sure Sanders has so little class he would support a rapist. Elizabeth Warren ? Oh, she doesn’t care either -she too would support a rapist. And all the rest of those candidates who support Biden. Obama, Harris, Yang, Buttigieg, Klobuchar. Clearly, they all have no morals since they are supporting a rapist. Then again maybe they too are all sexual predators so it doesn’t bother them in the least. Then again maybe they don’t even know about this “allegation”, huh ?
I believe it is this precise reason why so many undecided people turned away from Sanders-not so much because of Bernie’s policies but because of the vitriol spread by his supporters-which sadly taints a good man. A true progressive to me has always been a champion of the rights of an individual. Calling a person a rapist based on a “claim” only without knowing the claimant and or anything about that person other than they work for someone who you share political common ground with is more than simply distasteful. And I strongly suspect that if the tables were reversed with Sanders being the accused there would be no such fervor.
Most moderate democrats I know harbor no ill will toward Sanders, Stein, Warren, or for that matter any other progressives. Based on the language from progressives -I do know a few-plus media accounts, I can’t say the same in terms of how they relate to “other” democrats. The rapist claim is simply one example. It smacks of Willie Horton all over again. Maybe the far left and far right do share something.
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Sexual assault allegations are a nightmare. We dont know. He might be a rapist, She might be a liar. Its a nightmare.
How would you suggest voters and the media handle it?
We know how a court of law would handle it, but we are not in a court of law. So, people arent limited by legal standards. I have no problem with people believing her. Or him. Or believing they dont know. We’re not in court.
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vAll that is true. People have a right to believe what they want to believe. My point is that -courtroom or not-its unfair to Biden to claim he’s a rapist when the engine that’s driving that assertion is more about politics than it is about the alleged assault. Which is why I asked :if the claim came out of the Biden camp and was directed at Sanders would the same person assert the same “I believe the girl” and Sanders is a rapist. Of course not. That is all. My other point was I just don’t see the same “hate” toward progressives from moderates that progressives have towards moderates. Maybe that’s because progressives tend to be younger and are not as restricted in their speech behavior as us “older” folks. It also appears to me -at least on this board-that democrats who are not “progressive” enough are far more targets for attack than the boogie man in the WH and his supporters. That to me has always been -just weird. If ANYONE should be the subject of attack…
April 17, 2020 at 9:03 pm #113771znModeratorBut would you still say “I’m going with my gut. I believe her” if the “claim” was made by Biden staffer against Bernie-since the only information you have is her story?
I don’t play that game.
It’s just simply true that there is a low percentage of false claims.
And conspiracy theories aside, the idea that some poor woman would put herself out there for the “blame the victim” effects they get from accusing a celebrity of rape–just for political reasons? Nah. That sounds completely far-fetched to me. It actually sounds like you are doing the smear the victim thing, just indirectly. Why? You’re a Biden advocate.
Some guy on the internet smearing a rape accuser because their candidate is the one accused sounds much more plausible to me than the idea that a woman would put herself through that for mere political reasons.
BUT if Sanders were accused I would have the exact same feelings. Cause as I said not all of us play that game.
And Nittany said he was voting for Biden regardless so there’s that too.
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