Goff or Wentz? Wentz or Goff? Der Wentz oder Goff entscheidung

things i like about goff.

first off he’s put up huge numbers already on a poor team. and he’s still only 21 years old. will enter season still being only 21 years old. that can’t be ignored. there’s still so much potential to unlock in him. he can add arm strength to an already strong arm. look at tom brady as a rookie and how his body developed now. i could easily see him adding another 15 pounds to where you don’t worry about durability.

as experienced as he is now, he can continue to hone his skills. he’s supposed to be a quick decision maker already. think about how much quicker he will be in 2 years when he will be as old as wentz is right now. that’s how young goff is.

the hand size worries me. i won’t lie, but i can look at two guys right now in the nfl. derek carr and ryan tannehill. 9 1/8″ and 9″ respectively. do i like goff more as a prospect than either of these guys. yes i do. do i like him more than tony romo whose hands are smaller than 9″. i do.

but when it comes to style. i still think i like wentz more. but i’ll be happy whichever way they go.

i just wish goff’s hands were a 1/2″ longer.

Carson Wentz or Jared Goff: Who will be picked first in NFL draft?

http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/04/14/nfl-draft-quarterbacks-carson-wentz-jared-goff

With the news that the Titans traded away the No. 1 pick in the 2016 NFL draft to the Rams, rumors are flying that a QB will be taken first for the second year in a row. Now, it’s time to speculate who will hear his name called first. SI.com’s Chris Burke and Doug Farrar debate between North Dakota State’s Carson Wentz and Cal’s Jared Goff.

Doug Farrar: O.K. Chris, it’s time to talk quarterbacks. And it seems that you and I see Carson Wentz and Jared Goff—the two highest-placed prospects in this class—rather differently. In my SI 50, I have Goff ranked at No. 14 and Wentz seventh. Where do you have them, and would you like to start out with a few thoughts on your obviously egregious rankings?

Chris Burke: Well, I have Goff at No. 14 and Wentz at No. 34. As that number indicates, I’d put a late-Round 1/early-Round 2 grade on Wentz. And I guess my argument would start with this: To some extent, I feel like there has been a rush to knock Goff because he comes from an Air Raid system and/or because he is on the wiry side. When I watch him play, though, I see more than enough to convince me that his game can translate to the next level, especially in how quick he is with his feet and delivery. That’s not to say that Wentz has no discernible NFL traits. I’m just less sure on the timetable.

So … convince me I’m wrong.

Farrar: Interestingly enough, we have Goff ranked the same, so I’ll start with him. My concerns with Goff don’t have anything to do with the Bear Raid (the Air Raid system that Cal ran under coach Sonny Dykes and offensive coordinator Tony Franklin)—NFL teams have learned to compensate for the limitations of their quarterbacks’ college offenses—or his build.

I find that he’s so inconsistent with his mechanics, and thusly, his ball placement. My NFL comparison for him is Ryan Tannehill, because I’ll watch him have these impressive stretches of accuracy to all areas of the field, and then things start to fall apart. He’ll throw to his receiver’s back shoulder. He’ll throw with anticipation, but the timing doesn’t really work. I’ll see him throw his guys right into danger over the middle.

While he’s praised for his game under pressure, I see plays where his clock speeds up too much, and he’ll make throws he shouldn’t. I also question his ability to throw into tight windows—not the velocity, but the timing and accuracy. For the most part, I think he’s a “see-it-and-throw-it” player who varies too often on timing throws. Whether that’s a product of his offensive system or not, I don’t know how much of that is fixable. He’s quick, yes, but too often, he’s quickly wrong.

Why do you have Wentz in the early second round? I obviously think he’s the best quarterback in this class (actually, I don’t think it’s particularly close), so tell me what you see to knock him down.

Burke: For starters (and maybe this isn’t totally fair), I do worry about the FCS-to-NFL jump for Wentz, especially when he is coming off a year in which he made just seven starts. He improved as a player from year to year, which is a critical factor, but the learning curve is going to be steep. Some of the issues you have with Goff are the same ones I have with Wentz. The latter’s mistakes do not strike me so much as poor reads or panic so much as just overconfidence in his arm, which is strong but not in the Brett Favre/gunslinger sense. A lot of the mistakes Wentz got away with at North Dakota State are turnovers in the NFL. I also think he will be limited as a downfield passer—the deep throws were better in 2015, yet it’s still a sporadic aspect of his game.

You also mention being unsure about the praise of Goff against pressure. I’m not 100% sold on Wentz’s footwork, despite the fact that he is an exciting athlete at the position. He can get out of sync when he’s outside the pocket; inside it, the whole process—from snap to read to throw—can be lethargic at times.

It sounds like I hate him as a prospect. I don’t, even a bit. I just think he is a project, hence the ranking. What do I have wrong about him?

Farrar: I think they’re both projects, and I wouldn’t start either one of them their first years in the NFL. I don’t think that first-year NFL quarterback exists in this draft class.

I get the thing about Wentz’s limited starts, but I would turn that around and point to how well he’s developed in such a short time. I mean, he had one season at the position in high school, and a couple of years as a backup, and then, there he was. I think that speaks to a natural affinity for the position. And I don’t buy the learning curve argument to the degree that it’s sold. If you watch the Wentz episode of Gruden’s QB Camp, there are a ton of passing concepts in North Dakota State’s offense that are pro-ready, just under different verbiages. Wentz ran multiple play-action concepts out of the backfield. He dealt with a full route tree. He made more than one read. He’s not as good at the read thing as Goff is at this point, but I have no doubt that he can get there, and NFL teams regularly adjust their reads to fit the abilities of their young quarterbacks.

I’ve talked to people in the know who have told me that Wentz’s reads are actually harder than Goff’s, so there’s that. I think he’s better at throwing to the point at which the receiver has the best opportunity to catch the ball, and the defender is at a disadvantage. I think he throws with anticipation more often and more consistently. Does he trust his arm too much at times? Sure, but he also makes some dynamite throws into tight windows. If I’m a coach, I’d rather have to manage that ability than have to try and create it out of whatever I have. Wentz takes more time to process, but he also makes up for it with a very quick release. Get him up to speed on the processing side, and there’s more to work with.

Where I agree with you completely on Wentz is that he’s not yet a consistent thrower on the run. He doesn’t square his shoulders to the target and has to make too many adjustments as a result, especially on contested boundary throws. That’s something he needs to sort out. As far as the simplicity of the enemy defenses, one could easily make the same argument about Goff. He regularly faced base nickel and dime defenses with little in the way of adjustments because the offense was so wide-open. I’ll also posit that Wentz’s strength of opponent debit can be negated to a large degree by the guys he was throwing to, and the guys who were blocking for him. When you isolate the players, I think Wentz has a higher floor AND a higher ceiling.

Burke: Well, I think Goff is closest in this class to being pro-ready (I’d argue No. 2 is Connor Cook, but that is another topic for another day). There will be bumpy moments with him, as you said, but circle back to my argument about the rapidity with which Goff operates when the ball is in his hands and that should translate. Will the decision-making be an issue? Possibly. I do not think he will be taken aback by NFL speed, though.

To me, Goff would fit best in a West Coast offense with some spread principles—that’s why I keep selling the fit to San Francisco. While he’s not “mobile” in the way that we think of Marcus Mariota or Cam Newton, he certainly has the quickness in his footwork to elevate a West Coast attack via rollouts and play-actions.

One of the bigger selling points I get from Wentz, at least in terms of comparing these two quarterbacks, is that he projects as a more across-the-board option. Ideally, I’d like to see him in a scheme that allows him to get out of the pocket rather frequently, either via run plays with QB options built in or boots/waggles off fakes. Think Adam Gase or Gary Kubiak, and that’s what I have in mind.

Farrar: Well, at least we agree on the scheme fits. Anyway, since we started this debate, the Rams have made a major trade to nab the No. 1 pick in the 2016 draft. We assume they’re going quarterback, and reports indicate that while they’re leaning Wentz’s way, they’re not completely decided yet. It seems that we’ll be arguing Goff vs. Wentz for the Rams, and the Rob Boras offense—whatever that may be. The Rams obviously feature their tight ends a ton, they love to run power, and Jeff Fisher has always preferred that his quarterbacks manage mistakes rather than amplifying them through the pursuit of big plays. Like it or not, as is the case with most defensive-minded coaches, he wants a guy who will run the system and transcend it in manageable bits and bobs.

Given those constraints, who do you think makes the most sense for the Rams at No. 1? I’ll still go with Wentz here. He ran all kinds of play-action and option stuff and he has experience with QB power. While both quarterbacks are mobile, Wentz is the bigger and better pure runner.

CB: I guess the question is: Has that been the Rams’ offense because they want it to be or because they couldn’t do anything else with the QB talent they have had? Given what we know, at least, Wentz probably is the choice here and you hit on the main reason I’d argue that: wanting to run power. If I’m choosing between Wentz and Goff to operate that style of attack—under center, RB coming downhill—then Wentz’s current skill set better fits the mold. He has experience doing that. Goff may be able to transition into those things (and probably will have to, to a certain extent) but the current Los Angeles offense is built for a quarterback more like Wentz.[/quote]

one thing about wentz. i thought he was playing under the same coaching staff the whole five years, but apparently i was wrong.

the defensive coordinator was promoted to head coach, and as far as i know, the offensive coaching staff was completely turned over for the 2014 season. so it’s quite possible that wentz had to learn a whole new system in 2014 – his first season starting. that would make his last two years that much more impressive although he was at least familiar with his teammates.

so that would be 1 year of starting experience in high school and then 2 years of starting in college with a new coaching staff and quite possibly a new offensive system. although i just looked it up. the previous coordinator vigen also ran a pro style offense. how different it was from the 2014 and 2015 offense i don’t know.

i also thought this excerpt was interesting from the above article.

Farrar: I think they’re both projects, and I wouldn’t start either one of them their first years in the NFL. I don’t think that first-year NFL quarterback exists in this draft class.

I get the thing about Wentz’s limited starts, but I would turn that around and point to how well he’s developed in such a short time. I mean, he had one season at the position in high school, and a couple of years as a backup, and then, there he was. I think that speaks to a natural affinity for the position. And I don’t buy the learning curve argument to the degree that it’s sold. If you watch the Wentz episode of Gruden’s QB Camp, there are a ton of passing concepts in North Dakota State’s offense that are pro-ready, just under different verbiages. Wentz ran multiple play-action concepts out of the backfield. He dealt with a full route tree. He made more than one read. He’s not as good at the read thing as Goff is at this point, but I have no doubt that he can get there, and NFL teams regularly adjust their reads to fit the abilities of their young quarterbacks.

I’ve talked to people in the know who have told me that Wentz’s reads are actually harder than Goff’s, so there’s that. I think he’s better at throwing to the point at which the receiver has the best opportunity to catch the ball, and the defender is at a disadvantage. I think he throws with anticipation more often and more consistently. Does he trust his arm too much at times? Sure, but he also makes some dynamite throws into tight windows. If I’m a coach, I’d rather have to manage that ability than have to try and create it out of whatever I have. Wentz takes more time to process, but he also makes up for it with a very quick release. Get him up to speed on the processing side, and there’s more to work with.

Where I agree with you completely on Wentz is that he’s not yet a consistent thrower on the run. He doesn’t square his shoulders to the target and has to make too many adjustments as a result, especially on contested boundary throws. That’s something he needs to sort out. As far as the simplicity of the enemy defenses, one could easily make the same argument about Goff. He regularly faced base nickel and dime defenses with little in the way of adjustments because the offense was so wide-open. I’ll also posit that Wentz’s strength of opponent debit can be negated to a large degree by the guys he was throwing to, and the guys who were blocking for him. When you isolate the players, I think Wentz has a higher floor AND a higher ceiling.

Zooey wrote:

snowman wrote:

I think they take Goff. California QB for the LA market. Can you imagine the the LA fans getting excited about a QB from North Dakota? No way.

Nobody cares where the QB went to college. And if they did, southern california isn’t friendly to UC Berkeley. So Goff gets zero points for that no matter how you slice it.

Smart kids go to Cal and Cal has a history of solid pro QBs, From Craig Morton to Bartkowski, to Ferragamo and A-Rod…

I think people should care where a kid played QB in college……I think the college the QB attends does matter…. e.g., name one pro QB worth a damn from Ohio State…. or for that matter from N. Dakota…….. you can’t

• This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by joemad.

Ourlads (Shonka et al) on Goff

Junior entry. Three-year starter from Kentfield, CA. First-team All Pac-12. Plays in the QB friendly pitch and catch spread “Air Raid” offense. A drop back passer from the shotgun who has good arm strength and knows his way around the pocket. Throws the ball on time and on target with good accuracy over his career. The lanky underclassman helped revitalize the Golden Bear program that had fallen on hard times by starting 37 straight games after hitting the field as a true freshman. The two-time team captain will look the rush pressure in the eye and make the clutch pass. Reacts well to pressure. Knows where he wants to go with the ball and throws the receiver open with good accuracy and timing. Keeps his eyes down the field. No pause in the pocket. GOod pocket presence and feel. Reads progressions. Keeps his feet hot and throws before the receiver is breaks open. Does a good job of changing ball speed and trajectory over the top of defenders. Good ball placement. THe receiver doesn’t have to wait on the ball and is hit in stride to give him a change to run after the catch. A quick snap wrist release with velocity. Steps, throws, and completes passes through small windows in tight areas. At his best when the protection is solid and he can step towards his target and throw. Majors in carving up a defense with short ball control passes from 6-10 yards. Spreads the ball around to multiple receivers who rotate into the huddle in a variety of sub packages. Can make the key throws rolling to his left. Will need to work on his 3-5 and 7-step drops to the trowing point from under center. Goff never played under centre and defense looks a whole lot different when dropping back and making your reads rather than seeing the field from a shotgun formation. The angular passer set 26 Cal records including career marks for passing yards (12 220), passing yards per game (329.7), and touchdown passes (96). He also set a pair of Pac-12 single season records in his final year at Cal when passed for 4719 yards and 43 scores. An eventual starter with the talent to contribute early in his career. As an added bonus, Goff as a pooch punter is a major weapon.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by canadaram.

Howie Roseman apparently doesn’t care, as he referred to the two quarterbacks as “vanilla and chocolate

Isn’t chocolate better than vanilla? Unless it’s vanilla with hot fudge…

Bottom line….fucking rookie QB that’s gonna be groomed by Case Keenum or maybe Nick Foles,,,, Holy Shit….

It’s exciting to get the 1st pick but I rationally think, WTF have the Rams done?

yeah. something makes me think keenum would make a great coach someday.