new relocation thread! starting with JT: Kroenke faces rough road out of town

[InvaderRam]

but also, zn. there were rules in place before that supposedly prevented teams from moving and they still moved. so am i now to believe that these new rules will actually prohibit them from moving? again maybe they will. but not for a move to los angeles. yes. a move to san antonio. to orlando. but not los angeles. i firmly believe that.

[zn]

Zooey wrote:

I don’t think either of those hold up, especially if you’re looking at contesting that in a court.

That’s where none of us know but it’s fair to speculate.

In terms of the court though…no. Nothing won’t hold up in court, because these are league-instituted rules internally governing a sports league. YOu sign on to those when you buy a team and not everyone just has a right to own a team in the NFL. They vet ownership. It is not free enterprise in the ordinary sense of that.

The internal governing of a league through shared and transparent rules is not something you can blow up in court….UNLESS you also want to jeopardize the league’s exemption from anti-trust law. Which would bugger them beyond belief.

So regardless what happens…the “won’t hold up in court” thing has nothing to do with it. The league is an association of owners with agreed upon internal rules governing ownership. Heck they even have the power to suspend a given owner (Irsay). The courts don’t apply here.

[bnw]

InvaderRam wrote:

normally i’d agree with you. and if this was a move to any other city. i’d believe it. but this is a move to los angeles. if it’s purely for vanity. if it’s just to squeeze a couple more million dollars a year out of us. if it’s to have superbowls. pro bowls. the draft. the combine. whatever.

i believe the nfl wants more of a presence in los angeles. yeah. it’s just a guess. but it makes sense to me. does it suck in a lot of ways. of course it does.

but yes. i would bet that the nfl would be willing to ignore its own rules just to do this.

if this was a move to san antonio. sure they’d enforce the rules hard. in this case, they won’t. and law enforcement will bend the rules if it favors them. i don’t think that’s impossible to imagine.

If Kroenke steals the team to LA then I hope his tax bill makes the hair fall out of his toupee.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[zn]

InvaderRam wrote:

but also, zn. there were rules in place before that supposedly prevented teams from moving and they still moved. so am i now to believe that these new rules will actually prohibit them from moving? again maybe they will. but not for a move to los angeles. yes. a move to san antonio. to orlando. but not los angeles. i firmly believe that.

No they did not have the same rules. The old rules gave them no enforcement power and no spelled-out consequences. That’s precisely what they added. If you violate those rules and the league doesn’t approve your move, you can get royally screwed. The option would be to leave the NFL entirely and start your own league.

So given the heavy enforcement power they gave themselves, the real question is whether the league will approve it, thereby making enforcement stuff kind of irrelevant. If you’re approved then obviously you didn’t move without approval.

Will he be approved? That really depends. It’s no more clearcut than anything else in this. Truth is…we don’t know on that. We’re all speculating when it comes to that part of it.

[bnw]

Kroenke should build the stadium in LA and lease it to the Chargers and Raiders while keeping the Rams in St. Louis until the day he sells the Rams to be able to buy the Broncos to have a monopoly of pro sports in Denver. Then he could spend more time in Aspen.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[zn]

bnw wrote:

Kroenke should build the stadium in LA and lease it to the Chargers and Raiders while keeping the Rams in St. Louis until the day he sells the Rams to be able to buy the Broncos to have a monopoly of pro sports in Denver. Then he could spend more time in Aspen.

Depends. Can you own a stadium in one city and a team in another. Isn’t leasing to another team basically a danger-fraught situation that raises all sorts of competitive advantage issues?

St.Louis Rams are playing the Chargers in LA. Suddenly that week there’s an issue with groundskeeping. Coincidentally. Etc.

[bnw]

zn wrote:

The courts don’t apply here.

Yes. What if enough owners want to keep the threat of an LA option alive?

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by bnw.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[bnw]

zn wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>bnw wrote:</div>
Kroenke should build the stadium in LA and lease it to the Chargers and Raiders while keeping the Rams in St. Louis until the day he sells the Rams to be able to buy the Broncos to have a monopoly of pro sports in Denver. Then he could spend more time in Aspen.

Depends. Can you own a stadium in one city and a team in another. Isn’t leasing to another team basically a danger-fraught situation that raises all sorts of competitive advantage issues?

St.Louis Rams are playing the Chargers in LA. Suddenly that week there’s an issue with groundskeeping. Coincidentally. Etc.

I don’t know. Does that mean it can’t be a two NFL team stadium?

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[InvaderRam]

well. we’re going to disagree.

i really believe the nfl will look the other way if it isn’t approved. in fact. kroenke would probably rather they not approve it.

[InvaderRam]

stan does want a soccer team in los angeles. that would be another option for that stadium. mls just doesn’t seem big enough though.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by InvaderRam.

[wv]

zn wrote:

Whats the downside? Why would owners vote against it?

It’s 1. losing a team in St. Louis, which they don’t prize as an outcome, and 2. whether or not they meant it when they put up barriers to lone owner moves of the Cleveland to Baltimore, Baltimore to IND type.

If #2 no longer means anything to them, then, so be it. But then why are those rules THERE.

Cause they are not going to have an easy time arguing that those rules are there for a reason except when it comes to Stan Kroenke. Even a socio-pathic billionaire team owner is going to notice the problems with that argument.

I dunno. Maybe, but maybe times have changed
since the 80’s and 90’s. Maybe they dont worry
about teams jumping all over the place anymore.

I also wonder whether this isnt a “special situation”
given the fact that the Rams came ‘from’ LA.

I tend to think Kroenke is indeed going to move
the Rams. (Didnt used to think that, but now i do).
I also think the NFL is going have to deal with that.
So they can either “fight him” on it — and incur
all kinds of costs and rancor — Or, they can “find a Way”
to make it seem all “nice and legal”.
So given their “rules” they are going to have to find a
way to “interpret” the rules in a way that makes it all
seem nice and legal. A “part” of that process is to
emphasize that this is a “special case” in that
the Rams have a long history in LA. That way the “rules”
still apply to other teams that might want to jump around
willy nilly.

They may end up changing some of these rules, btw.

w
v

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by wv.

[bnw]

If that is the case then it would be great to see the rest of the teams LA took from other cities return.

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[Zooey]

wv wrote:

I dunno. Maybe, but maybe times have changed
since the 80’s and 90’s. Maybe they dont worry
about teams jumping all over the place anymore.

I also wonder whether this isnt a “special situation”
given the fact that the Rams came ‘from’ LA.

I tend to think Kroenke is indeed going to move
the Rams. (Didnt used to think that, but now i do).
I also think the NFL is going have to deal with that.
So they can either “fight him” on it — and incur
all kinds of costs and rancor — Or, they can “find a Way”
to make it seem all “nice and legal”.
So given their “rules” they are going to have to find a
way to “interpret” the rules in a way that makes it all
seem nice and legal. A “part” of that process is to
emphasize that this is a “special case” in that
the Rams have a long history in LA. That way the “rules”
still apply to other teams that might want to jump around
willy nilly.

They may end up changing some of these rules, btw.

w
v

That’s what I think, too.

They will posture about caring about fans, but they don’t. And they want to be in LA, and they aren’t going to get a better deal than this. Seriously. Proposals have come and gone, and the two proposals that have a pulse have no team, and there aren’t any for sale. I thought maybe Buffalo could be a candidate, but they aren’t, now. And what has Spanos done? Nothing. What has Davis done? Nothing. What has Kroenke done? Well…

This is it. This is what they’ve been waiting for. I think the league would prefer at this point that owners own their stadiums. Then you don’t have this problem. It isn’t like Stan is going to move to LA and then in 15 years threaten to move somewhere else because he doesn’t like the stadium. This locks it up. Truth be told, I bet they would like every stadium locked up like this.

I’ve said before I don’t think that personal issues are going to decide this. They will get over the way he went about it, and they will spin some shit to make this work. I didn’t think that at first, but I do now.

[InvaderRam]

wv wrote:

They may end up changing some of these rules, btw.

i wouldn’t be surprised if they did that.

[InvaderRam]

It depends on whether the league believes in its own rules, and how much, and whether or not they are willing to live with the obvious “SK is an exception” thing. In other words, whether or not they will countenance obvious hypocrisy in the name of expedience for something they like.

yeah. i think they’ll learn to live with it.

[Mackeyser]

Yeah, Zooey.

I think in the end, the Rams…MAY… be in LA.

And the NFL will STILL build the stadium… and the Jags will move to St. Louis.

Hard on the locals, but the data shows that the fans have supported about the worst team in the NFL over that time better than a number of other cities.

What will be surprising will be if the Raiders actually move to San Antonio.

THAT may happen. Football in Texas is next to Godliness… for some it’s sacrilegiously above actual religion… If you thought Raider Nation was rabid in Oakland… In Texas? woof… Crazy squared… but I wouldn’t mind being at that tailgate for the homemade tamales… sales of Tecate, Dos Equis, and Corona would spike considerably. That is unless the tastes of Raider fans have changed over the years…

One can only hope Port-a-Potty technology has improved…DRAMATICALLY!!!

Worst smell I ever smelled wasn’t the tear gas I had to sample in the Navy… nope… It was from the Port-a-Pottys after the Raider/Bronco game at the LA Coliseum. Damn things were almost overflowing… /wretch and quite literally, LORD HELP those who couldn’t hold it… Just walking by made me gag.

Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

[bnw]

Mackeyser wrote:

Yeah, Zooey.

I think in the end, the Rams…MAY… be in LA.

And the NFL will STILL build the stadium… and the Jags will move to St. Louis.

Hard on the locals, but the data shows that the fans have supported about the worst team in the NFL over that time better than a number of other cities.

What will be surprising will be if the Raiders actually move to San Antonio.

THAT may happen. Football in Texas is next to Godliness… for some it’s sacrilegiously above actual religion… If you thought Raider Nation was rabid in Oakland… In Texas? woof… Crazy squared… but I wouldn’t mind being at that tailgate for the homemade tamales… sales of Tecate, Dos Equis, and Corona would spike considerably. That is unless the tastes of Raider fans have changed over the years…

One can only hope Port-a-Potty technology has improved…DRAMATICALLY!!!

Worst smell I ever smelled wasn’t the tear gas I had to sample in the Navy… nope… It was from the Port-a-Pottys after the Raider/Bronco game at the LA Coliseum. Damn things were almost overflowing… /wretch and quite literally, LORD HELP those who couldn’t hold it… Just walking by made me gag.

Maybe Cowboys and Texans owners won’t like additional competition so close to home?

The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

Sprinkles are for winners.

[wv]

Zooey wrote:

…….
….I’ve said before I don’t think that personal issues are going to decide this. They will get over the way he went about it, and they will spin some shit to make this work. I didn’t think that at first, but I do now.

Yes.

And ‘fairness’ aint got nuthin
ta do with the move ‘from’ LA
or the move back ‘to’ LA.

w
v
————————
“I don’t deserve this..to die like this! I was building a house”

“Deserve’s got nuthin to do with it”

(Unforgiven)

[wv]

Mackeyser wrote:

Yeah, Zooey.

I think in the end, the Rams…MAY… be in LA.

And the NFL will STILL build the stadium… and the Jags will move to St. Louis.

Hard on the locals, but the data shows that the fans have supported about the worst team in the NFL over that time better than a number of other cities.

What will be surprising will be if the Raiders actually move to San Antonio.

THAT may happen. Football in Texas is next to Godliness… for some it’s sacrilegiously above actual religion… If you thought Raider Nation was rabid in Oakland… In Texas? woof… Crazy squared… but I wouldn’t mind being at that tailgate for the homemade tamales… sales of Tecate, Dos Equis, and Corona would spike considerably. That is unless the tastes of Raider fans have changed over the years…

One can only hope Port-a-Potty technology has improved…DRAMATICALLY!!!

Worst smell I ever smelled wasn’t the tear gas I had to sample in the Navy… nope… It was from the Port-a-Pottys after the Raider/Bronco game at the LA Coliseum. Damn things were almost overflowing… /wretch and quite literally, LORD HELP those who couldn’t hold it… Just walking by made me gag.

Has there been talk about expansion
in NFL circles the last few years?
I aint paid any attention.

Maybe there’s a double-secret deal or at least
winks-and-nods to the St.Louis folks that they
will be first in line for the next expansion team
if the Rams leave.

w
v

[zn]

wv wrote:

Maybe there’s a double-secret deal or at least
winks-and-nods to the St.Louis folks that they
will be first in line for the next expansion team
if the Rams leave.

There hasn’t been any expansion talk. Besides…that would make the divisions lop-sided. Cant be having lopsided divisions.

I think St. Louis would be getting the Jagz. Or at least there would be some efforts in that direction.

[Agamemnon]

I would rather have the Raiders. George Blanda. 😉

Agamemnon

[InvaderRam]

i was just reading about the jaguars lease agreement with jacksonville.

http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2011-11-30/story/jaguars-lease-makes-it-costly-leave-jacksonville-2030

there are ways they can get out of their lease agreement which lasts until 2030.

maybe khan gets st. louis to pay 100 million dollars to get out of their lease after the rams build their stadium.

[wv]

InvaderRam wrote:

i was just reading about the jaguars lease agreement with jacksonville.

http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2011-11-30/story/jaguars-lease-makes-it-costly-leave-jacksonville-2030

there are ways they can get out of their lease agreement which lasts until 2030.

maybe khan gets st. louis to pay 100 million dollars to get out of their lease after the rams build their stadium.

But then the Jacksonville fans
are screwed.
And Peace and Justice still elude us.

Cant you think of a win, win, win
solution?

w
v

[Zooey]

You know what I was just thinking. The peacock proposal was very careful in word choice. They pitched the stadium to the NFL. They clearly are thinking post-Rams. Not that they want the Rams to leave, or believe it is a done deal, but they are preparing for that possibility.

And the Jags make a lot of sense.

A twofer is a good possibility here.

[InvaderRam]

we all realize that this is just a silly game and tell the owners and players to go screw themselves?

[InvaderRam]

seriously though. soccer is immensely popular in st. louis. it’d be nice if they finally got that mls team they’ve been pining for. mls has been talking expansion. and i think they’d do real well in st. louis.

[zn]

wv wrote:

But then the Jacksonville fans
are screwed.

Cant you think of a win, win, win
solution?

w
v

Yes that;s it right there.

[Agamemnon]

OK, it is Jacksonville. Then we sign Tebow and hire Martz. 😉

Agamemnon

[InvaderRam]

someday. they will make a documentary about this. i wonder if we’ll learn anything from it.

[zn]

I don’t know why this hasn’t occurred to anyone yet.

But all of this is pretty clearly Bulger’s fault.

Yeah I know, sometimes the obvious answer is the hardest to find.

[Author]

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