Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Rams Huddle › Keenum– concussion
- This topic has 18 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 11 months ago by
nittany ram.
-
AuthorPosts
-
November 22, 2015 at 7:09 pm #34560
znModeratorMylesASimmons
Got word in locker room Rams QB Case Keenum has been diagnosed with a concussion.
November 22, 2015 at 7:11 pm #34561znModeratorMylesASimmons
Got word in locker room Rams QB Case Keenum has been diagnosed with a concussion.
==
ATC spotter failed to call medical timeout to remove Case Keenum
Mike Florio
This year, the NFL for the first time gave ATC spotters the power to stop play in order to remove from the field players potentially suffering from concussions. It’s a great idea in theory; in practice, it requires the spotter to be willing to slam on the brakes at a key moment in the action.
Late in Sunday’s game between the Rams and Ravens, the back of St. Louis quarterback Case Keenum’s head slammed against the ground during a late drive in a tie game. Keen immediately was in clear distress, struggling to get up.
But the game continued with Keenum at quarterback, without the Rams or the officials or the ATC spotter doing anything to get him off the field.
It’s possible that ATC spotter wasn’t paying attention. It’s more possible that the ATC spotter was reluctant to yank Keenum off the field during crunch time.
Regardless, the ATC spotter failed to protect a player who needed to be protected from himself. Keenum was never going to tap out voluntarily. In moments like that, the ATC spotter is there for one purpose: To tap out the player involuntarily.
November 22, 2015 at 11:47 pm #34571znModeratorHandling of Keenum’s concussion raises questions about NFL policy
Sean Wagner-McGough
At the tail-end of the Rams’ 16-13 loss to the Ravens on Sunday, quarterback Case Keenum was concussed. With just over a minute remaining in a tied game, Keenum was thrown to the turf by a Ravens’ defender.
In what was completely clear to anyone with a TV and a set of eyes, Keenum’s head bounced violently off the turf.
Keenum’s pain was also clear. He immediately grabbed his head. He squirmed on the ground. Eventually, he got up with the help of his teammates.
But the game didn’t stop. While the officials sorted out a flag, Keenum spoke to a member of the Rams’ staff on the field. Thirty seconds later, he was back in the huddle and dropping back to pass. Two plays after the sack, Keenum fumbled and the Ravens won the game on a last-second field goal.
After the game, reporters discovered that Keenum was diagnosed with a concussion, which raises questions: Why wasn’t the game stopped? Why didn’t Keenum come out of the game? Even if the Rams official spoke with Keenum and thought that he was fine, why didn’t an NFL concussion spotter stop the game so Keenum could be examined off the field? Could a concussion test really be administered in 30 seconds? Did the Rams even give Keenum a concussion test?
Earlier this month, Eagles defensive back Malcolm Jenkins revealed that he played during a game with a concussion and hid it from the medical staff. Because the hit that caused Jenkins’ concussion was inconspicuous, nobody knew that Jenkins was concussed. The onus was on Jenkins to tell a trainer, but he didn’t. Like Keenum’s concussion, it’s scary to consider that Jenkins played football with a brain injury.
But in this case, Keenum’s head injury wasn’t hidden, it was clear as day. As Keenum withered around in pain, someone — a Rams’ trainer, an official, a concussion spotter, a teammate — had to have spotted that something could be wrong with player who just had his helmet slammed off the turf.
Nobody stopped the game. The game continued. And just moments later, Keenum took a snap and fired an incomplete pass toward Wes Welker.
November 23, 2015 at 7:01 am #34578
canadaramParticipantSure made wonder how they have the spotter do his/her job. Does this person sit up in a booth with binoculars? Are they on the sideline? There was a Rams game early in the season where a timeout was called by the ATC spotter and to me the injury was far less obvious. It’s a big area that the spotter has to cover with his or her eyes. So I can see how some instances could go unnoticed. Having the benefit of a tv camera pointed right at Keenum made yesterday’s example obvious for viewers. Still, given Case’s reaction it’s surprising that he stayed out there, or was allowed to stay out there.
November 23, 2015 at 10:44 am #34583
wvParticipantSure made wonder how they have the spotter do his/her job. Does this person sit up in a booth with binoculars? Are they on the sideline? There was a Rams game early in the season where a timeout was called by the ATC spotter and to me the injury was far less obvious. It’s a big area that the spotter has to cover with his or her eyes. So I can see how some instances could go unnoticed. Having the benefit of a tv camera pointed right at Keenum made yesterday’s example obvious for viewers. Still, given Case’s reaction it’s surprising that he stayed out there, or was allowed to stay out there.
Was it Greg Robinson the pass-rusher zoomed past?
Or was it someone else who got Keenum’s brain scrambled?w
vNovember 23, 2015 at 11:00 am #34585
PA RamParticipantSure made wonder how they have the spotter do his/her job. Does this person sit up in a booth with binoculars? Are they on the sideline? There was a Rams game early in the season where a timeout was called by the ATC spotter and to me the injury was far less obvious. It’s a big area that the spotter has to cover with his or her eyes. So I can see how some instances could go unnoticed. Having the benefit of a tv camera pointed right at Keenum made yesterday’s example obvious for viewers. Still, given Case’s reaction it’s surprising that he stayed out there, or was allowed to stay out there.
Was it Greg Robinson the pass-rusher zoomed past?
Or was it someone else who got Keenum’s brain scrambled?w
vBarnes and Wichmann were the guilty parties on Keenum’s concussion.
Robinson was burned a couple plays later when Keenum was stripped.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
November 23, 2015 at 12:17 pm #34590
Eternal RamnationParticipantFlacco’s out for the season with ACL and likely more, the QB’s adding up this season.
November 23, 2015 at 4:18 pm #34606
nittany ramModeratorFisher is certainly having his worst week since he’s been HC of the Rams. He’s under fire for keeping Keenum in the game…
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/11/23/9782026/st-louis-rams-jeff-fisher-case-keenum-concussion
November 23, 2015 at 4:33 pm #34607wvParticipantFisher is certainly having his worst week since he’s been HC of the Rams. He’s under fire for keeping Keenum in the game…
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/11/23/9782026/st-louis-rams-jeff-fisher-case-keenum-concussion
Enh. I think Fisher has a long record of handling
injured players pretty carefully. Seems like he
always brings them along slowly and gives them
plenty of time to recover.This situation is easy to second-guess after
slow motion replays etc. I just dont
put this on Fisher.w
vNovember 23, 2015 at 4:56 pm #34608nittany ramModeratorFisher is certainly having his worst week since he’s been HC of the Rams. He’s under fire for keeping Keenum in the game…
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/11/23/9782026/st-louis-rams-jeff-fisher-case-keenum-concussion
Enh. I think Fisher has a long record of handling
injured players pretty carefully. Seems like he
always brings them along slowly and gives them
plenty of time to recover.This situation is easy to second-guess after
slow motion replays etc. I just dont
put this on Fisher.w
vIf you watch the video it’s easy to see that Keenum was knocked silly. He couldn’t even get up on his own. Although they don’t show it in the video I think he staggered a bit even after he was on his feet. I don’t know how this got missed. Many people are at fault for allowing Keenum to continue to play but certainly Fisher bears some responsibility.
November 25, 2015 at 1:35 am #34675znModeratorIf you watch the video it’s easy to see that Keenum was knocked silly. He couldn’t even get up on his own. Although they don’t show it in the video I think he staggered a bit even after he was on his feet. I don’t know how this got missed. Many people are at fault for allowing Keenum to continue to play but certainly Fisher bears some responsibility.
This is all simple. They saw a qb hit. We on tv can see more than the sideline but coaches can’t see it all. Foles knew he went down so he warms up. The trainer goes out and Keenum says he’s fine. The league official in the booth did apparently see his head hit but he sees the Rams trainer is out there and thinks it’s covered.
IMO? There’s no story here. I don’t think anyone with the Rams “bears some responsibility.” I think this is a non-story that has gotten kind of quasi-sensationalized by the tv view. The tv view includes close-ups and is not related in the least to what the sideline sees.
November 25, 2015 at 1:36 am #34676znModeratorReynolds: “Case said, I need a minute, and then he was all right.”
Jim Thomas
Rams offensive lineman Garrett Reynolds makes it a point to help teammates during times of need. Sometimes it’s helping up a running back who went down in a pile.
Or aiding a wide receiver who got roughed up on a route downfield (as was the case with Bradley Marquez against Baltimore).
Or a quarterback who just got concussed. Reynolds, a seventh-year pro in his first season with the Rams, was first on the scene when quarterback Case Keenum went down late in the fourth quarter of Sunday’s 16-13 loss to the Ravens.
“He put his hand out,” Reynolds said. “And just like any other time, any time your buddy puts his hand out, you try to (help). I thought he was just gonna hop up.”
But as Reynolds started to pull up Keenum from the turf at M&T Bank Stadium, the quarterback stayed down.
“I knew something was a little off,” Reynolds said. “He said, ‘I need a minute,’ and then he was all right.
“Once he got back in the huddle, he called the play crisp as ever, just like always. He just seemed to be regular old Case.”
Reynolds said it’s commonplace over the course of the game and a season for players to take a shot in some fashion and need a second to regroup, be it taking a shot to the leg, or the shoulder, getting the wind knocked out, or as in the case of Keenum having your head hit the turf.
“We’re so used to saying: ‘You good? Oh yeah. Let’s go,’” Reynolds said.
If Keenum had been struggling making the plays calls, or otherwise showed signs of distress in the huddle, Reynolds said, “We would’ve sent him out. If you’re that messed up, somebody knows. But there’s been times in football, like with Case where you might need a second (to regroup).
“Sometimes you get hit and it hurts. That’s on any part of your body. You say, ‘hey give me a second’ and you’re all right.”
Earlier in the game, Reynolds came to the rescue when Marquez took a late hit from Baltimore linebacker C.J. Mosley, but was penalized for unnecessary roughness for shoving Mosley off of Marquez.
“It’s football,” Reynolds said. “Stuff like that’s gonna happen. But I’ve gotta be smarter than that for the team. You see a buddy and you want to take care of him.”
Mosley also was flagged for roughness, and earlier on the same play, wide receiver Kenny Britt was flagged for an illegal block above the waist. So because of offsetting penalties, a 31-yard gain by Marquez to the Baltimore 18 was nullified, effectively killing a potential Rams scoring drive.
But back to Keenum. Reynolds’ thoughts aside, the slow-motion television replays of Keenum’s head hitting the turf, Keenum holding his head from behind his helmet, and then being slow to initially get up, set off a firestorm of sorts in NFL circles.
Rams coach Jeff Fisher said Monday he was unaware of the concussion until after Sunday’s game and even after Fisher met with the media postgame. Some observers found that hard to believe.
On Tuesday, Keenum was held out of practice as he works his way through the league-mandated concussion protocol of tests and examinations. Nick Foles got the work with the starting offense.
“Case was in the building,” Fisher said. “He met, looked at a lot of tape. Has not been cleared for any activity (Tuesday), but we’re hopeful (Wednesday) that he’ll be ready to do some things outside. He’s feeling pretty good actually.”
Fisher said Keenum has not experienced any setbacks.
“He’s fine,” Fisher said. “He just hasn’t been cleared for physical activity. He’s in the protocol, and that’s typically the way things work on Tuesday.”
In other words, no practice.
“So he’ll go through some more testing (Wednesday) and we’re hopeful that he’ll be released for activity tomorrow,” Fisher said.
Since Keenum did not practice Tuesday, per Rams policy he was not made available to the media. Fisher re-iterated that if Keenum does not pass the concussion protocol, Foles would start Sunday in Cincinnati. And if that’s the case, as expected, Fisher said rookie Sean Mannion would be elevated to the No. 2 spot.
Because of the Keenum situation, a league-organized conference call took place early Tuesday evening to review concussion protocol with team doctors and head athletic trainers of all 32 teams.
The call was led by Dr. Hunt Batjer, co-chair of the NFL head, neck and spine committee, as well as NFL chief medical advisor Dr. Betsy Nabel, and Dr. Thom Mayer of the NFL Players Association. Also taking part was Dr. Robert Heyer, president of the NFL Physicians Society.
“It’s an important issue,” said Fisher, now knee-deep in preparation for the Bengals. “It’s really a serious issue and the league’s taking it very seriously, and you can understand why.
“The league’s gathering information, we’re looking at the system under which we’re operating right now to see if there’s anything we can do to where we avoid that kind of situation that happened to Case.”
The solution seems simple: give the independent press box spotter more authority to stop the game for a medical timeout. And instruct the spotter to always err on the side of caution.
When asked if there were any suggestions he had to adjust game day concussion protocol, Fisher said, “I can’t go there. There’s too many entities right now that are discussing their opinions and exactly what happened.”
November 27, 2015 at 2:40 pm #34771znModeratorNFL still examining concussion protocols
Nick Wagoner, ESPN Staff Writer
EARTH CITY, Mo. — In the wake of the concussion St. Louis Rams quarterback Case Keenum suffered last week against the Baltimore Ravens and the circumstances under which he stayed in the game, the NFL held a conference call on Tuesday evening to discuss its concussion protocol.
According to a news release from the league, the call included the head athletic trainers for all 32 NFL teams as well as NFLPA Medical Director Dr. Thom Mayer, NFL Chief Medical Advisor Dr. Betsy Nabel, Head, Neck & Spine Committee Co-Chairman Dr. Hunt Batjer, NFL Physicians Society President Dr. Robert Heyer of the Carolina Panthers, and PFATS President Rick Burkholder of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Case Keenum practiced on Wednesday and Jeff Fisher is hopeful that he’ll be able to do enough this week to start against the Bengals this weekend. AP Photo/Nick Wass
But while the league statement revealed those participating in the call, it didn’t offer much information on progress toward a solution.“During the call, the team medical staffs discussed the events that led to the failure to remove St. Louis Rams quarterback Case Keenum from Sunday’s game, and reviewed the proper implementation of the league’s concussion protocols to ensure that players are removed from the field for a medical evaluation as required by the protocols,” the statement said. “Medical experts from the league and the Players Association will continue to review the protocols and make improvements as necessary to protect the health and safety of NFL players, including consideration of discipline for future violations of the protocols.”
Keenum returned to practice Wednesday on a limited basis and, according to coach Jeff Fisher, there’s hope that he’ll be able to do even more on Friday and start Sunday against the Cincinnati Bengals.
Fisher has declined to offer any ideas or solutions to help the process but has repeatedly stressed that he believes it’s important to get it right so that a situation like Keenum’s, where he played two more snaps after suffering the concussion, doesn’t happen again.
“Well again, the league and all the entities involved are working to ensure that this doesn’t happen again,” Fisher said. “The NFL, the Head, Neck and Spine Committee, the Players’ Association, the trainers and everybody’s discussed it. We had a very candid, open discussion and we’re working to ensure that we’ve got our bases covered right now. Obviously, things slipped through the cracks in our game with Case. As I said on Monday, don’t want to allow a player to stay in the game when those situations appear to be obvious. So, the league is going to continue to talk about it and we’re going to get it resolved one way or another. That would also include the officiating department.”
December 1, 2015 at 10:13 pm #34999znModeratorhttp://theramshuddle.com/topic/jt-chat-121/
If the NFL is serious about concussions and not just paying lip service to the issue, Why didn’t they do anything in regards to the Case Keenum situation?
by Studebaker 2:29 PM
JT: What would you have them do? Fines? Suspensions? Firing the press box observer? The circumstances weren’t as obvious as they appeared on television replay _ in slow motion. I think the simplest answer is to give the press box trainer more power. Call the medical timeout, and get the quarterback over to the neutral sideline doctor to take a look at the player. The whole idea of this is to take the decision-making on checking out the player out of the hands of the teams involved, isn’t it?
December 5, 2015 at 1:34 am #35120znModeratorRams still taking heat for handling of Keenum concussion
Jim Thomas
The after-effects of Case Keenum’s concussion against Baltimore on Nov. 22 have lingered to the point where the Rams quarterback will miss his second consecutive start.
Meanwhile, the controversy also lingers over why Keenum was allowed to finish out the Rams’ final two offensive plays in that contest after hitting his head on the turf at Baltimore’s M&T Bank Stadium on a sack.
Earlier this week, NFL Players Association president Eric Winston told USA Today that he wanted the NFL to reconsider its decision not to issue any fines or discipline for the Rams’ handling of the Keenum concussion.
Winston, a nine-year veteran offensive tackle now with Cincinnati, called the Rams’ handling of the situation a “complete failure to adhere to the (concussion) protocol.”
Winston continued: “Show me someone that says, ‘No, the Rams did exactly the right thing.’ They didn’t. Everybody knows they didn’t. So there has to be discipline, right? Because when a player doesn’t do something that he’s supposed to do, he gets fined for that when it comes to health and safety.”
Fisher said he was unaware that Keenum had been diagnosed with concussion symptoms until after the Rams’ 16-13 loss to the Ravens. Fisher saw Keenum go down but said he was in game-management mode and didn’t realize the quarterback was slow to get up.
On Thursday, Fisher was asked about Winston’s comments and seemed almost eager to reply.
“I’ll say this, I have great respect for Eric as a player, and also in the position that he currently holds within the union — the Players Association,” Fisher said. “It’s awfully difficult for an active player, you know, to stay involved — and how should I say this? — understand everything that went on.
“I don’t think Eric has all of the facts. The facts were all discussed with the league, with the union. I mean, I can see his position. His position is to protect players. But his position’s no different than mine, nor Reggie (Scott)’s, or anybody else associated with the league.”
Scott is the Rams’ head athletic trainer. He briefly checked out Keenum after the play, while referee Tony Corrente’s crew was administering a penalty that occurred on the play. But the independent injury spotter at press box level never called for a medical timeout to check out Keenum on the sideline, probably because Scott came out on the field.
“It’s very unlikely that anybody is going to be penalized,” Fisher continued. “As I said two weeks ago (after the Keenum incident) … we’re trying to close the loophole to make sure that that doesn’t happen again.”
Although the NFL will consider discipline for future violations of concussion protocol, the league already has let it be known there will be no club discipline in the Keenum matter.
A conference call involving athletic trainers and team physicians from all 32 teams was held last week to discuss what went wrong with the concussion protocol in the Baltimore game, and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.
Medical experts from the league and the players association are continuing to review the issue.
More criticism was directed at the Rams, and at Fisher in particular, on the topic this week. Former NFL player and current ESPN analyst Mark Schlereth said in a radio appearance that it was a “bold-faced lie” for Fisher to say he didn’t realize Keenum was injured because he was in game-management mode.
Fisher said he spoke with Schlereth on Thursday to clear the air.
“He apologized to me,” Fisher said. “Again, Mark didn’t have all of the facts. Those things happen. That’s the world we live in right now.
“When you have the facts and you understand what happened, everything that led up to that incident — and any other incident for that matter — unless you’ve got all the facts, you should probably keep your mouth shut. I think Mark’s one of the best, so we had a really good conversation.”
Fisher said he initiated the dialogue with Schlereth when he learned about his remarks.
“Would you call somebody if they called you a liar?” Fisher said. “Probably. So I did. I have great respect for Mark and we got it resolved, no problem.”
As for Keenum, he has not been made available to reporters while he’s still under the concussion protocol. He has gotten some practice repetitions with the scout team this week, running Arizona plays for the benefit of the Rams’ first-team defense.
The Rams play the Cardinals in a noon kickoff Sunday at the Edward Jones Dome.
But Keenum did not get any reps with the first-team offense this week while still under the concussion protocol. For that reason, Fisher decided to go with Nick Foles at quarterback against the Big Red. And that won’t change even if Keenum says Saturday that he feels great and clears the protocol.
Although unlikely, if that’s the case Saturday, Keenum will be the team’s No. 2 QB and dress for the Arizona game. Otherwise, rookie Sean Mannion will be No. 2 behind Foles for the second week in a row, and Keenum once again will be a game-day inactive.
December 5, 2015 at 9:35 am #35125wvParticipant“….Schlereth said in a radio appearance that it was a “bold-faced lie” for Fisher to say he didn’t realize Keenum was injured because he was in game-management mode.
Fisher said he spoke with Schlereth on Thursday to clear the air.
“He apologized to me,” Fisher said. “Again, Mark didn’t have all of the facts. Those things happen. That’s the world we live in right now…..”
—————Yeah, I thought Schlereth was out of line
when he was going of about the Keenum thing.No tv-celebrity can possibly know what angle
Fisher had on that play, and whether he was blocked
from seeing Keenum’s head hit the ground, etc, and so forth.This is a tricky issue — are the powers-that-bee gonna stop
the game and pull a player every time there’s a hard hit now?w
vDecember 5, 2015 at 9:52 am #35127znModeratorre the powers-that-bee gonna stop
the game and pull a player every time there’s a hard hit now?IF they have reason to believe he has a possible concussion…yes.
Regardless of the fall out.
December 5, 2015 at 2:06 pm #35129wvParticipantre the powers-that-bee gonna stop
the game and pull a player every time there’s a hard hit now?IF they have reason to believe he has a possible concussion…yes.
Regardless of the fall out.
Brady is driving the Pats downfield in Overtime in the Super Bowl.
He takes a hard hit. Who the hell knows if he has a Concussion.
He says he’s fine — but a guy in a booth pulls him.
His back-up throws an INT.What would you call that?
w
vDecember 5, 2015 at 2:41 pm #35132nittany ramModeratorBrady is driving the Pats downfield in Overtime in the Super Bowl.
He takes a hard hit. Who the hell knows if he has a Concussion.
He says he’s fine — but a guy in a booth pulls him.
His back-up throws an INT.What would you call that?
w
vPoetic justice.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
