Russia’s Attacks on Democracy Aren’t Only a Problem for America

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  • #73240
    zn
    Moderator

    Russia’s Attacks on Democracy Aren’t Only a Problem for America

    And that’s a problem for skeptics of Russian meddling.

    Joshua Holland

    link: https://www.thenation.com/article/russias-attacks-on-democracy-arent-only-a-problem-for-america/

    Virtually all of the debates over the intelligence community’s conclusion that Russia waged a multifaceted campaign to influence the 2016 election look at the issue through a prism of US domestic politics or the bilateral relationship between the United States and Russia. That’s understandable, given what a shocking outcome the election produced. But it also sidesteps the troubling reality that the Kremlin’s attempts to influence other countries’ electoral processes have been a problem across Europe for over a decade, and that our intelligence agencies weren’t alone in sounding the alarm. And that’s a serious problem for those who are dismissive of the evidence of Russian intervention. Russia’s effort in our election may have been its most dramatic—and arguably its most fruitful—but evidence suggests it was hardly an isolated event.

    The US intelligence community’s conclusions about how Russia intervened in our elections fits a pattern that European analysts say dates back to 2007, when Vladimir Putin told the Munich Security Conference that American dominance in a unipolar world was “pernicious,” and that NATO’s expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust.” The Kremlin saw a pressing need to confront a series of anti-Russian “color revolutions” in the former Soviet states during the early 2000s. Sebastian Rotella reported for ProPublica that “Russian leaders believed the United States was using ‘soft power’ means, such as the media and diplomacy, to cause trouble in Russia’s domain.” The Russians decided to fight fire with fire, as they saw it. USA Today international-affairs correspondent Oren Dorell reported that “Russian sabotage of Western computer systems started that same year.” It was also in 2007 that “Russians began experimenting with information warfare” in Estonia, followed soon after “by attempts at disruption in Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Finland, Bosnia and Macedonia,” according to The Washington Post’s Dana Priest and Michael Birnbaum.

    Priest and Birnbaum reported that “Russia has not hidden its liking for information warfare. The chief of the general staff, Valery Gerasimov, wrote in 2013 that ‘informational conflict’ is a key part of war. Actual military strength is only the final tool of a much subtler war-fighting strategy, he said.” Earlier this year, Russia’s Ministry of Defense announced that it had established a new cyberwarfare unit.

    Classified documents from Macedonia’s intelligence agency that were leaked to The Guardian showed that “Russian spies and diplomats have been involved in a nearly decade-long effort to spread propaganda and provoke discord in Macedonia.” That was just one part of Russian effort “to step up its influence all across the countries of the former Yugoslavia. The Kremlin’s goal is to stop them from joining NATO and to pry them away from western influence,” reports The Guardian.

    British officials say they believe that in 2015, Russia “interfered directly in UK elections “with a series of attempted cyber hacks and “clandestine online activity,” according to The Independent. German intelligence officials say that “‘large amounts of data’ were seized during a May 2015 cyber attack on the Bundestag…which has previously been blamed on APT28, a Russian hacking group,” according to Reuters. In July, Germany’s interior secretary, Thomas de Maiziere, and Hans-Georg Maassen, the country’s spy chief, warned that Russia will “start publishing compromising material on German MPs…in order to destabilise elections in September,” according to Andrew Rettman at EUobserver.

    In May, NSA Director Michael Rogers testified under oath before Congress that American officials had found evidence of Russian involvement in the recent French elections, which they shared with their intelligence officers in Paris. “We had talked to our French counterparts,” he said, “and gave them a heads-up: ‘Look, we’re watching the Russians, we’re seeing them penetrate some of your infrastructure.’”

    The list of countries targeted by Russia goes on. Earlier this year, Dutch Interior Minister Ronald Plasterk announced that all votes cast in the March election in the Netherlands would be hand-counted because of “software problems and fears of Russian hacking,” according to Politico’s European edition. The Norwegian Police Security Service informed that country’s Labour Party that it had been hacked, and Norwegian media reported that the group behind the cyber-attack was the same one that breached the DNC’s computers last year. Russia is believed to have been involved in similar attacks throughout what it views as its sphere of influence.

    Some skeptics have seized on reports that French and German intelligence officials were unable to confirm that Russia was behind recent hacks in those countries. But officials in both countries treat Russian attacks as an active and ongoing threat to their democracies. And Mark Galeotti, head of the Centre for European Security at the Institute of International Relations Prague, says that while the intelligence agencies were not able to establish direct ties to Russia, his sources in the French and German intelligence remain confident that they were behind the hacks. “In any cyber case it’s very difficult to be absolutely conclusive, because even if it’s coming out of a machine that’s situated in Russia, it could have been controlled by someone in North Korea or China or Belgium for all we know, and you’d really need a forensic examination of the machine where the attack originated.” And while people “expect the kind of standards of proof that one would expect in a court of law—proof beyond a reasonable doubt—there comes a time when you have to talk about the balance of probabilities. Intelligence agencies very rarely rely on single-point information—a single source. When intelligence agencies say, ‘We’re pretty confident it’s X,’ it’s because they have alternative sources, whether it’s signal intelligence or human intelligence, inclining them in the same direction.”

    In the case of the recent US election hacks, it wasn’t US intelligence agencies that originally picked up the scent. According to The Guardian’s Luke Harding, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, and Nick Hopkins, it was the GCHQ—the UK’s version of the National Security Agency—that “first became aware in late 2015 of suspicious ‘interactions’ between figures connected to Trump and known or suspected Russian agents.” Then, as the Guardian piece outlines, “Over the next six months, until summer 2016, a number of western agencies shared further information on contacts between Trump’s inner circle and Russians.” That included intelligence officials from Germany, Estonia, Poland, Canada, and Australia. According to one source, French and Dutch spooks also passed on signals intelligence to their American counterparts.

    Analysts say that the Kremlin’s motives are relatively straightforward. As its post–Cold War “hard power” declined, Vladimir Putin’s government has pursued its interests by stepping up its cyber-warfare and disinformation campaigns in order to divide, destabilize, and demoralize its geopolitical opponents.

    According to Paul Goble, a former official with the State Department and the CIA who now teaches at the Institute of World Politics in Washington, DC, “Putin doesn’t believe in democracy, and he wants to send the message to other people that democracy is a system that outside forces can manipulate, and therefore cast doubt on its legitimacy.” A related goal is “to weaken the transnational political, economic, and military institutions that have been the basis of American foreign policy for a very long time. The weakening or destruction of NATO, the weakening or destruction of the EU, dividing Europe from the United States—this has been Russia’s goal since the creation of NATO.”

    Galeotti agrees, telling me that when Vladimir Putin “looks at these international institutions, what he sees are institutions created by the West, to serve the West’s interests. When Putin talks about sovereignty, his notion is ‘nobody gets to tell us what to do within our own borders.’” Galeotti doesn’t think Putin “has a grand agenda,” so much as he “wants to be able to opt out of the post-1945 world order.” With an economy roughly the size of Spain’s, Russia’s no longer a superpower, but, says Galeotti, “Putin is clearly committed to making Russia great again,” and “one way to assert Russian power is to get everyone else divided and weakened. If you can’t make yourself stronger, at least you can try to make others weaker.”

    Natasha Kuhrt, a Russia specialist at King’s College, London, is herself skeptical of claims that “the Kremlin is pulling the strings of certain groups in certain countries.” While she does believe that Russia has tried to influence other countries’ elections, she says that the media have overstated the impact. But she says the Russians “have been very adept” at exploiting anxieties about European integration—the “general trend of questioning certain values, let’s say, partly for economic reasons and partly for other reasons.” As for our election, Kuhrt adds that “there is a kind of anti-Western discourse within Russia that is used mainly for domestic purposes.” With most Russians’ living standards flat or in decline, “the regime’s legitimacy to a large extent rests on that now. So it’s also about showing what idiots Americans are for electing a buffoon like Trump.”

    Russia and the United States have attempted, and in many cases succeeded, to influence other countries’ electoral processes for the past hundred years. But analysts say the scale and sophistication of Russian attacks have taken this practice to a new level. Today’s lightning-fast communications and low barriers of entry into online publishing represent a departure from the kind of influence campaigns countries waged in the past. Back in January, Max Fisher argued in a New York Times piece that our media are highly susceptible to being duped by dark PR campaigns, noting that while “[r]eporters have always relied on sources who provide critical information for self-interested reasons,” in 2016 the source was often “Russia’s military intelligence agency, the G.R.U.—operating through shadowy fronts who worked to mask that fact—and its agenda was to undermine the American presidential election.”

    US investigators are currently looking into “whether Trump supporters and far-right websites coordinated with Moscow over the release of fake news, including stories implicating Clinton in murder or pedophilia, or paid to boost those stories on Facebook,” according to Julian Borger at The Guardian. A Pew study released last year found that six in 10 Americans get news from social media, mostly from Facebook.

    Here at home, the growing evidence that Russia’s intervention in our elections was only the most recent, and successful, example of an international campaign that dates back George W. Bush’s presidency is a serious problem for those who dismiss or discount the US intelligence community’s findings.

    For some on the left, including a number of voices at The Nation, the real story involves one or more of the following: Democrats hyping a story line in order to excuse their embarrassing loss to Donald Trump; Hillary Clinton loyalists defending their candidate from the same charge; rogue elements within our intelligence agencies either fabricating or exaggerating Russian involvement to undermine Trump’s legitimacy after he compared them to Nazis, or those same elements of the “deep state”—inveterate cold warriors—sabotaging Trump’s efforts to bring about détente with Moscow.

    But these narratives don’t hold up when viewed in a larger geopolitical context. It’s unlikely that in 2015 British intelligence tipped off US spy agencies about those suspicious contacts because it wanted to absolve Hillary Clinton for her future loss to Donald Trump. The Dutch aren’t interested in what lessons the Democratic Party took away from their defeat, nor are the Lithuanians invested in the idea that Bernie would have won. And it’s highly unlikely that Germany, which was torn apart during the Cold War, is chomping on the bit to launch a new one.

    In recent months, one intelligence official after another has testified before Congress that the Russians will take the lessons they learned in the US election last year, and in previous campaigns elsewhere, and use them again in the future. Last week, CNN reported that, “emboldened by the lack of a significant retaliatory response” to its attack on the 2016 election, “Russian spies are ramping up their intelligence-gathering efforts in the US, according to current and former US intelligence officials who say they have noticed an increase since the election.” According to the report, “US intelligence and law enforcement agencies have detected an increase in suspected Russian intelligence officers entering the US under the guise of other business.” Former director of national intelligence James Clapper warned on CNN about potential Russian intervention in the 2018 midterm elections. “They are going to stretch the envelope as far as they can to collect information and I think largely if I can use the military phrase, prep the battlefield for 2018 elections,” he said.

    The fact that there’s a significant amount of skepticism on both the left and the right is blunting calls to prepare for the next attack. The president has hesitated to even acknowledge that this is a serious issue. And, while a recent analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice found that just $400 million invested in replacing paperless voting machines with machines that read paper ballots—less than the Pentagon spent last year on military bands—would help secure our election infrastructure, no such funding is in the works. In fact, in late June Republicans on the House Appropriations Committee voted to defund the Election Assistance Commission, which Ari Berman says is “the only federal agency that helps states make sure their voting machines aren’t hacked.” The level of concern should be even higher now that we have evidence that the Russian military intelligence did target election systems specifically: The Intercept reported last month that leaked NSA documents showed that Russian military intelligence launched cyber-attacks against an election-software vendor’s internal systems. A subsequent report by Bloomberg said that US investigators had found evidence that “Russian hackers hit systems in a total of 39 states.”

    Compare our lackadaisical response to the seriousness with which Europe is taking the issue. Dana Priest and Michael Birnbaum reported for The Washington Post that “European countries are deploying a variety of bold tactics and tools to expose Russian attempts to sway voters and weaken European unity.” Across Europe, “counterintelligence officials, legislators, researchers and journalists have devoted years—in some cases, decades—to the development of ways to counter Russian disinformation, hacking and trolling” that they’re now trying to use to safeguard their own democratic processes.

    France and Germany have pressured Facebook to take down thousands of automated accounts that spread fake news. In Sweden, school children are learning to spot fake news. Fourteen hundred Slovakian companies have agreed to boycott a list of fake-news sites. The EU is employing hundreds of volunteer researchers to expose false stories on the Internet. “In Lithuania,” write Priest and Birnbaum, “100 citizen cyber-sleuths dubbed ‘elves’ link up digitally to identify and beat back the people employed on social media to spread Russian disinformation. They call the daily skirmishes ‘Elves vs. Trolls.’”

    While Russian interference in last year’s election was all about us, Moscow’s use of asymmetric tactics to undermine multilateral institutions and aid pro-Russia parties in so many other countries is not. The difference is that with some Americans across the political spectrum insisting that we should simply move on, we aren’t doing much to counter it. Doing so doesn’t mean creating an environment of “neo-McCarthyite hysteria,” escalating hostilities with Moscow or blundering toward a shooting war in Syria. It simply requires that we acknowledge the reality of the problem and work with our allies to address it in a sober and serious way.

    #73280
    TSRF
    Participant

    Wonder if we’ll see Elves vs. Trolls in GOT season 7.

    This is scary shit. I’d hate to think the rank and file Republican in office would be OK with the hacking, but since they are in the majority, maybe they are OK?

    Whatever, whenever, however Trump gets sacked, Pence has to go too.

    #73285
    wv
    Participant

    “…The Russians decided to fight fire with fire, as they saw it…”

    Well, i agree with this part.

    w
    v

    #73286
    zn
    Moderator

    “…The Russians decided to fight fire with fire, as they saw it…”

    Well, i agree with this part.

    w
    v

    Lol. Like they’re latecomers to the game.

    I have no excuses for them. If we can’t condemn both equally, to me that means something’s amiss.

    #73314
    wv
    Participant

    “…The Russians decided to fight fire with fire, as they saw it…”

    Well, i agree with this part.

    w
    v

    Lol. Like they’re latecomers to the game.

    I have no excuses for them. If we can’t condemn both equally, to me that means something’s amiss.

    ==============

    I have stated over and over and over that the US is a gangster state. A big one. Russia is a gangster state. A smaller one.

    Two gangster states.

    How is that not condemning them?

    But one of those gangster states is trying to encircle the globe. And one is smaller and is being surrounded by NATO.

    So I ‘kinda’ understand Russia’s response (so does Chomsky). Still, russia is a gangster-state. A gangster-state responding to being surrounded by a bigger gangster-state.

    So thats how “I” see it. Nothing is going to change my mind about this. It just seems way to obvious to me. I guess we just disagree somewhat.

    w
    v

    #73325
    zn
    Moderator

    So I ‘kinda’ understand Russia’s response (so does Chomsky). Still, russia is a gangster-state. A gangster-state responding to being surrounded by a bigger gangster-state.

    Well, let me try to be clearer then. That’s the excuse, what you say there. They;re not surrounded or threatened. That poor victim thing is just something they use to justify themselves. It’s not real. They’re aggressors in their own sphere in ways that have nothing to do with any of their public justifications.

    Again, Marx on imperialism. There’s no empire. There’s empireS, plural. They compete. One of the ways Russia competes is to justify itself in relation to USA actions. It’s all hollow and transparent. When I see defenses of them, even backhanded ones, all I CAN see is just their own propaganda being repeated.

    Sorry it’s a thing I have. Or one of the things I have.

    Tell you what. I will give you your next 12 Russia comments free, without saying a word. Deal?

    #73341
    wv
    Participant

    So I ‘kinda’ understand Russia’s response (so does Chomsky). Still, russia is a gangster-state. A gangster-state responding to being surrounded by a bigger gangster-state.

    Well, let me try to be clearer then. That’s the excuse, what you say there. They;re not surrounded or threatened. That poor victim thing is just something they use to justify themselves. It’s not real. They’re aggressors in their own sphere in ways that have nothing to do with any of their public justifications.

    Again, Marx on imperialism. There’s no empire. There’s empireS, plural. They compete. One of the ways Russia competes is to justify itself in relation to USA actions. It’s all hollow and transparent. When I see defenses of them, even backhanded ones, all I CAN see is just their own propaganda being repeated.

    Sorry it’s a thing I have. Or one of the things I have.

    Tell you what. I will give you your next 12 Russia comments free, without saying a word. Deal?

    =================

    Well, we’ve both said what we think. All i ask is dont mischaracterize what i post. I called russia a gangster-state. So that ‘means’ something. I didnt call them victims.

    Where we seem to disagree is why they do what they do. You say its because they are an empire. I say its because they are a gangster-state that feels threatened by a bigger gangster-state.

    …now the thing i ask myself is — how would russia be acting if the US-deep-state WASNT trying to encircle/dominate the globe? What would the Russian-gangster-state be doing? I wonder about it, but I dunno.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by wv.
    #73350
    zn
    Moderator

    All i ask is dont mischaracterize what i post. I called russia a gangster-state. So that ‘means’ something. I didnt call them victims.

    But I wasn’t referring to you in saying that. I was referring to their own claim, the one quoted. “…The Russians decided to fight fire with fire, as they saw it…”

    Again just discussing the comment, the Russians use all means of attack available to them to defend and expand their sphere. They are not provoked into it to act 2nd…they do what they are capable of doing, while also expanding what they are doing. They’re not fighting back as if under threat with the need to respond, they’re aggressive in the first place.

    So everything I said was about that comment. The point being made in that comment is that they react to the provocation of others. That’s just not true. They act within their own sphere, and against others, on the basis of their desire to expand their own power.

    BTW, misreading just happens, as it did in this case where (as it looks to me) you thought I had misread you but I think that was you misreading me.

    About misreading. It’s never motivated, it’s never blameworthy, it’s never something to indict. It just happens. So all of us at all times in communication like this should be careful to read well (even if that’s just an ideal), to straighten others out if we feel we’ve been misread, and to keep it all free of extra edges. Misreading is a net norm…the trick is to never take it wrong when it happens. And it happens to me all the time. We all communicate with dozens of people a day about these things (or I do anyway), and it’s not just here. We don’t all memorize each other’s positions. Sometimes you just have to calmly repeat yourself. It happens. I know I am constantly in that position. It’s just part of the deal.

    ….

    #73354
    wv
    Participant

    Ok, no heat, no tension from my side. Just disagreement about Russia.

    “the Russians use all means of attack available to them to defend and expand their sphere. They are not provoked into it to act 2nd…they do what they are capable of doing, while also expanding what they are doing. They’re not fighting back as if under threat with the need to respond, they’re aggressive in the first place..”

    See, you are sure of this. I am not sure of it. I mull it over, but I’m not sure of it. How can we know that Russia would be doing what its doing if it didnt feel surrounded by NATO ? How do we know? All we know for sure is it IS being surrounded by NATO and this huge-amerikan-gangster state. And it reacts.

    So we disagree. You are ‘sure’ that Russia is not just ‘reacting’ and ‘fighting fire with fire’. And I am not sure. But i am totally open to the russian explanation that they are just fighting fire with fire, etc.

    w
    v

    #73359
    zn
    Moderator

    How can we know that Russia would be doing what its doing if it didnt feel surrounded by NATO ?

    I can only tell you what I think. So in spite of your bizarre misreading, I don’t know what this has to do with what Jared Goff thinks. Let’s leave him out of it. Anyway. In looking at Russia, I add up its internal policies with its external. They actually speak of expanding spheres of influence. Their relationship with the republics of the former USSR is very brutally paternalistic. They smash internal dissent and assassinate opposition. They directly propagandize their own news. They go to various places in the world and use various mechanisms to directly influence public discourse about THEM, in a kind of sustained PR campaign, while completely disallowing anything remotely similar on their own turf. This includes fostering dissent in other countries while using the fact of dissent in other countries to tell their own people that democracy does not work. And it’s that crude. DEMOCRACY does not work, Russian people, so stop whining for it. And so on. They use any and all means to do all of that. They present themselves openly as an authoritarian state intent on expanding its influence and power, and they act like it too.

    And the NATO question can be reversed. Why isn’t Russia making nice with NATO and finding ways to convince the NATO bloc that in fact they have more in common and conflicts can be ameliorated. NATO claims it acts defensively in relation to Russian actions. So my feeling is, if we’re going to position ourselves as not knowing, then, that cuts completely both ways. From that perspective, it becomes NATO and Russian say these things about EACH OTHER, and who knows. Not just Russia says this, and who knows.

    #73370
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Ok, no heat, no tension from my side. Just disagreement about Russia.

    “the Russians use all means of attack available to them to defend and expand their sphere. They are not provoked into it to act 2nd…they do what they are capable of doing, while also expanding what they are doing. They’re not fighting back as if under threat with the need to respond, they’re aggressive in the first place..”

    See, you are sure of this. I am not sure of it. I mull it over, but I’m not sure of it. How can we know that Russia would be doing what its doing if it didnt feel surrounded by NATO ? How do we know? All we know for sure is it IS being surrounded by NATO and this huge-amerikan-gangster state. And it reacts.

    So we disagree. You are ‘sure’ that Russia is not just ‘reacting’ and ‘fighting fire with fire’. And I am not sure. But i am totally open to the russian explanation that they are just fighting fire with fire, etc.

    w
    v

    I think both empires believe, at some level, they are righteously reacting to external threats. I think the powers that be in Russia believe this, and we do as well. We both have very long histories of this, though America is blessed with two oceans protecting its borders, and Russia has always felt threatened from the south and the west. It lacks those protections.

    (One of the best histories of Russia I’ve ever encountered is Martin Malia’s acclaimed (1999) Russia under Western Eyes: From the Bronze Horseman to the Lenin Mausoleum. I highly recommend it)

    Of course, there is likely a huge difference between public and private views. Do the Power Elite in either empire really believe each assertion of existential threat is legitimate? Or is it mostly a way of gaining mass support? Likely all kinds of degrees in between, etc.

    My take is . . . Russians have acted with extreme aggressiveness (as have we), but where to trace the whys is extremely difficult. I think it’s safe to say, however, that the West, going back to 1917, at least, has been in league to shut down left-populist governments in Russia and around the world, and Russians don’t forget these things. Now that the Russian government is hard right, a different dynamic is in play. But that memory is still there.

    I also think Americans forget that we forget everything, that our attention spans are almost non-existent, and our sense of “history” goes back months, while for much of the rest of the world, it’s millennia. We dismiss this, avoid this, or . . . well, forget this at our own peril.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by Billy_T.
    #73373
    zn
    Moderator

    But that memory is still there.

    The czar was an emperor. Empires are not gathered together by means of voluntary association. As a Ukrainian, I have all sorts of ideas about Russia’s past, and how it went from a formal empire to the held together by force empire by another name called the USSR. Once you start evoking the idea of long memories in that region, it goes every single direction and involves many different regions and peoples. They all have long memories. Most Ukrainians I know would not happily accept the idea that historical Russia was mostly on the receiving end of bad memories.

    #73375
    Billy_T
    Participant

    But that memory is still there.

    The czar was an emperor. Empires are not gathered together by means of voluntary association. As a Ukrainian, I have all sorts of ideas about Russia’s past, and how it went from a formal empire to the held together by force empire by another name called the USSR. Once you start evoking the idea of long memories in that region, it goes every single direction and involves many different regions and peoples. They all have long memories. Most Ukrainians I know would not happily accept the idea that historical Russia was mostly on the receiving end of bad memories.

    I’m not suggesting they were. I’m saying history supports the idea of an embattled Russia a lot more than it supports the same idea for us. While they have certainly dished it out, internally and externally, from the beginning of the Russian empire, centuries before the Romanovs, and the Romanovs continued this, the USSR continued this, and Putin continues this, they all could/can legitimately claim threatening encroachments or outright invasions from the south and the west. It’s not all imagined, or without provocation. And while I condemn their offensive actions to maintain or grow empire, then and now (including the interference in world elections), I also can’t help but compare it with our own, and I think it’s self-evidently true that we have started (and escalated) far more bloodshed, with far less reason, than Sarah Palin’s neighbor to her west.

    Annoying as this may come across, I think damning them both is far more representative of actual events than claiming one side is justified while the other isn’t. Where I differ from some public lefties is in this:

    I don’t think our being (arguably) far worse on the subject of wars, coups, black ops, forcing economic systems down the throats of the helpless, etc. etc. justifies Russia’s actions. I maintain “a pox on both houses” attitude and see no “good guys” in any of this.

    I can’t cheer on any of this from the point of view of smacking around American imperialist pretensions. I just see far too many innocent human beings caught in the cross-fire and want all the shooting to end. It doesn’t help to even indirectly cheer it on, in my view.

    #73381
    zn
    Moderator

    I’m saying history supports the idea of an embattled Russia a lot more than it supports the same idea for us.

    Well but see history also supports the idea of an aggressively expansionist Russia more than a defensive one.

    That’s one thing the two places have in common.

    As a Ukrainian might say to a descendant of Texas hispanics.

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