McVay best Rams coach ever?

zn wrote:

This was in another thread but I wondered if it would make a topic thread in its own right. My personal take is that this is very nuanced. Vermeil’s accomplishment is that he rebuilt the team he inherited in 97. Rebuilt it from the ground up, including finding a franchise qb in Warner. And it was all him doing that. Later, when Armey and Martz were in charge of personnel, they began the long decline that led to years of a championship team unravelling. Vermeil also made collossal errors like sticking with Banks and Philips too long. Plus, as Zooey points out, he left. But then at the same time the team he built was solid in every aspect–offense, defense, and special teams. McVay inherited a ready to go team in 2017 that just needed a few pieces, most notably a left OT and some receivers. He brought a great culture (so did Vermeil) and he won a super bowl with bold moves like trading for Stafford. I don’t put 2023 all on McVay though–if anything, the more McV delegates personnel acquisition the better the Rams are at it. And it’s not just Snead as a “maestro GM” type. More than that, Snead is an organizer. He organized college scouting and pro-personnel departments that pretty much supplied all the newcomers they found for the 2023 season. For example, are the 2023 Rams a wild card team without Williams? I don’t think that McVay is the guy who found Williams. I think guys like Williams are the result of the personnel acquisition depts. Snead built. Now having said that, much of 2023 was McV changing his approach on offense and also making a long list of great coaching hires (including Ryan Wendell). McV also made collossal errors like coming up with the league’s worst special teams in 2023. I don’t count trading Goff for Stafford as an error, but I do count McV’s glaring impatience with Goff in 2019/2020 as a coaching flaw (though one he may have learned from). McVay/Snead were also responsible for a long series of problematical free agent extensions, from Gurley to Noteboom. I would say that between the Vermeil regime and the McV/Snead regimes, it’s a pick-em–I personally pretty much rate them a tie. Though having said that, I also expect the McV/Snead future teams to stay in it and be top competitive teams for as long as they are in charge. I can absolutely see why someone else would rate one over the other, though I think McV is probably the more popular choice. In terms of the others, I rate the 70s version of Knox over Robinson and Robinson over Martz. All 3 have their strengths but both McV and DV are above those 3.

Agree.

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https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/top-10-nfl-coaches-of-all-time-bill-belichicks-place-among-the-greatest-in-league-history/

10. Curly Lambeau

9. Joe Gibbs

8. Tom Landry

7. Bill Walsh

6. Chuck Noll

5. Paul Brown

4. George Halas

3. Don Shula

2. Vince Lombardi

1. Tommy Prothro

i’d rate mcvay over vermeil. took the rams to two superbowls with two different quarterbacks – won one of them.

it’s true that he inherited a much more talented roster than vermeil. so there’s that. and it’s true that mcvay has had snead to lean on regarding personnel decisions, but vermeil also had martz running that offense while i think mcvay has had much more control over the current offense. it’s my opinion that vermeil was much more of a delegator. that’s not necessarily a bad thing. like with mcvay it’s good to realize your shortcomings and be able to delegate to others. vermeil with martz and mcvay with snead.

and i also take longevity into account. vermeil was here three seasons and left. mcvay is about to complete his seventh season and will be here at least through 2024 making it eight seasons. he’ll have been here a decade if he completes his current contract.

i’m like zn in that i can’t speak on the coaches i haven’t seen.

if he can win another superbowl i think the debate is over. for me. i can at least see an argument for putting vermeil on par with mcvay but another superbowl and i don’t think it’s even a question anymore. that would be three superbowls and two wins.

• This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by InvaderRam.
• This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by InvaderRam.

wv wrote:

Well, DV had Kurt.  Do you consider him a veteran in 99?

i wouldn’t consider goff to have been a grizzled veteran qb either at the time.

and you also gotta consider that mcvay wasn’t exactly a grizzled veteran hc either. vermeil had a very successful stint with the eagles that also led to a superbowl appearance. this was mcvay’s first go as a head coach although he had people he could rely on for guidance – more than probably most first time head coaches. he was 30 – barely had any coaching experience at all for that matter. i don’t think that can be discounted.

we saw peak vermeil. a guy who had been through a lot. saw a lot of football even between philadelphia and st louis. he assembled a superstar roster of assistant coaches. hanifan was already a legend at that point. martz was brought on right before 99 but still had a lot of experience.

mcvay has hired a lot of guys getting their feet wet. lafleur i don’t think had any oc experience. he did have phillips to rely on for defense early on. olson on offense but has since hired more up and coming coaching prospects and thrived for the most part. prospects who have gone in to thrive as head coaches themselves in some cases.

hopefully mcvay doesn’t retire for a long time. but the thing that excites me the most is watching him develop as a head coach. vermeil was as i said before peak vermeil. mcvay is still feeling his way around. it’ll be interesting to reflect back on his career with the rams when he finally does call it quits.

zn wrote:

veteran starting caliber qb

but i wouldn’t even consider him a veteran starting caliber qb. by its strictest definition sure he was. in reality he was a sophomore qb on his second offensive coordinator in as many years. looking back on goff’s career you can say that but at the time he wasn’t. and i would also argue that exacerbating goff’s lack of experience at the time was the fact that mcvay himself wasn’t much older than goff. their combined age didn’t even equal vermeil or fisher when they first took a job with the rams which is insane to me when you think about it.

and it’s not a knock on fisher at all. in fact i credit him with providing a lot of the essential foundation work with which mcvay had to work with including goff. and at the time i thought fisher was given a raw deal by getting canned that year. obviously i feel different now, but fisher was the best coach the rams had since vermeil.

zn: “….My answer? One. Bradford. Who played 15 games for him. From 2013 through 2016 the other qbs were Clemens, Hill, Austin, Keenum, Foles, and Goff as a rookie. That’s 65 games. How many of those were starting caliber? Some argue Foles is/was starting caliber. I disagree…”

Well, without going too far down the how-many-QBs-can-fit-on-the-head-of-a-football-tee, hole, its seems like some historical situations are just too F’ing weird to categorize.   Human brains love to label and organize and categorize, though.  We just do.  Evolution, i guess.   But to me, Foles is one of them mysteries of the universe.   He did some things that were just f’ing weird-as-hell.   That first year in Philly was it?   Somethin like a million TDs and 2 INTs or somethin like that.   Then the idiot years with the Rams.   Then the f’ing Super Bowl playoff run with the Eagles.   Then back to the back-up world.

I mean WTF does one do with that ?    What is he?   He’s like….a platypus.

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