updated–Round Three? Robinson’s rebuttal to the rebuttal to the . . .

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  • #116877
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I’ve lost track by now. But I think he shreds the Rising — again.

    Debating The Right Versus Collaborating With Them A response to Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti. Nathan J. Robinson

    Coupla excerpts to get the Ball rolling:

    Fascist:

    The liberals are destroying this country!
    Socialist:

    I know!
    Fascist:

    They’re so weak. And elitist. They don’t care about the workers.
    Socialist:

    Oh, it’s so true.
    Fascist:

    And of course the media is complicit. They never tell the truth.
    Socialist:

    Never!
    Fascist:

    Meanwhile, illegal immigrants are taking our jobs and destroying the ethnic majority.
    Socialist:

    Wait, what the fuck?

    . . .

    Ball says Rising tends to focus on the areas the populist Left and Right agree on. The book is similar: A lot of it is targeted at corporate Democrats, “identity politics,” and the media. Ball and Enjeti’s unified “populism” is what happens if you try to forget the nasty bits of the Right and just focus on a shared disdain for liberals. And it’s possible to say that the socialist and the fascist at the bar “have a lot in common,” since they agreed until they disagreed. Ball says this about me: She notes that I admitted I agreed with 80 percent of what Saagar says in the book. But this is only because a conscious effort is being made not to talk about immigration, climate change, racism, drugs (Enjeti wants the government to crack down on pot users), etc. This isn’t window-dressing, and these aren’t side issues. These are matters of life and death for millions of people. When it comes to climate change, it’s a matter of life and death for the whole planet.

    I do not want to suggest that Ball and Enjeti are anything but sincere. I have admired much of Ball’s work, if none of Enjeti’s, and I think Rising has produced a lot of excellent material and filled gaps in the media. I do think it’s important to note, however, that the Hill is owned by a close personal friend of Donald Trump. And from what Ball says about the relative palatability of Enjeti’s politics versus those of the mainstream Democratic Party, leftists watching the show could very well get the impression that Donald Trump is more similar to them than Joe Biden. Nationalist racists like Carlson are presented as preferable to centrists, because they are part of the “populist” movement. I think it’s reasonable to believe that if the pro-Trump owner of The Hill thought Rising was significantly hurting Trump, it would be less likely to air.

    I’ve made it clear over and over again in this magazine that I believe in greater engagement with the right’s ideas. When I say I want “nothing to do with” them, I do not mean that I am unwilling to rebut their arguments, or even to have Democrats partner with Republican senators on things I care about. But we cannot just talk about “the areas where we agree,” since those are negligible compared to the areas where we really, truly do not. There is no unified right-left populist politics. Nor should there ever be.

    #116880
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    To me, perhaps the biggest problem, when it comes to thinking that leftists can align with the so-called “populist right,” is this:

    We don’t mean the same things when we talk about elites, workers, corporate power, the system, etc. etc.

    Not remotely.

    When the right talks about “elites,” they tend to mean cultural /intellectual figures, not billionaires, not CEOs, not the folks at Goldman Sachs or the Finance Trifecta, and they tend to accuse those “elites” of being “cultural Marxists” more often than not. And they see the Dems as supporting that “cultural Marxism.”

    When they talk about corporate power, it never means doing away with it. It always means changing management teams to the sort that fits their belief system better . . . See above for that, and throw in a heavy “Christian” element. More often than not, Dominionist.

    When they talk about “the system,” it’s the same. Unlike we leftists, they have no problem whatsoever with neck-breaking hierarchies or obscene concentrations of wealth and power in a few hands. They just want to be the folks with that concentration. We leftists want an end to the concentration, period.

    Trying to shorten this up a bit: We can never, ever join forces with the right because we simply want the opposite for the world in every way. We want an end to inequality, and a good chunk of leftists want an end to the ruling class, period. At least over time. The right wants a different ruling class overseeing the inequality that exists. They want to shape and control that inequality in their favor, and they are horrified by the idea of true diversity, equality and real democracy.

    I am honestly baffled at even the suggestion that we have “common ground.”

    #116881
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    As a rule I think it’s better to keep similar things in threads where the same conversation on the same topic just keeps going. Starting new threads drives other threads off of page one. There’s so much going on now, page one is just crazy with stuff!

    #116882
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Also, as George R R Martin says, Words are Wind.

    I have never seen a single instance of a so-called “right-populist” do anything but betray his or her “base” once they gain power. Of course, politicians betraying their campaign rhetoric is the norm. But in the case of “right-populists,” the betrayal is far more stark, treacherous and a 180 on everything they claim to champion.

    It always ends up, as Robinson mentions, being a sham and yet another way of redistributing wealth upward into the hands of oligarchs. And the kinds of oligarchs in this so-called movement tend to have the additional pathologies of weaponized racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and seek to aggressively shove them down the throats of “the people.” Those pathologies and their supporting mendacity aren’t in place of what “centrist” and “moderate” oligarchs do when they hold power or back it. It’s not in place of the damage that “center” does. It’s in addition to that. It always keeps the standard forms of imperialism and corporatism and propaganda in place, and adds the white nationalism to the mix. That can’t help but radically worsen the previous status quo.

    With the “populist right,” we don’t get some kind of trade off . . . like, no more corporate power, wars, coups, rendition, assassination, drone bombings, carceral states, etc. etc . . . That keeps rolling right along. They just add the obscenity of overt and covert white supremacy to boot.

    Again, IMNSHO, Robinson is correct. Engage the right in debate. But thinking we can or should form coalitions with them is dangerously naive.

    #116884
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    As a rule I think it’s better to keep similar things in threads where the same conversation on the same topic just keeps going. Starting new threads drives other threads off of page one. There’s so much going on now, page one is just crazy with stuff!

    Okay. If you want to move it to a better fit, I don’t object.

    I started this one cuz I worry that I’m being a bull in a China shop in other people’s threads, and I don’t mean to be. I don’t want my posts to end the discussion, and they seem to be. That might just be a coincidence. But, who knows?

    Anyway . . . if you want to shift this somewhere, no problem.

    #116887
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    As a rule I think it’s better to keep similar things in threads where the same conversation on the same topic just keeps going. Starting new threads drives other threads off of page one. There’s so much going on now, page one is just crazy with stuff!

    Okay. If you want to move it to a better fit, I don’t object.

    I started this one cuz I worry that I’m being a bull in a China shop in other people’s threads, and I don’t mean to be. I don’t want my posts to end the discussion, and they seem to be. That might just be a coincidence. But, who knows?

    Anyway . . . if you want to shift this somewhere, no problem.

    Problem is I can’t move posts. I have to ask people to do it themselves (though it’s easy–all people have to do to move a post is copy it then re-post it in a new place.)

    Never, ever, ever worry about being what you called “a bull in a china shop.” Just post! I would not say your posts end discussions, it ain’t like that.

    #116890
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    As a rule I think it’s better to keep similar things in threads where the same conversation on the same topic just keeps going. Starting new threads drives other threads off of page one. There’s so much going on now, page one is just crazy with stuff!

    Okay. If you want to move it to a better fit, I don’t object.

    I started this one cuz I worry that I’m being a bull in a China shop in other people’s threads, and I don’t mean to be. I don’t want my posts to end the discussion, and they seem to be. That might just be a coincidence. But, who knows?

    Anyway . . . if you want to shift this somewhere, no problem.

    Problem is I can’t move posts. I have to ask people to do it themselves (though it’s easy–all people have to do to move a post is copy it then re-post it in a new place.)

    Never, ever, ever worry about being what you called “a bull in a china shop.” Just post! I would not say your posts end discussions, it ain’t like that.

    Okay. I think I’m gonna call it a night, but I’ll try to transfer this to one of WV’s threads tomorrow, if he’s okay with that.

    Hope all is well.

    #116893
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Okay. I think I’m gonna call it a night, but I’ll try to transfer this to one of WV’s threads tomorrow, if he’s okay with that.

    Hope all is well.

    I would appreciate that. Here’s the thing though…I would say on this board (ie. the whole board, huddle board) no one owns threads. I know that’s an etiquette some places but here, we are all different drummers. BUT at the same time, it’s better to keep within topics and not proliferate threads about the same topic, if possible. Point #2 (better to have long threads then too many short threads) takes precedence over the idea of “ownership.” So if I start a thread about quantum gravity, and WV takes it over with post after post about how the word “quantum” is stupid, that’s fine.

    #116895
    Cal
    Participant

    The right is awful on a lot of issues–college tuition, climate change, taxing the rich, massive military budgets, health care, etc.

    But immigration is a tool the left should use to forward causes like climate change and taxing the rich to fund other programs. I don’t watch Rising much and I doubt Krystal Ball and the other guy have talked about overlapping interests in restricting immigration.

    But there are interests that overlap there.

    One is fighting for working people. The rich and elites are happy bringing in millions of poor people who work for crap wages and shitty hours.

    When I had some construction in my rental house done recently, who do you think my landlord sent over on a Saturday morning?

    This is what happens when you import thousands and thousands of cheap laborers. They work cheaply and shitty hours. Who wants to work 6 or 7 days a week?

    Right populists point this out all the time, but Robinson dismisses it as racism. Yes, that’s part of it, but there are some legit problems, I think, with importing cheap labor by using immigration.

    Rising should explore those perspectives because there’s an opportunity to help poor Americans and poor Central Americans I would think.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by Cal.
    #116898
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    The right is awful on a lot of issues–college tuition, climate change, taxing the rich, massive military budgets, health care, etc.

    But immigration is a tool the left should use to forward causes like climate change and taxing the rich to fund other programs. I don’t watch Rising much and I doubt Krystal Ball and the other guy have talked about overlapping interests in restricting immigration.

    But there are interests that overlap there.

    One is fighting for working people. The rich and elites are happy bringing in millions of poor people who work for crap wages and shitty hours.

    When I had some construction in my rental house done recently, who do you think my landlord sent over on a Saturday morning?

    This is what happens when you import thousands and thousands of cheap laborers. They work cheaply and shitty hours. Who wants to work 6 or 7 days a week?

    Right populists point this out all the time, but Robinson dismisses it as racism. Yes, that’s part of it, but there are some legit problems, I think, with importing cheap labor by using immigration.

    Rising should explore those perspectives because there’s an opportunity to help poor Americans and poor Central Americans I would think.

    Cal,

    My take is this: Robinson doesn’t dismiss the right-populist view just on the basis of racism. He dismisses them for a host of reasons along with that one. He — and I absolutely agree with him on this — believes they have no intention, whatsoever, of helping “working people” in any way, shape or form, and their track record all over the globe proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Their agenda has no remedy for the plight of the working class. None. Zilch. Zippo. In fact, their legislative proposals, executive orders and outright authoritarian reversals all directly harm working people, along with protecting and enhancing the power of the super-rich. They make centrist Dems look like working class heroes in comparison.

    IMO, the so-called “populist right” lies endlessly, and dangerously, and they use the trope of “cheap labor coming for your jobs!!” to pit the working class against itself. They do this to gain power, and they have never, ever worked to improve the lives of the 99% once they gain that power. If they have a problem with “elites” or corporate power or the ruling class, it’s only to the extent that they’re not sitting atop all of that. Unlike we leftists, they don’t want systemic change, or a flattening of hierarchies. They just want to be the folks on top.

    In short, I see the “populist right” as the enemy of the working class, black and brown people, and the planet. I see them as the biggest existential threat in the world right now — far, far beyond centrist/corporatist Dems. It’s not at all close, IMO.

    #116903
    Cal
    Participant

    He — and I absolutely agree with him on this — believes they have no intention, whatsoever, of helping “working people” in any way, shape or form, and their track record all over the globe proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Their agenda has no remedy for the plight of the working class. None. Zilch. Zippo.

    You are just wrong here. My wife and I make less than 100 K a year with 3 children. Trump’s tax cut definitely helped us. I think the Trump tax cuts, like nearly everything he has done, were terrible and awful.

    But many middle class families probably don’t feel the same way. The Trump tax cuts absolutely put extra money in their pocket and made life a little easier.

    I’m not sure what exactly “right populists” are and if or how they are different from Trump Republicans. But there are many of them out there and there is also an opportunity for the left to work with them to help working class and poor people.

    Imagine if Obama had negotiated with republicans on FOX for SOME of Trump’s tax cuts–maybe lowering the US corporate tax cuts to the level of Scandinavian countries–so that the US could make a big investment in climate change or making college more affordable.

    Or maybe the left should work with the right to reduce immigration if the US shifted billions from the military to helping poor people in central America and America.

    Maybe that wouldn’t work. But Krystal Ball is right: our country would benefit from the right and left talking and working together on some issues.

    #116905
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    He — and I absolutely agree with him on this — believes they have no intention, whatsoever, of helping “working people” in any way, shape or form, and their track record all over the globe proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Their agenda has no remedy for the plight of the working class. None. Zilch. Zippo.

    You are just wrong here. My wife and I make less than 100 K a year with 3 children. Trump’s tax cut definitely helped us. I think the Trump tax cuts, like nearly everything he has done, were terrible and awful.

    But many middle class families probably don’t feel the same way. The Trump tax cuts absolutely put extra money in their pocket and made life a little easier.

    I’m not sure what exactly “right populists” are and if or how they are different from Trump Republicans. But there are many of them out there and there is also an opportunity for the left to work with them to help working class and poor people.

    Imagine if Obama had negotiated with republicans on FOX for SOME of Trump’s tax cuts–maybe lowering the US corporate tax cuts to the level of Scandinavian countries–so that the US could make a big investment in climate change or making college more affordable.

    Or maybe the left should work with the right to reduce immigration if the US shifted billions from the military to helping poor people in central America and America.

    Maybe that wouldn’t work. But Krystal Ball is right: our country would benefit from the right and left talking and working together on some issues.

    Cal,

    A tax cut that includes rich people and corporations guarantees a radical increase in inequality. There is no way around that, simply due to the math/percentages. A tax cut for the working poor might help them keep a few hundred dollars per year extra. Rich people, OTOH, gain hundreds of thousands to millions of extra dollars. By definition, that widens the inequality gap. It’s inescapable.

    If Trump had truly wanted to help the working class via the tax cuts — and they’re other major problems with that route I’ll get into below — he would have limited those tax cuts to just the working poor and the middle.

    And where does the money for the tax cuts come from? The government has to borrow trillions to pay for them. Which means future generations have to pay more in taxes. And/or, right-wing Congress critters slash much needed social safety net benefits to cover the massive giveaway to the rich. In short, to pay for playing Santa Claus for rich people, the working class loses social benefits it desperately needs, gets deeper into debt, and those social benefits are significantly more important than a few hundred extra dollars a year.

    How does any of that help the working class or the middle?

    #116922
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Another way to look at tax cuts, as a supposed tool for helping the working class:

    The people who need the most help get the least. The people who need the least help get the most. It’s regressive to the max.

    The median income for an American is in the 30K to 36K range. It’s obviously more per household, cuz that can have several incomes at the same time. But the median for Joe or Jane is in the 30Ks. That person’s total taxes are usually in the 10% area. Cut them, and they’ll pocket a few hundred, at best. A Bezos, a Gates, a Zuckerberg, OTOH, will pocket well into the tens of millions, if not substantially higher. And when paired with corporate tax cuts, it’s likely in the billions.

    Want to help the working class? Don’t use tax cuts. Again, they’re regressive and grotesquely unequal.

    I’d rather see these changes, in no particular order:

    1. Guarantee a public sector job for anyone who wants to work, and at a living wage.

    2. Guarantee that all full-time employment is for a living wage; no exceptions.

    3. Set a max ratio for Ownership/CEO to Rank and File pay. Orwell thought 10 to 1 was fair, though I think that’s still way too high. But it would be a great start. The average right now? Well over 300 to 1. The CEO for Walmart makes more than a thousand times his Rank and File.

    4. Mandate revenue sharing. Kinda like the NBA does it.

    5. Do Medicare or Medicaid for all. That would save the working class many thousands per family just in premiums. If they fall sick, the savings could be in the hundreds of thousands.

    6. State college and trade school without tuition costs. Again, that could save parents tens of thousands a year.

    For starters.

    I’ve never heard anyone on the right say they’d support the above.

    #117079
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Kyle Kulinski weighs in.
    =======================

    #117084
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    WV,

    Thanks for posting that video here.

    Not sure what Robinson article Kulinski read, but his response wasn’t at all connected to any of the relevant articles in this case. His characterization of Robinson’s argument was basically a text-book case of strawmen. It surprised me how wildly wrong he was . . .

    First off, Robinson spent next to no time talking about Hitler or Mussolini, but correctly included them in “right-populism,” and by Kulinski’s own definition, they fit that to a T. They — and all fascist leaders — tried to appeal to a sector of their society that felt ignored by “elites,” and exploited fears of “outsiders” and “the Other” inside those societies. This is what all American “right-populists” do as well.

    Also, Kulinski is just flat out crazy if he thinks any right-wing rep would ever support Medicare for all, or unions, or a living wage, etc. Kulinski’s examples of where the left and the right can supposedly work together don’t exist in the real world. Hell would freeze over before you’d find a Republican willing to buck his or her party (line) on serious economic issues of any heft. And if hell did freeze over, it wouldn’t help we leftists one iota, because the vast, vast majority of Republicans would be rabidly against that deal and that lone unorthodox vote. And what would that lone voice want in exchange? More than he or she would ever, in effect, give up. How easy is it to claim to be for or against something, when you know it’s not going to go anywhere?

    And on trade? No right-populist wants change to benefit workers or the environment. Not a one. They’d be lefties if they did. They want change to trade deals to help corporate ownership even more. They want change to trade deals to liberate them from as many restrictions as possible, and to open things up themselves to join the Big Boys. They want change so they can sit on top of the heap, instead of floundering beneath them.

    Again, lefties don’t want there to be a heap, period. Right-wing beliefs are in total opposition to the idea of egalitarianism, and they’ll fight that possibility to the death, by any means necessary.

    (more below)

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    #117087
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    At roughly the 19 minute mark, Kulinski cites a Robinson tweet as if it’s crazy. Um, no. It’s spot on. It’s self-evident and utterly logical.

    The Rising spends almost all of its time attacking the Dems, and next to no time going after Trump — owned as it is by a Trump loyalist fat cat. If corporate controlled media has an impact on the content of that media, and it does, it obviously has an extra-heightened impact when coupled with directly partisan ownership. It’s just naive to assume it doesn’t.

    As I’ve mentioned before, we leftists need to go after BOTH parties, but also take into account the relative difference in current power dynamics. Given that our time and resources are limited, it makes sense to allocate those things based on current power arrangements and their effects, as well as looking at the future, etc.

    Who holds power? Where should the focus of our critique be? Again, it’s not an either/or. It’s a both/and. But the focus/time/resources should be allocated based on imminent threats and their repercussions, etc.

    #117089
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Also, I don’t remember Robinson talking about “gateway to the right.” I may have missed it, but I doubt it.

    And he never said that all right-populists are Hitler. Again, Strawman 101.

    Boiled down, Kulinski is talking about unicorns. Even outside of DC, you just don’t have righties who favor Medicare for all, unions and a living wage.

    Unicorns.

    #117100
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    =============
    The Rising spends almost all of its time attacking the Dems, and next to no time going after Trump — owned as it is by a Trump loyalist fat cat. If corporate controlled media has an impact on the content of that media, and it does, it obviously has an extra-heightened impact when coupled with directly partisan ownership. It’s just naive to assume it doesn’t.

    =====================

    Well, I have wondered for a long time, whether The Rising goes after the Corporate-Dems MORE than it goes after the Reps. It seems like they do, but I dont have any real data on that. And i just pick and choose which vids i wanna watch, so I dunno what is going on, on the vids i dont watch. But i ‘have’ wondered about it.

    Also, the ownership has bothered me. I looked up the ownership way back when i heard Bannon said the show “is the real deal.” Anytime Bannon is for something, its a bad sign 🙂

    So, I do wonder about The Rising.

    But then I consider the Pluses to having Krystal Ball on a popular show. I dont think i need to list them.

    All in all, I think there’s good points on all sides of this. I dont think either side can make a totally-winning-case.

    w
    v

    #117114
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    WV,

    Does The Rising see “right-populism” in the same way as Kulinski?

    He said there are right-populists who support:

    Medicare for All
    Unions
    A living wage

    Again, I’ve never bumped into one in any context or format, and it seems to go wildly against the right’s hatred of any public sector program replacing a private sector one . . . or adding regulations to businesses. But, I suppose pigs do fly in parallel universes.

    Anyway . . . what’s your take on that? Is he, perhaps, being far too broad in his definition(s)? What is “right-wing” about those three policy ideas, or the purpose behind them?

    #117116
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    WV,

    Does The Rising see “right-populism” in the same way as Kulinski?

    He said there are right-populists who support:

    Medicare for All
    Unions
    A living wage

    Again, I’ve never bumped into one in any context or format, and it seems to go wildly against the right’s hatred of any public sector program replacing a private sector one . . . or adding regulations to businesses. But, I suppose pigs do fly in parallel universes.

    Anyway . . . what’s your take on that? Is he, perhaps, being far too broad in his definition(s)? What is “right-wing” about those three policy ideas, or the purpose behind them?

    =================
    Well, there’s this:

    right-pops:https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/23/16643790/is-health-care-a-right-republicans-single-payer-medicare-for-all

    These are the Trump voters who believe in universal health care
    They aren’t the majority — at least not yet.
    By Dylan Scott

    “I do think that’s a human right to have access to health care,” said Kate, a 55-year-old with one child still at home. “It’s like having access to clean water, food, and everything. It’s a basic human right.”

    “Having basic health care, I think, should be something that a citizenship should provide,” 27-year-old Devin said. “If you have a sick community, you have a sick workforce, you have sick people. You have death. You have low productivity from it. So I think that as a step back from all of it, then yes, health care I think should be a right.”

    “I think everybody deserves [health care],” Cindy, a 45-year-old with a teenage daughter, said.

    We’re sitting at a table in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, talking about the prospect of universal health care. There’s just one thing about the people saying these words that might surprise you: Each and every one of them is a Republican who voted for Donald Trump in 2016.

    Fresh off the GOP’s failed Obamacare repeal crusade and amid the Democratic embrace of Medicare-for-all, we wanted to get a better sense of how voters really feel about the most ambitious health care plan out there: universal single-payer health care. The group’s moderator Michael Perry, who runs the public opinion research firm PerryUndem, started with this basic question: Is health care a right?

    Some of the answers didn’t surprise us — GOP voters still harbor plenty of animus for “Obamacare” and “socialism” and warned of the dangers of people getting health care who didn’t work or contribute to their society — but the handful who voiced support for universal health care are a growing minority of the Republican Party.

    The Republican Party made a full-throated effort to repeal the Obama administration’s Affordable Care Act, the most significant expansion of health insurance in 50 years, in 2017. But they soon discovered it was the single-payer aspects of the law that proved to be the most durable: Cuts to Medicaid and the rollback of Medicaid expansion were among the most politically unpalatable pieces of their plan. Most Republican lawmakers still supported it, but a few balked.

    Republican voters, as we discovered, seem to have a more complex view than just “repeal and replace Obamacare.” Some of them really believe health care is a right, a perspective shaped by their personal experiences with the health care system. They are starting to think, however reluctantly, that the government might be necessary to guaranteeing health care to every American.
    America’s shortcomings are driving some Republicans to believe health care is a right

    The idea that health care is a right has become a growing consensus on the left. Barack Obama famously used the line to defend the Affordable Care Act. And it is the fundamental argument behind Sen. Bernie Sanders’s (I-VT) Medicare-for-all plan. His revised plan garnered more than a dozen Democratic co-sponsors in the Senate earlier this year.

    Though Democrats are driving the popularity of universal health care, it’s not just Democrats who increasingly support this idea. The number of Americans who said they believed it is the federal government’s responsibility to provide every American with health coverage increased by 10 percent between March and July of last year, according to an AP-NORC poll. The Pew Research Center found the share of Americans who believe in universal coverage was at 60 percent in January 2017.

    Support grew from 19 percent to 32 percent among Republican and lean-Republican voters from 2016 to 2017 — outpacing the 8-point upswing among Democrats to 85 percent, according to Pew. Republicans who believe health care is a right are still a minority, but a sizable and growing one.

    So we wanted to go deeper. We pulled together two groups of eight Trump voters, 16 in total, for 90-minute conversations last fall about health care in America. We consciously sought an ideological mix of people: some at least receptive to the idea of a government-run system, others totally opposed.

    We found that long-held beliefs about America are a real hurdle for some voters when it comes to single-payer health care. But at least a few Republicans were starting to see the value of a universal health care program.
    What’s persuading Republican voters to entertain universal health care?

    What’s perhaps most interesting, based on our conversations in Harrisburg, is why some of these Republicans are coming to believe that health care should be a guarantee, not a privilege.

    Among Democrats, as pollsters told me earlier this year, supporting Medicare-for-all is largely a proxy for supporting universal programs, particularly with young voters.

    “When you say, ‘I’m for that,’ it says that ‘I’m for equity.’ It says, ‘I’m gonna fight back against the corporate establishment,” Robert Blendon, a professor of health policy and political analysis at Harvard University’s public health school, where he conducts polls on health care, told me. “They are not health care voters, but essentially it’s symbolic of these other things which appeal to young liberal people.”

    But among Republicans, based on our interviews, believing health care is a right and entertaining the idea of single-payer health care seemed to be founded on their own negative experiences with the current system.

    Take Kate. She didn’t like her current insurance, which she got through her employer. “The deductibles have just skyrocketed,” she told us.

    Americans like Kate are paying more out of their own pockets for health care, even with employer-sponsored coverage. The average deductible in employer coverage has increased from less than $600 to more than $1,500 since 2006. Since 1999, employee contributions for their insurance premiums have risen 270 percent — while wages have grown only 64 percent, barely above inflation.

    Employer insurance is still the bedrock of American health care, but it’s not quite the deal it once was. People like Kate have felt the shift.

    She and her husband already sometimes struggle to afford their mortgage. Then her son fell recently, and they had a $400 bill for the X-ray. “Not in the budget that month, but we have to find it because it goes to our deductible,” she said. “It’s a struggle.”

    She also knows people who have lost jobs and couldn’t afford insurance. Does Kate, who identifies as a “die-hard Republican,” therefore believe health care is a right?

    “I’m conflicted,” she said. “I’m truly conflicted.”

    Her thoughts are worth reading in full:

    Because you say the government shouldn’t be in medical care, but it is. We have Medicare. We have Social Security. We ultimately have it, for better or for worse, what there is. And the poor have it. The wealthy can afford it. So you’re talking about the lower- to middle-class people who are stuck in the middle, paying a large chunk of their income in taxes that they don’t get to reap any benefits from. I don’t want to say it’s not fair, but I don’t see any way out of that unless you go to a single-payer system.

    And I am truly, and I’ll admit it, a die-hard Republican in 99 percent of my views, but over the last year I have really come to think differently about the health care in this country, and I wonder about a single-payer system. Something similar to Canada’s.

    That was a repeated theme: People who had struggled in the current system seem more inclined to see health care as a right. Megan, a 42-year-old who works in retail, said she had seen her friends struggle to afford insurance, and she herself had gone eight years without coverage. She was on Medicaid now and getting ready to start a new job that offered insurance.

    So Kate, Megan, Devin, and others — “Yeah, I think every citizen should have an innate right to be offered affordable, quality care,” Tara, a 35-year-old victims advocate, said — are part of that contingent of Republican voters who believe health care should be a right for all people.

    They represent a meaningful shift in American health care politics. But they aren’t yet a majority in the ideologically conservative party.
    Other Republican voters are stuck on who really deserves health care

    These few are still, for now, the exception in the Republican Party. Two other strands persisted across our conversations with 16 Trump voters: A strict constitutional view says health care is not a right — and then there is the question of who actually deserves health care.

    “Well, you have a right for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” Dave, a 62-year-old engineer, said. “Where in the Constitution does it say you have a right to free food, free services, or free health care?”

    Charlie, a 42-year-old who said he was very conservative, agreed: “It’s not in the Constitution. Nowhere in there does it say, ‘I guarantee you can go see the doctor.’”

    There were the expected objections to the federal government running any kind of universal health care program: It’s socialism. The federal government meddles too much already. People want to have choices in their health care. They’ve heard horror stories about long waits in other countries. They’re worried their taxes will go up to pay for this new health care program.

    Throughout the discussion, particularly as the question of costs came up, these Trump voters returned to the same concern, which presents perhaps the most fundamental challenge to health care as a human right: Does everybody really deserve health care?

    Some of these folks didn’t sound convinced.

    “So if everybody’s paying the same percentage of tax, unemployed people are presumably gonna be free,” Dan, a 52-year-old school secretary, told us. “The more money you make, the more money you’re gonna pay for the same exact coverage that everybody gets.”

    Or as Kevin, a 37-year-old who said he liked his current insurance, put it: “My biggest problem is the people that don’t work, what’s the incentive? I’m skyrocketing to help pay for them?”

    It permeated the questions they had about a single-payer program.

    “So in this, what you just described, a payroll tax, anybody not working is not contributing at all to it? Is that accurate?” asked Danielle, a 33-year-old who said she was a strong Republican.

    When my colleague Sarah Kliff clarified that single-payer health care would be financed through a combination of payroll and sales taxes, Danielle added, “Except if you don’t have money to buy things, then you’re not paying sales tax.”

    This was a theme, again and again, sometimes raised subtly, sometimes stated outright. I learned that a sizable number of Republican voters are wary of a system in which people who don’t work and make less money would have the same health care as the people who work hard.
    Single-payer challenges what some people think America is and should be

    Medicare-for-all, health care as a human right — these issues are, for people like Rick, a 58-year-old who voted for John McCain and Mitt Romney before Trump, existential questions. America, to them, is not a country that makes no distinction between people who contribute to our society and the people who don’t.

    “If you take away all incentives to perform, if you take away Americans’ incentive to work hard, to perform, and to be a little better and not to look down, ‘I can afford this, you can’t.’ I mean, that’s capitalism,” Rick said. “If we tell everybody, ‘It doesn’t matter what you do, this is what you get,’ what do you think is gonna happen to us?”

    They aren’t necessarily persuaded by tales of woe from some of their fellow Republican voters either. The system is mostly working for them — all but a few have insurance through their work — and they have very fixed ideas about what is an American notion of health care and what is not.

    “I think every employee has a right to health care. We’re not ready for every American,” Rick says. “First off, what is an American? We couldn’t really afford that; we couldn’t bank on that. How can we implement that? Every employee that works in America should have health care, I think.”

    Megan, who had gone years without health coverage, interrupted and gestured to Cindy, who had earlier shared a story about a friend with children who was struggling to find work and afford health insurance.

    “So you’re saying that her friend, who is a mother of two, she doesn’t deserve it?” Megan said to Rick. “She doesn’t deserve health care because she doesn’t work? What about her children?”

    “It’s complex,” Rick offered.

    “I have a friend in the same situation,” Megan said. “She just got a job. She’s scraping things together.”

    “If you have it that way, now we’re socialists. That’s the way it is,” Rick said by way of a conclusion. “Where we’re at, it’s very complex.”

    #117183
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Glenn Greenwald added to the debate, with separate interviews of Nathan Robinson and Krystal Ball.

    In his intro, and subsequent questioning, he makes it pretty clear which way he leans, etc.

    #117186
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I hope WV and others jump in and express their views here.

    A few quick questions/comments, regarding the Intercept’s addition to the debate:

    1. Why overlook the rather important aspect of “the devil’s in the details,” and “context” when it comes to these rare cases of “progressives” working with “right-populists? As in, Rand Paul voted for massive tax cuts for the rich and corporate America. He always does. Why does Greenwald think it’s some triumph of this (supposed) new coalition when he — or any other Republican — says they oppose them in the case of Amazon’s HQ in NYC?

    Or, when a lone Republican says we shouldn’t escalate X, Y or Z war, battle, bombing, drone strike, but votes yes for 99% of the rest of them, and says nothing about Trump’s endless escalations and threats?

    2. And I’m puzzled by the claim that Biden, apparently, single-handedly is responsible for the Iraq War, and our current penal code, even though he never had the power to make either thing happen. He had a vote in the Senate. Last time I checked, it takes more than 50, and it was the Bush administration that decided to invade Iraq, etc. By all means, condemn him for his Yes vote. But Greenwald and Ball need to stop with the hyperbole, especially if they want others to stop including Hitler and Mussolini in with right-populists . . . which is actually an historically and factually accurate thing to do.

    3. I think Robinson just crushed GG in the interview, though NR is far, far better in print. But I wish he would have asked Greenwald several questions. Like, why does he think progressives can’t work with Dems on things like civil liberties and police reform, and can only do so with a few lone Republicans? Even those hated corporatist Dems have far better records on those issues.

    Also, The Rising appears to spend the vast majority of its time attacking those corporatist Dems. If there truly is “common ground” between the left and right forms of populism, wouldn’t they spend at least — at least — an equal amount of time going after Trump and the Republican establishment? If the problem is corporate-owned party establishments, wouldn’t Ball and Enjeti work together to go after both parties?

    They don’t. It’s primarily a vehicle to go after the Dem establishment.

    The attacks and the critique of that establishment are warranted. But the imbalance aids and abets the GOP. Of the two major parties, which is the one we leftists should be most concerned about currently? It aint the Dems. IMO, we should work to demolish the GOP and situate ourselves as the opposition to the rightful “conservative” party, the Dems.

    #117187
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I think Robinson is spot on when he says “right-populism” is a fraud. When you break down the actual deeds, context, details, and the massive internal contradictions, they don’t share ground with us.

    And zooming out some more:

    Isn’t it rather naive, if not arrogant, to assume that self-identified right-wingers have leftist views on economics? They’d never vote Republican if they did. And they’d attack and condemn Republican leaders, constantly, if they did, especially Trump. I don’t see or hear them doing that. The rank and file vote Republicans into power, year after year after year, while condemning “the left,” while repeating fear-mongering against the “radical left.” One would think they wouldn’t do that, at all, if there was supposedly this “common ground” and unity of purpose arrayed against “the Establishment.”

    And in DC? Why is it next to never that we read or hear of a Republican rep bucking the party? Or Trump, the head of the party? Or, McConnell, the majority leader? And that includes the supposed mavericks like Lee and Paul. Paul, the so-called “libertarian,” is one of Trump’s biggest enablers, supporters, defenders.

    In short, I think Ball and Greenwald, among other lefty media figures, have a major blind spot on this topic, and strike me as either dangerously naive or just plain ignorant. They’re being used. At the moment, I don’t want to entertain another possibility, but it sits in one of the corners of my mind, regardless.

    #117195
    Cal
    Participant

    Robinson’s argument sounds a lot like Trump and the republicans are crazy and unless they want to come to their senses, there’s no need to work with them.

    That dismisses many voters who voted for Obama twice. Ignoring and abandoning those voters because they voted for Trump seems like madness if you want to actually win elections.

    Robinson’s one dimensional characterization of right Populists betrays an incomplete understanding of some of these voters who don’t always vote for Republicans. If you want to understand right Populists I think you have to consider Thomas Frank.

    A key point of Frank’s is that Democrats don’t know how to talk to the working class who have been abandoned by Democrats since Bill Clinton.

    Yes, Trump was–and is–full of lies, but he still does a good job of appealing and talking to those voters, even if they are foolish to trust Trump and the Republicans. According to Frank, Trump deliberately echoes FDR’s own language at times and those Old School, New Deal Democrats like Roosevelt, Truman, and LBJ knew how to talk to rural voters in Missouri, Kentucky, Arkansas that Democrats NEVER win nowadays.

    Corporate Dems have no clue how to talk to those voters and Lefty leaders like Bernie aren’t very good either.

    Check out this from Harry Truman in 1948:

    Republicans approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home—but not for housing. They are strong for labor—but they are stronger for restricting labor’s rights. They favor minimum wage—the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all—but they won’t spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine—for people who can afford them … They think American standard of living is a fine thing—so long as it doesn’t spread to all the people. And they admire the Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.

    Can you imagine Bernie or any democrats starting off a criticism of Republicans by talking about farmers?

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by Cal.
    #117199
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Hey, Cal,

    Hope all is well.

    Robinson isn’t talking about Trump voters, when he talks about the supposed “populist right,” and he doesn’t try to “define” those voters. He’s talking about those in power, which includes Trump, and the fraud they consistently perpetrate on those voters. Compare, for instance, Trump’s deeds to his rhetoric and the fraud is beyond obvious. Compare his deeds to virtually any president in the last 100 years (or more), and no one comes close to his deadly and destructive actions, or his lies.

    And Robinson reiterated in the interview that he favors working with anyone who honestly seeks better working class/environmental policy, etc. He never said otherwise. He’s just realistic/perceptive enough to see that you don’t find that on the right, beyond extremely rare outliers, in extremely rare cases . . . and he rightfully asks what concessions do we have to make in order for them to join us. Greenwald and Ball seem to avoid the issue of concessions like the plague.

    Speaking for myself, I truly don’t see the need for “the left” to court anyone on the right. At all. It makes zero sense to me. The left of center “base” is larger (and ascendant), numerically, than the one on the right (which is dying out), and elections in a polarized nation are won via the highest “base” turnout. Appeal to our own base, get them excited enough to come out to vote, and we have next to zero need for right of center voters. And whenever the Dems try too hard to court supposedly disaffected right-wingers, that inevitably turns off too many left of center voters, for good reason. That’s exactly what happened when Clinton tried to peel off Republicans in 2016. More than 100 million voters stayed home, disgusted with both choices.

    In short, we don’t need the right, and I, personally, find their ideology beyond repugnant. I think it’s long past time that we stand on our own, make our own case, and stop trying to form coalitions with our natural enemies.

    #117200
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Another big ol’ irony here:

    In order to appeal to the right, the left would have to move closer to them on the issues. As in, to the center! To be more appealing to right-wingers, we’d have to be more like Biden!

    ;>)

    One of the biggest reasons why any “center” exists at all is to try to appeal to both the left and the right simultaneously. What magical force will enable the left to remain where we are, while gaining converts from the right the center can’t reach? It’s like someone in California saying “I’m actually closer to people in Virginia than if I were in Kansas!”

    It simply defies all logic to assume the left can appeal to the right by remaining true to our own principles, ideals, philosophy and policy agenda. There wouldn’t be a right and a left if that were possible.

    We need to remember that right-wingers think they are right on all the above, and that we’re dead wrong. Why in the world would we think they’d join forces with us without our moving substantially away from our own beliefs and toward theirs, etc. etc.?

    #117210
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    In short, I think Ball and Greenwald, among other lefty media figures, have a major blind spot on this topic, and strike me as either dangerously naive or just plain ignorant. They’re being used. At the moment, I don’t want to entertain another possibility, but it sits in one of the corners of my mind, regardless.

    ==================

    Well, I’m not sure who is ‘using’ who. Krystal Ball is becoming a mega-star on the internetz. I see this show as a stepping stone for her. In time she will have her own show, etc. I think she knows that. The show has given her (a leftist) a platform. Thats a good thing for the left in the long run.

    Second, it sounds like you are totally discounting one of her major points — Ie, Rightwingers live in bubbles (just like leftwingers and centrists). The show gives rightwingers their only chance to actually hear progressive talk. Perhaps that will translate into something good down the road as we see more and more close elections. I dunno.

    I think Nathan makes important points and I’m glad he’s making them. Gives everyone a chance to think about all this stuff. I’ve heard the same type criticism about Cornell West, btw. “He should have nothing to do with Fox News” etc. Bernie also got criticized for doing Fox shows.

    Basically I think these dynamics carry pros and cons. They carry both, in my view.
    You and Nathan see it as totally negative. I see it as having pros and cons and unknowns.

    I suspect in general ‘rightwing populism’ is indeed a ‘fraud’ as you call it but I also think there is contested ground around the edges. And in close elections, who knows how this all plays out. I dont know. Politics is messy.

    I dont have any final answers or finished-thots on this.

    w
    v

    #117212
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Well, I’m not sure who is ‘using’ who. Krystal Ball is becoming a mega-star on the internetz. I see this show as a stepping stone for her. In time she will have her own show, etc. I think she knows that. The show has given her (a leftist) a platform. Thats a good thing for the left in the long run.

    Second, it sounds like you are totally discounting one of her major points — Ie, Rightwingers live in bubbles (just like leftwingers and centrists). The show gives rightwingers their only chance to actually hear progressive talk. Perhaps that will translate into something good down the road as we see more and more close elections. I dunno.

    I think Nathan makes important points and I’m glad he’s making them. Gives everyone a chance to think about all this stuff. I’ve heard the same type criticism about Cornell West, btw. “He should have nothing to do with Fox News” etc. Bernie also got criticized for doing Fox shows.

    Basically I think these dynamics carry pros and cons. They carry both, in my view.
    You and Nathan see it as totally negative. I see it as having pros and cons and unknowns.

    I suspect in general ‘rightwing populism’ is indeed a ‘fraud’ as you call it but I also think there is contested ground around the edges. And in close elections, who knows how this all plays out. I dont know. Politics is messy.

    I dont have any final answers or finished-thots on this.

    w
    v

    Yeah, politics iz way messy. :>)

    Hope Krystal does get her own show, on her own terms, and no longer has to work for a rich-guy Trump supporter, etc.

    But is it really the case that The Rising is the only place righties can hear progressives? Are you saying they basically never take it upon themselves to venture outside their own bubble, ever? Or read outside it? I kinda question that, given years and years of debating with rabid righties on all kinds of different forums, including the “progressive” kind.

    (Splitting this into two, to make it easier to answer)

    #117213
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Anyway . . . would be interested in your take on this, or if you just think I’m misreading the Greenwalds and company:

    Listening to them, one would think that the only place “progressives” can find allies on important issues is on the right. We can’t work with “corporate Dems,” apparently, and must go to the Rand Pauls and the Mike Lees if we want to accomplish our goals. This is yet another view that baffles me, given the record on most issues via Congress and the Executive.

    I checked on the people who voted against the Iraq War, for instance:

    126 House Dems voted No. Just 6 Republicans did that. In the Senate, it was far more disappointing, but the breakdown was still considerably in favor of the Dems: 21 Dems, just 1 Republican, and 1 Indie.

    And votes in favor of more tax cuts for the rich and corporate America are consistently along party lines, with close to all Dems saying No, and pretty much all Repugs saying Yes. The Environment? When was the last time a Republican voted to preserve land, or regulate pollution, or even admit that Climate Change is real?

    The Dems, for all their faults and failures (which are legion), now have a party platform that includes a hike in the minimum wage to $15, some form of Medicare for all, or a pathway to it, free tuition for two-year colleges, with a pathway to four-year, etc. etc. They’ve always been better on Civil Rights by light years, as well as Civil Liberties, and are far less into Big Gubmint Law and Order shiite than the GOP — especially against migrants and dissenters in general. Their position on immigration is at least relatively sane.

    They never go far enough, of course. They don’t come close to that. But the GOP is consistently, aggressively cruel on all issues. The Dems aren’t.

    To me, leftists self-evidently are closer in ideals, principles, world-view and policies to the Dems than the GOP. Not close, but closer. There’s at least a fighting chance to click here and there with them on Big Ticket items. I don’t see that happening with righties, beyond lip service, or beyond their heavily funded attempts to get us to just give up, stay home, and indirectly help the GOP win more elections.

    #117214
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Oh, and forgot to mention a huge, huge issue:

    Health care. As we speak, the Trump administration is arguing before the Supreme Court to gut the ACA, which would literally throw tens of millions of Americans off their health care programs — in the middle of a pandemic. I haven’t heard a single Republican say this is wrong, much less sadistic beyond belief.

    I’ve been arguing with mainstream Dems for years about how much the ACA fell short, and how the Dems were chickenshits for not going for M4A. But compared with the GOP alternative, it’s heaven sent. Medicaid expansion, for example, literally saves countless American lives and keeps people from being thrown out of their homes and into the streets. That’s not hyperbole. I know this for a fact. And in the middle of a pandemic, when tens of millions of Americans have lost their jobs, which means they’ve lost their insurance, the GOP is trying to kill all of that, along with protections for pre-existing conditions. Again, this is flat out sadism, and I don’t hear a peep from Republicans saying it’s even wrong.

    Throw in the overall response to the pandemic, compare the Dems with the GOP on that crises . . . and it’s even more clear that we don’t have any real common ground with the right.

    Hope all is well, WV.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
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