Robert Reich: The Democratic Party Needs To Clean House

— X — wrote:

Mackeyser wrote:

I wasn’t condescending to you. I was challenging you on your points. I thought those were fair game.

Also, text is a tricky thing. I dunno if it was in the phrasing or how you chose to read what I wrote or what, but I can tell you that my tone wasn’t intended to be in the manner in which you received it.

Maybe that preamble was needed after all. As I said before, don’t confuse my stridency for authority.

Fair enough. And maybe I was being over-sensitive, because I’ve been defending my choices and my POV for a few days, across multiple platforms, and to all kinds of people (in person). I have a lot of respect for you, Mackey Mack, and for everyone on this board, quite honestly. You’re all very smart and scholarly. Like wv said, it’s difficult to keep our animosities in check when discussing politics, but I had/have high hopes for this board in particular to do just that. So, going forward, I’ll try not to read ‘tone’ into the discussion, and I’ll do my best to elucidate in the same manner.

Now. Let me address a couple of you retorts.

As far as any votes in the past goes, it’s awfully hard to judge them acontextually because in a lot of instances, they were symbolic votes, knowing either the Dems would block or Obama would veto. I mean, look at the “repeal Obamacare” legislation. On January 20th, the Republicans hold the House, Senate and Presidency. Are they going to repeal it on day 1? Nope. Moreover, you know have those same Reps who voted for repeal saying quite openly that it won’t happen for AT LEAST A YEAR. Why? Because it simply can’t.

I’ve often said that the Dems should walk out and let the Reps vote and just…go ahead. Simply abstain so that a quorum is present, but the Reps still have to own the vote. You’d be amazed at how often these “symbolic” votes where supposed sober leaders are so busy shouting are stuck with actually having to deal with the actuality of their ideas coming to fruition.

So, no. There is in reality ZERO chance that the Fed is audited. If I could bet, I’d bet everything I own including organs. Less than zero. It’s a private corporation and if the public actually knew how much THEY control the US economy as opposed to the President or Congress…well, it’ll never happen.

It’s hard for me to talk about things like abortion and marijuana because I’m such an Anti-Federalist. I mean, I’m a Vet and a US Citizen, but if I lived in CA or CO, I could use medical marijuana to alleviate my service-connected pain without much chance that using such would endanger my benefits unless doing so broke the already existing laws such as DUI, disturbing the peace, public intoxication, etc. However, because I live in FL, I cannot. My rights under the Constitution are DIFFERENT. I’m still an American, but because of this fucked up system, my rights AS an American aren’t based on my citizenship in full, but based on which state I live. Which is absurd. That exists in no other country on earth. Germans don’t live with different rights because they live in Dusseldorf or Berlin. Brazilians don’t have different rights in Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paolo. But an American sure as shit has different rights in all sorts of ways between Boulder, Colorado and Tuskegee, Alabama. So… I’m sorry. It’s just hard for me to even hear these “states rights” arguments because enshrined in them are so much inherent and system racism, bigotry and denial of rights across the board that even if none of that applies to an individual instance, it doesn’t change that it applies to the whole. So, yeah… sometimes I talk apples to oranges on these topics because I tend to want to indict the entire topic because I see the whole thing as complete and utter BS. I see Americans as Americans, but Federalism enshrines in law that we aren’t and can’t be fully Americans. We’re States citizens EXCEPT where specifically under the auspices of the Constitution. Which, imho, is some tired, 18th century horseshit. Ymmv. This is my baggage, tho. I know it cuz it’s one of “those topics” where if anyone says “states rights” the kids roll their eyes and leave the room. /shrug

As for destroying Islamic fundamentalism, we’re probably talking past one another. What I mean is that while you can destroy organizations, you can’t destroy what created them. As in…we still have white nationalists (Steve Bannon is the White House Chief Strategist…), neo-Nazis and white supremacist movements all over the world. So, can we defeat a Nazi army? Sure. Can we defeat White Nationalism or White Supremacy once and for all? Nope. Which is the same thing as saying we can destroy Islamic fundamentalism. Can we destroy ISIL? Yep, it’s an organization. And there are SMART ways to do that. One would be to stop killing innocent people indiscriminately and funding countries that sponsor terror (like Saudi Arabia). We can engage rather than demonize. Iran isn’t refining further nuclear materials AND we’re not party to starving Iranian children because we’re engaging with the Iranians now. Point is that in this fractured world, the way forward is to grow our positive relationships and to realize that there is no “other”. Iranians want the same things that Germans want the same things that the Thai people want the same things that South Africans want the same things that Peruvians want the same things that we want.

I think when the organizations that traffic in terror are conflated with the negative impulses and/or ideologies that lead to those organizations, we end up talking past one another. I think we’ve done a great job of eliminating the influence of the KKK in American politics (the story of that is fascinating tax law, btw). We’ve done a terrible job of eliminating racism or white supremacy or white nationalism in this country.

So if you had said, we need to eliminate Terrorist threats that are based in Islamic fundamentalism, I’d agree with you. Organizations like ISIL, Boko Haram and others absolutely need to be shitstomped and right quick. Beyond that, we have to grow as a species and a civilization and that’s going to take hundreds or maybe thousands of years, presuming we survive that long.

Yeah, I know Bin Laden’s reasoning. But we were cool when we armed Mujahideen groups to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. So we’re only evil when we’re not serving their interests. And this:

Zooey wrote:

3. US support of Israel and its illegal occupation and suppression in Palestinian areas.

Ironic. Non-support of Israel by the United States would likely lead to an escalation of settlement building in the region and over the green line. We’re actually keeping them in check with our diplomatic influence and military aid.

Zooey wrote:

Which serves my point. It isn’t religion we are fighting.

Yeah, I don’t know that I agree. With IS, it is religion we’re fighting. They’re not interested in diplomatic resolution. They want to establish a Caliphate and kill anyone who stands in their way. You really only need to watch some of the hundreds of videos online showing them drowning people, shooting them in the face so they can watch them plead for mercy with no jaw, burning people alive, wrapping them in explosive cord and blowing them to pieces, strapping explosives to children so they can blow up other Muslims who don’t agree with their ideology, etc., and they’re still inventing new and exciting ways to torture and kill people for entertainment and future propaganda (just like the Nazi’s). They’re recruiting for a holy war, not political reform (just like the Nazi’s). While it’s not the same ideology as the Nazi’s, it’s the same disease. And we can ill afford to take them lightly – you know, like a J.V. team. History has proven that you don’t let something like that fester and grow.

Zooey wrote:

That could be. I don’t know. But at the same time, our financial and military subsidization of them allows them to continue doing it. We have Israel by the balls, but we never squeeze them to encourage a two state solution, or any other solution.

I don’t think a two state solution is even a remote possibility.
“We want to wipe Israel off the face of the map.”

Zooey wrote:

Those are the people making the videos.

No sir. The propaganda films are, yes. But the random killings are from hand-held cameras and cell phones shot from crowds, and there are literally hundreds of them – maybe thousands. I can understand that you wouldn’t want to see them – because they are extremely barbaric – but it’s really the only way to understand what’s happening, and the only way to gain a full appreciation for what we’re up against. Throwing words at it like the left had (no offense) for all these years doesn’t help to illustrate it at all. Trump put a more graphic description to it, but that wasn’t even close to what a lot of us have already seen.

Zooey wrote:

And you just can’t kill everybody.

Says who? John Wayne would.

J/K. No, I think we’re in agreement. And it shouldn’t be our responsibility alone. We’ve trained enough people that they should now be able to train each other. And the Iraqis are doing what they should be doing in that regard right now in Mosul. We’re just lending strategic assistance via airstrikes and perimeter protection, and that’s the way it should be. And as we’re liberating those people, the first thing the men do is shave their beards, while the women tear off their face veils. The Islamic State had required both in areas they control, in accordance with their strict interpretation of Islam.