Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › Rams Introduce Quarterback Nick Foles
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August 6, 2015 at 7:58 am #28171AgamemnonParticipantAugust 6, 2015 at 11:59 am #28192NERamParticipant
Interesting choice of words here, at 00:26.
Snead uses the phrase “get rid of” regarding Bradford. As opposed to saying something like “we were exploring options” or “we decided to go in a different direction with the QB position”. Something like that.
I don’t know- maybe I’m being a little too picky, or reading into it too much. Just seemed a little harsh.
Get rid of, to me, means dealing with someone or something unpleasant, unwanted or useless.
Related to sports, I think I would “get rid of” a locker room cancer, or someone with repeated off field issues.
Again, maybe just me.
August 6, 2015 at 12:23 pm #28193rflParticipantWhat I noticed is different.
Fish said Foles fits our style of offense. Ho hummmm … Coach speak …
But then he said something interesting. He said Foles loves to put the ball down the field, and that we have the guys to do that.
Obviously, we have lacked arm strength with our 2 back ups. But then remember that meme of Sam checking down all the time. Sam COULD throw downfield. WE know that. But, boy did he love to check down.
Fish seems to like the idea of a QB looking for downfield throwing opportunities. And he insists–and I agree–that we have guys who can stretch things.
And that really makes sense, especially if you want to run the ball. With no downfield threat forever, we have had nothing to drive the opposition DBs and LBs back off the LOS. That hurts the running game as well as making it easy to blanket the receivers.
Interesting. I think that, if Fish gets his way, we’ll have a power running game AND a passing game that, combined, leave defenses in a bind: come up or get back? That’d be nice!
By virtue of the absurd ...
August 6, 2015 at 12:52 pm #28194NERamParticipantInteresting. I think that, if Fish gets his way, we’ll have a power running game AND a passing game that, combined, leave defenses in a bind: come up or get back? That’d be nice!
Yes, that would be nice. 😉 Been a long time, hasn’t it.
Agree with you also on the OL being the biggest unknown. We’ve seen what Foles is capable of, we’ve seen what the RB’s are capable of, not even including what Gurley brings, we’ve seen what the WR’s are capable of. If the OL can pull it together to produce a power running game and a passing game, coupled with a formidable “D”, I dunno, looks like a potential trifecta.
August 6, 2015 at 1:10 pm #28195znModeratorWE know that. But, boy did he love to check down.
This kind of thing is overstated, if you look at the numbers.
I’ve done the numbers a few times, with different measures. For example, I looked at the percentage of total attempts dedicated to passes of 31 yards or more, and then compared his percentage of long pass attempts to a couple of dozen other qbs. He was always at the top of the middle tier.
I also did the same thing and compared his percentage of long pass with the playoff qbs from last year. I include this one below because it’s easy to find.
Then there’s PFF doing attempts of 20 yards or more. In 2012 Bradford was 7th in passing attempts in that range.
What was missing in Bradford’s games was the medium and deep medium passes (11-20 and 21-30 yards). I always thought that was because of the receivers. Sure enough, when they signed Britt and Quick emerged, one big theme in Fisher’s press conferences and in camp reports last summer was that they were correcting this. They were, in Fisher’s words—and he said it often—“pushing the ball downfield.”
BTW it is true that Foles threw long a high percentage of the time, both in 2013 and 2014. Problem is, his accuracy fell off in 2014 on long passes. In fact when it came to that, PFF ranked him 26th out of 38 in the league.
Back to Bradford and the long pass. As I said there are several ways to do this, but one is to compare his 2012 numbers to the 12 playoff qbs from 2014.
Some set-up. I did this a while back—what I did here was compare the qbs of the 12 2014 playoff teams (with one substitution) to Bradford 2012. The substitution is simple–rather than count Arizona’s Lindley, which is kind of tilting the field a bit, I subbed in Brees. So really it’s 11 of the 2014 playoff qbs, + Brees. I compare them to Bradford in 2012 because that was his last full season.
Using espn splits, I look at 2 things per qb. First, how many attempts of 31 yards or more as a percentage of total attempts. 2nd, how many attempts of 41 yards or more as a percentage of total attempts. As a rule, I round numbers up.
PASSES OF 31+ YARDS, PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL ATTEMPTS
Bradford 2012: 4.9%
Playoff qbs 2014 – Lindley/+ Brees:
Newton 6.7% (with a caveat–he only hit on 4 of 30)
Romo 5.7%
Flacco 5.4%
Roethlisberger 5%
Stafford 4.5%
Luck 4.3%
Manning 4%
Wilson 3.7%
Rodgers 3.5%
Dalton 3.4%
Brees 3%
Brady 2.7%Bradford: less than Newton, Romo, Flacco, & Roethlisberger. More than Stafford, Luck, Manning, Wilson, Rodgers, Dalton, Brees, & Brady.
PASSES OF 41+ YARDS, PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL ATTEMPTS
Bradford 2012: 1.3%
Playoff qbs 2014 – Lindley/+ Brees:
Roethlisberger 2.1%
Stafford 2%
Flacco 1.9%
Newton 1.8%
Romo 1.6%
Brady 1.3%
Wilson 1.3%
Dalton 1.2%
Brees 1%
Rodgers 0.96%
Luck 0.6%
Manning 0.3%Bradford: less than Roethlisberger, Stafford, Flacco, Newton, & Romo. Same as Brady & Wilson. More than Dalton, Brees, Rodgers, Luck, and Manning.
One note. I think that Bradford did hold back on long passes if he thought they weren’t there, BUT as a rule that changed in 4th quarter game winning drive and/or comeback situations. Then he just threw. That led me to believe that his coaches said, play it safe until it’s time to cut loose.
However, even given that, he was never lower than average or even just average when it comes to attempting long passes. He was never top of the league but he was always just below that tier.
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August 6, 2015 at 1:13 pm #28196rflParticipantIf the OL can pull it together to produce a power running game and a passing game, coupled with a formidable “D”, I dunno, looks like a potential trifecta.
I think what I sense right now is an incredibly wide range of possibilities. A huge gap between this team’s ceiling and floor.
I can see why so many posters on this board more or less expect 10 wins, and not just because they feel it’s about time. There is the POTENTIAL for something special, with a defense that really could be elite, talent at RBs and receivers, a solid QB who could conceivably be more than that, and what MIGHT be a really talented OL. If it all gels into a positive synergy, then, yes, we might hit a trifecta.
But, that OL is awfully green. Foles is far from a sure thing. And as I have reminded us forever, that incredibly talented defense only lived up to its potential last year for less than half the season AFTER the campaign was lost. If the OL doesn’t come together–easy to imagine–Foles looks shaky, and Williams can’t figure out how to maximize the effectiveness of our talent on D (he hasn’t done it yet!) then, playing a very tough schedule, we could flail about yet again.
I can see us going 5-11. I can, And I can see us going 11-5. (Just barely.)
If I were a betting man, I’d bet virtually nothing on this team either way.
By virtue of the absurd ...
August 6, 2015 at 1:27 pm #28199rflParticipantWhat was missing in Bradford’s games was the medium and deep medium passes (11-20 and 21-30 yards). I always thought that was because of the receivers. Sure enough, when they signed Britt and Quick emerged, one big theme in Fisher’s press conferences and in camp reports last summer was that they were correcting this. They were, in Fisher’s words—and he said it often—“pushing the ball downfield.”
You and I have always agreed that “throwing downfield” is much more a matter of intermediate throws than of bombs. So, agreement there.
Now, as for stats … I dunno. They are affected by so many things. Being behind on the scoreboard. The effectiveness of the running game. Whether the passes are successful or not. Stats on a matter like this are an important part of the puzzle, but, in my view, not definitive unless they’re accompanied by in-depth looks at the variables that make up the overall pattern.
As for me, I feel pretty sure of what I saw. I saw a QB who checked down very deftly and very quickly. It really was, IMO, Sam’s safety blanket. He avoided big problems by checking down, and there were LOTS of series in which one desperately felt the absence of a downfield (intermediate) threat. Lots of completions that added up to very little.
In the end, what matters is Fisher’s perception. I think your point about his desire to push the ball downfield fits with my point pretty well. After the 1st year, he may have attributed it to WRs. Hell, we all did that. And the last 2 years were of course weird with the injuries. But I think it IS safe to say that Fish wants to push it downfield, he is tired of us not doing that–in part because of the back up QBs–and looking at Foles’ style, he really likes to see a guy who clearly WANTS to throw downfield and does so whenever possible.
Whether that view entails some impatience with Sam on Fisher’s part is hard to prove either way. I think it’s reasonable to think so, but it isn’t necessarily crucial. After all, Sam is gone. I think the comment indicates pretty well where Fisher wants to go and a sense that he would really have liked to go there a year or two back.
By virtue of the absurd ...
August 6, 2015 at 1:30 pm #28200znModeratorSnead uses the phrase “get rid of” regarding Bradford. As opposed to saying something like “we were exploring options” or “we decided to go in a different direction with the QB position”. Something like that.
That was not Snead talking about the Rams view. That was Snead talking about what OTHER teams were thinking. The way he talks about this, it all had to do with whether the Rams wanted a qb with a twice-injured ACL.
Snead says at the combine, he talked to teams “checking in.” “Like all trade talks go, they’re babbling. Trying to figure out if we’re trying to `get rid of Sam’ or not. They figured out that we really didn’t. That deleting him wasn’t going to be the solution. So long story short, the reason that made our trade the other day the right fit was the addition of Nick Foles.”
He does not say the Rams wanted “to get rid of” Bradford. He’s attributing that sentiment to the teams that inquired after him. Snead even directly says “they figured out that we really didn’t.”
So it’s subtle and embedded, but Snead does not say the Rams wanted “to get rid of” SB…that’s just how he characterizes all the trade inquiries that poured in at the combine. It’s the OTHER TEAMS trying to figure out if the Rams feel that way. Basically Snead says no, that’s not what we wanted…but then, when there was a chance to trade for ANOTHER starting qb, they were fine with that. I get the idea that he’s saying if they just wanted to get rid of him, they had plenty of chances. But the did not make a move until it was a qb for qb swap.
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August 6, 2015 at 3:05 pm #28204NERamParticipantSo it’s subtle and embedded, but Snead does not say the Rams wanted “to get rid of” SB…that’s just how he characterizes all the trade inquiries that poured in at the combine. It’s the OTHER TEAMS trying to figure out if the Rams feel that way. Basically Snead says no, that’s not what we wanted…but then, when there was a chance to trade for ANOTHER starting qb, they were fine with that. I get the idea that he’s saying if they just wanted to get rid of him, they had plenty of chances. But the did not make a move until it was a qb for qb swap.
Yer absolutely right. I totally missed that while watching the video.
Well, now that the sun is shining again, I can enjoy the rest of the afternoon. Thanks for pointing that out.
August 6, 2015 at 3:49 pm #28209znModeratorI think it IS safe to say that Fish wants to push it downfield, he is tired of us not doing that–in part because of the back up QBs–and looking at Foles’ style, he really likes to see a guy who clearly WANTS to throw downfield and does so whenever possible.
Yeah we agree on that.
A lot of it depends on Quick and Britt, though also we keep hearing that Foles has a connection with Cook too.
August 6, 2015 at 3:59 pm #28210znModeratorWell, now that the sun is shining again, I can enjoy the rest of the afternoon. Thanks for pointing that ou
I have been enjoying the outside too. But not as I would prefer.
I got a nice bargain on a cord of seasoned hardwood. Those kinds of deals are rare. I already have a cord but I also have 2 woodstoves, so you know how it is. I needed another cord. Getting a bargain sealed it.
The wood was delivered and…it;s not split. It’s chopped up–meaning it;s not just round logs—but not firewood size. No wonder it was a bargain. 2/3rds of it needs to be split.
Like everyone else I need this:
But I got this instead:
So now it’s this:
But you know there are worse things.
So I guess I am enjoying it.
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August 6, 2015 at 9:10 pm #28221znModeratorNow, as for stats … I dunno. They are affected by so many things. Being behind on the scoreboard. The effectiveness of the running game. Whether the passes are successful or not. Stats on a matter like this are an important part of the puzzle, but, in my view, not definitive unless they’re accompanied by in-depth looks at the variables that make up the overall pattern.
As for me, I feel pretty sure of what I saw.
Here’s why we need stats though. Because I feel just as sure of what I saw. What I saw was that the Rams offense, with Bradford, threw long at a fairly decent clip. I say this with all due respect, of course. But we just see this one entirely differently.
The numbers tell us this wasn’t simply because of being behind, or any of that. It was a regular and featured part of their game. I say the numbers tell us that because the stats I use are comparative. They look at percentages and then compare those with other qbs. Eventually comparisons like that even things out.
That’s the point of comparing percentages with other qbs. Every qb faces the same things—they are behind sometimes, etc. etc. etc–so all of that evens out eventually. And, because of that research, to me, I confirmed what it was I was seeing–that they threw 31+ yarders at a healthy clip. Not like the top 5-6 long ball passers, but just under that. 4.9% of attempts is actually a pretty hefty number. You rarely see more than that and rarely see it get beyond the high end of 5%. (Last year Newton reached 6.7% but that’s unusual. He also wasn’t very accurate with it.)
And in fact, word out of Philadelphia is, they wanted Bradford for his combination of a quick release and long ball accuracy. Kelly apparently thought Foles missed on too many plays like that.
The problem was, who to throw long TO. And they used everyone. Amendola in 2012, for example, has a higher YPR than any year for him before or since. That’s because, lacking options,they set up some long passes to him (one that stands out is the 80 yarder against SF that got called back because of penalty). When Givens was new and they could get away with using him (before teams figured him out), they used Givens. Etc.
In 2014—in terms of setting them up to go downfield using medium and medium deep passes, that was FOR Bradford. They finally had receivers in 2014 who could maximize that. Every camp observer saw them feature it. We saw it in the pre-season games when Bradford did play. Bradford was born for that stuff and what we did see he excelled at it. That was a regular motif in camp reports.
As I said, I always thought they avoided these medium range lasers before 2014 because they didn’t have receivers for it. Not Givens, Quick was too green, not Amendola, Pettis, or Gibson—it took (IMO) Britt and a matured Quick to set these up (though I think Bailey can do it too).
Back to 31+ yarders. There is only one period where they didn’t use the long ball much and it was the 1st 4 games of 2013. But that changed. When they brought in Stacy and went back to a play action offense, the long ball re-appeared. Meanwhile it was there in 2012. It was a core part of their offense…the Fisher/Schott thing was to set up big plays, and that included long passes.
Now it could be that Bradford — in the 1st three quarters — held back, but then to me, that was the offense. Not him specifically, but him in that offense. He could have, in other words, held back when he wasn’t sure of a receiver, and still thrown his fair share of 31+ yarders.
So we just see entirely different things on this one.
Though it’s about Bradford, which is history. That’s the same as discussing/debating Bulger at this point.
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