Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Kaepernick is righter than you know-the national anthem celebrates slavery
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August 29, 2016 at 4:24 pm #51856nittany ramModeratorAugust 29, 2016 at 5:00 pm #51858ZooeyModerator
I did not know that.
That is interesting, and certainly a reason to question the appropriateness of the Star-Spangled Banner as national anthem.
Of course, that isn’t what CK was protesting.
Most of the debate surrounding his sitting seems to be centered on whether it was “appropriate” or “effective.” I am not seeing much on the issue he was protesting. And although I haven’t tracked many comments on this either on the radio or online, there has been a predictable “How dare he slight the military men and women who risk and sacrifice their lives to protect his freedom?” as if the flag is a primarily a military symbol. I think THAT perspective is one worth questioning in itself.
The fact is that the flag is used primarily to shut people up in this country.
August 29, 2016 at 5:35 pm #51859nittany ramModeratorYeah, the flag is a brick wall that blocks all meaningful discourse. If someone appears to disrespect the flag then nothing else matters. It’s the one line that can’t be crossed. “I don’t care if the streets run red with the blood of your unarmed people gunned down by cops, you better pay this colored piece of fabric its due respect.”
So Kaepernick probably did his cause more harm than good. For change to happen he needs to get the people on his side. But the people he needs on his side are the same people who are most offended by his stance. Bottom line he’s about as effective an activist as he is a pocket passer.
You won’t win hearts and minds by antagonizing the hearts and minds you’re trying to win. It’s like when BLM blocks a freeway. Instead of rallying support they just make people hate them. Whether their cause is just or not isn’t even a consideration at that point. They inconvenienced people. They pissed people off. Game off.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by nittany ram.
August 29, 2016 at 7:14 pm #51861ZooeyModeratorYeah, I don’t know.
I wonder whether the people who are truly pissed off about this would be susceptible to persuasion in other ways anyway. And what are the alternatives?
What he has achieved is 3 or 4 days of people talking and writing about it, including the interesting piece that anchors this thread. That would not have been written if Kap stood up last weekend. Right?
It is true he can’t control the conversation once it begins, or even keep it focused on the issue he wants addressed (all kinds of digressions are going to crop up). But some people are talking about relevant aspects of this rather than just setting jerseys on fire and trolling the internet.
He needs to follow it up.
But, frankly, I don’t know what the cure is. It seems to me that police ought to be better trained. I’ve seen a video comparing training here versus Norway, and it’s kind of an eye-opener. And they should be trained to look for “tells” rather than to racially profile. Simulations can teach them that.
And we need to put more money are resources into minority communities, balance the way education is financed, and so on.
But none of that has any chance of happening without provocation of some kind. Had CK stood last weekend, this thread would not exist.
August 29, 2016 at 8:35 pm #51871Billy_TParticipantThanks for that article, Nittany.
I grew up in Maryland. We weren’t taught the truth about Key either. I had to learn about that on my own, later in life.
Don’t really know how to express this well, and it’s gonna come out an awkward mess of sorts. But, frankly, it’s a wonder any black athlete stands for the SBB. Ever. It basically celebrates the defeat of human beings who sought an escape from slavery, and the writer owned slaves and was anti-abolition his entire life, from what I’ve read. I think Kap was well within his “rights” to speak out about it. More public figures should, IMO. Of course, it’s not for me to say — which is where I feel the awkwardness most.
Related: I can’t stand hearing or reading nonsense like this: “He should be grateful he gets to live in America, where he is free to pursue his dreams!! In no other country but America could he do that!!!”
Bullshit. Too many knuckle-dragging, know-nothings seem to actually believe America stands alone in the world when it comes to “freedoms”. Hell, he could pursue his athletic dreams in dozens of countries, many of them granting far more “freedoms” than he has here — especially in Europe, and especially in the Scandinavian countries.
Bottom line for me: We need to axe the national anthem and bring down every single confederate flag existing on public grounds. I know those are just symbols, and we need radical, substantial change in policy far more. But it’s a good start.
August 29, 2016 at 8:41 pm #51872Billy_TParticipantFound this via da google:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/art/seven-facts-star-spangled-banner/
In 1861, Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. added a verse. Despite using the words “the land of the free,” Francis Scott Key had been a slave owner, and members of the Confederate Army wanted to claim his anthem. Holmes, an influential writer from Boston, wrote new lyrics advocating that American slaves be unchained. Holmes’ addition now appears in most official publications of the lyrics.
August 30, 2016 at 8:16 am #51884wvParticipantInteresting. Thanks Cappy.
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vAugust 30, 2016 at 9:03 am #51888nittany ramModeratorYeah, I don’t know.
Me neither.
But none of that has any chance of happening without provocation of some kind. Had CK stood last weekend, this thread would not exist.
True, but this thread is comprised of people who I assume stand on the side of BLM. We’re talking about it. But I don’t see Kaepernick’s stance (or lack of it 😉 ) causing much discussion among the people who aren’t sure or who are against BLM out in the real world. Not the discussion that should happen anyway. But, who knows, you could be right.
Ultimately nothing’s gonna change though.
Our attitudes about law enforcement (and incarceration) are midieval. You’re right about Norway. Their models of policing the public and rehabilitating prisoners are far superior to ours. They have a 20% recidivism rate compared to our 76%.
August 30, 2016 at 1:14 pm #51902nittany ramModeratorSean Hannity’s predictably stupid reaction to Kaepernick…
August 30, 2016 at 2:39 pm #51907NewMexicoRamParticipantAnd then, there is historical evidence out there that ties these lines in the 3rd verse to the British habit of using hired mercenaries and captured American soldiers who were forced to work on the British behalf.
Nonetheless, even if the lyrics are meant in bigotry (it is known that FS Key owned slaves), it is clear that 99.9% of Americans don’t even know that 3rd verse and the vast majority would never sing them. Trying to tie past viewpoints to current understanding doesn’t seem fair to people who are alive today. Those should remain with the dead.
August 30, 2016 at 3:55 pm #51913ZooeyModeratorAnd then, there is historical evidence out there that ties these lines in the 3rd verse to the British habit of using hired mercenaries and captured American soldiers who were forced to work on the British behalf.
Nonetheless, even if the lyrics are meant in bigotry (it is known that FS Key owned slaves), it is clear that 99.9% of Americans don’t even know that 3rd verse and the vast majority would never sing them. Trying to tie past viewpoints to current understanding doesn’t seem fair to people who are alive today. Those should remain with the dead.
You may have a point, but if you were black, and accustomed to being treated with suspicion, you would probably see those lines as a reminder that your country sees you as a secondary citizen. Right?
And it is the National Anthem. It’s in the National Anthem. It’s not just another song. It’s the song the country stands up for, removes their hats for, and places their hands over their hearts for.
August 30, 2016 at 6:26 pm #51918Billy_TParticipantI think the song should be replaced. It celebrates our racist past, and it points to yet another time when words like “freedom” need to be footnoted. Let’s find a song that doesn’t need the footnotes.
As in, whenever people spout off about “freedom and liberty,” we should always ask “For whom?” When it comes to economics, social policy, education, health care — anything and everything. Freedom and liberty for whom?
Too often in American history, and right now, in the American present, freedom and liberty for one meant/means chains for another. In real terms.
And, yes, there are bigger problems in the world than the national anthem. But it’s a problem we could easily fix. Not so many of those these days. Change it. Find a song that speaks to our diversity, without celebrating slavery, or racism, or any kind of oppression of others, or “the Other.” Find a song that everyone can love, without any burden or sense of “bad faith” or alienation.
The nation should choose this song, together. It shouldn’t have been chosen for us.
August 30, 2016 at 7:15 pm #51921bnwBlockedAnd then, there is historical evidence out there that ties these lines in the 3rd verse to the British habit of using hired mercenaries and captured American soldiers who were forced to work on the British behalf.
Nonetheless, even if the lyrics are meant in bigotry (it is known that FS Key owned slaves), it is clear that 99.9% of Americans don’t even know that 3rd verse and the vast majority would never sing them. Trying to tie past viewpoints to current understanding doesn’t seem fair to people who are alive today. Those should remain with the dead.
Yes, the US fought the War of 1812 due in great part to the British not respecting our sovereignty throughout the world by the actions of their press gangs and harassment of US flagged shipping.
I agree that saddling people with the actions of those passed long ago is a disservice and a scam.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
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