Leaked DNC emails shows collusion against Sanders

Bernie pretty much knew all of this while he was running. He blasted Wasserman-Shultz several times. She’s pathetic. I hope she loses her race to Tim Canova.

The two party system is unbelievably corrupt.

I feel sick about this election. Somehow the Republicans always nominates some nut and the Democrats nominate the status quo which is really becoming the old Republican party before it went batshit crazy.

So do I say screw it and just vote Jill Stein and hope enough people vote Green Party to give it a voice and perhaps at least start to build another option? The price of that is the unpredictable and possibly dangerous Donald Trump. I heard someone say–he’ll be less likely to start wars. And someone else said–unless you mean another Civil War here. And then there are the complications of world managing. Kick NATO aside? Do other countries suddenly scramble for nukes then? Does it become an even more unstable place? He already said he’d like Japan to have nukes.

And Hillary? Well–we know she won’t keep her hands clean. She’ll just talk like she knows what she’s doing. But the result is still more conflict and war.

Trump will tear up the Iran deal. What then?

Will Hillary’s wars be any more stable than Trump’s? Which will be worse? Will one be a lot worse? Or just a little? Or is there much difference at all?

What about Climate Change? Trump didn’t say one word about it. He does love coal apparently.

Hillary will almost certainly address it. But is there anything behind it–really? Anything significant?

Hillary picked Tim Kaine because, like Obama, she can’t change who she really is and what she believes. She can pretend for a primary. But after that she has to be Hillary. Of course she will make sure the TPP passes. If it looks any different at all, they may reword a paragraph or two. It won’t mean very much. They will tell you it does.

I was going to vote for her because–#NeverTrump.

But honestly, the big FU she just gave by picking Kaine does give me pause. Why shouldn’t she have to earn my vote?

If I lived in Utah, or New York, or California, or Alabama this would be a no-brainer. Those states are already decided. Trump or Clinton has already won them. I could easily make that 3rd party statement and sleep well.

Pennsylvania is a true battleground state. It could literally decide the election.

So I do take my one vote very seriously.

I truly may not know what I’ll do until I walk into the voting booth.

I’m going to take the devils advocate position here. Bernie ran as a democrat but he is an independent. Why would the DNC treat him any differently than another republican?

I believe in Elizabeth Warren when she says we have to get beyond the past and do everything necessary to insure that Trump does not become our President.

Zooey wrote:

He will beat Bush for vacation days.

But will he beat Obama who has set the record for vacation days?

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

I believe in Elizabeth Warren when she says we have to get beyond the past and do everything necessary to insure that Trump does not become our President.

I believe myself when I say that tolerating party corruption is never acceptable.

Agreed. Regardless of party.

zn wrote:

tolerating party corruption

Moving on in order to prevent that tv guy from becoming President is not the same as “tolerating party corruption”

Besides, corruption is a matter of political life regardless of whether its the Republican party, Democratic party, Libertarian party, Green party, Communist party, American Freedom party, American Socialist party, etc. No matter what political party one belongs to there will be those who use their power to accomplish their goals-often in nefarious ways. If I’m President and one of my principal goals is to feed the poor and cloth and house the homeless and to do it I have to…(you get the point).

waterfield wrote:

…If I’m President and one of my principal goals is to feed the poor and cloth and house the homeless and to do it I have to…(you get the point).

——–
And i would vote for that kind of robin-hood-‘corruption’ anyday.

But that aint what they do. The money is getting funneled ‘up’
not ‘down’.

Anyway, on a side note I was at my mom’s house today, and she has a TV
thats hooked up to cable, so i watched about 30 minutes of CNN covering
the Dem stuff. Good lord what a wasteland TV has become. Maybe it always was, i dunno.
Here’s an example of the news ‘coverage’ — CNN showed a clip of Donald making a speech before he invited his VP on stage. Then CNN showed a clip of Hillary and her VP walking out on the stage Together — and the discussion was all about which strategy was better.

They analyzed that important issue until i couldnt take it anymore.

Not a single second was devoted to any ‘policy’ discussion in that 30 minutes or so, I watched.

Vast Wasteland, tv is. Vast.

w
v

w
v

I take that back.

Trump is ignorant, but I retract the claim that he is proud of it. There is no evidence of that. There is evidence that he doesn’t care that he is ignorant, and that’s different. He is ignorant, and he doesn’t care enough to get informed. That is more accurate.

Zooey wrote:

bnw wrote:

Zooey wrote:

He will beat Bush for vacation days.

But will he beat Obama who has set the record for vacation days?

Oh, stop it.

I don’t like Obama, and I didn’t vote for him either time, but he has been more “responsible” as a president than George Bush was. George Bush is arguably the Worst President Ever, and that is a judgement I make without regard to my political preferences. And Trump will be as bad, or worse. He is ignorant, and he is proud of it.

That is your opinion. You will have the opportunity to see how wrong it is. Obama has been a disaster. He has acted stupidly and cowardly in his fomenting racial discord and his disastrous interventionist policy is on him alone. I suspect Trump will be more of a Theodor Roosevelt.

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

I take that back.

Trump is ignorant, but I retract the claim that he is proud of it. There is no evidence of that. There is evidence that he doesn’t care that he is ignorant, and that’s different. He is ignorant, and he doesn’t care enough to get informed. That is more accurate.

—————-

Well, i have not studied Trump. Like, at all. But my own limited unstudied sense is
he truly believes in what he is doing. I thought Bush did too. And Reagan. I mean, i do think all these weasels really believe their own words for the most part on the ECONOMIC stuff.

Not on the religious stuff necessarily. I think most of em pretend to believe in the Christian god and the fairy-tale stuff, but Economics — i think they believe their own rhetoric. I think.

Agree? Disagree? Dont care? Warner? Bulger?

w
v

No, not quite. Well, sort of.

My wife has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I’ve read a lot about it because I have to deal with it daily.

Narcissists tend to believe whatever they are saying at any given moment. And they can say something completely contradictory later, and believe THAT, and deny that they ever said the first thing. It happens All The Time.

Trump does that. He contradicts shit he said a month ago, and believes himself passionately both times. So Trump believes everything he says, yes. But his belief is a momentary belief. A belief of the present. If that makes sense. He has no overarching set of principles. No guidelines. No actual philosophical foundation. He believes whatever he feels like believing at the moment. Trust me on this. My wife is a narcissist, and I deal with this every day of my life, for 25 years now. I recognize the symptoms.

Zooey wrote:

bnw wrote:

Zooey wrote:

He will beat Bush for vacation days.

But will he beat Obama who has set the record for vacation days?

Oh, stop it.

I don’t like Obama, and I didn’t vote for him either time, but he has been more “responsible” as a president than George Bush was. George Bush is arguably the Worst President Ever, and that is a judgement I make without regard to my political preferences. And Trump will be as bad, or worse. He is ignorant, and he is proud of it.

I agree with that, Zooey.

There are many things I don’t like about Obama. But there are some things I do like. I think he’s extremely intelligent. He is not lost on issues. He is careful in his consideration. It isn’t his fault that Bush and Cheney gave him a steaming pile of crap. I don’t care how the right tries to rewrite history. I lived it. I saw it. I remember. THEY opened up this Pandora’s Box through their own recklessness.To blame Obama for withdrawing troops made to honor agreements made by Bush is silly. And frankly–you would have had to keep lots of forces there forever. And with lone wolves–it doesn’t much matter.

This is Bush’s Frankenstein. Not Obama’s. The right will relentlessly try to re-write this forever.

And when it comes to unrest here—shootings from the police or at the police, Obama has been very steady and carefully crafted his response.

The only thing an angry Donald Trump will unite after such tragedies are angry white guys. He will turn the noise up considerably. While Pence will run most things, Trump will still be Trump. He will have to have his face and name out there–playing at president.

I agree with Zooey–I believe–who said that Trump never expected to win this thing. I absolutely believe that. Even HE underestimated the stupidity of the American people. I have to wonder if he sits back some nights and thinks: this was too easy.

And I know there are many professionals on this board. I live a blue collar life. And while this is anecdotal I can tell you that I hear a lot of blue collar love for Trump. I am amazed that a rich kid–born rich–been a 1 percenter his whole life, has such credibility with blue collar workers. And if it isn’t a love of Trump for some it is a real hatred of Clinton for others. These union workers know all about NAFTA. Trump’s anti-trade rhetoric plays very well to them. They also love guns. They’re convinced Clinton will simply rip up the 2nd Amendment–as if it’s that easy. Guns are a HUGE issue for blue collar white guys.

Honestly–the Democrats had to do a couple of things to beat Bernie–and still he gave them fits. Bernie had a couple of problems. #1) He just could not make any ground with minority voters. This is critical in the Democratic primary. If you can’t do that it will be nearly impossible to get the nomination. He had some success later–but not nearly enough. Not close. Clinton had roots in the minority community for many years. That was very tough to overcome.

#2) He had to take on the people who make the rules. They gave no help and looked to rig the game against him at every chance.

This should have been impossible odds–and yet he still did better than anyone could have imagined because of his…..MESSAGE. It is a message the establishment rejects.

So here we are with the two most unpopular candidates in our lifetime and one of them will be the next president. I think it’s interesting that the Republican establishment tried very hard to dump Trump. They failed.

The Democrats tried very hard to dump Bernie. They succeeded. I guess that must say something about the difference between the bases of the party–I don’t know.

Democrats may be more team oriented. More loyal to their establishment candidates. I’ve been on boards where they hated Bernie. At times they sound more like Republicans. I’m not sure what the Democratic party even is anymore. If there is a battle for the soul of the party than the establishment won this round. That means either they crushed the rebellion and many Democrats will flee to the Green or register as Independents to fight from there—or there will be another battle next time. In any case–if they lose those progressives the party WILL get weaker. I’m not sure they get this–and if they do–I’m not sure they care. They have yet to pay the political price for it.

Zooey wrote:

wv wrote:

Zooey wrote:

I take that back.

Trump is ignorant, but I retract the claim that he is proud of it. There is no evidence of that. There is evidence that he doesn’t care that he is ignorant, and that’s different. He is ignorant, and he doesn’t care enough to get informed. That is more accurate.

—————-

Well, i have not studied Trump. Like, at all. But my own limited unstudied sense is
he truly believes in what he is doing. I thought Bush did too. And Reagan. I mean, i do think all these weasels really believe their own words for the most part on the ECONOMIC stuff.

Not on the religious stuff necessarily. I think most of em pretend to believe in the Christian god and the fairy-tale stuff, but Economics — i think they believe their own rhetoric. I think.

Agree? Disagree? Dont care? Warner? Bulger?

w
v

No, not quite. Well, sort of.

My wife has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I’ve read a lot about it because I have to deal with it daily.

Narcissists tend to believe whatever they are saying at any given moment. And they can say something completely contradictory later, and believe THAT, and deny that they ever said the first thing. It happens All The Time.

Trump does that. He contradicts shit he said a month ago, and believes himself passionately both times. So Trump believes everything he says, yes. But his belief is a momentary belief. A belief of the present. If that makes sense. He has no overarching set of principles. No guidelines. No actual philosophical foundation. He believes whatever he feels like believing at the moment. Trust me on this. My wife is a narcissist, and I deal with this every day of my life, for 25 years now. I recognize the symptoms.

—————-

Well that sounds about right. But i dunno.

Luckily we have the incorruptible US Congress,
and an informed public to reign him.

w
v

Real simple here is the difference with Clinton you will have the right to an abortion on your way to a nuclear exchange with Russia with Trump the white guys get an assault rifle of their choice on the road to Armageddon. Other than that which buffoon is chosen really does not matter at all. Clinton is the superior criminal but is more predictable.You know she’s going to sell you out.Trump is unpredictable like giving a chimp an assault rifle.

wv wrote:

Eternal Ramnation wrote:

Real simple here is the difference with Clinton you will have the right to an abortion on your way to a nuclear exchange with Russia with Trump the white guys get an assault rifle of their choice on the road to Armageddon. Other than that which buffoon is chosen really does not matter at all. Clinton is the superior criminal but is more predictable.You know she’s going to sell you out.Trump is unpredictable like giving a chimp an assault rifle.

————–
And yet millions and millions and millions of Americans love
either the chimp or the criminal — why is that?

w
v

I think much of that boils down to the belief in saviors. And it may be hard-wired, to one degree or another. The degree to which we (effectively) fight that, as individuals, is likely the combination of our socialization plus those hard-wired differences, etc. Were we raised in an environment encouraging us to question all assumptions? Did we kinda teach ourselves this — at least to some extent — along the way? And all things in between. But the acceptance or rejection of saviors is essential, IMO.

Beyond that, I find another current dynamic interesting. Left and right, I think Trump gets a certain benefit of the doubt that Clinton never will. I’m generalizing big time here, but I think this is basically true for many. We expect the worst case scenario for Clinton — at least a large portion of the time. With Trump, we’re often told he won’t be as bad as people say, and many buy this. They say to us, he won’t do the crazy things he tells us he’ll do on TV, because, well, he’s just an entertainer.

To me, this is a mistake. Take a look at his party. Take a look at the makeup of his supporters. Add all of it up. Add up GOP history, at least since roughly 1964/65, and especially with the advent of the tea party. If one sees Clinton as likely to do the worst, to me it makes no sense to believe Trump won’t match her, at least. It’s far more sensible, IMO, to view both candidates in that light — the worst case scenario light — while, perhaps, maybe, just maybe, hoping for the best, which is also very human thing to do.

Billy_T wrote:

Another aspect that interests me. The team-sport nature of politics. Right-wing evangelicals turn out in large numbers at the GOP convention. They have their obscenely anti-gay leaders and agendas. Cruz, Huckabee and Jindal, back when they were running, all shared the stage (at a conservative gathering) with a couple of pastors who literally wanted to “kill the gays.” Not metaphorically. Literally.

Fast forward to the GOP convention. Nothing has changed in the views of core Republicans from that gathering. They haven’t suddenly become enlightened about sexual minorities. Yet, when Peter Thiel stood on stage and said he was proud to be gay, the reports say the crowd cheered for him, and they didn’t boo Trump when he talked about “protecting LGBTQ people.” Though, of course, the way he pronounced the letters was kinda creepy, and who knows if it was all dog whistle. But they at least didn’t boo him or Thiel.

Teams. Tribes. My side. Your side. If it’s my team, the same exact thing I denounced a moment ago is now suddenly fine.

We humans are strange cats.

Democrats are just as guilty of the TEAM mentality. Sad, really. I have had posts removed from Democratic Underground because I dared question DWS and the DNC. You basically aren’t allowed to post anything negative about the Democrats right now. They obviously want to pretend that there is party unity.

It doesn’t help. Hillary has no clue when she picks a Tim Kaine for VP. This party is deaf to the screams of anti-establishment coming from the nation. They insist on ramming Mrs. Establishment down our throats and then she picks Mr. Establishment as a running mate.

They are banking on Trump imploding. They still have the Rahm Emmanuel mindset to tell progressives to sit down and shut up and let the adults handle things.

Hillary will still probably win.

But she may not. This is not set in stone.

And if she loses Bernie will be a bigger villain than Nader ever was. They still won’t get it. This party needs to change and perhaps read Thomas Frank’s “Listen Liberal” to get a clue. Otherwise it may soon be irrelevant.