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    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/author-of-the-mega-viral-thread-on

    Author of the Mega-Viral Thread on MAGA Voters, Darryl Cooper, Explains His Thinking
    Tucker Carlson devoted seven minutes of airtime to reading it. Donald Trump heaped praise on it. Why did this Twitter analysis resonate so widely on the right?

    Darryl Cooper

    NOTE FROM GLENN GREENWALD: On Friday, a relatively obscure Twitter user with fewer than 7,000 followers — posting under the pseudonym MartyrMade — posted one of the most mega-viral threads of the year. Over the course of thirty-five tweets, the writer, a podcast host whose real name is Darryl Cooper, set out to explain the mindset that has led so many Trump supporters to believe that the 2020 election was fraudulent and, more generally, to lose faith and trust in most U.S. institutions of authority.

    Numerous journalists, including me, promoted the thread as one of the most insightful analyses yet published explaining the animating convictions underlying the MAGA movement. That night, Fox News host Tucker Carlson devoted a seven-minute segment to doing nothing more than reading Cooper’s thread. At the CPAC conference on Sunday, former President Donald Trump explicitly recommended the thread using Cooper’s name. In the last four days, Cooper’s Twitter account has gained more than 70,000 followers. Clearly, this thread resonated strongly with that political faction as a true and important explanation of how many MAGA voters have come to understand the world.

    For our Outside Voices freelance section, we asked Cooper to elaborate on his influential thread, with a focus on what led him to these observations about prevailing MAGA sentiments and why he believes they are important for people to understand. As Cooper notes, he does not share all of the perceptions and beliefs he is conveying, although he shares many of them. Instead, based on the recognition that most media outlets are incapable of understanding let alone accurately describing the views of a group of people they view with little more than unmitigated contempt, condescension and scorn, he believes it is imperative that people understand the actual reality of what is motivating so many Trump voters in their views, perceptions and beliefs — regardless of whether each particular belief is accurate or not.

    We also believe this understanding is vital, which is why we are happy to publish Cooper’s essay. It should go without saying that, as it true of all of our articles published on Outside Voices — which we treat as an op-ed page — our publishing of this article does not signify agreement with all of its claims, but only our belief that it is a viewpoint worth airing.

    Former U.S. President Donald Trump addresses the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) held in the Hyatt Regency on February 28, 2021 in Orlando, Florida (Photo by Joe Raedle/Getty Images).
    By Darryl Cooper

    I quit Twitter last August. Quit for good. Other than posting links to two new episodes of my podcast, I stayed away for eight months and didn’t regret a thing. Around mid-June I let myself be persuaded that social media engagement was part of having a podcast, so I dipped back in, promising myself I’d avoid being pulled into politics. Things haven’t gone as planned.

    The temptation was disguised cleverly as a conversation with a friend’s mother. She was visiting from upstate New York and we got to talking while my buddy was in the house tending to my goddaughter. She’s a hardcore Trumper from a less cynical generation that believes what she hears from sources she trusts. She’d been hounding her son about the stolen election all week, and he’d been trying to disabuse her of various theories involving trucked-in ballots and hacked counting machines. Now she had me cornered and put the question to me: “Do YOU think the election was legit?” So I told her the truth: I don’t know.

    By the time my friend had put the baby to bed and rejoined us, we were waist-deep in a discussion about what happened last year, and she was satisfied that I was on her side. “See?!? He (she meant me) knows what’s going on! I’m not crazy. He’s smart, and HE knows!” My friend pulled the Captain Picard facepalm, and said, “Darryl, what the f*ck are you telling her?”

    What I told her was some version of the Twitter thread Tucker Carlson read on air Friday night and which President Trump, using my name, then explicitly promoted in his speech to CPAC on Sunday, which has blown my inbox, and my promise to stay away from politics, to smithereens.

    I told her I didn’t know much about the ballots, or the voting machines, or some company that she’d heard had ties to Venezuela. I didn’t follow Sidney Powell, or Lin Wood, or the details of the cases proceeding through the system. I think it was around the time Rudy Giuliani chose a landscape and gardening emporium as the location for a press conference on what would have been the greatest political scandal in American history that I made the conscious decision to stop paying attention. Or maybe it was the dripping hair dye, or something about a kraken — it’s all sort of blended together these days.

    But I felt for her. She wasn’t the first person with whom I’d had the discussion, and I felt for all of them. I’ve had the discussion often enough that I feel comfortable extracting a general theory about where these people are coming from.

    RUSSIAGATE: THE ORIGINAL SIN
    Like my friend’s mother, most of them believe some or all of the theories involving fraudulent ballots, voting machines, and the rest. Scratch the surface and you’ll find that they’re not particularly attached to any one of them. The specific theories were almost a kind of synecdoche, a concrete symbol representing a deeply felt, but difficult to describe, sense that whatever happened in 2020, it was not a meaningfully democratic presidential election. The counting delays, the last-minute changes to election procedures, the unprecedented coordinated censorship campaign by Big Tech in defense of Biden were all understood as the culmination of the pan-institutional anti-Trump campaign they’d watched unfold for over four years.

    Many of them deny it now, but a lot of 2016 Trump voters were worried during the early stages of the Russia collusion investigation. True, the evidence seemed thin, and the very idea that the US and allied security apparatus would allow Trump to take office if they really thought he might be under Russian blackmail seemed a bit preposterous on its face. But to many conservatives in 2016 and early 2017, it seemed equally preposterous that the institutions they trusted, and even the ones they didn’t, would go all-in on a story if there wasn’t at least something to it. Imagine the consequences for these institutions if it turned out there was nothing to it.

    We now know that the FBI and other intelligence agencies conducted covert surveillance against members of the Trump campaign based on evidence manufactured by political operatives working for the Clinton campaign, both before and after the election. We know that those involved with the investigation knew the accusations of collusion were part of a campaign “approved by Hillary Clinton… to vilify Donald Trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by the Russian security service.” They might have expected such behavior from the Clintons — politics is a violent game and Hillary’s got a lot of scalps on her wall. But many of the people watching this happen were Tea Party types, in spirit if not in actual fact. They give their kids a pocket Constitution for their birthday. They have Yellow Ribbon bumper stickers, and fly the POW/MIA flag under the front-porch Stars and Stripes, and curl their lip at people who talk during the National Anthem at ballgames. They’re the people who believed their institutions when they were told Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. To them, the intel community using fake evidence (including falsified documents) to spy on a presidential campaign is a big deal.

    It may surprise many liberals, but most conservative normies actually know the Russia collusion case front and back. A whole ecosystem sprouted up to pore over every new development, and conservatives followed the details as avidly as any follower of liberal conspiracy theorists Seth Abramson or Marcy Wheeler. When the world learned of the infamous meeting between Trump campaign officials and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya, it seemed like a problem and many Trump supporters took it seriously. Deep down, even those who rejected the possibility of open collusion worried that one of Trump’s inexperienced family members, or else a sketchy operative glomming onto the campaign, might have done something that, whatever its real gravity, could be successfully framed in a manner to sway a dozen of John McCain’s friends in the Senate.

    Then, Trump supporters learned that Veselnitskaya was working with Fusion GPS, the political research and PR firm used by the Clinton campaign to formulate and spread the collusion accusations. They learned that the anti-Clinton information that was supposed to be the subject of the notorious meeting was provided by the same firm. They learned that she’d had dinner with Glenn Simpson, the owner of Fusion GPS, both the day before, and the day after the meeting. Needless to say, Trump supporters were skeptical of Simpson’s claim that Veselnitskaya’s meeting with Trump campaign officials never came up during either of their dinner dates, given that the content of the meeting was alleged to be the very treasonous, impeachable crime his firm was being paid to investigate and publicize.

    There’s no need to relive all the details of the Russia collusion scam. The point is that conservatives were following it all very closely, in real time, and they noticed when things didn’t add up. After James Comey told Fox News’ Bret Baier that, even at the time of their interview in April 2018, he didn’t know who had funded the Steele dossier, conservatives noticed when the December 2019 DOJ Inspector General’s report showed that he had been informed of the dossier’s provenance in October 2016. And they asked themselves: Why would he lie? Lying to investigators about one’s knowledge of or involvement in a potentially criminal act is often taken as consciousness of guilt.

    This was the bone that stuck in conservatives’ craw throughout the two years of hysteria over Russia. Why would Comey lie about knowing where the dossier came from? Why would the people involved claim to have seen evidence that never seemed to materialize? If the point of the Special Counsel is to take the investigation out of the hands of line investigators to avoid the appearance of political influence, why staff the office with known partisans and the same FBI personnel who originated and oversaw the case? Why was the relationship between Russian lawyer Veselnitskaya and Fusion GPS being dismissed as irrelevant? Why were people who must know better continuing to insist that the Steele dossier was originally funded by Republicans long after the claim had been debunked? Why wasn’t the media asking even these most obvious questions? And why were they giving themselves awards for refusing to ask those questions, and viciously attacking journalists who did ask them? These journalists are intelligent people — at least they present that way on television. Is it possible that these questions simply had not occurred to them? It seemed unlikely.

    Many Trump supporters reasoned that it was simply not possible to carry on this campaign without some degree of coordination. That coordination perhaps did not take place in smoke-filled rooms (though they weren’t ruling it out), but at least through incentives, pressure, and vague but certain threats all well-understood by people who moved about in the same professional and social class, and who complained that they could “smell the Trump support” when they were unfortunate enough to have to patronize a Wal-Mart.

    If there was a time when Trump supporters feared Robert Mueller’s goon squad, that time had passed by the 2018 midterm elections. Conservatives knew by then the whole case was bunk, and they were salivating at the prospect of watching him get chopped up by the likes of Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes. And he did.

    The collusion case wasn’t only used to damage Trump in the polls or distract from his political agenda. It was used as an open threat to keep people from working in the administration. Taking a job in the Trump administration meant having one’s entire life investigated for anything that could fill CNN’s anti-Trump content requirement for another few days, whether or not it held up to scrutiny. Many administration employees quit because they were being bankrupted by legal fees due to an investigation that was known by its progenitors to be a political operation. The Department of Justice, press, and government used falsehoods to destroy lives and actively subvert an elected administration almost from the start. Perhaps worst of all, some portion of the American population was driven to the edge of madness by two years of being told that American politics had become a real-life version of The Manchurian Candidate. And not by Alex Jones, but by intelligence chiefs and politicians, amplified by media organizations which threw every ounce of their accumulated credibility behind the insanity.

    Twitter avatar for @ColumbiaBugle
    The Columbia Bugle 🇺🇸
    @ColumbiaBugle
    President Trump Gives A Shoutout To @martyrmade’s Viral Thread That @TuckerCarlson Read On His Show This Week. #CPACTexas Image
    The Columbia Bugle 🇺🇸 @ColumbiaBugle

    Tucker Carlson Reading @martyrmade’s Viral Thread On Why So Many Trump Supporters Have Questions About The 2020 Election & Their Distrust Of The Mainstream Media https://t.co/HY6MECgd3s
    July 11th 2021

    For two years, Trump supporters had been called traitors and Russian bots for casting ballots for “Vladimir Putin’s c*ck holster.” They’d been subjected to a two-year gaslighting campaign by politicians, government agencies, and elite media. It took real fortitude to stand up to the unanimous mockery and scorn of these powerful institutions. But those institutions had gambled their power and credibility, and they’d lost, and now Trump supporters expected a reckoning. When no reckoning was forthcoming – when the Greenwalds, and Taibbis, and Matés of the world were not handed the New York Times’ revoked Pulitzers for correctly and courageously standing against the tsunami on the biggest political story in years – these people shed many illusions about how power really operates in their country.

    Trump supporters know – I think everyone knows – that Donald Trump would have been impeached and probably indicted if Robert Mueller had proven that he’d paid a foreign spy to gather damaging information on Hillary Clinton from sources connected to Russian intelligence and disseminate that information in the press. Many of Trump’s own supporters wouldn’t have objected to his removal if that had happened. Of course that is exactly what the Clinton campaign actually did, yet there were no consequences for it. Indeed, there has been almost no criticism of it.

    Trump supporters had gone from worrying the collusion might be real, to suspecting it might be fake, to seeing proof that it was all a scam. Then they watched as every institution – government agencies, the press, Congressional committees, academia – blew right past it and gaslit them for another year. To this day, something like half the country still believes that Trump was caught red-handed engaging in treason with Russia, and only escaped a public hanging because of a DOJ technicality regarding the indictment of sitting presidents. Most galling, conservatives suspect that within a few decades liberals will use their command over the culture to ensure that virtually everyone believes it. This is where people whose political identities have for decades been largely defined by a naive belief in what they learned in civics class began to see the outline of a Regime that crossed not only partisan, but all institutional boundaries. They’d been taught that America didn’t have Regimes, but what else was this thing they’d seen step out from the shadows to unite against their interloper president?

    THE ESTABLISHMENT UNITES
    GOP propaganda still has many conservatives thinking in terms of partisan binaries. Even the dreaded RINO (Republican-In-Name-Only) slur serves the purposes of the party, because it implies that the Democrats represent an irreconcilable opposition. But many Trump supporters see clearly that the Regime is not partisan. They know that the same institutions would have taken opposite sides if it had been a Tulsi Gabbard vs. Jeb Bush election. It’s hard to describe to people on the Left, who are used to thinking of American government as a conspiracy and are weaned on stories about Watergate, COINTELPRO, and Saddam’s WMD, how shocking and disillusioning this was for people who encouraged their sons and daughters to go fight for their country when George W. Bush declared war on Iraq.

    They could have managed the shock if it only involved the government. But the behavior of the press is what radicalized them. Trump supporters have more contempt for journalists than they have for any politician or government official, because they feel most betrayed by them. The idea that the corporate press is driven by ratings and sensationalism has become untenable over the last several years. If that were true, there’d be a microphone in the face of every executive branch official demanding to know what the former Secretary of Labor meant when he said that Jeffrey Epstein “belonged to intelligence.” The corporate press is the propaganda arm of the Regime these people are now seeing in outline. Nothing anyone says will ever make them unsee that, period.

    This is profoundly disorienting. Again, we’re not talking about pre-2016 Greenwald readers or even Ron Paul libertarians, who swallowed half a bottle of red pills long ago. These are people who attacked Edward Snowden for “betraying his country,” and who only now are beginning to see that they might have been wrong. It’s not because the parties have been reversed, and it’s not because they’re bitter over losing. They just didn’t know. If any country is going to function over the long-term, not everyone can be a revolutionary. Most people have to believe what they’re told and go with the flow most of the time. These were those people. I’m pretty conservative by temperament, but most of my political friends are on the Left. I spend a good deal of our conversations simply trying to convince them that these people are not demons, and that this political moment is pregnant with opportunity.

    Many Trump supporters don’t know for certain whether ballots were faked in November 2020, but they know with apodictic certainty that the press, the FBI, and even the courts would lie to them if they were. They have every reason to believe that, and it’s probably true. They watched the corporate press behave like animals for four years. Tens of millions of people will always see Brett Kavanaugh as a gang rapist, based on an unproven accusation, because of CNN. And CNN seems proud of that. They helped lead a lynch mob against a high school kid. They cheered on the most deadly and destructive riots in decades.

    Conservatives have always complained that the media had a liberal bias. Fine, whatever: they still thought the press would admit the truth if they were cornered. They don’t believe that anymore. What they’ve witnessed in recent years has shown them that the corporate press will say anything, do anything, to achieve a political objective, or simply to ruin someone they perceive as an opponent. Since my casual Twitter thread ended up in the mouths of Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump, I’ve received hundreds of messages from people saying that I should prepare to be targeted. Others don’t think that will happen, but even most of them don’t think it’s an irrational concern. We’ve seen an elderly lady receive physical threats after a CNN reporter accosted her at home to accuse her of aiding Kremlin disinformation ops. We’ve seen them threaten to dox someone for making a humorous meme.

    Throughout 2020, the corporate press used its platform to excuse and encourage political violence. Time Magazine told us that during the 2020 riots, there were weekly conference calls involving – among others – leaders of the protests, local officials responsible for managing them, and members of the media charged with reporting on the events. They worked together with Silicon Valley to control the messaging about the ongoing crisis for maximum political effect. In case of a Trump victory, the same organization had protesters ready to be activated by text message in 400 cities the day after the election. Every town with a population over 50,000 would have been in for some pre-planned, centrally-controlled mayhem. In other countries we call that a color revolution.

    Throughout the summer, establishment governors took advantage of COVID to change voting procedures, often over the protests of the state legislatures. It wasn’t only the mass mailing of live ballots: they also lowered signature matching standards, axed existing voter ID and notarization requirements, and more. Many people reading this might think those were necessary changes, either due to the virus or to prevent potential voter suppression. I won’t argue the point, but the fact is that the US Constitution states plainly that “The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections… shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof.” As far as conservatives were concerned, state governors used COVID to unconstitutionally usurp their legislatures’ authority to unilaterally alter voting procedures just months before an election in order to help Biden make up for a massive enthusiasm gap by gaming the mail-in ballot system. Lawyers can argue over the legitimacy of the procedural modifications; the point is that conservatives believe in their bones – and I think they’re probably right – that the cases would have been treated differently, in both the media and in court, if the parties were reversed.

    And then came the Hunter Biden laptop scandal. Liberals dismiss the incident because, after four years of obsessing over the activities of the Trump children, they insist they’re not interested in the behavior of the candidate’s family members. But this misses the point entirely. Big Tech ran a coordinated censorship campaign against a major American newspaper while the rest of the media spread base propaganda to protect a political candidate. And once again, the campaign crossed institutional boundaries, with dozens of former intelligence officials throwing their weight behind the baseless and now-discredited claim that the laptop was part of a Russian disinformation campaign. That lie was promoted by Big Tech companies, while the true information being reported by The New York Post about the laptop’s contents was suppressed. That is what happened.

    Even the tech companies themselves now admit it was a “mistake” – Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey said it was an error and apologized – but the election is over, Joe Biden has appointed Facebook’s government regulations executive as his ethics arbiter, so who cares, right? It hardly needs saying that if The New York Times had Donald Trump Jr.’s laptop, full of pictures of him smoking crack and engaging in group sex, lots of lurid family drama, and emails with pretty direct discussions of political corruption, the Paper of Record would not have had its accounts suspended for reporting on it. Let’s remember that stories of Trump being pissed on by Russian prostitutes and blackmailed by Putin were promoted as fact across the media spectrum and used as the basis for a multi-year criminal investigation, when the only evidence was a document paid for by his opposition and disavowed by its primary source.

    The reaction of Trump supporters to all this was not, “no fair!” That was how they felt about Romney’s “binders of women” in 2012 or Harry Reid’s lie that Romney paid no federal taxes. This is different. Now they were beginning to see, accurately, that the institutions of their country — all of them — had been captured by people prepared to use any means to exclude them from the political process. And yet they showed up in record numbers to vote. Trump got 13 million more votes than in 2016 – 10 million more than Hillary Clinton had gotten.

    As election day became election night and the tallies rolled in, Trump supporters allowed themselves some hope. But when the four critical swing states (and only those states) went dark around midnight, they knew.

    Over the following weeks, they were shuffled around between honest critics, online grifters, and media scam artists selling them conspiracy theories. They latched onto one then another increasingly outlandish theory as they tried to put a concrete name on something very real, of which election day was only the culmination. Media and Big Tech did all they could to make things worse. Everything about the election was strange, confusing, and unprecedented – the changes to procedure, unprecedented mail-in voting, counting delays, etc – but rather than admit that and bring everything into the open, they banned discussion of it (even in private messages!), and launched an absurd propaganda campaign telling us that it was – I’m not making this up – the most well-run and secure election in American history.

    Conservatives know – again, I think probably everyone knows – that just as Don Jr.’s laptop would have been the story of the century, if everything about the election dispute was the same, except the parties were reversed, suspicions about the outcome would have been taken very seriously. See 2016 for proof.

    Even the judiciary had forfeited its credibility with these voters because of the opposition’s embrace of political violence. Trump supporters say, with good reason: What judge will stick his neck out for Trump knowing he’ll be destroyed in the media as a violent mob burns down his house? Maybe most judges would do their jobs, but given the events of the last four years it’s not an unreasonable concern, and the concern itself is enough to cast the whole system in doubt. Again, we know, thanks to Time Magazine, that riots were planned in cities across the country if Trump had won. Sure, they were “protests”, but they were planned by the same people as during the summer, and everyone knows what it would have meant. The Chamber of Commerce took the threat of a second round of destruction of its members’ property seriously enough to offer its assistance to the “well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information” – Time’s words, not mine.

    Trump voters were adamant that the governors’ changes to election procedures were unconstitutional. Everything in law is open to interpretation, but it doesn’t require a Harvard Law degree to read Article 1, Section 4 (quoted above) and come to that conclusion. But they also knew the cases wouldn’t see a courtroom until after the election, and what judge was going to make a ruling that would be framed as a judicial coup d’etat just because some governors didn’t go through the proper channels? Even a judge willing to accept the personal risk would have also to be willing to inflict the chaos that would follow on the country. Even a well-intentioned judge could convince himself that, whatever happened or didn’t happen, as a public servant he had no right to impose an opinion guaranteed to lead to mass violence – because the threat was not implied, it was direct. Some Trump supporters, unfortunately, thought the license for political violence applied to everyone; the hundreds of them now sitting in federal jails learned the hard way that it wasn’t true.

    From the perspective of Trump’s supporters, the entrenched bureaucracy and security state subverted their populist president from day one. The natural guardrails of the Fourth Estate were removed because the press was part of the operation. Election rules were changed in an unconstitutional manner that could only be challenged after the deed was done, when judges and officials would be playing chicken with a direct threat of burning cities. Political violence was legitimized and encouraged. Major newspapers and sitting presidents were banned from social media, while the opposition enjoyed free rein to promote stories that were discredited once it was too late to matter. Conservatives put these things together and concluded that, whatever happened on November 3, 2020, it was not a free and fair democratic election in any sense that would have had meaning before Donald J. Trump was a candidate.

    Trump supporters were led down some rabbit holes. But they are absolutely right that the institutions and power centers of this country have been monopolized by a Regime that believes they are beneath representation, and will observe no limits to prevent them getting it. I encourage people on the Left to recognize the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity in front of them. You’re not going to agree with the conservatives on everything. But if in 2004 I had told you that the majority of the GOP voter base would soon be seeing the folly of the Iraq War, becoming skeptical of state surveillance, and beginning to see the need for action to help the poor and working classes, you’d have told me such a thing would transform the country. Take the opportunity. These people are not demons, and they are ready to listen in a way they haven’t in a long, long time.

    Darryl Cooper is the host of The MartyrMade Podcast, Co-host of The Unraveling w/Jocko Willink, and author of “that” Twitter thread.

    #130879
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    They cheered on the most deadly and destructive riots in decades.

    What is THIS? Is this a reference to BLM demonstrations? BLM demonstrations were generally peaceful (and I mean a huge majority) and if there was violence in those it was mostly from demonstrators being attacked by the cops. MILLIONS of people marched in those demonstrations in hundreds of places all over the country.The demonstrations that broke down into crowd violence were a small percentage.

    If he means BLM and if he honestly believes it was mostly violent then he is falling for a bad tv news trope.

    #130883
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    My personal take:

    Greenwald is stunningly gullible with regard to far-right narratives, and whatever Carlson and Trump claim about Russiagate and beyond. He’s a fake “leftist” of the worst kind, IMO; one who actively aids and abets the far-right. Which means, actively aiding and abetting American fascists.

    A must-read article on Greenwald, Carlson, and the NSA:

    https://newrepublic.com/article/162897/tucker-carlson-glenn-greenwald-nsa-scandal

    To try to make a long story short . . . In my view, Greenwald uses obvious double-standards when he talks about “evidence.” He doesn’t require any to instantly believe the Trump camp, just the mention of “deep state,” but requires mountains beyond the mountains we’ve all already seen, proving Trump’s (ongoing) crimes. And, of course, no amount of evidence will ever satisfy him, because he’s already convinced, like the far-right, like this Cooper guy, that’s it’s all been invented anyway.

    I used to post on Greenwald’s blog when he worked at Salon, and we butted heads a few times. I found him to be incredibly thin-skinned, and all too eager to support Truthers and Ron Paul’s fanboys there. I’ve never bought into the claim that he’s a “leftist.” I think he’s a right-libertarian on most issues, and seriously mixed up and all too gullible about recent events.

    As for Cooper: I can’t find a single truth in his column. It’s just boilerplate conservative whining, moaning, lying, and playing the eternal victim.

    It’s bullshit, in short.

    #130894
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I had been on my best behavior, refraining from posting about this stuff, and then I fell of the wagon!!

    ;>)

    Anyway, Zooey, what’s your take on the article? How do you view Cooper’s assessment?

    (I shoulda asked that before I did my bull in the china shop impression.)

    I’m just gonna shut up and read your response, and other leftists here. May comment afterward, but I hope my better angels prevail and I just read, etc.

    Hope all is well, everyone.

    #130897
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I’m just gonna shut up and read your response, and other leftists here. May comment afterward, but I hope my better angels prevail and I just read, etc.

    I thought it was a good response and I enjoyed reading it.

    Round here, there is no china shop.

    Here, we’re all kangeroos in a trampoline shop.

    I sincerely doubt Z would take offense (not to speak for him, that’s just my impression).

    We don’t have testy egos here. Just sometimes people here don’t think to respond.

    #130905
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Thanks, ZN,

    Appreciate the openness, etc.

    Some food for thought:

    Right-wing politicians, media, and so-called “thought-leaders” have been caught in countless lies. Trump was documented at more than 30,000 during his presidency, and he’s continued that onslaught since that time. Right-wingers constantly lie about Covid, CRT, the 1619 project, BLM, antifa, “socialism,” and the left in general, and their lies literally kill. They’ve been lying about the world and whipping up their “base” into frenzies of fear and hatred for centuries now.

    Which leads me to sheer bafflement whenever I see leftists with audiences instantly take their word for anything. As in, anything. Especially when it comes to their belief in their own persecution. Their mention of “the deep state” doesn’t alter that record. When Carlson claims the NSA is spying on him, for instance, he’s still a known liar (and white supremacist). To me, it’s a false choice for leftists to feel they have to side with him against the security state.

    Naww. We leftists can oppose both sides in that little fake skirmish.

    And this from Cooper’s article:

    I encourage people on the Left to recognize the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity in front of them. You’re not going to agree with the conservatives on everything. But if in 2004 I had told you that the majority of the GOP voter base would soon be seeing the folly of the Iraq War, becoming skeptical of state surveillance, and beginning to see the need for action to help the poor and working classes, you’d have told me such a thing would transform the country. Take the opportunity. These people are not demons, and they are ready to listen in a way they haven’t in a long, long time.

    No. They’re not ready to listen. And, no, their not skeptical of state surveillance, if it’s done to their enemies, which includes all of us lefties, BLM, etc. They’re clearly solely concerned if they think it’s done to them, especially Trump. Since we know Trump used state security to go after his political enemies, including the media, and the right never said a thing about . . . it’s a one-way street. He did absolutely nothing to improve its record of civil liberties abuses. He made them worse.

    As for helping the poor and working classes? What? When? Where?, etc. I’ve seen zero indication that they’re ready to tackle poverty, inequality, or anything remotely connected to these things. Their own perceived economic difficulties? Sure. But they don’t see people of color and “the left” as a part of the American story. For the right, it’s always about them, and just them, and their drowning in lies.

    Again, hoping others will weigh in.

    #130906
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joint-chiefs-chairman-feared-potential-reichstag-moment-aimed-at-keeping-trump-in-power/2021/07/14/a326f5fe-e4ec-11eb-a41e-c8442c213fa8_story.html

    Just out yesterday. It’s related to the Cooper article for obvious reasons, and for some that folks may not think about. No president has ever provoked so many people who worked for him, with him, to trash him as much as Trump. Rather than believe the absurd claims from Trump and his followers that everyone was out to get him, it’s far more logical to deduce that Trump earned this criticism with his (reprehensible, despicable) actions.

    As in, the level of conspiratorial coordination among his supposed persecutors would have required unprecedented worldwide orchestration.

    Joint Chiefs chairman feared potential ‘Reichstag moment’ aimed at keeping Trump in power

    By
    Reis Thebault
    July 14, 2021|Updated today at 8:33 a.m. EDT

    In the waning weeks of Donald Trump’s term, the country’s top military leader repeatedly worried about what the president might do to maintain power after losing reelection, comparing his rhetoric to Adolf Hitler’s during the rise of Nazi Germany and asking confidants whether a coup was forthcoming, according to a new book by two Washington Post reporters.

    As Trump ceaselessly pushed false claims about the 2020 presidential election, Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, grew more and more nervous, telling aides he feared that the president and his acolytes might attempt to use the military to stay in office, Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker report in “I Alone Can Fix It: Donald J. Trump’s Catastrophic Final Year.”

    Milley described “a stomach-churning” feeling as he listened to Trump’s untrue complaints of election fraud, drawing a comparison to the 1933 attack on Germany’s parliament building that Hitler used as a pretext to establish a Nazi dictatorship.

    “This is a Reichstag moment,” Milley told aides, according to the book. “The gospel of the Führer.”

    A spokesman for Milley declined to comment.

    Portions of the book related to Milley — first reported Wednesday night by CNN ahead of the book’s July 20 release — offer a remarkable window into the thinking of America’s highest-ranking military officer, who saw himself as one of the last empowered defenders of democracy during some of the darkest days in the country’s recent history.

    The episodes in the book are based on interviews with more than 140 people, including senior Trump administration officials, friends and advisers, Leonnig and Rucker write in an author’s note. Most agreed to speak candidly only on the condition of anonymity, and the scenes reported were reconstructed based on firsthand accounts and multiple other sources whenever possible.

    Milley — who was widely criticized last year for appearing alongside Trump in Lafayette Square after protesters were forcibly cleared from the area — had pledged to use his office to ensure a free and fair election with no military involvement. But he became increasingly concerned in the days following the November contest, making multiple references to the onset of 20th-century fascism.
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    After attending a Nov. 10 security briefing about the “Million MAGA March,” a pro-Trump rally protesting the election, Milley said he feared an American equivalent of “brownshirts in the streets,” alluding to the paramilitary forces that protected Nazi rallies and enabled Hitler’s ascent.

    Late that same evening, according to the book, an old friend called Milley to express concerns that those close to Trump were attempting to “overturn the government.”

    “You are one of the few guys who are standing between us and some really bad stuff,” the friend told Milley, according to an account relayed to his aides. Milley was shaken, Leonnig and Rucker write, and he called former national security adviser H.R. McMaster to ask whether a coup was actually imminent.

    “What the f— am I dealing with?” Milley asked him.
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    The conversations put Milley on edge, and he began informally planning with other military leaders, strategizing how they would block Trump’s order to use the military in a way they deemed dangerous or illegal.

    If someone wanted to seize control, Milley thought, they would need to gain sway over the FBI, the CIA and the Defense Department, where Trump had already installed staunch allies. “They may try, but they’re not going to f—ing succeed,” he told some of his closest deputies, the book says.

    In the weeks that followed, Milley played reassuring soothsayer to a string of concerned members of Congress and administration officials who shared his worries about Trump attempting to use the military to stay in office.

    “Everything’s going to be okay,” he told them, according to the book. “We’re going to have a peaceful transfer of power. We’re going to land this plane safely. This is America. It’s strong. The institutions are bending, but it won’t break.”
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    In December, with rumors circulating that the president was preparing to fire then-CIA Director Gina Haspel and replace her with Trump loyalist Kash Patel, Milley sought to intervene, the book says. He confronted White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows at the annual Army-Navy football game, which Trump and other high-profile guests attended.

    “What the hell is going on here?” Milley asked Meadows, according to the book’s account. “What are you guys doing?”

    When Meadows responded, “Don’t worry about it,” Milley shot him a warning: “Just be careful.”

    After the failed insurrection on Jan. 6, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) called Milley to ask for his guarantee that Trump would not be able to launch a nuclear strike and start a war.

    “This guy’s crazy,” Pelosi said of Trump in what the book reported was mostly a one-way phone call. “He’s dangerous. He’s a maniac.”
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    Once again, Milley sought to reassure: “Ma’am, I guarantee you that we have checks and balances in the system,” he told Pelosi.

    Less than a week later, as military and law enforcement leaders planned for President Biden’s inauguration, Milley said he was determined to avoid a repeat of the siege on the Capitol.

    “Everyone in this room, whether you’re a cop, whether you’re a soldier, we’re going to stop these guys to make sure we have a peaceful transfer of power,” he told them. “We’re going to put a ring of steel around this city and the Nazis aren’t getting in.”

    At Biden’s swearing-in on Jan. 20, Milley was seated behind former president Barack Obama and former first lady Michelle Obama, who asked the general how he was feeling.

    “No one has a bigger smile today than I do,” Milley replied. “You can’t see it under my mask, but I do.”

    #130908
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Trying to sum up.

    IMO, we leftists just don’t have to take sides here, nor do we have to find any “common cause” with Trump or his followers. Ever. It’s not necessary, nor is it wise.

    He and his followers endlessly, ferociously demonize us and the entire left. They actually seem more unhinged about “socialism,” “communism,” antifa, et al than they do about people of color, and they tend to view “the left” as pulling their strings, anyway. They see CRT as “Marxist,” etc.

    Consciously or unconsciously, they understand that it’s the left that has long supported the vision of a multi-racial society, and the right hates that vision with a passion. The original nazis and fascists despised the left for that reason too, and more, of course. The left’s anticapitalism drove them crazy, and this animates the American right still.

    To make a long story shorter, we just don’t have any common ground. It doesn’t exist. And, again, in my view, we don’t have to side with them in any of their fake disputes with the establishment. The right has never been anti-establishment in any meaningful way, in the sense that they want to flatten pyramids, reduce inequality, reduce concentrations of wealth and power, reduce hierarchies. They’re only anti-establishment to the degree that small parts of it prevent them from doing what they want to do, which is to dominate the less powerful. They want to pull all the strings.

    Unlike the left, they have no intention of reducing wealth and power in the ruling class, much less ending the class system entirely (my own vision). They just want to sit on top of the throne(s).

    #130913
    Cal
    Participant

    No. They’re not ready to listen. And, no, their not skeptical of state surveillance, if it’s done to their enemies, which includes all of us lefties, BLM, etc. They’re clearly solely concerned if they think it’s done to them, especially Trump. Since we know Trump used state security to go after his political enemies, including the media, and the right never said a thing about . . . it’s a one-way street. He did absolutely nothing to improve its record of civil liberties abuses. He made them worse.

    As for helping the poor and working classes? What? When? Where?, etc. I’ve seen zero indication that they’re ready to tackle poverty, inequality, or anything remotely connected to these things. Their own perceived economic difficulties? Sure. But they don’t see people of color and “the left” as a part of the American story. For the right, it’s always about them, and just them, and their drowning in lies.

    Again, hoping others will weigh in.

    Good thoughts Billy. I couldn’t make it through the section of the article where Cooper talked about how Trumpies cared deeply about Russia-gate, followed it closely, and knew the facts of the case better than most. I had to stop there.

    At their best, the Right deals in half-truths & at their worst they work with complete fiction–Like the idea that Trump and company were really interested in helping regular Americans.

    As soon as Biden and the dems started a real program where families like mine got a little extra, the Right and Fox News howl endlessly about inflation. (I’m guessing Fox is amplifying and spreading this message).

    I am sometimes curious and sympathetic about the Right’s anti-establishment stance. I think the Right does have a sense that the world has changed for the worse, but you’re right that sentiment is often tangled up with their racism and failure to help dig minorities out of a hole created by years of racism.

    #130918
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Good thoughts Billy. I couldn’t make it through the section of the article where Cooper talked about how Trumpies cared deeply about Russia-gate, followed it closely, and knew the facts of the case better than most. I had to stop there.

    At their best, the Right deals in half-truths & at their worst they work with complete fiction–Like the idea that Trump and company were really interested in helping regular Americans.

    As soon as Biden and the dems started a real program where families like mine got a little extra, the Right and Fox News howl endlessly about inflation. (I’m guessing Fox is amplifying and spreading this message).

    I am sometimes curious and sympathetic about the Right’s anti-establishment stance. I think the Right does have a sense that the world has changed for the worse, but you’re right that sentiment is often tangled up with their racism and failure to help dig minorities out of a hole created by years of racism.

    Good post, Cal.

    It’s 2021. To me, I honestly can’t believe that Trump and his movement have any support beyond the fringe whatsoever, given his and their attempted fascist coup, and all the hate-filled, sadistic, illegal things he did before it. No sane nation would ignore the mountains and mountains of video, audio, written transcripts, public legislative records, etc. etc. showing Trump’s record-shattering lies, cruelty, calls for violence, calls for assassinations of peaceful protestors, calls to drink bleach to “cure” Covid, etc. etc.

    His love of Hitler, his syncing up so closely with Hitler’s enemies list, his moronic and dangerous attacks against reporters, the handicapped, NFL players who protested police brutality, his sadistic separation of families at the border, his earth-killing rollback of environmental laws and the privatization of public lands . . . the list is too long to fit into a hundred threads. But still we Americans are supposed to believe his followers and find common ground with them? We’re still supposed to join with them and fight against . . . . against whom?

    Sheesh. A third of all Republicans accept the main tenets of QAnon right now. More than 2/3rds believe Trump really won the election.

    There’s no reaching these people through any form of rational discourse, and Greenwald should be ashamed of himself, IMO, for elevatng an alt-right podcastor this way. Cooper peddles lie after lie, just like Trump, and tries to claim special knowledge about things he turns upside-down.

    I seriously don’t get it. Trump should have been arrested on January 7th, and we just learned today that his own legal council thought he would be after the Capitol riot. General Milley made contingency plans in case Trump ordered a military takeoever!

    Has America ever had anyone escape justice as often as Trump? Have we ever seen ignorance, lies, and abject cruelty win so often after so much slam-dunk evidence against them?

    #130928
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well, we could all go down that article line by line, paragraph by paragraph
    and tear apart the statements.

    But I’m not up for that, myself.

    Leaving aside all the garbage in the piece, I think there are some
    basic truths he’s getting at. I take his main point to be, simply,
    that many Rightoids are completely disillusioned by the Government
    and the Dem-Media. They have finally figured out that there is a
    WHOLE LOT OF LYING goin on. They no longer live in their fantasy
    Norman Rockwell America.

    They have figured out ‘just enough’ about America
    to be batshit-dangerous.

    And none of it matters.

    Cause Environmental Collapse and Fascism
    is on its way.

    Have a nice day.

    w
    v

    #130937
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Well, we could all go down that article line by line, paragraph by paragraph
    and tear apart the statements.

    But I’m not up for that, myself.

    Leaving aside all the garbage in the piece, I think there are some
    basic truths he’s getting at. I take his main point to be, simply,
    that many Rightoids are completely disillusioned by the Government
    and the Dem-Media. They have finally figured out that there is a
    WHOLE LOT OF LYING goin on. They no longer live in their fantasy
    Norman Rockwell America.

    They have figured out ‘just enough’ about America
    to be batshit-dangerous.

    And none of it matters.

    Cause Environmental Collapse and Fascism
    is on its way.

    Have a nice day.

    w
    v

    I agree with all of that, WV.

    It’s a tragedy, however, that they’ve chosen to listen to and believe sources that are even more mendacious than the so-called MSM. From bad to much, much worse, etc.

    For instance, I’d bet that most of the people the alt-right Cooper is talking about are into Q. Overall, a third of all Republicans accept its central tenets. Like, that the government is controlled by satanic cannibal pedophiles. Ten years ago, I would have laughed at such a view. Today, we’ve seen far too much not to be appalled and deeply worried about its spread. It’s not a joke any longer. People have acted on those beliefs to deadly effect, and they’re tied into all kinds of other dangerous pathologies . . . including a renewal of the Lost Cause narrative/hope/end goal.

    Environmental collapse: 121 degrees in Canada! An entire town in the midst of that literally burned up. Siberia topped 100 degrees. Massive floods in Europe. A pandemic that refuses to go away. We humans have truly ruined paradise, and we seem to be getting dumber all the time.

    Hang in there, WV.

    #130954
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I see this more-or-less the same way WV does.

    The reason I posted it is that it does offer a coherent worldview (albeit with several tablespoons full of backasswardness) that articulates pretty well the vision of the country from where they’re sitting in the auditorium. They see that the institutions are corrupt and self-serving, and hardly in service to “truth.” I think they are right that the establishment didn’t want Trump in the first place, and did what they could to undermine him in 2020. Why wouldn’t they? Trump was a criminal fool with a strong tendency to chaos. In D&D terms, Trump is Chaotic Evil. Biden is Lawful Evil. From a business point of view, Lawful Evil is better. So I think that’s just true.

    Now, as zn pointed out, they plain old have some shit upside down. Especially about the protests. Media coverage hardly “cheered it on,” and more to the point, it was the police and agitators who were responsible for most of the violence. This guy Cooper doesn’t know that. None of the right wing media consumers know that because they didn’t see the endless cellphone footage from encounter after encounter. And Cooper REALLY goes off on the deep end when he equates the BLM protests and the attempted coup. Like “If BLM can steal toasters from Target, then it’s a double standard to arrest MAGAs for trying to overthrow the government.” I mean…wut?

    So the common ground is simply that both the Left and MAGA see that there is a colossal cabal of Insiders who use all kinds of shady tactics, including media manipulation, to keep the Outsiders outside. But as Billy points out, MAGA is not interested in equality for all. They want Hillary and Hunter prosecuted, but not Donald and Ivanka. They want good-paying jobs for themselves, but not for brown people. Etc.

    #130957
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    In D&D terms, Trump is Chaotic Evil. Biden is Lawful Evil. From a business point of view, Lawful Evil is better. So I think that’s just true.

    Thanks for the original article, and your response, Zooey. Glad you posted them.

    I like the formulation above. Trump was seen, before 2016, as chaotic, almost cartoonishly corrupt and vulgar, and a second-rate grifter. The establishment is more stable in its corruption and bad intentions, and prefers that kind of “leader,” typically. It also tries its best to hide what it does, and wants those in charge to do the same. And while Trump did a hell of a lot of horrible things behind the scenes (too) that we’re just now finding out, he broke all the norms by being an asshole in public, continuously. The establishment greatly prefers those who limit their assholery to closed door sessions.

    That said, I think where some pundits go wrong is to assume that the establishment went after Trump with falsehoods and trumped-up charges. To me, that’s a bad assumption to make, and it’s not logical. They didn’t need to lie. Trump gave them all the ammo in the world, going back decades, and throughout his presidency. There was never any reason for the establishment to make shit up to try to take him down. And, of course, given the fact that he escaped time and time again, and had nearly universal backing from the GOP establishment and right-wing media — as in, establishment insiders . . . Well, it was never really a case of David versus Goliath. Contrary to what the right wants to paint this as, he was never persecuted, and was surrounded by billionaires and Republican insiders defending his evil from 2016 on, at least.

    (More in a bit)

    #130965
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I don’t agree with this idea that the Trump world sees the corruption and systemic problems we see and objects to them.

    I think they are racists who believe the establishment sold them out for “PC values.”

    In fact I think the entire “they see the real issues too” take on things is completely off track. They don’t see it at all.

    #130966
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I don’t agree with this idea that the Trump world sees the corruption and systemic problems we see and objects to them.

    I think they are racists who believe the establishment sold them out for “PC values.”

    In fact I think the entire “they see the real issues too” take on things is completely off track. They don’t see it at all.

    Well… I think they sort of have the Evil Twin of the right answers to some stuff. And some of their “answers” have some truth to them.

    They see that the media is unreliable. It isn’t doing its job (if it’s job is to shed light on the truth). They see that the media is Manufacturing Consent, and obfuscating what’s really going on. But they have latched onto the part of the media that is least accurate, and most full of propaganda, and are suspicious of MSNBC and CNN and WaPo and NYT (as they should be), but they have mischaracterized what is actually wrong with those media outlets. However, they plainly see that Rachel Maddow is a shill, and that MSNBC is the propaganda arm of the DNC. So they have a little bit of that right. They see that the media is untrustworthy, and that they should be highly skeptical of it. So they see that the media is a gamed system that isn’t telling them the truth. They are just completely wrong about the nature of that gamed system. It’s like they have the correct answer to a math problem, but the work is completely wrong getting to that answer…so it can’t really get credit for being right.

    They see that the establishment is working to thwart their ambitions, and destabilize their livelihoods. But they don’t accurately understand what forces are at work in that reality, what their objectives are, and how and why they do what they are doing. They think it’s a bunch of dumbass liberals trying to take the fruits of their labor and give it to various undeserving minorities out of some misplaced morality. They see clearly that the establishment is not working to help them and protect them. They’ve just completely misdiagnosed the causes.

    It’s all kind of like their Covid response. They see the coughing and fever. They are right that they’re sick.

    They just think it’s the flu.

    It’s like…even when they’re right, they’re wrong.

    #130967
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I don’t agree with this idea that the Trump world sees the corruption and systemic problems we see and objects to them.

    I think they are racists who believe the establishment sold them out for “PC values.”

    In fact I think the entire “they see the real issues too” take on things is completely off track. They don’t see it at all.

    It does seem overly generous to attribute to them some overlap in societal critique . . . especially given their publicly stated hatred for “the left.” I think all too many lefty pundits are rather tone deaf on this.

    Trump, a host of Republican reps, right-wing media, and the Trump supporters who tried to make Trump king on January 6th, blame “communism,” “socialism,” “cultural Marxism,” antifa, BLM, etc. for their ills. Immigration, migrants, and people of color are huge on their list, obviously, but they see “the left” as pulling the strings, trying to “indoctrinate” Americans, even funding immigration, blah blah blah.

    They vocally, publicly, hate everything we stand for. I see no common ground. None. And why would we even want to work with them? To what purpose?

    Right now, to me, it seems that America has lost its mind. I don’t exclude those lefty pundits who keep pushing for coalition-building with the hard-right.

    #130969
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Well… I think they sort of have the Evil Twin of the right answers to some stuff. And some of their “answers” have some truth to them.

    They see that the media is unreliable. It isn’t doing its job (if it’s job is to shed light on the truth). They see that the media is Manufacturing Consent, and obfuscating what’s really going on. But they have latched onto the part of the media that is least accurate, and most full of propaganda, and are suspicious of MSNBC and CNN and WaPo and NYT (as they should be), but they have mischaracterized what is actually wrong with those media outlets. However, they plainly see that Rachel Maddow is a shill, and that MSNBC is the propaganda arm of the DNC. So they have a little bit of that right. They see that the media is untrustworthy, and that they should be highly skeptical of it. So they see that the media is a gamed system that isn’t telling them the truth. They are just completely wrong about the nature of that gamed system. It’s like they have the correct answer to a math problem, but the work is completely wrong getting to that answer…so it can’t really get credit for being right.

    They see that the establishment is working to thwart their ambitions, and destabilize their livelihoods. But they don’t accurately understand what forces are at work in that reality, what their objectives are, and how and why they do what they are doing. They think it’s a bunch of dumbass liberals trying to take the fruits of their labor and give it to various undeserving minorities out of some misplaced morality. They see clearly that the establishment is not working to help them and protect them. They’ve just completely misdiagnosed the causes.

    It’s all kind of like their Covid response. They see the coughing and fever. They are right that they’re sick.

    They just think it’s the flu.

    It’s like…even when they’re right, they’re wrong.

    That’s all too vague and over-generalized for me, Z. And they’re wrong about things like Maddow being a mere shill. A real critique is that the mainstream liberal media is okay on a certain limited spectrum or range of issues.

    Magas are racist pro-fascists and parsing what we presumably have in common with them is to me both misleading and a waste of time.

    ….

    #130970
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    They see that the establishment is working to thwart their ambitions, and destabilize their livelihoods. But they don’t accurately understand what forces are at work in that reality, what their objectives are, and how and why they do what they are doing.

    I know you know this, Zooey, but even their idea of “the Establishment” is all wrong. All too many Trump supporters don’t even include their own party/media as being a part of that establishment, unless it’s openly opposed Trump, then it/they go on the list. They’ll never accept the fact that liberals hold little power in America, or that leftists hold less than nothing. And they’ll never accept the fact that the Powers that Be, regardless of party, have pretty much always been center-right in America.

    I’m struck also by the desire by some lefty civil libertarians to forge closer ties. Just because a Rand Paul or Ted Cruz or Jim Jordan raises holy hell about alleged snooping on Carter Page or Tucker Carlson doesn’t mean they have the slightest concern about anyone else. When was the last time right-wingers ever condemned security-state abuses directed at Muslims, or against leftist dissidents, for instance?

    Trump actually called on the military to shoot protestors. Did any Trump supporter condemn that?

    And, to raise the hypocrisy meter ten-fold, Paul, Cruz and company pitched a fit about Carter Page and FISA the same day they voted to reauthorize its post-9/11 powers.

    In my view, right-wingers are hard-wired to think about themselves first, last, always, which obviously makes societal critique a bit difficult. That’s pretty much a pre-condition for choosing the political right in the first place, though there’s that chicken and egg dilemma. They see inequality as perfectly natural, and capitalism as synonymous with their god, apple pie, Mom and the flag. “Real Americans”? Well, they don’t include people of color or we leftists.

    The Dems piss me off endlessly for playing Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football so often. I don’t think there’s much difference when leftist pundits, real or faux, try to force some (futile, insane) compact with the far-right.

    #130973
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    That’s all too vague and over-generalized for me, Z. And they’re wrong about things like Maddow being a mere shill. A real critique is that the mainstream liberal media is okay on a certain limited spectrum or range of issues.

    Magas are racist pro-fascists and parsing what we presumably have in common with them is to me both misleading and a waste of time.

    Sure, and calling them all racist pro-fascists is also over-generalized. That’s kind of the movement zeitgeist, no question about it. But that’s not all that’s going on there.

    #130974
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I know you know this, Zooey, but even their idea of “the Establishment” is all wrong.

    Yes, I agree with all of that.

    And whether we try to appeal to these people, or fight them, or a combination of both, it’s important to understand how they see the world, even though it’s largely fictional.

    #130975
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I don’t agree with this idea that the Trump world sees the corruption and systemic problems we see and objects to them.

    I think they are racists who believe the establishment sold them out for “PC values.”

    In fact I think the entire “they see the real issues too” take on things is completely off track. They don’t see it at all.

    ====

    Well, there’s definitely various shades of Racists on the Right.

    I would agree that there is a faction of confederate-flag-loving
    flat-out-neo-nazi trumpies. I dunno how big that one is though.
    I have no idea. But its definitely part of the Rightwing-pie.

    Then there’s the rightwing “I’m color-blind” type racists
    who dont know they are racists, and who cant figure out
    systemic racism. They make up a big slice of the rightwing-pie.

    This-or-that form of racism may be the biggest single dynamic
    in the Rightwing-brain. I’m not sure.

    But the racism is just part of the kaleidoscope. It meshes
    and morphs with other notions. And one of those other notions
    is reflected in that article — a dawning-recognition by rightoids
    that Hillary/Obama/Biden/MSNBC/NPR/PBS/CNN/CBS/ABC/NBC/CIA — LIE
    to them constantly. They recognize it. They are being lied to.
    They figured it out. And they vote accordingly.

    Now, of course they FAILED to figure out that things are actually
    MUCH worse than even they know. Because they failed to figure
    out that FOX and Talk Radio, etc is lying to them too.

    That makes them batshit-fascist-dangerous. 70 million of em.

    w
    v

    #130976
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I would agree that there is a faction of confederate-flag-loving
    flat-out-neo-nazi trumpies. I dunno how big that one is though.
    I have no idea. But its definitely part of the Rightwing-pie.

    I think it’s all of them in different ways and to different degrees and it does not simply reduce to confederate flag types. I agree that it includes the “I am blind to color” types who can’t see systemic racism and actually believe they’re beyond it (and therefore see anti-racism as a problem that is really fighting nothing and must be opposed).

    In terms of blaming liberals and their “lies” for right-wing nonsense, I give them no excuses. As you say, the right lies to them too and they don’t seem to care about that, let alone notice. And of course the smear the opposition routine is so deep that anyone with any liberal policies hinting at any degree of anti-racism is going to get called a liar anyway whether it’s true or not.

    I have absolutely no sympathy for the “we’re really allied at heart” arguments regarding the right. Just none. The rightie types we’re talking about for example are thoroughly woven into police forces everywhere in the country. It’s not just innocent victims of the system who as it happens just can’t properly analyze the causes of their disaffection. They’re also part of the system itself.

    And yes, “That makes them batshit-fascist-dangerous. 70 million of em.” Agreed.

    #130977
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    And one of those other notions
    is reflected in that article — a dawning-recognition by rightoids
    that Hillary/Obama/Biden/MSNBC/NPR/PBS/CNN/CBS/ABC/NBC/CIA — LIE
    to them constantly. They recognize it. They are being lied to.
    They figured it out. And they vote accordingly.

    Now, of course they FAILED to figure out that things are actually
    MUCH worse than even they know. Because they failed to figure
    out that FOX and Talk Radio, etc is lying to them too.

    That makes them batshit-fascist-dangerous. 70 million of em.

    w
    v

    I think it’s important to pin down the lies they think they recognize. What exactly do they think they’ve been told that isn’t true? Are they the same lies we see? IMO, no. Not in the slightest. Not even in the same universe.

    The MSM outlets you mention haven’t lied about Trump, his deeds, the election, Jan 6th, Covid, or the GOP in general. They’ve actually been remarkably good, relatively speaking, about telling the truth in those cases and can back it up, corroborate it, etc.

    Are they good at adding context and history? No. We’ve talked about all of that many times before. Do they omit a host of existentially important things about empire, war, the environment, capitalist exploitation and the like? Of course. But, the thing is, the right doesn’t complain about those omissions, even if they realize their absence. In fact, as is all too clear from the war against CRT, BLM, NFL players taking a knee and so on . . . they don’t want the flag, Mom, Apple Pie and the like besmirched, and they’re actually in favor of empire, capitalist exploitation, war, especially against Muslims and “communists,” etc.

    To boil this down: what they see as a lie told by the MSM is actually the truth. What they see as truths told by Trump, their pastors, their media, their reps, are lies.

    I don’t think they’ve figured out anything. They’re just as wrong about the world, our politics, the media, etc. as they’ve always been.

    #130978
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    IOW:

    Could it be that some lefty pundits are projecting their own “discoveries” onto others? Wishful thinking on steroids?

    In my view, that’s at least in part what is happening. There isn’t an actual awakening on the right about anything, and they’ve never wanted the same kind of society we want. They don’t want equality, alternatives to capitalism, or even modest restrictions on capitalism to save the planet.

    I’m reading an excellent study of William Faulkner right now, focusing on the Civil War and race as it relates to his life and works. The Saddest Words, by Michael Gorra. Getting so much out of it, but this one section just seems to typify the right-wing mindset to a T. I doubt it was Gorra’s intention to spark my reaction, but it did.

    Summing up a section in Absalom, Absalom!

    One day young Sutpen was sent to the Big House with a message and went up to the front door, curious about what the place looked like inside. But a black butler blocked his path before he could say his piece, and told the boy never again to approach that way; people like him needed to go around back to the servant’s entrance, the slave’s entrance. The incident enraged him. “Sprung from a people whose houses didn’t have back doors,” he had never before encountered a social barrier between one white man and another, and for a moment he thought about shooting the planter who maintained it or beating the butler’s “balloon face.” Then he realized that what he really wanted was to be on the other side of that division, a man with a hammock of his own. For that he would need money and slaves, land and a house, children and “incidentally of course, a wife”; and so he went to the West Indies, where he had heard that poor boys might grow rich.

    #130984
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I;m not providing much in the way of analysis. Just blunt “IMO” reactions. But it really is my feeling that the desire to find some kind of underground affinity between the left and magas is not very compelling. Something similar happened before Trump’s election. I detected a bit of “how bad could he be” sentiment, and frankly I found it disturbing. My line at the time was that he is even worse than you can imagine. My point of reference is that in Maine, the governor was a pre-Trump Trump-like type (LePage). He was freaking gawdawful and was very damaging. That’s what we get with these people.

    That’s how I see it anyway. That’s just my own little vote.

    #130986
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I;m not providing much in the way of analysis. Just blunt “IMO” reactions. But it really is my feeling that the desire to find some kind of underground affinity between the left and magas is not very compelling. Something similar happened before Trump’s election. I detected a bit of “how bad could he be” sentiment, and frankly I found it disturbing. My line at the time was that he is even worse than you can imagine. My point of reference is that in Maine, the governor was a pre-Trump Trump-like type (LePage). He was freaking gawdawful and was very damaging. That’s what we get with these people.

    That’s how I see it anyway. That’s just my own little vote.

    I don’t think that there is an affinity between the left and maga, or that we are in any way “allied at heart.” My use of the term “common ground” was a poor choice.

    I am interested in how they put together their pieces of the puzzle, but I am not moved to applaud them. They do see that the system is corrupt, and that they are outsiders, but as Billy said, they completely lack awareness of the fact that they hold allegiance to the worst part of the system, and participate in it themselves.

    #130989
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I don’t think that there is an affinity between the left and maga, or that we are in any way “allied at heart.” My use of the term “common ground” was a poor choice.

    I am interested in how they put together their pieces of the puzzle, but I am not moved to applaud them. They do see that the system is corrupt, and that they are outsiders, but as Billy said, they completely lack awareness of the fact that they hold allegiance to the worst part of the system, and participate in it themselves.

    I didn’t think you were using any of those expressions, Zooey. I took the “common ground” plea from others — leftists with audiences, in my own poor phrasing, not any posters here.

    Key for me, especially in recent years, reading histories that bust up American myths:

    The right is adamantly opposed to them. All of them. Sometimes viciously so. As in, sending death threats to teachers, storming school board meetings, etc. . . . with lotsa backup in Republican controlled state legislatures, as you no doubt know first hand. Trump did several executive orders to try to crush any kind of honest reassessment of our history, or any attempt to tell the truth about where we’ve been as a nation, and how that impacts the present. The right is all on board with all of that. That presents an insurmountable gulf between left and right from the getgo.

    So any kind of acknowledgement of systematic corruption isn’t going to sync up with our view of that, and given their near universal belief that Trump cleaned up, or tried to clean up “the swamp,” it’s pretty clear they don’t understand the word itself.

    I think it’s safe to say that Trump was the most personally corrupt president in American history, and while the effects of his personal corruption may not rate as the worst, he no doubt planned to be Number One. IMO, a few isolated holdouts from his own party prevented the horrifically awful from being massively deadly and permanent, even beyond the 600K Covid deaths at his feet.

    Again, I’m glad you posted the article. It is important to know how Americans of all stripes see the world.

    #130990
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    I;m not providing much in the way of analysis. Just blunt “IMO” reactions. But it really is my feeling that the desire to find some kind of underground affinity between the left and magas is not very compelling. Something similar happened before Trump’s election. I detected a bit of “how bad could he be” sentiment, and frankly I found it disturbing. My line at the time was that he is even worse than you can imagine. My point of reference is that in Maine, the governor was a pre-Trump Trump-like type (LePage). He was freaking gawdawful and was very damaging. That’s what we get with these people.

    That’s how I see it anyway. That’s just my own little vote.

    I had a similar take, pre-election, though without the Maine-angle. Even back then, I was stunned that some thought Trump would be less of a warmonger than the Clinton Dems, given Trump’s bellicose rhetoric, his Nazi-like call to “shut down” all Muslims, his call for even greater military spending, and a much tougher “law and order” regime, etc. His extremist anti-immigration platform necessarily meant more wars, covert, and overt, a stepped up security-state involvement, a far more aggressive ICE, and so on. And he actually wondered out loud why the US couldn’t use nukes, even on Europe.

    I just couldn’t find a single issue — and I tried — where Trump would be even slightly less destructive than Clinton and the Dems, or where the GOP itself was.

    His presidency didn’t just confirm my fears. He went well beyond them.

    What is even more frightening, however, is that with his departure, the right has gotten even worse, more aggressive, more determined than ever before to make America a truly One Party State . . . and not in the old lefty formulation of the “Money Party” with two wings. Literally one party at the helm for as far as the eyes can see. And it seems obvious to me that the number one rationale for Trump’s attempted coup, and continued pushing of election lies is this:

    He thinks the only way he stays out of jail is if he has control of the DoJ and the courts. He desperately needs to get back in the White House, by any means necessary, to make that happen. And if he makes the impossible happen again, he won’t leave until he dies.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by Avatar photoBilly_T.
    #131005
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I think it’s important to pin down the lies they think they recognize. What exactly do they think they’ve been told that isn’t true? Are they the same lies we see? .

    =================

    Its a duopoly, right? Two corporate-capitalist parties.

    The Rightwingers see the Lies from the Duplicats (CNN, MSNBC, NPR etc)

    Do you think only half of the duopoly is doing the lying?

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