Riots helping Trump

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July 29, 2020 at 12:49 pm #118567
waterfield
Participant
How the nightly clashes on American streets benefit Trump

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-07-28/violent-protests-what-donald-trump-wants

By NICHOLAS GOLDBERG COLUMNIST
JULY 28, 20205 AM
An eight-inch hole blown through the wall of a police precinct house in Seattle. A courthouse set on fire in Oakland and the police station vandalized. Nightly videos of demonstrators clashing violently with police. Barricades in the streets, Molotov cocktails, tear gas, slingshots.

Regardless of who you believe is most at fault, can there be any doubt that these scenes benefit President Trump’s reelection efforts?

I can already anticipate the howls of protest from my readers on the left: I’m blaming the victims. I’m not acknowledging that the worst of the violence is coming from law enforcement. Federal troops are exceeding their authority. There are just a handful of troublemakers among the overwhelmingly well-behaved protesters.

OK, maybe so. But right now, what matters most is the defeat of Donald Trump, who needs to be voted out of office before we can begin to solve this country’s problems.

The trouble is, Trump has set a brilliant trap, and it won’t be easy to end this without his reaping the benefit.

Trump first began screaming about the breakdown of law and order weeks ago during the overwhelmingly peaceful George Floyd demonstrations. He was talking about anarchists and Antifa and about a “left-wing mob” that was going to bring the “bedlam in Seattle” to every city town and suburb in the country. It was a dishonest, hyperbolic, demagogic effort to scare voters, a Nixon-like appeal to the anxieties of a silent majority.

It seemed nuts at the time, but then he exacerbated the conflict, dispatching aggressive federal troops to Portland, where they are tear-gassing demonstrators and snatching people off the streets without warrants and tossing them into unmarked cars. Protests that were dying down were reinvigorated. And news reports suggest that violence and vandalism by protesters are spreading.

“This is precisely what @realDonaldTrump and his campaign were hoping for,” said David Axelrod on Twitter. “He’s an arsonist, not a fireman. He wants to stir violent protests to fuel his ‘law and order’ campaign ads.”

I called Axelrod, who served as chief strategist to Barack Obama on the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns, and asked him to elaborate. Axelrod noted that while he can’t get inside Trump’s head to learn his motivations, the violent images we’re all seeing are perfectly aligned with Trump’s advertising, which paints a dystopian picture of a country overrun by lawless mobs, with Trump as the “thin blue line” between anarchy and law-and-order.

In Axelrod’s view, Trump is focusing on the violent outliers in an effort to frighten suburban voters — including “soft” Republicans, Republican-leaning independents and others who voted for him in 2016, but drifted away in 2018 — and win them back into his column.

Unsurprisingly, Trump’s campaign is already (and dishonestly) accusing Joe Biden of “siding with criminals” and aligning himself with “violent rioters.” Anarchy and chaos, Trump says, is what we should expect in “Joe Biden’s America.”

Biden needs to make it clear just how ridiculous that is.

Of course he should defend the right of Americans to protest peacefully on behalf of racial justice and he should criticize the law enforcement overreaction, including that of the uninvited federal forces.

But he must leave no doubt that he condemns violence by protesters as well.

So far, Biden — the “moderate” candidate in the primaries — has been pretty careful to remain in the mainstream of the Democratic Party. When the calls came to “defund the police,” Biden said that was going too far. He also rejected the idea that statues of the founding fathers who owned slaves ought to be torn down. Now he should condemn violent protesters, because it’s both morally correct and politically important.

The sad truth is that Trump is in a strong position: If the violence comes to an end and all the protesters go home, he can say it was his aggressive, forceful response that shut it down and saved America from anarchy. If the violence continues, well, that’s even better for him — because his fearsome narrative of societal breakdown will be easier to sell.

For the demonstrators, the goal should be to take back the protests from those whose actions undermine them. Those who truly want to fight racism and reform the police don’t need to go home. But they — and Joe Biden — need to separate themselves from the violent subset that is abetting the president in his cynical efforts to frighten Americans.
- This topic was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by zn.
July 29, 2020 at 1:29 pm #118570

zn
Moderator

(W, we have to include links when we post articles. I put one in this time via edit.)

On the article. First off this idea that there are “riots” at crisis level in the USA is completely counterfactual nonsense.

There have been BLM protests in more than 700 towns and cities, many of them multiple times, with basically a few thousand protests. Pollsters have said there were anywhere from 15 M to 26 M people who participated. The vast majority of those were peaceful. And I mean the really BIG “vast.”

Calling all protests “riots” is bs. And acting like there’s this big national problem on “the streets” is hyperbolic nonsense.

Secondly the situation in Portland was this–a couple of square blocks downtown saw clashes between a few hundred dedicated militants and police. The damage? Graffiti. All through the rest of Portland peaceful protests continued. When the Feds came in, it escalated the situation, which led to more people, including groups like the Portland Moms, going there to protest the presence of the Feds.

Polls show the Feds being in Portland worked against Trump so as of today he is withdrawing them.

July 29, 2020 at 4:05 pm #118585

wv
Participant

Well, I disagree with the writer on a lot of things, as you can imagine.

But the PERCEPTION that lefties are ‘rioting’ and ‘out of control’ would indeed cost the Dems votes among the bourgeoisie. I would think. As I’ve said, before ‘Law And Order’ has always played very well with the middle-class.

I dont think the uprisings/protests/whatever are helping Biden at this point.

Then again, the Police and the Feds are not exactly the most beloved organizations these days in a lot of spheres. This is all purty tricky. But i do indeed worry about all the PERCEPTION of all this among idiot-americans.

The Polls are all stil… Biden, so far. So far. Fwiw.

w
v

July 29, 2020 at 6:18 pm #118591

waterfield
Participant

zn wrote:

(W, we have to include links when we post articles. I put one in this time via edit.)

On the article. First off this idea that there are “riots” at crisis level in the USA is completely counterfactual nonsense.

There have been BLM protests in more than 700 towns and cities, many of them multiple times, with basically a few thousand protests. Pollsters have said there were anywhere from 15 M to 26 M people who participated. The vast majority of those were peaceful. And I mean the really BIG “vast.”

Calling all protests “riots” is bs. And acting like there’s this big national problem on “the streets” is hyperbolic nonsense.

Secondly the situation in Portland was this–a couple of square blocks downtown saw clashes between a few hundred dedicated militants and police. The damage? Graffiti. All through the rest of Portland peaceful protests continued. When the Feds came in, it escalated the situation, which led to more people, including groups like the Portland Moms, going there to protest the presence of the Feds.

Polls show the Feds being in Portland worked against Trump so as of today he is withdrawing them.

The point is this is what the public is seeing. I fully understand that it isn’t what the reality is. Nevertheless it fits exactly what Trump wants the public to see and think. With the Feds leaving it also fits his scheme: “see this is how to gain control” of a bunch of leftist thugs”. No one can argue what is happening in Portland helps Biden.

July 29, 2020 at 6:33 pm #118595

waterfield
Participant

wv wrote:

Well, I disagree with the writer on a lot of things, as you can imagine.

But the PERCEPTION that lefties are ‘rioting’ and ‘out of control’ would indeed cost the Dems votes among the bourgeoisie. I would think. As I’ve said, before ‘Law And Order’ has always played very well with the middle-class.

I dont think the uprisings/protests/whatever are helping Biden at this point.

Then again, the Police and the Feds are not exactly the most beloved organizations these days in a lot of spheres. This is all purty tricky. But i do indeed worry about all the PERCEPTION of all this among idiot-americans.

The Polls are all stil… Biden, so far. So far. Fwiw.

w
v

I don’t trust the polls after 2016. Keep in mind there are supposed armies of Trump supporters that when polled say they are voting for Biden. It’s dirty but it could keep a lot of Biden supporters home on election day. Moreover, there are people who actually are ashamed to say they will vote for Trump when asked-because he’s such an ass hole- but in the privacy of a voting booth or at home with their own ballot will do just that. Because they think we need ass holes to run the gov’t. I’ve spoken to people like that. What is needed is for a huge turnout of young voters -those that supported Sanders but failed to show up in the primaries-and a huge turnout of minority voters. I think Trump still carries Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. I saw a bumper sticker just yesterday: ” socialism doesn’t work because it always runs out of other people’s money”. So Biden is a socialist?? Remember-we have an ignorant voting public. Not stupid (brain wise -just ignorant as to facts). Most people I know don’t read and really dislike politics thinking everyone is dirty and they all cheat. So why not vote for the A hole who will “shake things up”.

July 29, 2020 at 6:48 pm #118597

wv
Participant

waterfield wrote:

I don’t trust the polls after 2016. Keep in mind there are supposed armies of Trump supporters that when polled say they are voting for Biden. It’s dirty but it could keep a lot of Biden supporters home on election day. Moreover, there are people who actually are ashamed to say they will vote for Trump when asked-because he’s such an ass hole- but in the privacy of a voting booth or at home with their own ballot will do just that. Because they think we need ass holes to run the gov’t. I’ve spoken to people like that. What is needed is for a huge turnout of young voters -those that supported Sanders but failed to show up in the primaries-and a huge turnout of minority voters. I think Trump still carries Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. I saw a bumper sticker just yesterday: ” socialism doesn’t work because it always runs out of other people’s money”. So Biden is a socialist?? Remember-we have an ignorant voting public. Not stupid (brain wise -just ignorant as to facts). Most people I know don’t read and really dislike politics thinking everyone is dirty and they all cheat. So why not vote for the A hole who will “shake things up”.

================

The polls might be wrong, again. True. But these folks are professionals. They do study this stuff as obsessively as the CIA studies torture. So, while i dont have total faith in the polls this time, I think its ‘more likely than not’ that they are fairly accurate.

I’m more worried about flat-out voter suppression by the Reps. And of course the Covid-X-Factor as we’ve all talked about.

One thing in the plus-column is that a radical leftist, CIA-despising, Democrat-Loathing bastard like me is voting for Biden. I never, ever, thought i would vote for another Corporate-Imperialist. I swore i wouldnt. I voted for Nader and then Jill Stein. I wrote in Noam Chomsky once.

But Trump was just too much. Even for me.

So maybe, just maybe the progressives will show up for sleepy Joe.

If Trump wins, I may just turn off all my machines,
and live in the woods, and grow appalachian paw paws, and ramps.

w
v

July 29, 2020 at 6:58 pm #118598

zn
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

The point is this is what the public is seeing. I fully understand that it isn’t what the reality is. Nevertheless it fits exactly what Trump wants the public to see and think. With the Feds leaving it also fits his scheme: “see this is how to gain control” of a bunch of leftist thugs”. No one can argue what is happening in Portland helps Biden.

Well again Portland anyway is backfiring. You had unmarked cars dragging protesters off the street for interrogation, and you had Feds attacking Portland Moms. That did not play well.

I know the media want it to look entirely like riots, but, Trump overplayed his hand. He also overplayed his hand in Washington when the streets were cleared so he could walk out and wave a bible. That backfired too.

July 29, 2020 at 8:39 pm #118604

wv
Participant

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

The point is this is what the public is seeing. I fully understand that it isn’t what the reality is. Nevertheless it fits exactly what Trump wants the public to see and think. With the Feds leaving it also fits his scheme: “see this is how to gain control” of a bunch of leftist thugs”. No one can argue what is happening in Portland helps Biden.

Well again Portland anyway is backfiring. You had unmarked cars dragging protesters off the street for interrogation, and you had Feds attacking Portland Moms. That did not play well.

I know the media want it to look entirely like riots, but, Trump overplayed his hand. He also overplayed his hand in Washington when the streets were cleared so he could walk out and wave a bible. That backfired too.

===============

I dunno zn. I dunno. I am not sure why you are so confident the Portland thing will tilt against Mr. Law And Order.

w
v

July 29, 2020 at 9:36 pm #118605

TSRF
Participant

So tell me, WV, what is the difference between an appalachian paw paw and say, a new england paw paw? Do they have more heavy metals in them or something?

I hear you on the ramps, though. I love me my ramps.

Hate to say this, but I hope MLB totally blows up and has to cancel the rest of their season, then maybe the same for NFL. If NBA and NHL successfully do the bubble thing, and the other two fail, this just shows the whole idea of sending students back to school is more than stupid; it is down right dangerous.

July 29, 2020 at 10:21 pm #118607

zn
Moderator

wv wrote:

I dunno zn. I dunno. I am not sure why you are so confident the Portland thing will tilt against Mr. Law And Order.

w
v

I’m saying it DID. It DID tilt against him.

But memory is short and so maybe that dissipates.

July 30, 2020 at 1:39 am #118617

waterfield
Participant

zn wrote:

wv wrote:

I dunno zn. I dunno. I am not sure why you are so confident the Portland thing will tilt against Mr. Law And Order.

w
v

I’m saying it DID. It DID tilt against him.

But memory is short and so maybe that dissipates.

I think the NAACP might disagree with you. Here is a quote from the Guardian”

“The NAACP in Portland warned that the Black Lives Matter movement was being co-opted by “privileged white people” pursuing other agendas, such as anti-capitalism. It said they were playing into Trumps hands by provoking nightly confrontations with the federal forces”.

July 30, 2020 at 2:08 am #118618

zn
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

zn wrote:

wv wrote:

I dunno zn. I dunno. I am not sure why you are so confident the Portland thing will tilt against Mr. Law And Order.

w
v

I’m saying it DID. It DID tilt against him.

But memory is short and so maybe that dissipates.

I think the NAACP might disagree with you. Here is a quote from the Guardian”

“The NAACP in Portland warned that the Black Lives Matter movement was being co-opted by “privileged white people” pursuing other agendas, such as anti-capitalism. It said they were playing into Trumps hands by provoking nightly confrontations with the federal forces”.

I understand their fears and concerns but it is nevertheless the case that they are factually incorrect about the present moment and the effect the Feds being there has had (something your quotation simply does not mention).

That may have been the case before the Feds arrived–meaning, that the more disruptive militant prostesters hurt the cause–but once the Feds did arrive, and played things with a heavy hand (including attacking peaceful protesters like the Portland Moms), it backfired on Trump.

Which is why the Federal guys on the ground agreed to withdraw (under orders no doubt–they would not decide that on their own). In spite of all the blustering rhetoric from Washington, including the “not on my watch” talk from the director of Homeland Security, they agreed to withdraw. Why? It backfired on Trump.

It’s not hard to find the evidence of that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/support-dips-for-protests-but-many-americans-reject-trumps-response-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN24U1EX

according to a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll…[from] July 27-28…52% of American adults say they are sympathetic to those who are still gathering to protest the police treatment of minorities, especially African Americans…a majority of Americans remain unhappy with the way [Trump] has responded. The poll showed 54% of Americans disapprove of Trump’s handling of the protests. … Nearly nine out of 10 Democrats say they do not like the way Trump is dealing with the protests, and that has not changed over since June. … And 42% of Americans appeared to be suspicious of Trump’s motives related to his decision to send federal police into cities, saying that those agents were being deployed mostly “to further Trump’s political agenda.” Another 39% said the agents are “restoring law and order in major U.S. cities”

July 30, 2020 at 8:07 am #118623

zn
Moderator

Besides a lot of this is overlooking actual Portland history when it comes to racial issues.

I put this article in the Portland thread and I think it’s a must read if you’re interested in these issues.

ARTICLE: White as hell’: Portland protesters face off with Trump but are they eclipsing Black Lives Matter?
On another night of confrontation with federal agents, activists said their message was in danger of being forgotten

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/26/portland-federal-agents-teargas-protesters-black-lives-matter

THREAD: Portland, Oregon … protests & policing: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-nation-w-leaked-document-on-the-oregon-secret-policing/#post-118620

July 30, 2020 at 8:31 am #118625

wv
Participant

zn wrote:

Besides a lot of this is overlooking actual Portland history when it comes to racial issues.

I put this article in the Portland thread and I think it’s a must read if you’re interested in these issues.

ARTICLE: White as hell’: Portland protesters face off with Trump but are they eclipsing Black Lives Matter?
On another night of confrontation with federal agents, activists said their message was in danger of being forgotten

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/26/portland-federal-agents-teargas-protesters-black-lives-matter

THREAD: Portland, Oregon … protests & policing: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-nation-w-leaked-document-on-the-oregon-secret-policing/#post-118620

==============

Well, I’ve read all that, and I’ve read the polls and none of it is persuasive.

I think its very fluid right now. We dont really know for Sure, what all those white middle-class people in Swing States think of this stuff.

The ‘fluidity’ of it all makes me nervous. What if those Federal Storm-Troopers piss off some wacko-teen-‘leftist’ who then goes out and blows up a building. Ya know. The Law And Order thing is Trumps best chance. Now, it ‘looks like’ maybe he overplayed his hand. But…its fluid.

So, Waterfield and wv, will continue to bite our nails.

w
v

July 30, 2020 at 8:42 am #118627

zn
Moderator

wv wrote:

I think its very fluid right now. We dont really know for Sure, what all those white middle-class people in Swing States think of this stuff.

The ‘fluidity’ of it all makes me nervous. What if those Federal Storm-Troopers piss off some wacko-teen-‘leftist’ who then goes out and blows up a building. Ya know. The Law And Order thing is Trumps best chance. Now, it ‘looks like’ maybe he overplayed his hand. But…its fluid.

We’re just talking about completely different things.

You are focused on the election. I am not. It’s too soon for that. Here’s what I said in this thread about that:

zn wrote:

I’m saying it DID. It DID tilt against him.

But memory is short and so maybe that dissipates.

So nothing I am saying today has anything to do with the election. It’s waaaaaaay too soon for that.

So what AM I talking about?

Now. Sending the Feds to Portland backfired on Trump which is why he withdrew them.

Perceptions. The protests are not being hijacked by “rioters,” they are being hijacked by people who call them riots.

Portland. We’re scrambling around arguing over who said what about Portland AND that completely ignores and to an extent erases the actual history of conflict in Portland. So for example if you actually read the quoted NAACP guy on the situation, he’s not just doing this number where he says it plays into Trump’s hands. He has a much more complex, history based point than that, and IF we do not want to obscure what he is ACTUALLY saying, it behooves us to read it. That’s why I posted the article from the Guardian I linked. It had nothing to do with “the election.” It had to do with us debating Portland based on his words without us actually understanding what he is saying. Which in its own minor way repeats the very thing we are complaining about–hijacking.

…

July 30, 2020 at 9:49 am #118635

Billy_T
Participant

Exit polls in 2016 all but confirmed the polling prior to those polls. I wish the media would stop saying that the polling was all wrong four years ago. It wasn’t. It was basically just fine. It fairly accurately predicted the Clinton victory that actually happened in the popular vote, and the Clinton victory that actually happened in the swing states, if not for the massive voter purging there — see Greg Palast.

If the US were not the hegemon, if it were some “third world” nation instead, our elections would have been monitored internationally and confirmed as “rigged” by the GOP and Trump. No question about that, in my view. And he and they are doing it again for 2020, but on a much, much larger (and more violent) scale, given Trump’s power now.

Of course, Republican Comey, dropping the (bogus) announcement, with 10 days to go, that Clinton was under (bogus) investigation again — for emails!! — hurt the accuracy of the polling a bit . . . but she still should have won even the EC.

(Of course, he never told Americans that Trump was also under investigation. Logically, if he had, the 11th hour announcement about Clinton would have been pretty much a wash).

I can’t stand the Clintons, but I think it’s abundantly clear that if she had won, instead of Trump, we would have done most of the right things to get control of Covid-19, and our death-count would have been a few thousand, rather than 152,000 and counting. For that alone, it would have been worth electing a “corporatist Dem” over the monster Trump.

July 30, 2020 at 9:55 am #118636

Billy_T
Participant

IMO,

There is no way on earth Trump can win this election, if the election is even relatively fair. The “riots” he’s creating won’t help him. Nothing will. He has no chance whatsoever, if he doesn’t cheat, and he will cheat. The question is how far he goes. Rather, how far his enablers help him to go, cuz we’ve all seen he has no “bottom.” We’ve all seen there is nothing he won’t do to retain power. Nothing.

In my view, we don’t have to worry about “the riots” helping Trump. We have to worry about Martial Law, Trump’s control of the Post Office system, his use of armed thugs to shut down polling places, the whole nine yards. Again, he has no bottom. He’s a sociopath, the worst America has seen since Andrew Jackson.

July 30, 2020 at 11:28 am #118650

Cal
Participant

Billy_T wrote:

Exit polls in 2016 all but confirmed the polling prior to those polls. I wish the media would stop saying that the polling was all wrong four years ago. It wasn’t. It was basically just fine. It fairly accurately predicted the Clinton victory that actually happened in the popular vote, and the Clinton victory that actually happened in the swing states, if not for the massive voter purging there — see Greg Palast.

SOME polls were wrong in 2016. Polls for Wisconsin and Michigan both had Hillary up by at least 5 points in the polls just before the election. Polls in Wisconsin had Hillary up by 8 points.

Even if you count Republican voter ID laws and purging, those polls were wrong.

In Pennsylvania and Michigan more people voted for Trump than past Republican candidates. They just liked him or were pissed off at the system. Add in hundreds of thousands of people who voted Green or Libertarian and you can see why Hillary lost the EC.

Here’s a good article on the legit polling problems in 2016 and changes pollsters are making for 2020.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/isnt-hillary-clintons-polling/613690/

July 30, 2020 at 11:58 am #118652

Billy_T
Participant

Cal,

The key word in your response is “some.”

Polling for 2020, for instance, both nationally and per-state, has a range. Florida is a great example. I’ve seen Biden’s lead there, anywhere from three to twelve . . . and that’s in the same week of polling. It’s always been a range.

So the range of polling in 2016, as is the case every election, ran the gamut from nearly spot on to way off base. But in the aggregate? It was just fine in 2016.

As for more people voting for Trump than previous Republicans. That wasn’t the case nationally — he received just 26% of the electorate — even though it should be, given increases in population. When a politician brags about record vote totals, it’s usually nonsense, because it should be a record each and every new election. It’s a bad sign when the numbers go down, as they did overall in 2016, as a percent of the population. Roughly 105 million potential voters stayed home.

Again, Trump only received 26% of the total electorate’s vote. That sucks. Of course, Clinton’s tally was terrible as well, at roughly 28%.

Also, according to Greg Palast’s research, the voter purges in key swing states exceeded the margin of Trump’s victory. Throw in the rampant closing of polling places in likely Dem strongholds and the pre-election polling was actually too generous to Trump.

July 30, 2020 at 2:49 pm #118656

waterfield
Participant

wv wrote:

zn wrote:

Besides a lot of this is overlooking actual Portland history when it comes to racial issues.

I put this article in the Portland thread and I think it’s a must read if you’re interested in these issues.

ARTICLE: White as hell’: Portland protesters face off with Trump but are they eclipsing Black Lives Matter?
On another night of confrontation with federal agents, activists said their message was in danger of being forgotten

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/26/portland-federal-agents-teargas-protesters-black-lives-matter

THREAD: Portland, Oregon … protests & policing: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-nation-w-leaked-document-on-the-oregon-secret-policing/#post-118620

==============

Well, I’ve read all that, and I’ve read the polls and none of it is persuasive.

I think its very fluid right now. We dont really know for Sure, what all those white middle-class people in Swing States think of this stuff.

The ‘fluidity’ of it all makes me nervous. What if those Federal Storm-Troopers piss off some wacko-teen-‘leftist’ who then goes out and blows up a building. Ya know. The Law And Order thing is Trumps best chance. Now, it ‘looks like’ maybe he overplayed his hand. But…its fluid.

So, Waterfield and wv, will continue to bite our nails.

w
v

I don’t think the withdrawal of fed troops has anything to do at all with the public’s negative reaction to their presence and actions. In fact I think it plays right into Trump’s playbook: “see we stopped the leftist socialist thugs and now were moving on to protect the rule of law in Chicago”, etc.

Keep in mind there were 63,000 law and order adds put out by the Trump campaign in the month of July alone. These people are not stupid and they appear to know what Americans are afraid of. You are correct. Law and order is a huge trigger point for the American public.. Always has been and the Trump campaign is well aware of it. Right now, IMO, the continued protests do not help the BLM movement or Biden. Indeed, they are and will become a negative force. The ass-hole in the WH knows this.

July 30, 2020 at 2:49 pm #118655

waterfield
Participant

wv wrote:

zn wrote:

Besides a lot of this is overlooking actual Portland history when it comes to racial issues.

I put this article in the Portland thread and I think it’s a must read if you’re interested in these issues.

ARTICLE: White as hell’: Portland protesters face off with Trump but are they eclipsing Black Lives Matter?
On another night of confrontation with federal agents, activists said their message was in danger of being forgotten

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/26/portland-federal-agents-teargas-protesters-black-lives-matter

THREAD: Portland, Oregon … protests & policing: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/the-nation-w-leaked-document-on-the-oregon-secret-policing/#post-118620

==============

Well, I’ve read all that, and I’ve read the polls and none of it is persuasive.

I think its very fluid right now. We dont really know for Sure, what all those white middle-class people in Swing States think of this stuff.

The ‘fluidity’ of it all makes me nervous. What if those Federal Storm-Troopers piss off some wacko-teen-‘leftist’ who then goes out and blows up a building. Ya know. The Law And Order thing is Trumps best chance. Now, it ‘looks like’ maybe he overplayed his hand. But…its fluid.

So, Waterfield and wv, will continue to bite our nails.

w
v

Trump’s campaign has 63,000 law and order adds in the month of July alone. These people are not stupid when it comes to reading the American voters. So yes I will continue to bite my nails.

July 30, 2020 at 3:02 pm #118661

zn
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

I don’t think the withdrawal of fed troops has anything to do at all with the public’s negative reaction to their presence and actions. In fact I think it plays right into Trump’s playbook: “see we stopped the leftist socialist thugs and now were moving on to protect the rule of law in Chicago”, etc.

Right now, IMO, the continued protests do not help the BLM movement or Biden. Indeed, they are and will become a negative force. The ass-hole in the WH knows this.

You seem to be conflating “law and order issues” with “continued protests.” The protests are continuing all over the country, W, they just don’t get the same press the Portland/Seattle type violent conflicts do. I mean if you don’t want the law and order thing to gain ground, it helps if you don’t do the protests=riots equivalence thing yourself. That would be YOU falling for the law and order message.

In terms of portraying Portland as a win and that being the reason for the withdrawal, I haven’t seen that message. It looks like they are playing the withdrawal down in fact.

July 30, 2020 at 4:54 pm #118668

zn
Moderator

The president’s campaign has aired 63,000 ads about crime and zero ads about coronavirus this month. https://t.co/B4f76EuKoY

— HuffPost (@HuffPost) July 30, 2020

July 31, 2020 at 4:20 pm #118691

waterfield
Participant

Before this is over Trump will have convinced the “deplorables” and those on the lower end of the brain stem that only his law and order will prevent those leftist thugs from breaking into your home, stealing your guns, raping your wife, and killing all your kids.

Why even give him that path.

July 31, 2020 at 4:42 pm #118692

zn
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

Before this is over Trump will have convinced the “deplorables” and those on the lower end of the brain stem that only his law and order will prevent those leftist thugs from breaking into your home, stealing your guns, raping your wife, and killing all your kids.

Why even give him that path.

So your message to the few hundred militant protesters in Seattle and Portland is, stop he’s going to take advantage of you.

Another possibility is to support people who get out the message that that little faction is minor, is not a threat to anyone, and trying to take advantage of them is just delusional nonsense.

July 31, 2020 at 5:03 pm #118696

waterfield
Participant

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

Before this is over Trump will have convinced the “deplorables” and those on the lower end of the brain stem that only his law and order will prevent those leftist thugs from breaking into your home, stealing your guns, raping your wife, and killing all your kids.

Why even give him that path.

So your message to the few hundred militant protesters in Seattle and Portland is, stop he’s going to take advantage of you.

Another possibility is to support people who get out the message that that little faction is minor, is not a threat to anyone, and trying to take advantage of them is just delusional nonsense.

You have more faith than I do that at least half the voting public will believe that Trump’s law and order tactics are “nonsense”. Your arguing with me as if I don’t think his tactics are nonsense. What I’m arguing is that enough people in this country will buy into it and this coming election has many potholes for Biden and this is one. I don’t think Biden can convince anyone otherwise. The more that protests turn into violence -no matter that its a minority who are violent-the more difficult it will be for Biden. I don’t think those who attempt to burn down federal buildings and small businesses, that people have worked hard for, even have a clue about the impact on Biden. Or if they do-they simply don’t care because for them its burn the whole system down since its rotten.

July 31, 2020 at 6:21 pm #118703

zn
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

You have more faith than I do that at least half the voting public will believe that Trump’s law and order tactics are “nonsense”.

They already do. And me saying that has nothing to do with surmise, faith, guessing, or projecting assumptions. That’s just how things are actually going.

from https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-07-31/trumps-law-and-order-approach-falls-flat-poll

AMERICANS HAVE A DIM view of president Donald Trump’s crackdown on protests against racial inequality, with 36% approving of the president’s handling of the issue he has cast as a matter of law and order, according to a poll released Friday morning.

…it is the pushback on the Trump administration’s aggressive crackdown on protests that is perhaps most problematic for Trump as he enters the final three months before Election Day.

The ABC/Ipsos survey found that 30% of Americans think having federal law enforcement officers respond to protests in cities makes the situation better and 52% believe the approach makes it worse. Another 19% say it has no impact one way or the other.

Further, just 42% of white, non-college educated Americans, an important part of Trump’s base, think Trump’s crackdown is making things better, while 37% of that group think the approach is making things worse.

… Trump appears to be targeting suburban voters especially by raising fears they will be inundated by agitators and criminals. Most polling, however, shows that Trump is losing support in suburbs across the country, which has put more states in play this fall.

You aim your critique at the small faction of violent protesters on the northwest coast. I am saying IF you even remain convinced there is a problem (and poll numbers do not back you), be part of the message pointing out that the VAST (very vast) majority of protests are peaceful, and that they continue peacefully. To do that arm yourself with info that focuses on the actual VAST majority of protests instead of letting tv news bludgeon you into thinking the graffiti warriors in 2 northwest cities really mean something.

August 1, 2020 at 1:36 am #118725

waterfield
Participant

zn wrote:

You aim your critique at the small faction of violent protesters on the northwest coast. I am saying IF you even remain convinced there is a problem (and poll numbers do not back you), be part of the message pointing out that the VAST (very vast) majority of protests are peaceful, and that they continue peacefully. To do that arm yourself with info that focuses on the actual VAST majority of protests instead of letting tv news bludgeon you into thinking the graffiti warriors in 2 northwest cities really mean something.

Listen-if you don’t think I know the real facts and don’t use everything I can to point out-precisely what you are saying- to those who believe what Trump is saying -then you don’t know me. TV news isn’t bludgeoning me at all. I know the reality. But I have a brain. What I’m concerned about are all the people that buy it and the more the violence continues-no matter how small it is-the deeper the quicksand becomes for Biden. For Biden to win, the violence-no matter how small-has to stop. If that means halt the protests then that needs to be done. Otherwise to many average Joes and their wives it will be like the Leonard Cohen song: “First we take Manhattan then we take Berlin”.

August 1, 2020 at 2:28 am #118727

zn
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

Listen-if you don’t think I know the real facts and don’t use everything I can to point out-precisely what you are saying- to those who believe what Trump is saying -then you don’t know me. TV news isn’t bludgeoning me at all. I know the reality. But I have a brain. What I’m concerned about are all the people that buy it and the more the violence continues-no matter how small it is-the deeper the quicksand becomes for Biden. For Biden to win, the violence-no matter how small-has to stop. If that means halt the protests then that needs to be done. Otherwise to many average Joes and their wives it will be like the Leonard Cohen song: “First we take Manhattan then we take Berlin”.

The violence (the small bit that actually exists) has continued and yet the majority does not see it Trump’s way, W. Our brains are telling us different things.

And why “halt the protests”–all of them!–when there is only a small faction of graffiti warriors in 2 northwest cities who are being represented as this massive threat to civilized life.

It could be that the right-wing playbook is outdated. A large percentage of people have shifted from formerly, just a few years ago, NOT believing that there are racial injustice problems with the police, to NOW believing precisely that. So maybe things are changing some.

So right now the people who do not believe the Trump law and order narrative outnumber those who do, and by a lot. I grant that maybe the current national perceptions might not hold. That’s possible. But it’s also possible that the ground really has shifted a bit, and that, as I said, the right-wing playbook is now outdated.

August 1, 2020 at 10:56 am #118730

Zooey
Moderator

waterfield wrote:

Before this is over Trump will have convinced the “deplorables” and those on the lower end of the brain stem that only his law and order will prevent those leftist thugs from breaking into your home, stealing your guns, raping your wife, and killing all your kids.

Why even give him that path.

Well…you give him that path because taking a stand against the police acting as unlawful executioners of black people is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

And even if the protesters all went home to deny Trump that angle, he would make up some other shit to stoke his base. It doesn’t matter. I mean…Caravan. Muslims. Socialists. Emails.

It doesn’t matter. They will make some shit up, and fire up the base.

So stick to doing what is right. Take a stand. Push back. I agree with zn anyway; I think he lost this round. He will be back, but he lost the battle in Portland to moms and vets and kids.
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